Shuffling at Gencon UK

I played the antitribu Malkavians in the Clan War at Gencon UK. I quite enjoyed the event though my Malkavian Games were handicapped by the banning of the Monocle of Clarity and I lost more than I won. The high point was ousting James "Legbiter" McLellan which he deserved for keeping us kicking our heels while he went in search of more money. Following recent discussions, I was naturally interested in the shuffling procedure. I didn't see any mana-weaving here (the French Shadowfist players were another matter). I elected to shuffle my prey's deck each time but didn't see anyone else do this. There was no problem with James. His deck was unsleeved and a couple of quick riffles passed without comment. In the second game, my prey's deck was encased in black Ultra-Pro sleeves. These were quite sticky but I was able to corner-riffle these fairly well. My grand-prey grumbled that I was bending the cards and that my prey could insist that I shuffle so as not to damage the cards, i.e. by overhand shuffling. I told him that he was wrong and did a third riffle for good measure. I forget exactly what happened in the third game - another sleeved deck I think. My main memory of that was the odd behaviour of my grand-prey. When an early bleed was deflected into him, he put me in a Trap. This didn't seem very friendly or sensible so I put his big bruiser into a Coma. This did neither of us much good but at least I lasted longer than he did. I still stood a chance until my prey kept walking into my predator's deflections - these seemed annoyingly predictable to me. My prey in game 2 seemed fairly clueless too. I start to understand what Matt Green is complaining about - are there a lot of rabbits in the UK scene? I dressed as an escaped mental patient for the event and talked Dave into giving me a small spot prize of a booster for the best costume. James' sinister dark glasses and lightweight suit looked the part too - just right for the Giovanni. Thanks to Dave for running the event. Let's hope that Bloodlines creates some more clans so that there will be even more players for the next one. Andrew

"Andrew S. Davidson" <a...@csi.com> wrote in message news:7EB3ED14ABE0CBDC.ABCCD589...@lp.airnews.net... > > Following recent discussions, I was naturally interested in the > shuffling procedure. I didn't see any mana-weaving here (the French > Shadowfist players were another matter). I elected to shuffle my > prey's deck each time but didn't see anyone else do this. Shuffling ? fine. > There was no problem with James. His deck was unsleeved and a couple > of quick riffles passed without comment. In the second game, my > prey's deck was encased in black Ultra-Pro sleeves. These were quite > sticky but I was able to corner-riffle these fairly well. My > grand-prey grumbled that I was bending the cards and that my prey > could insist that I shuffle so as not to damage the cards, i.e. by > overhand shuffling. I told him that he was wrong and did a third > riffle for good measure. Bending cards ? not fine. I spoke to a few players on Saturday who were understandably pissed at having their cards bent on Friday. I agree that a damn good shuffle or cut is in order before everyone starts, but shuffling the decks corner style 3, 4, 5 times is a bit much don't you think ? What about the factor 6 or 8 method where you deal a deck into 6 or 8 face down piles to shuffle? I wouldn't mind this *IF* you asked me early enough and didn't delay the game. Again this would seem a little anal to me, but whatever fills your bag and all that :o) Part of the appeal of VTES for me is the fact that (rightly or wrongly) the level of honourable and trustworthy opponents you come across is a lot higher than certain other card games. I know that decks can be stacked, cards rigged etc. but if a player is determined to cheat, shuffling their cards (especially in this less than respectable way) ain't gonna stop them. If I can see players shuffling their decks before starting I'm usually happy. > Thanks to Dave for running the event. Let's hope that Bloodlines > creates some more clans so that there will be even more players for > the next one. Could you not play on Saturday ? I was looking forward to a few rounds with you. Rob.

