Hey folks. I was told by someone that he was Giovanni and when I
checked the card sure enough the symbol was very faint but definately
there.
So is this card a Giovanni only card?
Since the printing is so faint some arguements will ensue when people
use it in other decks. Also I do not think very many will find it
especially useful in a Giovanni deck because of other Necromancy
cards. Other decks though it could be useful.
Rory
The Ref at refp...@best.com
I would support this as a Giovanni only card, even though we didn't see
the symbol on it
initially we now require it among our group of players to use. The
Giovanni at this point need
what little bit of an edge they can get and Ambrosious is a really nifty
Ally (only takes
aggrivated damage!) who is really hard to take down.
> refp...@best.com (Rory) wrote in article <4qkr5f$5...@nntp1.best.com>...[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <01bb6191.b5b04180$e067...@IZZY.bernie.izzy.net> "Bernard Bresnahan" <Ber...@IZZY.NET> writes:
> I would support this as a Giovanni only card, even though we didn't see
>the symbol on it
>initially we now require it among our group of players to use. The
>Giovanni at this point need
>what little bit of an edge they can get and Ambrosious is a really nifty
>Ally (only takes
>aggrivated damage!) who is really hard to take down.
Well, is he affected by steal blood strikes or not? If he is then he is too
easy for Tremere and Followers of Set to take down. I don't particularly see
the Ferryman having blood like other allies do.
On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Rory wrote:
> Date: Tue, 25 JUN 1996 05:06:01 GMT
> From: Rory <refp...@best.com>
> Newgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
> Subject: Re: The Ferryman; to be or not to be Giovanni?>
> On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 01:52:09 -0400, "Bernard Bresnahan"
> <Ber...@IZZY.NET> wrote:
>
> > I would support this as a Giovanni only card, even though we didn't see
> >the symbol on it
> >initially we now require it among our group of players to use. The
> >Giovanni at this point need
> >what little bit of an edge they can get and Ambrosious is a really nifty
> >Ally (only takes
> >aggrivated damage!) who is really hard to take down.
>> I just question how useful he is to them since they have Necromancy.
> I don't know the discipline that well but I seem to remember that they
> have several cards and Vampires who can pull things out of the Ash
> Heap.
> Of course, if others can do this even with a 3 turn limit with this
> card it does weaken them. Its like the concealed weapon vs. disguise
> card. If concealed weapon is a disciplinless card then it really
> weakens the disguised weapon and obfuscate discipline since everyone
> can pull out most weapons. Disguised weapon is just not that much
> better.> Rory
> The Ref at refp...@best.com
>
>
>
Well that is very true. But then again there is the story thing to
consider. In V:tM Giovanni are the only clan associated with speaking to
the dead. In fact Necromancy is the discipline they use to do just that.
All other vampires are completley oblivious (no pun intended for wraith
fans) to anything going on in the spirit world and have no ability to
percieve it except through necromancy. If anything the ferryman should be
a necromancy thing (even if he is an ally). But I think it was not made
so for the sake of game balance.
**********************************************************************
"...I'm just a hard-working girl trying to make it in a man's world."
-Catwoman (Issue #30)
***************************************
Dharia McGrew
damc...@mhc.mtholyoke.edu
and of course.....(in other words, LOOK AT IT!!!!)
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~damcgrew
**********************************************************************
In article <4qli84$g...@nntp1.best.com> refp...@best.com (Rory) writes:
>I just question how useful he is to them since they have Necromancy.
>I don't know the discipline that well but I seem to remember that they
>have several cards and Vampires who can pull things out of the Ash
>Heap.
>Of course, if others can do this even with a 3 turn limit with this
>card it does weaken them. Its like the concealed weapon vs. disguise
>card.
Hardly! Look at the most common Giovanni retainer, the Zombie. With three or
two Pathos counters on him, the Zombie adds 1 damage per round of close
combat, and when he gets down to one Pathos counter, the vampire with the
Zombie burns him for two blood! Then the Ferryman brings him back!
Try doing _that_ with Carlotta Giovanni! In fact, it would take Carlotta and
Regina together, 17 pool worth of influence, to pull that stunt with two
actions and a discarded card.
Mark Amidon,
Nosferatu-in-training,
Communing with the ancestors
The Corrupter wrote:
>
> On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Daniel Hoffman wrote:
>
> > Well, is he affected by steal blood strikes or not? If he is then he is too
> > easy for Tremere and Followers of Set to take down. I don't particularly see
> > the Ferryman having blood like other allies do.
>> Probably a good way to fix this is that Ambrosius is only affected by
> aggravated damage. Stealing and burning blood effects do not harm him.
