PTO - old topic - Simple errata suggestion...

Okay, doing a search on PTO (Protect Thine Own) you find a lot of people complaining for and against changes to the card. The point of this post is not to go down that well trodden path. Instead just want to make some simple statements and a simple errata. - By end of Sabbat War there were 355 vampires. 136 were sabbat. Which is 38% or about 2/5 of the total vampires. - PTO works on "Non-camarilla". So at the time of Sabbat war it was a card that only worked on 2/5 the vampires (no anarch action yet). Not to bad a card. - Now there is 1057 vampires/imbued. 347 are Camarilla/Imbued. That means that 67% can be affected by PTO (not including Go-anarch opportunities). - This does not include the new Sword of Caine set. - So PTO is getting better and better as more sets come out because it is not a 1:1 ratio of Camarilla to Non-Camarilla expansions. ---------------------- Simple Errata (works quite well with 3rd edition now out) Why not just make PTO work on Sabbat only? (The original "non-camarilla)? There are 439 Sabbat vampires now. That would make PTO work on 41% (once again about 2/5) of the total vampires. [Note: That PTO still becomes better with Sword of Caine but should taper down witn subsequent sets.] If PTO was supposed to work on less then half of the Vampires... this simple errate would bring it back down to that level. ------------------------ Any comments are of course welcome. Adam

adam....@gmail.com wrote: > Simple Errata (works quite well with 3rd edition now out) > Why not just make PTO work on Sabbat only? Because it came out in Ancient Hearts, when there were Zero Sabbat vampires. > (The original "non-camarilla)? The original "non-camarilla" vampires were the independents. > There are 439 Sabbat vampires now. That would make PTO > work on 41% (once again about 2/5) of the total vampires. Lot fewer independents than that.

On Jan 2, 11:22 am, "adam.hu...@gmail.com" <adam.hu...@gmail.com> wrote: > Why not just make PTO work on Sabbat only? (The original > "non-camarilla)? There are 439 Sabbat vampires now. That would make PTO > work on 41% (once again about 2/5) of the total vampires. As noted, it would make more sense to make it "Independant" vampires only--when PTO was printed, the Sabbat did not exist, and so it could only burn Independant vampires (i.e. Assamite, Giovanni, Ravanos, Settite). It is certainly arguable that they knew they were making Sabbat when they printed PTO, although they also may not have. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] Yes, and although it would pain me to see a card designed to destroy my beloved Indies, it would make much more sense in the Wod, and be much more balanced int he game, which is why I (among others) already made that proposal some years back. And I still believe it would be one of the best choices available. In the RPG logic it could be extended also to Bloodlines or Laibon, but there are quite a few of those around so I'm not sure it would be good for the CCG. Other choices incude : - give it a blood cost similar to / in the spirit of EcU - restrict it to non-titled vamps - restrict it to under 7-Caps Some of these being, possibly, cumulative (no titled, no 7-Caps and above...). The current design team showed us what they considered was a balanced "burn-a-vamp" vote, and it's fine with me, so I really hope they will tune down PTO. It might have to wait until the next Camarilla expansion, but if it is done it will be well worth the wait !! -- ---------------------------------------- "I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, ... but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant." --Robert McCloskey

[ quoted text not captured ] Yes, and although it would pain me to see a card designed to destroy my beloved Indies, it would make much more sense in the Wod, and be much more balanced int he game, which is why I (among others) already made that proposal some years back. And I still believe it would be one of the best choices available. In the RPG logic it could be extended also to Bloodlines or Laibon, but there are quite a few of those around so I'm not sure it would be good for the CCG. Other choices incude : - give it a blood cost similar to / in the spirit of EcU - restrict it to non-titled vamps - restrict it to under 7-Caps Some of these being, possibly, cumulative (no titled, no 7-Caps and above...). The current design team showed us what they considered was a balanced "burn-a-vamp" vote, and it's fine with me, so I really hope they will tune down PTO. It might have to wait until the next Camarilla expansion, but if it is done it will be well worth the wait !! -- Orpheus [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Yes, and although it would pain me to see a card designed to destroy my [ quoted text not captured ]

Sorry for the multi-posting, first bug of 2007 ! ;-) -- Orpheus Nearly made it to LSJ's Killfile !! "Orpheus" <orphe...@DEADSPAMfree.fr> a écrit dans le message de news: 459a9efa$0$293$426a...@news.free.fr... [ quoted text not captured ]

Personally i think that PTO should target independent vampires only, because it was originally created to do that. (Larger opportunity cost, but still good card when you can use it.) In current form PTO has so many targets that every IC player will put those cards in their decks.