Rob Treasure wrote: > Shuffling ? fine. > Bending cards ? not fine. If you don't want a malicious/overzealous/careless predator bending your cards, call a judge over to randomize your deck instead. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:57:05 +0100, Rob Treasure wrote: >Bending cards ? not fine. > >I spoke to a few players on Saturday who were understandably pissed at >having their cards bent on Friday. I agree that a damn good shuffle or cut >is in order before everyone starts, but shuffling the decks corner style 3, >4, 5 times is a bit much don't you think ? It's nothing. WotC usually used good card stock for their cards. One test of a counterfeit Magic card was to bend it so that the top touched the bottom. It shouldn't crease when you do this and should have enough "snap" to easily flatten out again. The cards are made in this way precisely so that you can riffle-shuffle them - it's expected. If you put them in heavy sleeves then they are nearly indestructible. Even if they are not, this is just too bad - shuffling is a mandatory part of the game. I've just tested a WW card from SW - bent it double and it went back fine. >What about the factor 6 or 8 method where you deal a deck into 6 or 8 face >down piles to shuffle? I wouldn't mind this *IF* you asked me early enough >and didn't delay the game. Again this would seem a little anal to me, but >whatever fills your bag and all that :o) Pile-shuffling is commonly used in Shadowfist where it's the easiest method of dealing with the large (100+) decks of sleeved cards you often get there. But it's not random and so can't be relied on as a proper shuffle. >Part of the appeal of VTES for me is the fact that (rightly or wrongly) the >level of honourable and trustworthy opponents you come across is a lot >higher than certain other card games. I know that decks can be stacked, >cards rigged etc. but if a player is determined to cheat, shuffling their >cards (especially in this less than respectable way) ain't gonna stop them. I saw someone blatantly stacking their deck at the last VTES tournament I played in (at Watford). My impression is that VTES has a similar ethos to Magic because of its common heritage and I am therefore not inclined to trust anyone - cheating is certainly commonplace in Magic. >If I can see players shuffling their decks before starting I'm usually >happy. Me too. I was just putting the VEKN rules to the test. >Could you not play on Saturday? I was looking forward to a few rounds with >you. I was running another event that afternoon and then playing in another event in the evening. In any case, the ordinary UK event seems too political for my taste. If I'm going to play that sort of game, I'd rather play the Survivor CCG which is comparatively fast, clean and simple. There you decide who to throw to the sharks without all the fiddly mechanics of VTES. Amounts to much the same thing - I expect you'd be good at it too. Andrew

In message <05D24D3346C9A88D.1BC1470C...@lp.airnew s.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes >My impression is that VTES has a >similar ethos to Magic because of its common heritage and I am >therefore not inclined to trust anyone - cheating is certainly >commonplace in Magic. The "common heritage" of V:TES is nigh-on nothing, from where I stand. It uses some similar terms - as did many other games that came out at the time, or close approximations thereof (e.g. bowing is basically tapping etc.) - but beyond that, the cross-over game-wise and ethos-wise is extremely limited. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Close your eyes so you don't feel them EBD690ECD7A1F They don't need to see you cry B457CA213D7E6 I can't promise I will heal you, but if you want to I will try 68C3695D623D5D

>It's nothing. WotC usually used good card stock for their cards. One >test of a counterfeit Magic card was to bend it so that the top >touched the bottom. It shouldn't crease when you do this and should >have enough "snap" to easily flatten out again. The cards are made in >this way precisely so that you can riffle-shuffle them - it's >expected. If you put them in heavy sleeves then they are nearly >indestructible. Even if they are not, this is just too bad - >shuffling is a mandatory part of the game. > >I've just tested a WW card from SW - bent it double and it went back >fine. So next time you play, you wouldn't mind someone bending all of your Deranges, Shotgun Rituals, Succubi, Disarms, and Black Metamorphoses in half just to "verify" their authenticity. Anyway, as you said, it shouldn't *hurt* the cards... Halcyan 2

> So next time you play, you wouldn't mind someone bending all of your Deranges, > Shotgun Rituals, Succubi, Disarms, and Black Metamorphoses in half just to > "verify" their authenticity. Anyway, as you said, it shouldn't *hurt* the > cards... For all of you in the U.K. who play with Andrew Davidson in the future, this is your homework assignment. I don't want to hear that any of you have been slacking... :p Sorrow --- "Our fathers were our models for God. If they bailed, what does that tell you about God? You have to be prepared for the possibility that God does not like you." - Tyler Durden

<< There was no problem with James. His deck was unsleeved and a couple of quick riffles passed without comment. In the second game, my prey's deck was encased in black Ultra-Pro sleeves. These were quite sticky but I was able to corner-riffle these fairly well. My grand-prey grumbled that I was bending the cards and that my prey could insist that I shuffle so as not to damage the cards, i.e. by overhand shuffling. I told him that he was wrong and did a third riffle for good measure. >> Another thing or two. Let me also now take the opportunity to say that I, being highly materialistic, take care of my cards very well (I've often found that I have more empathy towards my material possessions than I do towards other people! =) May the gods help *anyone* who dares to damage or otherwise ruin the sanctity of my Jyhad/VTES cards (or anything else I own for that matter)! In fact, I'm still quite a bit annoyed because at the last tournament I played at, during a prolonged final round, someone was looking through and sorting my ash heap. The problem was he must have had dirty hands or something because he tarnished the backs of most of my card sleeves. Grrrr... In addition, I literally *wince* every time I see someone do a real riffle shuffle. My card empathy is even in effect when people are shuffling their own cards (and I often tell people in my playgroup that they should be treating their cards better!). Halcyan 2