But I assume that a blood to water would still dispose of him.. becuase it
doesn't do any damage per se.. just burns the ally....
WyldStar
>
> @ The Corrupter - Adrian Lee Sullivan @ GAT/CS/WS R+++* r(+)>++
> # Gamer Coffee-Addict Scripter Author # C(+++)$ USX+$ N++ e+*
> @#$ Comments ? sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu $#@ tv(+)> X++ b++(+++)
> @#$ <http://cslab.uwlax.edu/~sulli_al/jyhad> $#@ PS+&-+ PE&-&++ z*+?
In article <4qs30c$e...@nntp1.best.com> refp...@best.com (Rory) writes:
>On Wed, 26 Jun 1996 02:08:02 GMT, fe...@hearth.ultranet.com (Mark
>Amidon) wrote:>>Hardly! Look at the most common Giovanni retainer, the Zombie. With three
>>or two Pathos counters on him, the Zombie adds 1 damage per round of close
>>combat, and when he gets down to one Pathos counter, the vampire with the
>>Zombie burns him for two blood! Then the Ferryman brings him back!>Actually the card does not go into your ash heap but out of the game
>and so nothing can bring it back anymore.
Zombie Giovanni/1 blood RETAINER WITH 2 LIFE
Only usable at close range. When the vampire with this retainer is in combat,
opposing minion takes 1 additional damage during strike resolution. As a +1
stealth action, the controlling vampire may burn the Zombie to gain 2 blood.
What makes you say that the card does not go into my ash heap? When the
controlling vampire burns the Zombie, it goes to the ash heap and any cards,
counters, etc., come off. This effectively nullifies the Pathos counters,
except to put a time limit on when the Zombie must be burned as an action.
(Of course, Brazil could intercept Gloria Giovanni's action to burn her
Zombie, and then the Pathos counters could run out and remove the Zombie from
the game. That'd be just like him, too.)
Mark Amidon,
Nosferatu-in-training,
Emulating that "maggots for teeth" look.
refp...@best.com (Rory) writes:
>On Wed, 26 Jun 1996 02:08:02 GMT, fe...@hearth.ultranet.com (Mark
>Amidon) wrote:>>I>>Hardly! Look at the most common Giovanni retainer, the Zombie. With three or
>>two Pathos counters on him, the Zombie adds 1 damage per round of close
>>combat, and when he gets down to one Pathos counter, the vampire with the
>>Zombie burns him for two blood! Then the Ferryman brings him back!>Actually the card does not go into your ash heap but out of the game
>and so nothing can bring it back anymore.
He is only removed from the game when he has *no* Pathos counters on
him. If you use the Zombie's own special ability (burn him to give
the employing vampire two blood) before the third Pathos counter is
removed, then the Zombie goes to the ash heap (and all Pathos Counters
fall off and are forgotten).
The point of contention here is whether or not the Wraith's ability
still applies if the target Retainer returns to the ash heap (i.e.,
would the Retainer who lost all his Pathos counters by going to the
ash heap still be bound by other game effects?). I'd say the Zombie
is free because he is out of play (in the ash heap) by the time he
loses his Pathos counters, and therefore not governed by card text
not expressly directed at ash-heap cards.
TOM?
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Working here is a nightmare.
http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | I'd quit but I need the sleep.
Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |
The Corrupter wrote:
>
> On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Daniel Hoffman wrote:
>
> > Well, is he affected by steal blood strikes or not? If he is then he is too
> > easy for Tremere and Followers of Set to take down. I don't particularly see
> > the Ferryman having blood like other allies do.
>
> Probably a good way to fix this is that Ambrosius is only affected by
> aggravated damage. Stealing and burning blood effects do not harm him.
>
Keep in mind also, that a Steal Blood action is *not* damage. i.e, it can't put people
into torpor if you steal more than they have, because it's just "burning blood".
I really don't know if a Steal Blood action would have any effect on any ally anyway.
Some of them don't have any blood to steal (Ambrosios and Ahkenaten just for example's
sake. But then again, the above two shouldn't even have "life" as they're both
dead...>sigh< :)
--
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Assamite |
| (assa...@inlink.com) |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| http://www.angelfire.com/pages0/assamite/index.html |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| If there were a Cell Z, I'd be a member of it... |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Rory wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 09:27:19 GMT, fe...@hearth.ultranet.com (Mark
> Amidon) wrote:
[Re: Wraith/ZOmbie combo]
> Thats being abusive and contrary to the spirit of the Wraith card.
> Barring errat you are perhaps technically correct but try it in my
> group and it wouldn't work.