[ quoted text not captured ] How's this for an elegant solution: What if PTO targeted "non-Camarilla, non-Anarch" vampires? It would allow a little more passive defense against PTO, and "thematically" the Camarilla considers the Anarchs a part of their family. Just a thought. Personally I don't care about PTO either way...

[ quoted text not captured ] Here is another take: Fix the 11-cap problem. White Wolf refuses to print 11-caps as good as the Inner Circle (okay, leave out Gwendolyn and Harrod. The others are all nice). Take a look the 11-caps that have been trotted out in the last few expansions. Anyone going to give up Arika for these guys? Didn't think so. Evidently the current design team has a problem with the abilities of the Inner Circle, judging by recent 11-caps. Sha-Ennu has the 4 votes and 3 bleed, but marginal text and special text. The new 11-cap in Sword of Caine has awesome text, but no votes. Where's my Sabbat version of Arika? Might I also add that all these vamps can be burned with PTO. If White Wolf won't print 11-caps up to par with the Inner Circle, I propose they just ban the Inner Circle, which would fix the PTO issue once and for all. Justicar PTO is just fine in its power scope.

On Jan 2, 4:22 pm, "adam.hu...@gmail.com" <adam.hu...@gmail.com> wrote: > Okay, doing a search on PTO (Protect Thine Own) you find a lot of > people complaining for and against changes to the card. The point of > this post is not to go down that well trodden path. Instead just want > to make some simple statements and a simple errata. Here we go again, and again, and again....... but that's ok in the newsgroup. No problem. Being direct, i like the PTO as it is now and i think no change is needed. I understand its effect can be somehow annoying but it's not a winner. If someone checks Lasombra TWDA you don't see so many PTO's in the winning decks. BUT you see a lot of Govern + Conditioning. Which is worst: losing 14 pool in 2 bleeds or having a non-Cam vampire burned? Another thing: people still play a lot Camarilla... Malks S&B, EuroBrujah, Ventrue Vote, Toreador Walls, etc... those are the major winning clans, not the combat antitribus (except !Malks S&B, except for the Giovanni Power or a couple others) or many other independent clans. And for that major winners the PTO don't work! So the vampire analysis of the "67% of non-Cam" is not accurate for this purpose. Also that's why you don't see so many PTO's in the TWDA. Just my 2 cents... again! .- Luis Duarte

On 2 Jan 2007 08:22:23 -0800, adam....@gmail.com <adam....@gmail.com> wrote: > Okay, doing a search on PTO (Protect Thine Own) you find a lot of > people complaining for and against changes to the card. The point of > this post is not to go down that well trodden path. Instead just want > to make some simple statements and a simple errata. Ban PTO! > Simple Errata (works quite well with 3rd edition now out) > > Why not just make PTO work on Sabbat only? (The original > "non-camarilla)? There are 439 Sabbat vampires now. That would make PTO > work on 41% (once again about 2/5) of the total vampires. My comment is: ban PTO. Or make it target Camarilla only. -- Regards, Daneel

[ quoted text not captured ] That doesn't address the issue of 11-caps. By White Wolf's own logic, it seems the IC needs to be banned.

On Jan 3, 6:28 pm, "Nosferatu_3" <bowle...@yahoo.com> wrote: >That doesn't address the issue of 11-caps. By White Wolf's own logic, > it seems the IC needs to be banned. I disagree also. They are excelent indeed BUT limited (only 2 or 3 are worth playing), out of production "that way", "ungroupable" with G4 or later vampires, and far too expensive to play... requiring 11 blood in a single vampire to become ready is still a strong reason for not playing with high-caps. So, why to care about it? Everytime it gets a weenie-dominate deck behind (or even a couple of mid cap Malks) it don't last more that 4 or 5 turns. Do we see nowadays anyone complaining about this weenie (old) situation that disallows people for playing more and more times decks with high caps in tournaments? The answer is no, but the fault is all on Arika... and Harrod... and Gwendolin... and Leandro (the guy with inferior dominate!), not on weenies! .- Luis Duarte