> In addition, I literally *wince* every time I see someone do a real riffle > shuffle. My card empathy is even in effect when people are shuffling their own > cards (and I often tell people in my playgroup that they should be treating > their cards better!). This is how I always shuffle my cards. With very few exceptions (and these are from other people handling my cards), none of the cards I use have nary a scratch, tear or bend. Sorrow --- "I am Jack's inflamed sense of rejection." - Narrator

"Andrew S. Davidson" wrote: > Pile-shuffling is commonly used in Shadowfist where it's the easiest > method of dealing with the large (100+) decks of sleeved cards you > often get there. But it's not random and so can't be relied on as a > proper shuffle. I strongly disagree. Pile shuffling *alone* is not very random. You simply reorder the original set of cards into some new set/predictable order. However, think in terms of a pile shuffle, followed by a few random cuts, followed by another pile shuffle. The ultimately result will differ immensely and quite unpredictable based on the exact spot of each of the intervening cuts. Pile shuffle then cut at card numbers 22 and 57, then pile shuffle again, then cut at card #45 then pile shuffle a third time will differ a great deal than if the cuts were made at card number 23, 58, and 46 respectively. A slight variance in pile shuffles goes a long way in randomness. Fred

Sorrow wrote: > > > In addition, I literally *wince* every time I see someone do a real riffle > > shuffle. My card empathy is even in effect when people are shuffling their > own > > cards (and I often tell people in my playgroup that they should be > treating > > their cards better!). > > This is how I always shuffle my cards. With very few exceptions > (and these are from other people handling my cards), none of the > cards I use have nary a scratch, tear or bend. > I believe this is the point that is trying to be made. All of us want our cards to be kept in a nice condition. We do, but sometimes other people don't. Last year I went to a Magic tournement where one of my oppenents riffle shuffled my deck 7 times between each and every game in the duel, and whenever I went searching my library. He was quite forceful about it, and I am glad that I had them in Deck Protectors. His cards were not, and you could see the edges wearing somewhat. I personally only cut a someones deck, never do a further shuffle, although it is within the rules to do so. I think it may be courteous to ask before riffle shuffling someones deck, as otherwise it may offend, and, when it does happen, cause the edges of the cards to wear. Just my 10pence worth Andy Setite Ruler of Cambridge www.geocities.com/setitesuk -- Whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outragous fortune, or get fat on chocolate cake, eat the cake, life is too short to worry!

On Fri, 07 Sep 2001 09:12:05 +0100, Andy Brown wrote: >Last year I went to a Magic tournement where one of my oppenents riffle >shuffled my deck 7 times between each and every game in the duel, and >whenever I went searching my library. He was quite forceful about it, >and I am glad that I had them in Deck Protectors. His cards were not, >and you could see the edges wearing somewhat. There are many CCG players who don't use sleeves. One reason for this is so that they can riffle shuffle their own decks easily. This is the normal state of affairs in a card game. The use of sleeves is a somewhat bizarre introduction to card gaming, caused by the collecting aspect. I am surprised to find that Vampire players are especially prissy about this as the cards are fairly cheap and not especially collectable. >I personally only cut a someones deck, never do a further shuffle, >although it is within the rules to do so. I think it may be courteous >to ask before riffle shuffling someones deck, as otherwise it may >offend, and, when it does happen, cause the edges of the cards to wear. A unsleeved card will suffer all sorts of wear and tear - just touching the cards with sweaty, dirty hands will do more damage than I care for myself. If you don't want your cards damaged by shuffling then use hard sleeves. If you want to keep them in Mint condition then don't play with them at all - keep them in a binder. Non volenti fit injuria. Andrew

