Dodgy Disagreement...

If a dodge beats a first strike, what good is having *superior* potentering Blow, or Sup. Cel. for Fast Hands? Doesn't that rule kinda take away some of the...I dunno, mood or something? Like some dorky Caitiff can dodge Anvil as well as she can Angel. There should be a bonus to having a superior discipline. Is this the way the rule has *always* been, or was it changed somewhere along the line due to mass confusion or something. Is that ruling ever gonna be reversed in V:tES? It's hard to sound like I'm not whining, <sniffle> but, hey, First strike should be _*FIRST*_ Strike. Anyone with a logical explanation, please let me in on it!?! PLEASE?!? Jere Culleton May you Sleep safely And Hunt quietly...

In article <D7vz2...@freenet.carleton.ca>, Gord Culleton <bg...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote: >If a dodge beats a first strike, what good is having *superior* potentering Blow, or Sup. Cel. for Fast Hands? Doesn't that rule kinda >take away some of the...I dunno, mood or something? Like some Not at all. The Sup. Cel. people get additional strikes, which greatly compensate for the ability to dodge them once. Celerity combat is the best around, and Cel/Pot combat can be downright evil. | If you've got a hot lead on a new | *--Joe--* | PC game, call the announce line at | js...@vt.edu | ** csi...@discus.ise.vt.edu ** | +-------------------------------------+---------------------------------- "Carnivores, oy!" -- Timon, TLK

In article <D7vz2...@freenet.carleton.ca> bg...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gord Culleton) writes: > >If a dodge beats a first strike, what good is having *superior* potentering Blow, or Sup. Cel. for Fast Hands? Doesn't that rule kinda >take away some of the...I dunno, mood or something? Like some >dorky Caitiff can dodge Anvil as well as she can Angel. There should >be a bonus to having a superior discipline. Steal/Destroy Equipment with First Strike can, when not Dodged, get at the equipment before it can be used. It makes a big difference if the equipment is a Flamethrower. I do have a question. If the blocking minion has two .44s, and I Canine Horde him, what happens? Does he hit me with his .44? >Is this the way the rule >has *always* been, or was it changed somewhere along the line due >to mass confusion or something. As to this question, the rules as written are vague in this point. I personally don't know if the DTR is the intent of the designer, but I don't object to the ruling. -- "Live Life with Heart." Alan Kwan kw...@cs.cornell.edu

In article <3o3kh1$q...@ask.cs.cornell.edu>, Alan Kwan <kw...@cs.cornell.edu> wrote: > >I do have a question. If the blocking minion has two .44s, and >I Canine Horde him, what happens? Does he hit me with his .44? You can destroy only one of them- I would choose the one he was striking with if I were blocking, and he would coose to strike with the one your weren't destroying if he was blocking. -- ----- L. Scott Johnson (lsc...@crl.com) Graphics Specialist and Jyhad Rulemonger

bg...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gord Culleton) writes: >If a dodge beats a first strike, what good is having *superior* >potentering Blow, or Sup. Cel. for Fast Hands? Well, in those cases, first strike means the target doesn't get a last chance to use the weapon before it's snitched. >Doesn't that rule kinda >take away some of the...I dunno, mood or something? Like some >dorky Caitiff can dodge Anvil as well as she can Angel. Caitiff + she = were you trying to plaster Hasina Kesi? :-) >Is this the way the rule has *always* been No. > or was it changed somewhere along the line due >to mass confusion or something. Is that ruling ever gonna be reversed >in V:tES? It's hard to sound like I'm not whining, <sniffle> but, >hey, First strike should be _*FIRST*_ Strike. Anyone with a logical >explanation, please let me in on it!?! PLEASE?!? The rules team just decided they wanted Dodge to avoid things like the Muddled vampire hunter and first strike steal/destroy equipment. The definition of Dodge has always been a bit in flux. There have been changes in how Dodge deals with First Strike, and whether Dodge negates effects of a strike other than those on the Dodging minion. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)

In article <3o68dd$c...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes: > >Alan Kwan <kw...@cs.cornell.edu> wrote: >>I do have a question. If the blocking minion has two .44s, and >>I Canine Horde him, what happens? Does he hit me with his .44? > >If a weapon is declared as a strike, and that weapon is stolen or burned >before the strike can resolve, then the strike is neutralized. So assuming >you Canine Horde the .44 the minion is striking with, you won't take any >damage. Note that this is only really useful if the minion has been locked >into using one .44 by maneuvering with it or something; if it is free to >use either gun, it will presumably use the gun that isn't destroyed. There is a hidden timing issue involved. 1. I play Canine Horde 2. He shoots one of his .44s 3. Canine Horde is resolved as First Strike ... It is obvious that he picks which .44 he's firing during step 2. The question is, does Canine Horde pick its target weapon during step 1 or step 3? [ quoted text not captured ]

