Sabbat and Votes

Darin Clisby <m...@siwash.bc.ca> wrote in article <328103da...@news.siwash.bc.ca>... > We have recently discovered that the Sabbat and Camarilla political > systems can potentially wreak havok. > > For instance, a Praxis Seizue: Miami is called do all the Sabbat get > to vote on it? Or do only the Camarilla vampires have a say? > > If the first option is correct then the Sabbat can dictate who the > Camarilla may have as Princes...and unlikely event if you take the RP > angle. But if the Second option were true, then a Camarilla vote deck > playing against mostly Sabbat players would stand practically > unopposed... > > Any other thoughts on the voting? The little "rules sheet" that comes in the Sabbat states which votes the Sabbat vamps can't vote on. Praxis Seizures are included in that list. All the votes in Sabbat state that Camarilla can't vote on them if they can't vote. -- Steve Bucy I'd be better off undead... "Hmmm. I notice the number of conditional phrases in there... _seems_ to indicate a weakness, _may_ be vulnerable in theory." - G'Kar

Karl Innes <in...@infomatch.com> wrote in article <328244...@infomatch.com>... > Steven Bucy wrote: > > > > Darin Clisby <m...@siwash.bc.ca> wrote in article > > <328103da...@news.siwash.bc.ca>... > > > We have recently discovered that the Sabbat and Camarilla political > > > systems can potentially wreak havok. > > > > > > For instance, a Praxis Seizue: Miami is called do all the Sabbat get > > > to vote on it? Or do only the Camarilla vampires have a say? (snip) > Correct me if I'm wrong but as I read it there is no restriction > on how sabbat vampires participate in these votes, only that they cannot > call them. (snip of terrible, worthless rules addendum) > > This rule book only forbids non-Camarilla vamps from CALLING the > votes, not participating in them. Our play group found this asthetically > annoying ( Imagine the Sabbat anti-tribue Brujah storming the sacrosanct > Chantry of the tremere and stating that they find Etrius' new choice for > Justicar unnacceptable??!?!?!?) The idea sticks in my craw but we > realized for play purposes any other method made pol. decks too > powerful. > > If you split all of the votes into CAm./non-cam etc. then you > water down the votes on the table. Pol decks are hugely more powerful if > you factor into account that a portion of the votes on the table will be > unable to participate in any give action. Hopefully WOTC will address > this problem and perhaps clarify the inadequate rules provided with the > "stand alone" sabbat expansion. > I hope so. This is certainly another screw up. The Sabbat vote cards say that Camarilla can't vote during this political action. I am sure they ment that Sabbat vamps can't _call_ or praticipate in the listed political actions. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Darin Clisby wrote: > We have recently discovered that the Sabbat and Camarilla political > systems can potentially wreak havok. > For instance, a Praxis Seizue: Miami is called do all the Sabbat get > to vote on it? Or do only the Camarilla vampires have a say? > > If the first option is correct then the Sabbat can dictate who the > Camarilla may have as Princes...and unlikely event if you take the RP > angle. But if the Second option were true, then a Camarilla vote deck > playing against mostly Sabbat players would stand practically > unopposed... Sabbat vampires cannot call Praxis Seizures, but may vote on them. Unless a Sabbat vote states that "Camarilla kindred may not vote on this action" or someone has played a Closed Session, everyone with votes can vote on any political action. Restrictions usually only apply to people calling votes. The role-playing angle shouldn't apply to the stated rules of Jyhad/V:TES, meaning vote decks should have enough power to be workable, even if someone doesn't think that Tzimisce can vote on Jazz Wentworth seizing power of Seattle. -Nathan Harada

Steven Bucy wrote: > > The little "rules sheet" that comes in the Sabbat states which votes the > Sabbat vamps can't vote on. Praxis Seizures are included in that list. All > the votes in Sabbat state that Camarilla can't vote on them if they can't > vote. Actually in the rules update, under the header Camarilla Membership Has Its Privileges it points out that only Camarilla can call or be targeted by certain votes. It never points out who can participate in this voting. So poor deluded Rake is going to bring up the votes for me, but my squad of Cardinals are going to give their two cents worth. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- pheersum inhabits the mortal shell of eric schultheis. one channels mailto://phee...@sb.net. pheersum manifests at http://www.sb.net/pheersum/Pheerpage.htm . nature says,"go ahead, have as many babies as you want. something will eat them." ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Nathan Harada (i...@hula.net) wrote: : > Darin Clisby wrote: : > We have recently discovered that the Sabbat and Camarilla political : > systems can potentially wreak havok. : > For instance, a Praxis Seizue: Miami is called do all the Sabbat get : > to vote on it? Or do only the Camarilla vampires have a say? : > : > If the first option is correct then the Sabbat can dictate who the : > Camarilla may have as Princes...and unlikely event if you take the RP : > angle. But if the Second option were true, then a Camarilla vote deck : > playing against mostly Sabbat players would stand practically : > unopposed... : Sabbat vampires cannot call Praxis Seizures, but may vote on them. : Unless a Sabbat vote states that "Camarilla kindred may not vote on : this action" or someone has played a Closed Session, everyone with : votes can vote on any political action. Anyone notice how much more powerful Closed Session is now? If a Sabbat political deck is having it out with a Camarilla political deck, the Camarilla voters can shut out their opponents completely. Cool, eh? : Restrictions usually only apply to people calling votes. : The role-playing angle shouldn't apply to the stated rules of : Jyhad/V:TES, meaning vote decks should have enough power to be : workable, even if someone doesn't think that Tzimisce can vote on : Jazz Wentworth seizing power of Seattle. Actually, this does make sense to me. Camarilla power and Sabbat power are often two completely different issues. The Sabbat tend to rely on brute force rather than clandestine politics, and the reverse is true in the Camarilla. Thus, a successful Praxis Seizure is often the result of a few well-placed favors and well-timed shifts of power. Crusades, OTOH, are often products of outright fear and violence. The "votes" held by Camarilla and Sabbat vampires differ in this respect-they repre- sent different spheres of influence. So if Jazz Wentworth wants to become Prince of Seattle, he must be able to persuade the local Primogen that the local Sabbat Cardinal will not be a problem. In game terms, if Jazz is unable to overcome, say, the votes of Angelica, the powers that be will not make him a prince. I think it all adds an interesting dimension to game politics. : -Nathan Harada -- Eric Manch (esm...@unix.amherst.edu) http://www.amherst.edu/~esmanch "Come...dry your eyes, for you are life, rarer than a quark and unpredictable beyond the dreams of Heisenberg; the clay in which the forces that shape all things leave their fingerprints most clearly." -Alan Moore, "The Watchmen"