In message <1167848898....@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, Nosferatu_3 <bowl...@yahoo.com> writes: >That doesn't address the issue of 11-caps. By White Wolf's own logic, >it seems the IC needs to be banned. That's some mighty crap logic you've got there. Choosing not to print cards that are as powerful as some other cards does not mean that chose cards are broken to the point of banning. For example, it could just mean that they're not a level of power that the designers want to extend, but are content to allow to remain in the game. Alternatively, the Camarilla could benefit from HOT HOT eleven- cap vampires, while the designers choose to (try to) bolster other clans/sects in other ways, such as better or more efficient discipline spreads, cheaper vampires, powerful mid-caps, non-unique vampires... Similarly, White Wolf have chosen not to print another vampire with the same power level as Ian Forestal. That doesn't mean Ian Forestal should be banned. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

James Coupe wrote: > In message <1167848898....@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, > Nosferatu_3 <bowl...@yahoo.com> writes: > >That doesn't address the issue of 11-caps. By White Wolf's own logic, > >it seems the IC needs to be banned. > > That's some mighty crap logic you've got there. > > Choosing not to print cards that are as powerful as some other cards > does not mean that chose cards are broken to the point of banning. For > example, it could just mean that they're not a level of power that the > designers want to extend, but are content to allow to remain in the > game. Alternatively, the Camarilla could benefit from HOT HOT eleven- > cap vampires, while the designers choose to (try to) bolster other > clans/sects in other ways, such as better or more efficient discipline > spreads, cheaper vampires, powerful mid-caps, non-unique vampires... > > Similarly, White Wolf have chosen not to print another vampire with the > same power level as Ian Forestal. That doesn't mean Ian Forestal should > be banned. It's not crap logic. Why not extend it? If X group gets have their toys, why can't Y group have them? Other clans are not benefitting enough. Look at the TDWA; it's full of Cam. And as much flak as PTO gets, this would fix that as well. Also, Ian Forestal is not, im my opinion, an example of a powerful vampire. Paying for an 8 cap to play stuff in inferior is not powerful. Special text, static votes, static bleed, and good disc spreads are powerful. If it's good enough to leave in the game, it's good enough to make more. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <1167854279....@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, Nosferatu_3 <bowl...@yahoo.com> writes: > >James Coupe wrote: >> In message <1167848898....@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, >> Nosferatu_3 <bowl...@yahoo.com> writes: >> >That doesn't address the issue of 11-caps. By White Wolf's own logic, >> >it seems the IC needs to be banned. >> >> That's some mighty crap logic you've got there. > >It's not crap logic. It really is. White Wolf haven't printed vampires exactly like the existing Inner Circle absolutely does not mean that they have to be banned, no matter how much you try to pretend otherwise! > Why not extend it? Because it's really crap logic. >If X group gets have their >toys, why can't Y group have them? Because *different* clans are *different*. That is, they're not the same. Some have lots of titles. Some don't. Some have Inner Circle. Some don't. Some have lots of +bleed. Some don't. Some have non- unique vampires. Some don't. Because the Blood Brothers, Setites and Assamites (for example) have non-unique vampires, everyone else has to get them? This is not the pinnacle of high-class logic. >Other clans are not benefitting >enough. Erm, so? If you don't feel that other clans are good enough, that doesn't mean you have to ban the things other clans have. You can fix that by, you know, printing good things for other clans instead! >Look at the TDWA; it's full of Cam. So? Not all of that is filled with Inner Circle. A good Euro-Brujah deck getting into the TWDA is evidence that the Inner Circle should be banned? That's really stupid. >And as much flak as PTO >gets, this would fix that as well. Also, Ian Forestal is not, im my >opinion, an example of a powerful vampire. He has a potentially infinite spread of points, unlike every other vampire in the game. That's pretty powerful. However, clearly White Wolf are unhappy with Ian Forestal because they haven't printed another vampire exactly like him. So ban him. This is the logic you're using for the Inner Circle. If you don't like it for Ian Forestal, you may care to doubt it for the Inner Circle also. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > In message <1167854279....@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, > Nosferatu_3 <bowl...@yahoo.com> writes: > > > >James Coupe wrote: > >> In message <1167848898....@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, > >> Nosferatu_3 <bowl...@yahoo.com> writes: > >> >That doesn't address the issue of 11-caps. By White Wolf's own logic, > >> >it seems the IC needs to be banned. > >> > >> That's some mighty crap logic you've got there. > > > >It's not crap logic. > > It really is. White Wolf haven't printed vampires exactly like the > existing Inner Circle absolutely does not mean that they have to be > banned, no matter how much you try to pretend otherwise! It's not pretending. I don't want vampires exactly like them. I don't want them banned, but the designers are basically admitting that they should be! > > > Why not extend it? > > Because it's really crap logic. That doesn't answer why there should not be 11-caps as good as IC. > > >If X group gets have their > >toys, why can't Y group have them? > > Because *different* clans are *different*. That is, they're not the > same. Some have lots of titles. Some don't. Some have Inner Circle. > Some don't. Some have lots of +bleed. Some don't. Some have non- > unique vampires. Some don't. > > Because the Blood Brothers, Setites and Assamites (for example) have > non-unique vampires, everyone else has to get them? This is not the > pinnacle of high-class logic. > > > >Other clans are not benefitting > >enough. > > Erm, so? If you don't feel that other clans are good enough, that > doesn't mean you have to ban the things other clans have. You can fix > that by, you know, printing good things for other clans instead! > THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT. They had their chance to print good 11-caps and they didn't do it. At least not good with respect to the IC. I'd rather not ban anything myself, but this is how frustrated I'm getting with their design. We'll give all these other sects second rate crap, but the IC gets to keep their WOTC PTO. > > >Look at the TDWA; it's full of Cam. > > So? Not all of that is filled with Inner Circle. A good Euro-Brujah > deck getting into the TWDA is evidence that the Inner Circle should be > banned? That's really stupid. > > > >And as much flak as PTO > >gets, this would fix that as well. Also, Ian Forestal is not, im my > >opinion, an example of a powerful vampire. > > He has a potentially infinite spread of points, unlike every other > vampire in the game. That's pretty powerful. However, clearly White > Wolf are unhappy with Ian Forestal because they haven't printed another > vampire exactly like him. So ban him. > > This is the logic you're using for the Inner Circle. If you don't like > it for Ian Forestal, you may care to doubt it for the Inner Circle also. > There are plenty of 8-caps that are just as good as or far better than Ian Forestal. > -- > James Coupe > PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. > EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. > 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION. This is more of a protest about the new 11-caps not being up to the old standard. I don't want them to be the same, but being as good as or almost as good as would be nice. Ian Forestal can have his "infinite spread" but that doesn't *DO* anything. Arika makes certain deck types explode by just existing (location-based decks). Ian playing discipline cards at inferior is hardly even in the same ballpark. Basically your justification for newer 11-caps getting shafted is "that's the way it is" or "they are different".