> Also there is another card that has a similar effect of one perhaps
> canceling the other in this way but I do not remember it.
> Perhaps Scott or Tom would help.
I don't find it particularly abusive. Two blood for two actions, with a
little damage bonus in between times. Both cards require a specific
clan, and one requires pool.
I don't see a problem.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Brian Kallenbach wrote:
> The Corrupter wrote:
[Re: Ambrosius harmed by "Steal Blood" or similar powers]
> > Probably a good way to fix this is that Ambrosius is only affected by
> > aggravated damage. Stealing and burning blood effects do not harm him.
[snip]
> I really don't know if a Steal Blood action would have any effect on
> any ally anyway.
Why shouldn't it? All of the allies except Ambrosius have blood.
> Some of them don't have any blood to steal (Ambrosios and Ahkenaten
> just for example's sake. But then again, the above two shouldn't even
> have "life" as they're both dead...>sigh< :)
Ambrosius is dead, but Ahkenaten and Kherebetu (the two Mummies) are
alive, but immortal. They do have blood (see World of Darkness: Mummy
from White Wolf).
[ quoted text not captured ]
The whole schtick of the Giovanni is their ability to recycle cards from
the ash heap on a potentially never-ending loop. They have a lot of
staying power when they get rolling. The fact that the Zombie and the
Ferryman are both Giovanni makes it obvious, to myself, that this
potentially eternal combination is not, in fact a violation of the spirit
of the card, but rather a designed combo. As has been pointed out, it is
not that great a combo for it has you tap the ally to gain what is
effectively a hunt for 2 blood action. In other words, by bringing the
Ferryman and Zombi into play, you gain a weak hunting ground for a start
cost of 4. I used the combo for awhile in my last game until I realised
that the Ferryman made a much more efficient Gangrel blocker than a
Zombie fetcher. They have to use one of their valuable claws just to nick
him.
On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 16:30:31 -0700, WildStar <Wyld...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>The Corrupter wrote:>>
>> On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Daniel Hoffman wrote:
>>
>> > Well, is he affected by steal blood strikes or not? If he is then he is too
>> > easy for Tremere and Followers of Set to take down. I don't particularly see
>> > the Ferryman having blood like other allies do.
>>>> Probably a good way to fix this is that Ambrosius is only affected by
>> aggravated damage. Stealing and burning blood effects do not harm him.>But I assume that a blood to water would still dispose of him.. becuase it>doesn't do any damage per se.. just burns the ally....>WyldStar
Well blood to water is a burn blood effect so the proposed change
would cover it.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 09:27:19 GMT, fe...@hearth.ultranet.com (Mark
Amidon) wrote:
>I>>Actually the card does not go into your ash heap but out of the game
>>and so nothing can bring it back anymore.>Zombie Giovanni/1 blood RETAINER WITH 2 LIFE>Only usable at close range. When the vampire with this retainer is in combat,
>opposing minion takes 1 additional damage during strike resolution. As a +1
>stealth action, the controlling vampire may burn the Zombie to gain 2 blood.>What makes you say that the card does not go into my ash heap? When the
>controlling vampire burns the Zombie, it goes to the ash heap and any cards,
>counters, etc., come off. This effectively nullifies the Pathos counters,
>except to put a time limit on when the Zombie must be burned as an action.
Thats being abusive and contrary to the spirit of the Wraith card.
Barring errat you are perhaps technically correct but try it in my
group and it wouldn't work.
Also there is another card that has a similar effect of one perhaps
canceling the other in this way but I do not remember it.
Perhaps Scott or Tom would help.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On 27 Jun 1996 13:17:25 GMT, sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott
Johnson) wrote:
>
>The point of contention here is whether or not the Wraith's ability
>still applies if the target Retainer returns to the ash heap (i.e.,
>would the Retainer who lost all his Pathos counters by going to the
>ash heap still be bound by other game effects?). I'd say the Zombie
>is free because he is out of play (in the ash heap) by the time he
>loses his Pathos counters, and therefore not governed by card text
>not expressly directed at ash-heap cards.>TOM?>--
>L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Working here is a nightmare.
>http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | I'd quit but I need the sleep.
>Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |
Well thats 1 vote against but as I said in my reply I feel that would
be rather abusive and contrary to the spirit of the Wraith card.
Rory who also would like Tom to drop by this thread.
The Ref at refp...@best.com
On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, The Corrupter wrote:
> Date: Fri, 28 JUN 1996 11:36:06 -0500
> From: The Corrupter <sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu>> Newgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
> Subject: Re: The Ferryman; to be or not to be Giovanni?
