I believe that Form of Mist needs an errata (LSJ)

>From my point of view the text of the sup. Form of Mist should be as follows. Strike: combat ends, and if this vampire is the acting minion, once during each action he may burn 1 blood after combat ends to continue the action at +1 stealth as if unblocked. why the change? because I believe that there must be a clarification between the "combat end" part and the "action modifier" part. why? because as a combat card (S:CE) form of mist superior should be able to be played as many times as necesary during a combat, BUT the action modifier part is what must be played only once per action. because I find stupid that things like that you cannot play FoM at superior if you don't need the stealth, or that FoM sup can be played once per action. Have you ever have readed the text of the card "if this vampire is acting, he MAY burn 1 blood" it's not mandatory. It's the modifier wich needs restriction, not the Strke: combat ends. And based on card text doing a strike: combat ends with sup. FoM does not implicate that you must burn 1 blood to continue the action, it gives you the ALTERNATIVE of doing it or not, depending of what suits you better in a given combat. I expect you can find correct my point, because I believe there's a need for such clarification

ThE OnLy VipeR wrote: >>From my point of view the text of the sup. Form of Mist should be as > follows. > > Strike: combat ends, and if this vampire is the acting minion, once > during each action he may burn 1 blood after combat ends to continue > the action at +1 stealth as if unblocked. > > why the change? because I believe that there must be a clarification > between the "combat end" part and the "action modifier" part. > > why? because as a combat card (S:CE) form of mist superior should be > able to be played as many times as necesary during a combat, BUT the > action modifier part is what must be played only once per action. I do not believe Form of Mist is too weak as it is, and even if so, it wouldn't rise to the level of needing errata. -- LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply) Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

I'm not talking about weakness, but proper usage of the rules, sup FoM is a combat card with an OPTIONAL use as a modifier, so it should be able to be used as combat end more tan once per action as any other combat card, I do not see the point in doing such a discrimination

[ quoted text not captured ] Form of Mist is never an action modifier. http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=Cardlist_F#Form_of_Mist - Ben Peal

ThE OnLy VipeR wrote: > I'm not talking about weakness, but proper usage of the rules, sup FoM > is a combat card with an OPTIONAL use as a modifier, so it should be > able to be used as combat end more than once per action as any other > combat card, I do not see the point in doing such a discrimination FoM superior could be used during an action more than one time, if you didn't choose to pay one blood to continue the action at +1 stealth. The "you may..." is the part you can do only one time per action. Please read the card and the text correctly, tehre is no need of errata, according to your question, because the card already does what you want. Bye. Kamel.

kamel...@yvelines.pref.gouv.fr wrote: > FoM superior could be used during an action more than one time, if you > didn't choose to pay one blood to continue the action at +1 stealth. > The "you may..." is the part you can do only one time per action. No. Card text: "A vampire may play only one Form of Mist at superior each action." [ quoted text not captured ]

Mea culpa. I have read the text "that should be" according to 'Vyper as the text "that is". Thanks, LJS for the correction, I will make atonement all night long. BTW, Vyper, FoM is sufficiently powerful to let that text like this : if not, why continue to play Earth meld ? And remember becoming of Ennoïa, who have condemns Earth meld to stay at home (it's a joke). Kamel.

as LSJ points out, that's exactly the part of the text that needs to be changed, because it is being tied to the burn 1 blood effect wich occurs AFTER combat ends. that's why there must be a distinction between the S:CE and the burn 1 blood effect. I tell you it's a Hell that besides being able to use it only once during MY actions, the same applies when OTHER is acting and I am reacting!!. So please let's get serious here, there's a problem with the card text that needs to be fixed, at least that LSJ says that the "once per action" part was intentionally added to the S:CE part of sup. FoM, and is not a bad redacted card text. So LSJ, please think about what I'm saying, if you did all porpousely, it's ok i'll accept that but, if there's an error please fix it for the sake of the good playing and understanding. Thank you.