In message <1167858247.6...@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Nosferatu_3 <bowl...@yahoo.com> writes: > >James Coupe wrote: >> In message <1167854279....@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, >> Nosferatu_3 <bowl...@yahoo.com> writes: >> >It's not crap logic. >> >> It really is. White Wolf haven't printed vampires exactly like the >> existing Inner Circle absolutely does not mean that they have to be >> banned, no matter how much you try to pretend otherwise! > >It's not pretending. I don't want vampires exactly like them. I don't >want them banned, but the designers are basically admitting that they >should be! Really, really, really, if you think that not printing more vampires that are exactly the same power level and capacity as the Inner Circle means that the designers think the Inner Circle should be banned, you're not making any sense *at all*. Really. >> >> > Why not extend it? >> >> Because it's really crap logic. > >That doesn't answer why there should not be 11-caps as good as IC. Why *should* there be? Why not make the other clans distinct in some way? Why not have them have their power vamps work in a different way? Or, perhaps, the designers *want* to print more 11 caps like the Inner Circle, but haven't hit on a design they wanted. Or they pretty much didn't want to do it in Group 3, because then there'd be more vampires of the same power level all playable together, which maybe they didn't want. So perhaps they chose not to do it in Group 3 at all, and haven't had a reasonable opportunity in Group 4 that they wanted to use. How's your logic holding up? >> >Other clans are not benefitting >> >enough. >> >> Erm, so? If you don't feel that other clans are good enough, that >> doesn't mean you have to ban the things other clans have. You can fix >> that by, you know, printing good things for other clans instead! >> >THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT. Then shut up about the stupid "logic" you claim means White Wolf "logic" have to ban the Inner Circle. It's complete nonsense. You're imagining complete shit and claiming it's logic. It's utter, utter nonsense. Every single word of it. Yet you claim "It's not crap logic." Which is just farcical. >Basically your justification for newer 11-caps getting shafted is >"that's the way it is" or "they are different". You're the one claiming White Wolf think the Inner Circle should be banned. The ball's in your court. I'm the one pointing out that your so-called "logic" is nonsense, which is a very different thing to saying that certain clans should or shouldn't get such-and-such. I'm simply pointing out that your logic is completely illogical. Nothing about not printing more vampires of the same capacity and identical power level to Arika means that Arika should be banned. Follow the line of logic: there will always be a most powerful vampire in the game. For argument's sake, let's say it's Arika. No more vampires have been printed that are as powerful as Arika. So White Wolf are saying ban her. Then this continues down repeatedly until we ban *huge* swathes of vampires, taking out the best vampire each time. That is not logic. That's insanity. And the insanity that you're claiming is "logic". [ quoted text not captured ]