In message <7974F70EB782FB2C.050B16C2...@lp.airnew s.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes >The use of sleeves is a >somewhat bizarre introduction to card gaming, caused by the collecting >aspect. I am surprised to find that Vampire players are especially >prissy about this as the cards are fairly cheap and not especially >collectable. Because of the NL aspect of the game, for one thing. In <X>, if you have 4 copies of a card, any spares are fine. In Jyhad, if you have 6 copies of a card, all of them are potentially playable in a deck, rather than 2 being marked up as "spare". There's also a marked demographic shift between V:TES and most other games, which may account for some changes. Magic is generally younger than V:TES. Perhaps the older V:TES population attributes more care to things. (Parallels with say parents vs children and their attitudes towards their belongings.) A lot of people also just like the cards. Sure, I can replace them but some of them are quite pretty. I know I've had numerous conversations with people over the years about such-and-such card being really cute, or liking what the artist did on this card with the eyes, or whatever. [ quoted text not captured ]

> or liking what the artist did on this card with the eyes, or whatever. mmmm, Aurora van Brande... Sorrow --- "This is my costume. I'm a homicidal maniac. They look just like everyone else." -- Wednesday Addams

"Andrew S. Davidson" wrote: > > On Fri, 07 Sep 2001 09:12:05 +0100, Andy Brown wrote: > There are many CCG players who don't use sleeves. One reason for this > is so that they can riffle shuffle their own decks easily. This is > the normal state of affairs in a card game. The use of sleeves is a > somewhat bizarre introduction to card gaming, caused by the collecting > aspect. I am surprised to find that Vampire players are especially > prissy about this as the cards are fairly cheap and not especially > collectable. Doesn't matter. You can't go to the grocery store and replace them like playing cards. Even the cheap Jyhad cards are a pain in the ass to find if not expensive to buy. It's like comparing cheap beer to water. It may be priced a whole lot closer to water than good beer, may even taste a lot more like it (in America, at least), but I still wouldn't use it to wash dishes. Fred

"Andrew S. Davidson" <a...@csi.com> wrote > There are many CCG players who don't use sleeves. One reason for this > is so that they can riffle shuffle their own decks easily. This is > the normal state of affairs in a card game. The use of sleeves is a > somewhat bizarre introduction to card gaming, caused by the collecting > aspect. I am surprised to find that Vampire players are especially > prissy about this as the cards are fairly cheap and not especially > collectable. Laugh out loud funny. Almost every card ever printed for Jyhad/V:tES is legal for play, and a great many of them (perhaps even a majority) are currently out of print, some probably forever. There are a great number of the game pieces for this game that cannot be acquired for less than $5 per, and many more which are not available by any reasonable definition. And if you think over $100 retail for a box of cards is "fairly cheap," then you've lost perspective on what "fairly cheap" means in any rational definition of game prices. And finally, since worn cards can be ruled as marked cards at the discretion of a tournament judge, or since you can be declared a cheater and disqualified because the only Conditionings you own happen to be Jyhad- backed, sleeves can become quite a priority if you wish to compete with a minimum of random interference. - Jason Bell

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3B95241A...@white-wolf.com>... > Rob Treasure wrote: > > Shuffling ? fine. > > Bending cards ? not fine. > > If you don't want a malicious/overzealous/careless predator bending your > cards, call a judge over to randomize your deck instead. I wonder if I could get a clarifiction here about riffle shuffling. Is it possible for your predator to insist upon riffle shuffling (either by themselves or via a judge?) It seems to me that riffle shuffling naturally lends itself to wear and tear on the cards and am somewhat worried about riffle shuffling being made part of the rules. I understand that DCI insist upon it as part of the rules and I can't help wondering if that has the dual advantage of preventing cheating whilst also providing a means for wearing out cards and hence improve sales by the player needing to replace them over time? I am all for the cards being random but surely that can be achieved by a series of cuts, overhand shuffles and a face down spread of the cards via a random number? I like to take good care of my cards without them having worn corners or having them bent. Is Mr Davidson correct in being able to insist upon riffle shuffling? Thank you for your clarification in this matter, Simon Burton aka Simidh