... Seriously there's the need of distinction between FoM and Earth meld. With your proposal, FoM is a combat ends perfect again psyché ! and you don't need another things (for example rapid change and EM). FoM needs a little default (gain psyché! and telepathic tracking), or it will be too powerful. Sorry to have made a joke, I will slash my back, I just have to buy a new whip. Bye. Kamel.

ThE OnLy VipeR wrote: > as LSJ points out, that's exactly the part of the text that needs to be > changed, because it is being tied to the burn 1 blood effect wich Remember to quote context if you want to refer to something in that context. > occurs AFTER combat ends. that's why there must be a distinction > between the S:CE and the burn 1 blood effect. > > I tell you it's a Hell that besides being able to use it only once > during MY actions, the same applies when OTHER is acting and I am > reacting!!. So please let's get serious here, there's a problem with > the card text that needs to be fixed, at least that LSJ says that the > "once per action" part was intentionally added to the S:CE part of sup. > FoM, and is not a bad redacted card text. > > So LSJ, please think about what I'm saying, if you did all porpousely, > it's ok i'll accept that but, if there's an error please fix it for the > sake of the good playing and understanding. The change was several years in the making. It's about as purposeful as it gets. It is not an error. It functions now exactly as it (the most recent card text) intended.

In message <1123079906.9...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, ThE OnLy VipeR <fina...@hotmail.com> writes: >as LSJ points out, that's exactly the part of the text that needs to be >changed, What's exactly the part of the text? Unless you quote the relevant sections of the post to which you are responding - which can be done easily with Google - it is hard to tell "exactly" what you're talking about. >So LSJ, please think about what I'm saying, if you did all porpousely, >it's ok i'll accept that but, if there's an error please fix it for the >sake of the good playing and understanding. What needs fixing for understanding? The card says that it can only be played once per action at superior. That's pretty understandable. Many, many cards could be upgraded for "good playing". Why single out Form of Mist? Why not pick Eyes of the Dead? Or Mummify? Then realise just how many cards would need to be errata-ed if this was the case. *Lots* of cards could be better. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

Sorry, the part that LSJ was pointing was the "only one sup. FoM can be played each action" and is what i believe that is wrong. correct me if I'm wrong but if I remember well, sup. FoM is the ONLY combat card that can be played only once during an action

my problem with the card text is that it's been given a different trait with respect to the rest of the combat cards

[ quoted text not captured ] Reality Mirror. and barring DI, Mummify. ;) oscar

In message <1123097368....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, ThE OnLy VipeR <fina...@hotmail.com> writes: >my problem with the card text is that it's been given a different trait >with respect to the rest of the combat cards Why's that a problem? Lots of cards have "different" traits from the rest of other cards. For instance, a search on "Combat card" and "Costs pool" only turns up "Caseless Rounds". Should we change that, too? Harzomatuili is the only ally that requires a title. And for that matter, Shambling Hordes and Puppeteer are the only ones that require a discipline. And Alia is the only one that requires Gehenna cards. And... Why is a card having its own unusual quirk something that necessitates errata? Lots of cards have unusual quirks. [ quoted text not captured ]

ok, i surrender, there's no point in keep trying without support. however, thank you for your patience at least I showed my point and that satisfies me

[ quoted text not captured ] Ashes to Ashes Amaranth Pulled Fangs May be more too... Other funky "once per" cards... Ancient Influence Political Stranglehold Flaming Candle Festivo dello Estinto ...and on and on.... Point is, card text *intentionally* breaks the rules. That's kind of the point. :)

In message <1123098253....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, OrgPlay <org...@white-wolf.com> writes: >ThE OnLy VipeR wrote: >> correct me if I'm wrong but if I remember well, sup. FoM is the ONLY >> combat card that can be played only once during an action > >Reality Mirror. > >and barring DI, Mummify. Not true regarding Mummify. You could interrupt the S:CE with something sufficiently disruptive - such as a Psyche! - and ONLY get the Combat Ends effect. (There are other even more bizarre corner cases, if you want to go down that route, such as your opponent attempting aggravated damage, a Rotschreck being played, then a Psyche! or whatever.) This time next year, all the cool kids will be playing Mummify / Telepathic Tracking decks, mark my words. [ quoted text not captured ]