Luis Duarte - Powerbase:Lisbon kirjoitti: [ quoted text not captured ] Maybe they have played Camarilla in the fear of PTO ? And by the logic of bleed, you can always redirect bleed to someone else. So how does it feel when your bleeding your pray for 4+ pool, and it gets deflected ? You also need to remember, that this game is supposed to be fun. PTO is as far away from fun, as it is being the prey of a malk s&b or anything similar. They win games, but it isn't fun winning a game with those decks.

Luis Duarte - Powerbase:Lisbon kirjoitti: > I disagree also. They are excelent indeed BUT limited (only 2 or 3 are > worth playing), out of production "that way", "ungroupable" with G4 or > later vampires, and far too expensive to play... requiring 11 blood in > a single vampire to become ready is still a strong reason for not > playing with high-caps. I disagree with only 2 or 3 IC's being playable. Arika, Etrius, and Stanislava certainly are, as are Leandro and Alexandra. Harrod and Gwendolyn get the shaft. Did I say that the latter 2 are the only ones who can't redirect bleed ?

In message <1167861848....@42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>, Akantes <aka...@hotmail.com> writes: >You also need to remember, that this game is supposed to be fun. PTO is >as far away from fun, as it is being the prey of a malk s&b or anything >similar. They win games, but it isn't fun winning a game with those >decks. Fun is very subjective. What you find un-fun is not what other people find un-fun. Some people do enjoy playing Malk S&B, whatever your feelings about the deck. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe kirjoitti: > Fun is very subjective. What you find un-fun is not what other people > find un-fun. Some people do enjoy playing Malk S&B, whatever your > feelings about the deck. Granted the point of that :)

Nosferatu_3 wrote: > James Coupe wrote: >> In message <1167854279....@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, >> Nosferatu_3 <bowl...@yahoo.com> writes: >>> James Coupe wrote: >>>> In message <1167848898....@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, >>>> Nosferatu_3 <bowl...@yahoo.com> writes: >>>>> That doesn't address the issue of 11-caps. By White Wolf's own logic, >>>>> it seems the IC needs to be banned. [...] > That doesn't answer why there should not be 11-caps as good as IC. [...] > THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT. They had their chance to print good 11-caps and > they didn't do it. At least not good with respect to the IC. I'd rather [...] > This is more of a protest about the new 11-caps not being up to the old > standard. I don't want them to be the same, but being as good as or > almost as good as would be nice. Ian Forestal can have his "infinite > spread" but that doesn't *DO* anything. Arika makes certain deck types > explode by just existing (location-based decks). Ian playing discipline > cards at inferior is hardly even in the same ballpark. Basically your > justification for newer 11-caps getting shafted is "that's the way it > is" or "they are different". You keep using "as good as IC" when it seems you really mean "as good as Arika". The latter is a whole different topic than the former.

[ quoted text not captured ] Arika, Alexandra, Stanislava, Etrius, and Leandro are all better than any 11 cap printed since Dark Sovereigns. It's my opinion and I'm sure many are going to disagree. The new 11 caps don't have the text and/or discplines and/or votes like these vamps do. The closest comparison is Sha-Ennu and her/his text is a joke. Sorry it is. I just really want to know the justification for the way all recent 11 caps have been balanced. I actually prefer the power level of the IC since playing with 11 caps is a pain and many times you lose before you even get your vamp out. I feel the newer 11 caps are generally not worth the transfers and you can get someone cheaper to do the same things. I was more calling for their ban as a devil's advocate role. Sorry for the trouble.

Why just not add the ability to burn blood to gain votes in that referendum? Like Blood Siege.

