[LSJ] Veil of darkness with action modifiers and traps

About "Veil of Darkness": if the first discipline card a vampire plays is an action modifier card, and the top card is a master card, can you play the same action modifier again? If the card nullified by the "veil of darkness" was a combat card, would it reset a "Trap" anyway? Thanks a lot

[ quoted text not captured ] Veil of Darkness says: "...and the original card has no effect", _not_ "the original card is cancelled" or similar, it would seem the card does count as played, so, no and yes. --Colin McGuigan

Colin McGuigan expounded: [ quoted text not captured ] So both a) resetting trap and b) preventing further play of the same card are not effects? certainly possible for some values of "effects" but not obvious.

> So both > a) resetting trap and > b) preventing further play of the same card > > are not effects? certainly possible for some values of "effects" but not > obvious. They are not the effects of the cards. They are the effects imposed on other cards. You play a combat card. It has no effect, but you still played it. Trap's effect kicks in. You play an action modifier. It has no effect. However, the next time you want to play the same action modifier you will not be able to (because the rules restrict you from playing an action modifier or reaction card that has already been played by the same minion, regardless of effect). Bye, Daneel

However, I DO know (readt it somewhere) that if "veil of darkness" nullifies an action card, you dont get tapped and you can play the same action again! Why would a action modifier be different? And since you dont get tapped, maybe trap doesn't reset either? dan...@eposta.hu (Daneel) wrote in message news:<a23a105e.04060...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] They are effects, but not effects of the canceled card. They are effects of Trap and the rules, respectively, that are "triggered" on the play of a card, whether that card was canceled as it was played or not. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

gabusanvtes wrote: > However, I DO know (readt it somewhere) that if "veil of darkness" > nullifies an action card, you dont get tapped and you can play the > same action again! Why would a action modifier be different? And since > you dont get tapped, maybe trap doesn't reset either? You're referring to this: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=40BC6002.9060808%40white-wolf.com Mmmm. I'd see it arguable that tapping the vampire is an effect of the action card, so I can see the no-tap. But, yes, the "can take the same action again" doesn't jive with the "can't play the same action modifier" again. So let's wait for LSJ to explain. =) --Colin McGuigan

gpa...@hotmail.com (gabusanvtes) wrote in message news:<2687136c.04060...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Because the rules do not restrict action cards by "card played" but rather by action "performed". The rules restrict action modifiers by card played. Trap also worked on cards played. [ quoted text not captured ]

Colin McGuigan <magu...@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote : > gabusanvtes wrote: > > However, I DO know (readt it somewhere) that if "veil of darkness" > > nullifies an action card, you dont get tapped and you can play the > > same action again! Why would a action modifier be different? And since > > you dont get tapped, maybe trap doesn't reset either? > > Mmmm. I'd see it arguable that tapping the vampire is an effect of the > action card, so I can see the no-tap. But, yes, the "can take the same > action again" doesn't jive with the "can't play the same action > modifier" again. > > So let's wait for LSJ to explain. =) The prohibition on repeating actions is on performing the same action twice, not on playing the same card twice. When the card is played and canceled, the card is played and the action is not performed. Being not performed, the action can be take "again" (for the first time, that is) by the minion if he plays the action card again (the second play of the card effects the first performance of the action, assuming the second play is not canceled as well by yet another DI). The prohibition on action modifiers is on card played. Being played, even when canceled, is enough to count as being played. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > The prohibition on repeating actions is on performing the same action > twice, not on playing the same card twice. When the card is played and > canceled, the card is played and the action is not performed. But Veil of Darkness doesn't cancel the card, it says, it "has no effect". Does "has no effect" mean the same thing as cancelled? --Colin McGuigan

vte...@white-wolf.com (LSJ) wrote in message > They are effects, but not effects of the canceled card. > They are effects of Trap and the rules, respectively, that are > "triggered" on the play of a card, whether that card was canceled as > it was played or not. Thanks for the answer, but i am not sure of understanding what you are implying. Let me make this perfectly clear so I can state it has official in my play group: If a card is nullified by veil of darkness: 1) If the card was an action, the minion doesn't tap and he/she can play the same action again. 2) If the card was an action modifier, the minion CANNOT play the same action modifier again during that action (guess it would work the same for reactions...) 3) Any "trap" in effect during combat "resets" (card is considered played). Right?

Colin McGuigan <magu...@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote in message news:<q7qcnXmr18a...@speakeasy.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] IANLSJ, but for NRA to kick in, the action needs to have resolved. A minion who's action has been taken over by Mo1KF would be able to play that action again, to give another example.

Colin McGuigan <magu...@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote in message news:<q7qcnXmr18a...@speakeasy.net>... > You're referring to this: > > http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=40BC6002.9060808%40white-wolf.com > > Mmmm. I'd see it arguable that tapping the vampire is an effect of the > action card, so I can see the no-tap. But, yes, the "can take the same > action again" doesn't jive with the "can't play the same action > modifier" again. Taking any action taps the vampire (rules). The effect of the action card is the minion taking the given action. Playing the action card without effect does not allow a minion to take the action. Furthermore, the non-repeatability of actions only kick in if the action resolves in one way or another. Playing an action modifier works differently. The effect of the action modifier card is the modification of the action indicated by card text. If it's effects are cancelled, then they are not applied (but the card was played nevertheless, restricting the same minion from playing that same card again during the same action). Bye, Daneel

[ quoted text not captured ] What else would it mean? [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Right. The card was played but the effect was canceled. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: >> But Veil of Darkness doesn't cancel the card, it says, it "has no >> effect". >> >> Does "has no effect" mean the same thing as cancelled? > > What else would it mean? Arguably, there might be a difference with, say, DNR effects; a cancelled "Fake Out" is replaced immediately, but one that simply "has no effect" wouldn't be. So I'm verifying. --Colin McGuigan

Colin McGuigan wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] OK. Verified. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 21:30:53 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: >gabusanvtes wrote: >> vte...@white-wolf.com (LSJ) wrote in message >>>They are effects, but not effects of the canceled card. >>>They are effects of Trap and the rules, respectively, that are >>>"triggered" on the play of a card, whether that card was canceled as >>>it was played or not. >> >> Thanks for the answer, but i am not sure of understanding what you are >> implying. Let me make this perfectly clear so I can state it has >> official in my play group: >> >> If a card is nullified by veil of darkness: >> >> 1) If the card was an action, the minion doesn't tap and he/she can >> play the same action again. >> 2) If the card was an action modifier, the minion CANNOT play the same >> action modifier again during that action (guess it would work the same >> for reactions...) >> 3) Any "trap" in effect during combat "resets" (card is considered >> played). >> >> Right? > >Right. The card was played but the effect was canceled. note that if a bonding, conditioning, threats, etc were played, you would still be allowed to play another action modifier to increase your bleed. (just not the same one as you originally played). salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email) "I like to play the field"-LSJ

salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > note that if a bonding, conditioning, threats, etc were played, you > would still be allowed to play another action modifier to increase > your bleed. (just not the same one as you originally played). Interesting. Then, if "veil of darkness" cancels a "drawing out the beast" or any other combat card that can only be played once per round or once per combat, you would be able to play another? If yes, i understand that direct intervention and Veil of darkness have sightly different effects, right?

[ quoted text not captured ] Almost. The first Drawing Out the Beast was played (but cancelled), so card text on the second one prevents you from playing it.