Alan Kwan <kw...@cs.cornell.edu> wrote: >I do have a question. If the blocking minion has two .44s, and >I Canine Horde him, what happens? Does he hit me with his .44? If a weapon is declared as a strike, and that weapon is stolen or burned before the strike can resolve, then the strike is neutralized. So assuming you Canine Horde the .44 the minion is striking with, you won't take any damage. Note that this is only really useful if the minion has been locked into using one .44 by maneuvering with it or something; if it is free to use either gun, it will presumably use the gun that isn't destroyed. Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

kw...@cs.cornell.edu (Alan Kwan) writes: >In article <3o68dd$c...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes: >> >>Alan Kwan <kw...@cs.cornell.edu> wrote: >>>I do have a question. If the blocking minion has two .44s, and >>>I Canine Horde him, what happens? Does he hit me with his .44? >> >>If a weapon is declared as a strike, and that weapon is stolen or burned >>before the strike can resolve, then the strike is neutralized. So assuming >>you Canine Horde the .44 the minion is striking with, you won't take any >>damage. Note that this is only really useful if the minion has been locked >>into using one .44 by maneuvering with it or something; if it is free to >>use either gun, it will presumably use the gun that isn't destroyed. >There is a hidden timing issue involved. >1. I play Canine Horde >2. He shoots one of his .44s >3. Canine Horde is resolved as First Strike >... >It is obvious that he picks which .44 he's firing during step 2. >The question is, does Canine Horde pick its target weapon >during step 1 or step 3? During step 1. "Announce strike and target" (Paraphrase from the rules' outline) -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu) Graphics Specialist and Jyhad Rulemonger.

kw...@cs.cornell.edu (Alan Kwan) wrote: > > In article <3o68dd$c...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes: > > > >Alan Kwan <kw...@cs.cornell.edu> wrote: > >>I do have a question. If the blocking minion has two .44s, and > >>I Canine Horde him, what happens? Does he hit me with his .44? > > > >If a weapon is declared as a strike, and that weapon is stolen or burned > >before the strike can resolve, then the strike is neutralized. So assuming > >you Canine Horde the .44 the minion is striking with, you won't take any > >damage. Note that this is only really useful if the minion has been locked > >into using one .44 by maneuvering with it or something; if it is free to > >use either gun, it will presumably use the gun that isn't destroyed. > > There is a hidden timing issue involved. > > 1. I play Canine Horde > 2. He shoots one of his .44s > 3. Canine Horde is resolved as First Strike > .... > > It is obvious that he picks which .44 he's firing during step 2. > The question is, does Canine Horde pick its target weapon > during step 1 or step 3? Peace Alan, You are missing one thing. The weapon player has _already_ picked his weapon. S/H/It manuevered with it which commited them to use the weapon that they used to manuever. You mearly aim your CH at that weapon and take no damage. Nil carborundum illigitimi, James R. McClure Jr. The OS/2 Apostle <insert disclaimer here>

[ quoted text not captured ] >Peace Alan, [ quoted text not captured ] You are asuuming that a gun was used for a maneuver. That is not always the case, and certainly not in the case of this question. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu) | These opinions are mine and Graphics Specialist and Jyhad Rulemonger. | are subject to card text.

bg...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gord Culleton) writes: >If a dodge beats a first strike, what good is having *superior* potentering Blow, or Sup. Cel. for Fast Hands? Doesn't that rule kinda >take away some of the...I dunno, mood or something? Like some >dorky Caitiff can dodge Anvil as well as she can Angel. There should >be a bonus to having a superior discipline. Is this the way the rule >has *always* been, or was it changed somewhere along the line due >to mass confusion or something. Is that ruling ever gonna be reversed >in V:tES? It's hard to sound like I'm not whining, <sniffle> but, >hey, First strike should be _*FIRST*_ Strike. Anyone with a logical >explanation, please let me in on it!?! PLEASE?!? > Jere Culleton >May you Sleep safely >And Hunt quietly... Hey. I agree whole-heartedly! Finding out that Combat Ends cancels a first strike was bad enough, but a Dodge? Come on. First Strike should always be FIRST. Even before the Combat Ends. I took out all of the Fast Hands and Shattering Blows that I had in my deck because ANYONE can avoid them now. Ah well, what're ya gonna do.... chris

L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote: >>> >...So assuming >>> >you Canine Horde the .44 the minion is striking with, you won't take any >>> >damage. Note that this is only really useful if the minion has been locked >>> >into using one .44 by maneuvering with it or something; if it is free to >>> >use either gun, it will presumably use the gun that isn't destroyed. >>You are missing one thing. The weapon player has _already_ picked his weapon. >>S/H/It manuevered with it which commited them to use the weapon that they used >>to manuever. You mearly aim your CH at that weapon and take no damage. > >You are asuuming that a gun was used for a maneuver. That is not always >the case, and certainly not in the case of this question. Please note that my original answer to the question covered both cases, first the general case where you don't know which gun will be used, then the specific case where the minion maneuvered with one. [ quoted text not captured ]