"ThE OnLy VipeR" <fina...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1123099387.6...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > ok, i surrender, there's no point in keep trying without support. > however, thank you for your patience > at least I showed my point and that satisfies me > ...To qoute text using Google Groups, click the "Show Options" link at the top of the message you wish to reply to, then click the "Reply" link in the dropdown menu that results. You'll get quoted text just like you would if you used a standard newsreader (and the rest of us will be able to understand what you're posting about)... Regards, R. David Zopf Atom Weaver

jeff...@pacbell.net wrote: > OrgPlay wrote: >>ThE OnLy VipeR wrote: >>>correct me if I'm wrong but if I remember well, sup. FoM is the ONLY >>>combat card that can be played only once during an action >> >>Reality Mirror. >> >>and barring DI, Mummify. > > Ashes to Ashes Undead Persistence allows more than one to be played. > Amaranth Can be played more than once if you torporize the second guy coming in (say, with Fast Reaction). > Pulled Fangs Can be played more than once (Fast Reaction). [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] And on top of all that, and based on this line of thought, Form of Mist is the only combat card that provides "action continuing" without any restriction on each type of action you're allowed to carry on (see Mirror Image, Shadow Body, Toreador's Bane at [mel]) and can be played on any normal combat regardless of clan or opponent's capacity (Toreador's Bane at [MEL] still needs a Toreador or younger vampire). So should we add a "only non-bleed, non-political actions" or whatever to its text at superior? Or even a "only usable against a younger vampire" clause instead? If it were to be errata'ed for something (though I believe it needs not), certainly it wouldn't be the "once per action" part. best,

[ quoted text not captured ] And on top of all that, and based on this line of thought, Form of Mist [ quoted text not captured ]

Synesios wrote: > And on top of all that, and based on this line of thought, Form of Mist > is the only combat card that provides "action continuing" without any > restriction on each type of action you're allowed to carry on (see > Mirror Image, Shadow Body, Toreador's Bane at [mel]) and can be played > on any normal combat regardless of clan or opponent's capacity > (Toreador's Bane at [MEL] still needs a Toreador or younger vampire). > > So should we add a "only non-bleed, non-political actions" or whatever > to its text at superior? Or even a "only usable against a younger > vampire" clause instead? > > If it were to be errata'ed for something (though I believe it needs > not), certainly it wouldn't be the "once per action" part. Flow Within the Mountain also has no such restrictions. However, Form of Mist is the only one that continues the action and adds stealth on top of that. It is easily more useful than all of the other action-continues cards. Form of Mist is definitely amongst the strongest cards in the game, so I have no idea why someone would be complaining how weak it is. Considering how vicious DOM/PRO bleed is, I wouldn't mind removing the "once per action" clause and inserting a "non-bleed action" clause instead! ;) - Eric Chiang

James Coupe wrote: > In message <1123098253....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, > Not true regarding Mummify. You could interrupt the S:CE with something > sufficiently disruptive - such as a Psyche! - and ONLY get the Combat > Ends effect. (There are other even more bizarre corner cases, if you > want to go down that route, such as your opponent attempting aggravated > damage, a Rotschreck being played, then a Psyche! or whatever.) > > This time next year, all the cool kids will be playing > Mummify / Telepathic Tracking decks, mark my words. Alternatively, think about fighting Watenda. You play Mummify, he cancels it, and you play it again. With that in mind, I do think that Form of Mist (sup) and Reality Mirror are the only combat cards that you can only play once during a given action.

echia...@yahoo.com wrote: > With that in mind, I do think that Form of Mist (sup) and Reality > Mirror are the only combat cards that you can only play once during a > given action. Reality Mirror is alone, actually. You can superior Mist, Mask, and superior Mist again, for example. [ quoted text not captured ]