>> On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Brian Kallenbach wrote:
>
> > The Corrupter wrote:
>
> [Re: Ambrosius harmed by "Steal Blood" or similar powers]> > > Probably a good way to fix this is that Ambrosius is only affected by
> > > aggravated damage. Stealing and burning blood effects do not harm him.
>> [snip]
> > I really don't know if a Steal Blood action would have any effect on
> > any ally anyway.
>
> Why shouldn't it? All of the allies except Ambrosius have blood.
>
> > Some of them don't have any blood to steal (Ambrosios and Ahkenaten
> > just for example's sake. But then again, the above two shouldn't even
> > have "life" as they're both dead...>sigh< :)
>
> Ambrosius is dead, but Ahkenaten and Kherebetu (the two Mummies) are
> alive, but immortal. They do have blood (see World of Darkness: Mummy
> from White Wolf).
They do have blood but it will not "nourish" a vampire so I believe it is
safe to consider them "bloodless" for simplicity. If I remember correctly
Mummmy blood can even be harmful to a vampire as it is consumed.
>
> @ The Corrupter - Adrian Lee Sullivan @ GAT/CS/WS R+++* r(+)>++
> # Gamer Coffee-Addict Scripter Author # C(+++)$ USX+$ N++ e+*
> @#$ Comments ? sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu $#@ tv(+)> X++ b++(+++)
> @#$ <http://cslab.uwlax.edu/~sulli_al/jyhad> $#@ PS+&-+ PE&-&++ z*+?
>
>
>
**********************************************************************
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:21:00 -0500, The Corrupter
<sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu> wrote:
>I don't find it particularly abusive. Two blood for two actions, with a
>little damage bonus in between times. Both cards require a specific
>clan, and one requires pool.
Well I'm more annoyed at the spirit of the abuse then the effect.
However the effect is somewhat cheaper then you describe.
First the fact that only 1 clan can do it does not make it less
abusive.
After the cards are in play it is 1 action every 2 turns by an Ally
(who probably wouldn't bleed or block anyway) and then the vampire
gets 2 blood which could be pulled off with a blood doll. Abot as
effective as a hunting ground combo. But the Wraith is easier to get
rid of.
I don't think it justifies errata after digging out my zombie card to
read. I also can see the special effect (who says its the same zombie
after all, its not even a Unique card) of a powerful Wraith raising
up zombies.
Rory
>I don't see a problem.> @ The Corrupter - Adrian Lee Sullivan @ GAT/CS/WS R+++* r(+)>++> # Gamer Coffee-Addict Scripter Author # C(+++)$ USX+$ N++ e+*
> @#$ Comments ? sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu $#@ tv(+)> X++ b++(+++)
>@#$ <http://cslab.uwlax.edu/~sulli_al/jyhad> $#@ PS+&-+ PE&-&++ z*+?
The Ref at refp...@best.com
[ quoted text not captured ]
Agreed.
I actually had not really considered him as much of a blocker but I
suppose that we have much more aggro running around.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Sat, 29 Jun 1996 00:22:53 GMT, refp...@best.com (Rory) wrote:
>On 27 Jun 1996 13:17:25 GMT, sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott
>Johnson) wrote:>The Ref at refp...@best.com
As I said earlier I have changed my mind in this case.
Special effect fits and I'm happy.
However it is a dangerous precedent and other cards may be a problem
(either with abuse or special effect)
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Bastet wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, The Corrupter wrote:> > Bastet wrote:> > > just for example's sake. But then again, the above two shouldn't even
> > > have "life" as they're both dead...>sigh< :)> > Ambrosius is dead, but Ahkenaten and Kherebetu (the two Mummies) are
> > alive, but immortal. They do have blood (see World of Darkness: Mummy
> > from White Wolf).> They do have blood but it will not "nourish" a vampire so I believe it> safe to consider them "bloodless" for simplicity. If I remember correctly
> Mummmy blood can even be harmful to a vampire as it is consumed.
For game simplicity sake, since the mummies would still be damaged by
steal blood powers, it is just easier to have them not have any comments
on whether or not vampires are nourished by their blood. Just let it
happen. Sometimes, game world "realism" needs to be sacrificed for a
better game. :)
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Sat, 29 Jun 1996 21:58:12 -0400, Bastet <damc...@mtholyoke.edu>
wrote:
>They do have blood but it will not "nourish" a vampire so I believe it is>safe to consider them "bloodless" for simplicity. If I remember correctly
>Mummmy blood can even be harmful to a vampire as it is consumed.
Just not nourishing.
Of course if a Mummy drank a potion one never knows the effect...
The Ref at refp...@best.com