Simidh wrote: > > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3B95241A...@white-wolf.com>... > > Rob Treasure wrote: > > > Shuffling ? fine. > > > Bending cards ? not fine. > > > > If you don't want a malicious/overzealous/careless predator bending your > > cards, call a judge over to randomize your deck instead. > > I wonder if I could get a clarifiction here about riffle shuffling. Is > it possible for your predator to insist upon riffle shuffling (either > by themselves or via a judge?) Section 3.2 of the V:EKN rules details the shuffling rules. You can ask the judge to shuffle if you do not wish to pass that duty to your predator. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Jason Bell" <Jason...@mail.com> wrote in message news:<pCpm7.231323$TM5.44...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>... > Laugh out loud funny. > Almost every card ever printed for Jyhad/V:tES is legal for > play, and a great many of them (perhaps even a majority) > are currently out of print, some probably forever. > There are a great number of the game pieces for this > game that cannot be acquired for less than $5 per, and > many more which are not available by any reasonable > definition. And if you think over $100 retail for a > box of cards is "fairly cheap," then you've lost perspective > on what "fairly cheap" means in any rational definition > of game prices. And finally, since worn cards can be > ruled as marked cards at the discretion of a tournament > judge, or since you can be declared a cheater and disqualified > because the only Conditionings you own happen to be Jyhad- > backed, sleeves can become quite a priority if you wish to > compete with a minimum of random interference. I gotta agree with you about this, in principle, but who here on the group is actually buying the majority of there cards, if any at all, at retail? Also, I have never seen anyone called on marked cards ever, not even my "massively creased Bum's Rush". I just don't think there are that many jerks out there playing Jyhad, but maybe there are now. I don't know. Also, if all your Conditionings, Tastes or Smudges are Jyhad backed, then shouldn't you mix some other Jyhad cards in there just so that they aren't catching a cheater rather than just calling you one.:) Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

"XZealot" <x_ze...@bellsouth.net> wrote > "Jason Bell" <Jason...@mail.com> wrote > > Laugh out loud funny. > > Almost every card ever printed for Jyhad/V:tES is legal for > > play, and a great many of them (perhaps even a majority) > > are currently out of print, some probably forever. > > There are a great number of the game pieces for this > > game that cannot be acquired for less than $5 per, and > > many more which are not available by any reasonable > > definition. And if you think over $100 retail for a > > box of cards is "fairly cheap," then you've lost perspective > > on what "fairly cheap" means in any rational definition > > of game prices. And finally, since worn cards can be > > ruled as marked cards at the discretion of a tournament > > judge, or since you can be declared a cheater and disqualified > > because the only Conditionings you own happen to be Jyhad- > > backed, sleeves can become quite a priority if you wish to > > compete with a minimum of random interference. > > I gotta agree with you about this, in principle, but who here on the > group is actually buying the majority of there cards, if any at all, > at retail? You are right, but I wanted to limit my discussion, so I figured I'd stick with the pricing on the packages. The principle is the same at $60 for a box of cards. The only boxes I currently feel at all comfortable buying (beyond the first box, when the cards first hit the market, yeah so I'm a sucker too), are the base set and Dark Sovereigns, at $20-$30 each, so, not coincidentally, those sets are the only ones for which I have my fill of cards (mostly). And I'm still not willing to shell out that Jackson to go fishing to replace overplayed and overworn rares. Sleeves are a great deal cheaper, and the ones they make these days are surprisingly durable. > Also, I have never seen anyone called on marked cards > ever, not even my "massively creased Bum's Rush". I just don't think > there are that many jerks out there playing Jyhad, but maybe there are > now. I don't know. Neither have I, but I'm not willing to risk my next tournament on the character of a stranger or on the call of a judge. > Also, if all your Conditionings, Tastes or Smudges are Jyhad backed, > then shouldn't you mix some other Jyhad cards in there just so that > they aren't catching a cheater rather than just calling you one.:) I don't know the exact calculus used to determine how card back organization can lead to a ruling of marked cards, I assume that it too is a judgement call, so again I'm better off behind sleeves. The next crypt vampire is Vampire and not Jyhad, so I am assured that it is not Camille. Does that give me enough information to have gained an unfair advantage? I don't know, but I don't want to have to find out the unpleasant way. It was good to meet you at DragonCon, XZealot. I'll try to make it again next year, but I hope to run into some of you guys again before then. - Jason Bell