"""Luis Duarte - Powerbase:Lisbon писал(а): """ > On Jan 2, 4:22 pm, "adam.hu...@gmail.com" <adam.hu...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Okay, doing a search on PTO (Protect Thine Own) you find a lot of > > people complaining for and against changes to the card. The point of > > this post is not to go down that well trodden path. Instead just want > > to make some simple statements and a simple errata. > > Here we go again, and again, and again....... but that's ok in the > newsgroup. No problem. > > Being direct, i like the PTO as it is now and i think no change is > needed. I'm totally amazed of your faulty logic. Or lack of logic. This card is clearly overpowered - how can change be unneeded here? > I understand its effect can be somehow annoying but it's not a winner. > If someone checks Lasombra TWDA you don't see so many PTO's in the > winning decks. BUT you see a lot of Govern + Conditioning. Which is > worst: losing 14 pool in 2 bleeds or having a non-Cam vampire burned? Govern + Conditioning work only on your prey Govern + Conditioning has no inherent stealth Govern + Conditioning cost 2 blood, not just one (though it's minor) Govern + Conditioning takes 7 pool, while PTO takes an 11-cap vampire with all his masters, equipment and retainers (max effect) Govern + Conditioning can be bounced and you will work FOR your prey instead of working AGAINST him. > Another thing: people still play a lot Camarilla... Malks S&B, > EuroBrujah, Ventrue Vote, Toreador Walls, etc... those are the major > winning clans, not the combat antitribus (except !Malks S&B, except for > the Giovanni Power or a couple others) or many other independent clans. > And for that major winners the PTO don't work! So the vampire analysis > of the "67% of non-Cam" is not accurate for this purpose. Also that's > why you don't see so many PTO's in the TWDA. > Honestly, I've never heard such flawed "arguments". Do you think that WW print non-Cam vampires just to look at the beautiful pictures? Vampires are meant to be PLAYED. All vampires, including non-cam 11-caps like Enkidu, Saulot or Elimelech. If Camarilla is much more popular than three other sects combined, this is clearly a lack of balance and should be fixed. And PTO should be fixed first, since it's definitely one of the reasons of Camarilla prevalence. Please think about this. Yours, Ector

> Another thing: people still play a lot Camarilla... Malks S&B, > EuroBrujah, Ventrue Vote, Toreador Walls, etc... those are the major > winning clans, not the combat antitribus (except !Malks S&B, except for > the Giovanni Power or a couple others) or many other independent clans. > And for that major winners the PTO don't work! So the vampire analysis > of the "67% of non-Cam" is not accurate for this purpose. Also that's > why you don't see so many PTO's in the TWDA. The fact that PTO exists and the fact that people play alot of Camarilla are self supporting. If someone begins playing PTO's in your group you will watch people metagame toward Camarilla vampires. It is the single best way to avoid being hit with PTO (i.e. don't provide a target for it). If you see alot of PTO's then you should expect to see alot of Camarilla vampires start being played. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr XZealot Archon of the Swamp

Ector wrote: > """Luis Duarte - Powerbase:Lisbon ÐÉÓÁÌ(Á): > """ > > On Jan 2, 4:22 pm, "adam.hu...@gmail.com" <adam.hu...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Okay, doing a search on PTO (Protect Thine Own) you find a lot of > > > people complaining for and against changes to the card. The point of > > > this post is not to go down that well trodden path. Instead just want > > > to make some simple statements and a simple errata. > > > > Here we go again, and again, and again....... but that's ok in the > > newsgroup. No problem. > > > > Being direct, i like the PTO as it is now and i think no change is > > needed. > I'm totally amazed of your faulty logic. Or lack of logic. This card is > clearly overpowered - how can change be unneeded here? /sarcasm (for those taking this too seriously) Don't forget to call them insane. If they don't agree with you, have an unpopular idea, or use logic you don't approve of, they are clearly insane :) Name calling is the surest way to prove your point! > > > I understand its effect can be somehow annoying but it's not a winner. > > If someone checks Lasombra TWDA you don't see so many PTO's in the > > winning decks. BUT you see a lot of Govern + Conditioning. Which is > > worst: losing 14 pool in 2 bleeds or having a non-Cam vampire burned? > > Govern + Conditioning work only on your prey > Govern + Conditioning has no inherent stealth > Govern + Conditioning cost 2 blood, not just one (though it's minor) > Govern + Conditioning takes 7 pool, while PTO takes an 11-cap vampire > with all his masters, equipment and retainers (max effect) > Govern + Conditioning can be bounced and you will work FOR your prey > instead of working AGAINST him. > > > Another thing: people still play a lot Camarilla... Malks S&B, > > EuroBrujah, Ventrue Vote, Toreador Walls, etc... those are the major > > winning clans, not the combat antitribus (except !Malks S&B, except for > > the Giovanni Power or a couple others) or many other independent clans. > > And for that major winners the PTO don't work! So the vampire analysis > > of the "67% of non-Cam" is not accurate for this purpose. Also that's > > why you don't see so many PTO's in the TWDA. > > > Honestly, I've never heard such flawed "arguments". Do you think that > WW print non-Cam vampires just to look at the beautiful pictures? I like that line. > Vampires are meant to be PLAYED. Thank you. All vampires, including non-cam > 11-caps like Enkidu, Saulot or Elimelech. If Camarilla is much more > popular than three other sects combined, this is clearly a lack of > balance and should be fixed. And PTO should be fixed first, since it's > definitely one of the reasons of Camarilla prevalence. > > Please think about this. I already have :) But I'm insane and have crap logic. So I guess you are wrong too because I agree with you. > > Yours, > Ector