Pheersum wrote: > > Steven Bucy wrote: > > > > The little "rules sheet" that comes in the Sabbat states which votes the > > Sabbat vamps can't vote on. Praxis Seizures are included in that list. All > > the votes in Sabbat state that Camarilla can't vote on them if they can't > > vote. > > Actually in the rules update, under the header Camarilla Membership Has > Its Privileges it points out that only Camarilla can call or be targeted > by certain votes. It never points out who can participate in this > voting. So poor deluded Rake is going to bring up the votes for me, but > my squad of Cardinals are going to give their two cents worth. > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > pheersum inhabits the mortal shell of eric schultheis. one > channels mailto://phee...@sb.net pheersum manifests at > http://www.sb.net/pheersum/Pheerpage.htm . nature says,"go ahead, have > as many babies as you want. something will eat them." > --------------------------------------------------------------------- When a vote is called, The acting minion determines which power structure to use. If it is camarilla, then only members of the camarilla with camarilla titles can vote. Same goes if the acting minion is antitribu, then only antitribu may vote. Panders may vote as antitribu as given by LoP. The priscus apply only to antitribu called votes. It's in the rules. And yes the target of the votes can be any/all methusalas. -- ___________________________________________________________ Richard Braxton 75424...@compuserve.com

Richard Braxton <"75424,2203"@compuserve.com> writes: >When a vote is called, The acting minion determines which power structure to >use. If it is camarilla, then only members of the camarilla with camarilla >titles can vote. Same goes if the acting minion is antitribu, then only >antitribu may vote. Panders may vote as antitribu as given by LoP. The >priscus apply only to antitribu called votes. It's in the rules. And yes >the target of the votes can be any/all methusalas. No, it isn't in the rules. I welcome a reference (section, paragraph, anything) that includes such a "acting-minion-determined" exclusion. The rules make extensive restrictions to exclude the Non-Cam (Sabbat and Independent) vampires from the Camarilla politics - but only in the effects of a vote, not the voting process. Vice-versa for Non-Sabbat in Sabbat politics. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Only XT users know that http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | Jan 1, 1980 was a Tuesday. Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

--------------------------------------------------------------------- > > When a vote is called, The acting minion determines which power structure to > use. If it is camarilla, then only members of the camarilla with camarilla > titles can vote. Same goes if the acting minion is antitribu, then only > antitribu may vote. Panders may vote as antitribu as given by LoP. The > priscus apply only to antitribu called votes. It's in the rules. And yes > the target of the votes can be any/all methusalas. > -- > ___________________________________________________________ > Richard Braxton > 75424...@compuserve.com Which rules set is this?? The world according to Richard Braxton rules?? I fail to see why anyone should change the way they play based on your interpretation of the rules. If someone was foolish enough to do so, they would quickly find out how unbalanced the voting system becomes. Karl

In article <328A24...@infomatch.com>, Karl Innes <in...@infomatch.com> writes [ quoted text not captured ] Just to add my two cents' worth, whatever happened when we had such characters as Regina Giovanni, Stefano Giovanni, Saqqaf, Thetmes, and all other Non-Camarilla vampires with votes? Wasn't it assumed that non-Camarilla vampires with votes could still vote on Camarilla votes? You never questioned that - why on earth would the head of the Giovanni clan want to bother about a peace treaty? Or the Calif of Alamut with any action concerning the Prince of, say, London? The point I'm trying to make is that just because a character has votes, does not mean that they can only vote on actions that have been called by a member of the same sect as them. As I see it (this may be a little wrong, so I apologise), the characters with votes basically have a little more influence in vampire society in general - Camarilla vamps know to respect Thetmes, because if they don't, he'll beat the crap out of them. Of course, it's not just fear-mongering; Nosferatu get along very well iwth their antitribu (all things considered), so isn't it likely that they know each other? And as for the Malkavians and their antitribu... well, the less said about that the better. Just because the new expansion figures cards from a different Sect, one that has been opposed to the Camarilla since it's formation in the Inquisition, everyone thinks that Camarilla and Sabbat cannot interact and vote on the same action. (Not including Sabbat-specific votes.) And always remember the most important rule in V:TES - whevener the cards contradict the rules, the rules take precedent - if a card does not specifically say that only Sabbat may vote in this action, then any vampire can vote in it. The same goes for cards like Justicar cards - the clan to which they apply obviously wield more power in such a vote - they are more respected than an outsider with no knowledge of the workings of the clan. Oh well, lecture over -- Justin Grace