On 9 Sep 2001 06:08:57 -0700, Simidh wrote: >I am all for the cards being random but surely that can be achieved by a >series of cuts, overhand shuffles These are much slower than a riffle shuffle for the same amount of randomisation. It takes about 2000 overhand shuffles to properly shuffle a 52 card deck and presumably many more for a 90-card VTES deck. >and a face down spread of the cards via a random number? Something of this sort is probably the most random method but I have never seen it done. As with overhand shuffling, it's not practical within the time allowed. >I like to take good care of my cards without them having >worn corners or having them bent. If your cards are in good sleeves then you have little to worry about. I routinely riffle shuffle my own decks and my cards are fine. BTW, I was at a Doomtown tournament at the Card Mart today and one of the players asked if I'd read about the shuffling controversy. I was surprised that he'd heard of this thread but it turned out that he was talking about a similar fuss on the Warlord list. This crops up so often that it needs to be drummed into folk that stacking your deck is cheating. In the VTES context, what is the penalty for a player presenting his deck to his predator for shuffling when it has not been sufficiently randomised? Loss of game? Would the predator get a VP for this? Andrew

On Sat, 08 Sep 2001 14:07:17 GMT, Jason Bell wrote: >There are a great number of the game pieces for this >game that cannot be acquired for less than $5 per, and >many more which are not available by any reasonable >definition. And if you think over $100 retail for a >box of cards is "fairly cheap," then you've lost perspective >on what "fairly cheap" means in any rational definition >of game prices. It's a relative term. At Gencon, I sold a box of Magic cards for $800 and I expect that the dealer will be selling it on for even more. I bought boxes of cards for various games there - Shadowfist, Doomtown, Mythos and VTES. The VTES box was the cheapest of these at $35. The cards are so cheap that I don't put them into sleeves straight away. That's when they are most at risk - when they are not in decks. When I opened the box before Gencon UK I dropped a big stack of the cards on the floor but just blew the dust off them and put them back - they are still in good shape. They'll pick up more damage when they're in my card boxes though - being handled when I'm deck building. The worst thing is dinging the edges with my fingernails when I'm sorting through them. It's not a real problem though - they're still perfectly playable and, short of an act of God, will last longer than I do. Let's get a sense of perspective here - what really matters is looking after our own minds and bodies, not keeping some pasteboard looking good. I'm quite horrified that smoking is allowed at any VEKN event. If mobile phones are forbidden and players are allowed to call judges to shuffle their precious decks then let's protect our lungs too. Andrew

"Andrew S. Davidson" wrote: > In the VTES context, what is the penalty for a player > presenting his deck to his predator for shuffling when it has not been > sufficiently randomised? Loss of game? Would the predator get a VP > for this? Warning, per the VEKN Penalty Guidelines section 112. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3B9B9ACB...@white-wolf.com>... > Simidh wrote: > > > > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3B95241A...@white-wolf.com>... > > > Rob Treasure wrote: > > > > Shuffling ? fine. > > > > Bending cards ? not fine. > > > > > > If you don't want a malicious/overzealous/careless predator bending your > > > cards, call a judge over to randomize your deck instead. > > > > I wonder if I could get a clarifiction here about riffle shuffling. Is > > it possible for your predator to insist upon riffle shuffling (either > > by themselves or via a judge?) > > Section 3.2 of the V:EKN rules details the shuffling rules. > You can ask the judge to shuffle if you do not wish to pass that duty to > your predator. Yes, I had a read of that and it mentioned 'Regardless of the method used to shuffle, players' decks must be sufficiently randomized.' I couldn't find any mention of riffle shuffling being mandatory though, yet Mr Davidson seemed fairly insistent upon this method in the tournament he was at. If I am faced with another playing making a similar insistence on riffle shuffling am I within my rights to to have a judge, or the predator, shuffle by another means rather than riffle shuffling. (am not keen on either my predator or a judge riffle shuffling my deck) Your answer seemed to clarify that they can insist on the shuffling, but it is specifically 'riffle shuffling' I am enquiring about? Sorry for the need for clarification. >;-> Simidh