Ector wrote: > """Luis Duarte - Powerbase:Lisbon писал(а): > """ > >>On Jan 2, 4:22 pm, "adam.hu...@gmail.com" <adam.hu...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>Okay, doing a search on PTO (Protect Thine Own) you find a lot of >>>people complaining for and against changes to the card. The point of >>>this post is not to go down that well trodden path. Instead just want >>>to make some simple statements and a simple errata. >> >>Here we go again, and again, and again....... but that's ok in the >>newsgroup. No problem. >> >>Being direct, i like the PTO as it is now and i think no change is >>needed. > > I'm totally amazed of your faulty logic. Or lack of logic. This card is > clearly overpowered - how can change be unneeded here? A minimal effort on your part would reveal that some people disagree with PTO being "clearly overpowered". In fact, this is so disputed that it had been the central issues in very long and argumentative threads. > >>I understand its effect can be somehow annoying but it's not a winner. >>If someone checks Lasombra TWDA you don't see so many PTO's in the >>winning decks. BUT you see a lot of Govern + Conditioning. Which is >>worst: losing 14 pool in 2 bleeds or having a non-Cam vampire burned? > > > Govern + Conditioning work only on your prey > Govern + Conditioning has no inherent stealth > Govern + Conditioning cost 2 blood, not just one (though it's minor) > Govern + Conditioning takes 7 pool, while PTO takes an 11-cap vampire > with all his masters, equipment and retainers (max effect) > Govern + Conditioning can be bounced and you will work FOR your prey > instead of working AGAINST him. Funny how it can win then eh? > >>Another thing: people still play a lot Camarilla... Malks S&B, >>EuroBrujah, Ventrue Vote, Toreador Walls, etc... those are the major >>winning clans, not the combat antitribus (except !Malks S&B, except for >>the Giovanni Power or a couple others) or many other independent clans. >>And for that major winners the PTO don't work! So the vampire analysis >>of the "67% of non-Cam" is not accurate for this purpose. Also that's >>why you don't see so many PTO's in the TWDA. >> > > Honestly, I've never heard such flawed "arguments". Do you think that > WW print non-Cam vampires just to look at the beautiful pictures? > Vampires are meant to be PLAYED. All vampires, including non-cam > 11-caps like Enkidu, Saulot or Elimelech. If Camarilla is much more > popular than three other sects combined, this is clearly a lack of > balance and should be fixed. And PTO should be fixed first, since it's > definitely one of the reasons of Camarilla prevalence. > > Please think about this. oh shut up

FC schreef: > > oh shut up Now I'm convinced by your awesome powers of logic. o-O Instead of posting: "shut up", just don't post?