Combat ends and dodge always beat first strike. This is how we want the game to work. If you disagree, then you are (as always) free to play with a house rule. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 1 May 1995, Alan Kwan wrote: > Steal/Destroy Equipment with First Strike can, when not Dodged, > get at the equipment before it can be used. It makes a big difference > if the equipment is a Flamethrower. > > I do have a question. If the blocking minion has two .44s, and > I Canine Horde him, what happens? Does he hit me with his .44? > If you don't use a manuver from one of them then you could use the one that was not destroyed, but if you manuvered with one and it got canine horded you won't have a strike. Your strike would have to have been from that weapon and since it got destroyed you can't use it. --------- Paul Schaaf sch...@u.washington.edu

In article <3o43v6$g...@crl.crl.com>, L. Scott Johnson <lsc...@crl.com> wrote: >In article <3o3kh1$q...@ask.cs.cornell.edu>, >Alan Kwan <kw...@cs.cornell.edu> wrote: >> >>I do have a question. If the blocking minion has two .44s, and >>I Canine Horde him, what happens? Does he hit me with his .44? > >You can destroy only one of them- I would choose the one he was >striking with if I were blocking, and he would coose to strike >with the one your weren't destroying if he was blocking. And if he used a manuever from one of the .44s during range determination, I would destroy that one. Note that he can't use manuevers from both in the same round. -- J. Hunter Johnson jhun...@io.com (Illuminati Online) jeff.j...@columbiasc.attgis.com (Windows Desktop) "Unlike entirely too many of what I'm told are members of my species, I haven't opened my mind far enough for my brain to fall out." - D. Heffernan

aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) wrote: > > > Combat ends and dodge always beat first strike. This is how we want the > game to work. If you disagree, then you are (as always) free to play > with a house rule. Peace Tom, The problem isn't that CE/Dodge 'beat' first strike. I agree with that. I feel that most of the players do. The problem is the "resolves IMMEDIATELY" part of CE/Dodge that the DTR added after the revised rules. There is no reason (including CE/Dodge must 'beat' first strike) for CE/Dodge to resolve immediately. They could just as easily resolve during strike resolution and the only difference would be that the blocking minion could play card(s). Why shouldn't the blocking minion be able to play? [ quoted text not captured ]

Hey, a quick but important question. If I'm using canine horde to destroy equipment with first strike, and my opponent dodges, is the equipment still destroyed? I assume majesty would save the equipment. Thanks for the reply. Algustas *****If God did not exist, we would have to invent him. (Some obscure Voltaire quote.)*****

Christy Jane Friedeman (cfr...@gladstone.uoregon.edu) wrote: : Hey, a quick but important question. If I'm using canine horde to [ quoted text not captured ] Dodge negates first strike : destroy weapon so the equipment lives. JA Chapman

Christy Jane Friedeman <cfr...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> writes: > Hey, a quick but important question. If I'm using canine horde to >destroy equipment with first strike, and my opponent dodges, is the >equipment still destroyed? I assume majesty would save the equipment. Currently Dodge beats first strike, so the equipment is not destroyed. ))marko -- I would give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

ma...@beta.hut.fi (Marko Puumalainen) writes: >Christy Jane Friedeman <cfr...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> writes: >> Hey, a quick but important question. If I'm using canine horde to >>destroy equipment with first strike, and my opponent dodges, is the >>equipment still destroyed? I assume majesty would save the equipment. >Currently Dodge beats first strike, so the equipment is not destroyed. Is this not a Strike:Dodge card? if so first strikes are RESOLVED then later strikes may take place. So by the time we get to the dodge card playing the shatter has resolved. > ))marko >-- >I would give my right arm to be ambidextrous. -- This is the official account of the Let's Try This Player's, DramaTech's Own Improvisational Comedy Troupe. Performing random acts of spontaneity at MaTech We are dedicated to the discovery of theraputic humor through spontaneous characterization and organized Chaos. We do not underestimate uses of Duck Tape

dsa...@prism.gatech.edu (Stuart J. Pieloch) writes: >ma...@beta.hut.fi (Marko Puumalainen) writes: >>Currently Dodge beats first strike, so the equipment is not destroyed. >Is this not a Strike:Dodge card? Probably, but it doesn't matter: official errata is that all dodges are strikes, even if the card forgot to say so. >if so first strikes are RESOLVED then later strikes may take place. >So by the time we get to the dodge card playing the shatter has resolved. Official Order of strikes phase: 1) Acting minion chooses strike. (and target for ranged damage) If this is a Combat Ends, then goto end :-) 2) Blocking Minion chooses strike. (and target for ranged damage) If this is a Combat Ends, then goto end :-) 3) Resolve strikes that aren't Combat Ends: a) Resolve Dodge b) Resolve any strike done with first strike. c) Resolve any other strike. If a minion is no longer ready after any given strike resolves, combat is over immediately. (Actually, WotC has been floundering trying to make Combat Ends seem less like an exception and has dragged the resolution of Dodge over to the announce strike phase as well, but writing out that order of things gets even more convoluted than the outline above.) [ quoted text not captured ]