[ quoted text not captured ] That's up to the judge (to determine what is "sufficiently randomized"). [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <0UYm7.258071$J37.68...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>, Jason Bell <Jason...@mail.com> writes >I don't know the exact calculus used to determine how card back >organization can lead to a ruling of marked cards, I assume that >it too is a judgement call, so again I'm better off behind sleeves. >The next crypt vampire is Vampire and not Jyhad, so I am assured >that it is not Camille. Does that give me enough information to have >gained an unfair advantage? I don't know, but I don't want to >have to find out the unpleasant way. Whilst I am usually quite happy with mixed back libraries (in that I've never seen one I have felt was cheating etc.), I'm usually of the opinion that asking players to sleeve their crypt (if mixed) saves bother. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <CDD4D90C7A55B230.FC1630A9...@lp.airnew s.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes >It's a relative term. At Gencon, I sold a box of Magic cards for $800 >and I expect that the dealer will be selling it on for even more. I >bought boxes of cards for various games there - Shadowfist, Doomtown, >Mythos and VTES. The VTES box was the cheapest of these at $35. > >The cards are so cheap that I don't put them into sleeves straight >away. Cheap, yes, but not necessarily easy to obtain. My crypt packed with Camille Devereux and my library packed with Rotschreck will probably not thank anyone for damaging them, especially if I don't have the resources to buy boxes over the net. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Jason Bell" <Jason...@mail.com> wrote in news:0UYm7.258071$J37.68437658 @typhoon.southeast.rr.com: > (mostly). And I'm still not willing to shell out that Jackson to > go fishing to replace overplayed and overworn rares. > Sleeves are a great deal cheaper, and the ones they make these > days are surprisingly durable. Without detracting from the benefits of sleeves any; how have you managed to produce any overplayed/overworn rares? Many of my cards show a slight bit of 'edge wear', and it's quite amusing to put some of my Bum's Rush next to, say, my Fortitude to see the difference, but it hardly reduces the playability in the slightest. Oh, and I riffle-shuffle my cards lots (for everyone else out there). I get more "bend" in my cards from just having the damn things stored in a box in Georgia's humidity. But seriously, these are NOT the crown jewels. They're a game. They're meant to be played with, touched, and eventually, yes, to wear out. If you want to collect, get a binder, put one of each in for your collection, and play with the rest. > I don't know the exact calculus used to determine how card back > organization can lead to a ruling of marked cards, I assume that In a library with mixed-back vampire/jyhad cards, there is a 60-40 rule that used to apply and I'm assuming still does -- no more than 60% of your library can be of one card-back type. I've come up against this since I began playing tournament V:TES and including DS/AH/Sabbat vampires, since all of my original cards were Jyhad-backed. All three of my D*C tourney decks were compliant with the 60/40 rule, which is pretty damned tricky in a Cryptic Mission/Burst of Sunlight/Weather Control deck. Thank god I had a pile of Sabbat CMs. Even if you come under the official rule, it is still possible to "mark" cards by including, say, nothing but Jyhad bleed and Vampire stealth. I usually make sure I have a few of each in any given "category", so that anyone wishing to make that complain can be shown that I really have -no- idea what's coming up next. This is as close as it ever gets to a judgement call. > it too is a judgement call, so again I'm better off behind sleeves. While the 60/40 rule applies to one's crypt, too, I routinely sleeve my crypts. Partly, it provides convenient separation when i'm using my clear plastic deck-boxes (they hold two decks each), and partly, it has to do with your below statement... > The next crypt vampire is Vampire and not Jyhad, so I am assured > that it is not Camille. Does that give me enough information to have > gained an unfair advantage? I don't know, but I don't want to > have to find out the unpleasant way. Yes, it DOES give you enough information, although the only time the top of your crypt matters is when you're considering spending a pool to go looking for a vampire. The transfers are irrelevant, but the pool is not; anything you can learn about that vampire will help you, because it's much easier to remember what 12 vampires are in your crypt than what 80 cards are in your library. And if that decision helps you decide whether or not to spend a pool, ... well, one pool matters. =) -- Derek AGITATOR, n. A statesman who shakes the fruit trees of his neighbors -- to dislodge the worms.

Derek Ray wrote: > "Jason Bell" <Jason...@mail.com> wrote : > > I don't know the exact calculus used to determine how card back > > organization can lead to a ruling of marked cards, I assume that > > In a library with mixed-back vampire/jyhad cards, there is a 60-40 rule > that used to apply and I'm assuming still does -- no more than 60% of your > library can be of one card-back type. I've come up against this since I No. The rule now is "sufficiently mixed" [VEKN 4.1] > Even if you come under the official rule, it is still possible to "mark" > cards by including, say, nothing but Jyhad bleed and Vampire stealth. I No. This is not sufficiently mixed. > While the 60/40 rule applies to one's crypt, too, I routinely sleeve my > crypts. Partly, it provides convenient separation when i'm using my clear > plastic deck-boxes (they hold two decks each), and partly, it has to do > with your below statement... The crypt must also be sufficiently mixed. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Andrew S. Davidson wrote: > I'm quite horrified that smoking is allowed at any VEKN event. Why? In most cases, local customs dictate whether smoking is acceptable or not. If you're that worried about it, don't go to tournaments held in a pub. Personally, I like having the option to chain smoke until my opponents drop dead from lung cancer and I sweep the table. Regards, Noal