"""Nosferatu_3 писал(а): > /sarcasm (for those taking this too seriously) > Don't forget to call them insane. If they don't agree with you, have an > unpopular idea, or use logic you don't approve of, they are clearly > insane :) Name calling is the surest way to prove your point! I beg everyone's pardon for losing my temper. This really doesn't happen very often to me, but when I hear somebody arguing that PTO isn't overpowered just because there are some cards against it, or everybody plays only Camarilla, that sort of demagogy really makes me angry. Yours, Ector

"""FC писал(а): """ > Ector wrote: > > """Luis Duarte - Powerbase:Lisbon ÐÉÓÁÌ(Á): > > """ > > > >>On Jan 2, 4:22 pm, "adam.hu...@gmail.com" <adam.hu...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >>>Okay, doing a search on PTO (Protect Thine Own) you find a lot of > >>>people complaining for and against changes to the card. The point of > >>>this post is not to go down that well trodden path. Instead just want > >>>to make some simple statements and a simple errata. > >> > >>Here we go again, and again, and again....... but that's ok in the > >>newsgroup. No problem. > >> > >>Being direct, i like the PTO as it is now and i think no change is > >>needed. > > > > I'm totally amazed of your faulty logic. Or lack of logic. This card is > > clearly overpowered - how can change be unneeded here? > > A minimal effort on your part would reveal that some people disagree > with PTO being "clearly overpowered". In fact, this is so disputed that > it had been the central issues in very long and argumentative threads. A minimal effort on YOUR part would reveal that those people don't have any serious arguments to prove their point, which was demonstrated several times. "You can defend against PTO" isn't an argument, since you could defend even against the "You win the game" vote, but that vote would still remain broken. And if somebody really tries to insist that everyone should play only Camarilla, he's better go visit his doctor. > > > >>I understand its effect can be somehow annoying but it's not a winner. > >>If someone checks Lasombra TWDA you don't see so many PTO's in the > >>winning decks. BUT you see a lot of Govern + Conditioning. Which is > >>worst: losing 14 pool in 2 bleeds or having a non-Cam vampire burned? > > > > > > Govern + Conditioning work only on your prey > > Govern + Conditioning has no inherent stealth > > Govern + Conditioning cost 2 blood, not just one (though it's minor) > > Govern + Conditioning takes 7 pool, while PTO takes an 11-cap vampire > > with all his masters, equipment and retainers (max effect) > > Govern + Conditioning can be bounced and you will work FOR your prey > > instead of working AGAINST him. > > Funny how it can win then eh? It can win because it is *powerful*, but not *overpowered* like PTO. > > > >>Another thing: people still play a lot Camarilla... Malks S&B, > >>EuroBrujah, Ventrue Vote, Toreador Walls, etc... those are the major > >>winning clans, not the combat antitribus (except !Malks S&B, except for > >>the Giovanni Power or a couple others) or many other independent clans. > >>And for that major winners the PTO don't work! So the vampire analysis > >>of the "67% of non-Cam" is not accurate for this purpose. Also that's > >>why you don't see so many PTO's in the TWDA. > >> > > > > Honestly, I've never heard such flawed "arguments". Do you think that > > WW print non-Cam vampires just to look at the beautiful pictures? > > Vampires are meant to be PLAYED. All vampires, including non-cam > > 11-caps like Enkidu, Saulot or Elimelech. If Camarilla is much more > > popular than three other sects combined, this is clearly a lack of > > balance and should be fixed. And PTO should be fixed first, since it's > > definitely one of the reasons of Camarilla prevalence. > > > > Please think about this. > oh shut up What a wonderful "argument" do you have! This clearly indicate that you have no others. Yours, Ector

Ector wrote: > """Nosferatu_3 ÐÉÓÁÌ(Á): [ quoted text not captured ] I was more referring to Mr. Coupe. I'll sum this up. I'm sick of Arika, Stanislava, Alexandra, Leandro, and Etrius. I'm sick of putting Fear of Mekhet in my decks because these 5 vamps exist. The other two are largely unused. They finally print some more 11 caps and who am I still seeing? Arika, Stanislava, Alexandra, Leandro, and Etrius. Are people playing them just because of PTO? Of course not! But this is a reason on the list. Just look at which 11's show up at tourneys, where I will assume most players are playing to win, and you will see what a failure all the new 11's are. There is no justification for paying 11 pool for these newer guys. I agree that not everything has to be tier 1, but it is maddening that all the tier 1 11's are all IC and all from what? 1996? I thought for SURE they would give the Sabbat some love with 3rd with respect to 11's and PTO, but what did they get? Sha-Ennu, some chick with a hot picture you have to MERGE, and Auto-de-fe. Auto-de-fe is an okay card, but it does not have the game altering power of PTO. Nothing's going to change here, it's clear, so we might as well get used to seeing the same old crypts at tournament time for 11caps, because doing anything reduces your chances of winning significantly.