>Why? In most cases, local customs dictate whether smoking is >acceptable or not. If you're that worried about it, don't go to >tournaments held in a pub. Personally, I like having the option to >chain smoke until my opponents drop dead from lung cancer and I sweep >the table. Speaking of this, are there any rules or regulations regarding where a tournament may be held? For example, some pubs might not allow people under 21 to go in (and thus they can't play the tournament). Or there might be some environments (such as heavy smoking of cigarettes or...other stuff...) that might be a heavy deterrent to participants. While this might not be a problem for local tournaments, I'm sure it would be interesting if some Regional Qualifier was held at an opium den, a brothel, a high-security prison, or some other unsavory location... Halcyan 2

....I'm sure it would be interesting if some Regional > Qualifier was held at an opium den, a brothel, a high-security prison, or some > other unsavory location... > Unsavory... That must mean "good". Themes for said locations. Opium Den- Followers of Set becomes the "in" clan to play Brothel- Taking the pool for having the edge is not the only optional thing. High-Security Prison- "Boy, if you don't finish all three rounds of this tournament, then you gonna spend 3 days in the hole." Some other Unsavory Location- Sleeze, Sleeze, and more Sleeze, Whoo- Hoo Now, to take this and write a newsletter around it. [ quoted text not captured ]

> It was good to meet you at DragonCon, XZealot. > I'll try to make it again next year, but I hope to run into > some of you guys again before then. 'twas a pleasure to see you as well, perhaps next year we will actually play each other. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Noal McDonald" <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote > Personally, I like having the option to > chain smoke until my opponents drop dead from lung cancer and I sweep > the table. Noal doesn't even smoke. He's trying to Jedi Mind Trick you all so that in a tournament you'll think he's jonesing for a smoke when he's actually at the top of his game and faking it :) Cheers, WES

[ quoted text not captured ] as long as i can riffle-shuffle all their cigarettes 7 times, i'd be more than happy to have a smoker as a prey. O:) salem.

[ quoted text not captured ] Given the time it takes to die off from smoking, Don't you think that this could be a REALLY Long game? Raille

Halcyan 2 wrote: > Speaking of this, are there any rules or regulations regarding where a > tournament may be held? For example, some pubs might not allow people under 21 > to go in (and thus they can't play the tournament). Or there might be some > environments (such as heavy smoking of cigarettes or...other stuff...) that > might be a heavy deterrent to participants. While this might not be a problem > for local tournaments, I'm sure it would be interesting if some Regional > Qualifier was held at an opium den, a brothel, a high-security prison, or some > other unsavory location... > > Halcyan 2 If we played at any of these locations, do you think we would get ANY playing done? Well maybe at the prison, so long as we stayed out of the showers. Raille

In message <3B9DE2DC...@mich.com>, Raille <rai...@mich.com> writes >> Why? In most cases, local customs dictate whether smoking is >> acceptable or not. If you're that worried about it, don't go to >> tournaments held in a pub. Personally, I like having the option to >> chain smoke until my opponents drop dead from lung cancer and I sweep >> the table. > >Given the time it takes to die off from smoking, Don't you think that >this could be a REALLY Long game? Tch. Some people just have no staying power. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3B9DE336...@mich.com>, Raille <rai...@mich.com> writes >If we played at any of these locations, do you think we would get ANY >playing done? Well maybe at the prison, so long as we stayed out of the >showers. You bad man. You just be glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that, or I'd be putting in a law suit against you for a new keyboard. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > > In message <3B9DE336...@mich.com>, Raille <rai...@mich.com> writes > >If we played at any of these locations, do you think we would get ANY > >playing done? Well maybe at the prison, so long as we stayed out of the > >showers. > > You bad man. You just be glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read > that, or I'd be putting in a law suit against you for a new keyboard. > Why thanks for the compliment. This is why I end up playing Settites a lot. ;) Raille

On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, James Coupe wrote: > In message <3B9DE2DC...@mich.com>, Raille <rai...@mich.com> writes > > > >Given the time it takes to die off from smoking, Don't you think that > >this could be a REALLY Long game? > > Tch. Some people just have no staying power. we had a 5+final round tourney here years ago. it hurt. a lot. was damn good fun, though. yes, it was all on one day. salem.