Torpor Options

What exactly can a vampire do while in torpor? The new V:tES rules are very vague. We have a Gangrel Loop deck in our group which seems to abuse torpor. Can vampires in torpor use any action modifiers? This doesn't seem right... Seduction, Lost in Crowds, these seem to require an active effort not availlable to a comatose vampire. Especially Freak Drive... Imagine... Vamp in torpor uses Movement of Slow Body-gain 1 blood, Regeneration-gain 5 blood, Freak Drive, Rapid Healing -vamp leaves torpor and gains 1blood, Freak Drive, now at full capacity and ready to act again... and uses Earth Control if any of these steps are blocked. Can any card be used while in torpor if it does not expressly say that it cannot? Also any comments on how to deal with this type of thing will be most helpful...

Chris Michalek <CMi...@aol.com> wrote in article <01bc0669$637e8520$7ed3...@CMichale.byu.edu>... > What exactly can a vampire do while in torpor? The new V:tES rules are > very vague. We have a Gangrel Loop deck in our group which seems to abuse > torpor. > I Have not played in a while. (since Jyhad was new on the shelfs.) But it seems to me your friend is cheating his ass off. When we played a torped vamp couldn't do a damn thing unless a card or rule specifically allowed it. Hyp-

Chris Michalek (CMi...@aol.com) wrote: : What exactly can a vampire do while in torpor? The new V:tES rules are : very vague. We have a Gangrel Loop deck in our group which seems to abuse : torpor. : Can vampires in torpor use any action modifiers? : This doesn't seem right... Seduction, Lost in Crowds, these seem to : require an active effort not availlable to a comatose vampire. Especially : Freak Drive... Imagine... Vamp in torpor uses Movement of Slow Body-gain 1 : blood, Regeneration-gain 5 blood, Freak Drive, Rapid Healing -vamp leaves : torpor and gains 1blood, Freak Drive, now at full capacity and ready to act : again... and uses Earth Control if any of these steps are blocked. : Can any card be used while in torpor if it does not expressly say that it : cannot? : Also any comments on how to deal with this type of thing will be most : helpful... This all sounds perfectly legal, provided vamp does not attempt the same action twice in a turn. One thing I am wondering tho. Did he win? The deck sounds really cool, but I am not sure it is practical. And what is he going to do with all those getting out of torpor cards if no-one tries to torporize him? Movement of the Slow Body, BTW, is not in the V:tES edition. I've heard it was discontinued because it was considered wallpaper, not because it was thought abusive, tho if this is true I don't understand why. (???) John Whelan

"Chris Michalek" <CMi...@aol.com> writes: >What exactly can a vampire do while in torpor? The new V:tES rules are >very vague. We have a Gangrel Loop deck in our group which seems to abuse >torpor. >Can vampires in torpor use any action modifiers? Yes. >This doesn't seem right... Seduction, Lost in Crowds, these seem to >require an active effort not availlable to a comatose vampire. Especially >Freak Drive... Imagine... Vamp in torpor uses Movement of Slow Body-gain 1 >blood, Regeneration-gain 5 blood, Freak Drive, Rapid Healing -vamp leaves >torpor and gains 1blood, Freak Drive, now at full capacity and ready to act >again... and uses Earth Control if any of these steps are blocked. Uh-huh. Either he clogs with Earth Melds, or he gets a few of thoses steps blocked. If he's blocked, he's diablerized (most likely). >Can any card be used while in torpor if it does not expressly say that it >cannot? Yes, except action cards. Torpored vampires cannot attempt any actions except "leave torpor" (or as allowed by card text). >Also any comments on how to deal with this type of thing will be most >helpful... Block one of the actions of the torpored vampire and diablerize. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Freedom means choosing http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | your burden. Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | -- Hephzibah Menuhin

Chris Michalek <CMi...@aol.com> wrote in article <01bc0669$637e8520$7ed3...@CMichale.byu.edu>... > What exactly can a vampire do while in torpor? The new V:tES rules are > very vague. We have a Gangrel Loop deck in our group which seems to abuse > torpor. > > Can vampires in torpor use any action modifiers? Yes. > This doesn't seem right... Seduction, Lost in Crowds, these seem to > require an active effort not availlable to a comatose vampire. Especially > Freak Drive... Imagine... Vamp in torpor uses Movement of Slow Body-gain 1 > blood, Regeneration-gain 5 blood, Freak Drive, Rapid Healing -vamp leaves > torpor and gains 1blood, Freak Drive, now at full capacity and ready to act > again... and uses Earth Control if any of these steps are blocked. > > Can any card be used while in torpor if it does not expressly say that it > cannot? A vampire in torpor cannot react or do any actions except rescue itself, unless the card states on it that it's a action that can be done in torpor. Action modifiers can be played on any action. Freak Drive can be played at superior after the vamp enters torpor. > Also any comments on how to deal with this type of thing will be most > helpful... Rush combat is probably the best option. Lots of intercept will usually plaster this type of deck. 2nd tradition, enhanced senses, can be used with other intercept to give you three or four intercept frequently. That would be enough to block most of his actions. Steve Bucy I'd be better off undead... "Hmmm. I notice the number of conditional phrases in there... _seems_ to indicate a weakness, _may_ be vulnerable in theory." - G'Kar

Mark Barros (hyp...@netroplex.com) wrote: : Chris Michalek <CMi...@aol.com> wrote in article : <01bc0669$637e8520$7ed3...@CMichale.byu.edu>... : > What exactly can a vampire do while in torpor? The new V:tES rules are : > very vague. We have a Gangrel Loop deck in our group which seems to : abuse : > torpor. : > : I Have not played in a while. (since Jyhad was new on the shelfs.) But it : seems to me your friend is cheating his ass off. When we played a torped : vamp couldn't do a damn thing unless a card or rule specifically allowed : it. : Hyp- All 3 cards mentioned (Movement of the Slow Body, Regeneration, and Rapid Healing) are all action cards usable by vampires in torpor (and ONLY by vampires in torpor). The question was whether action modifiers could be played on these cards, and the answer is yes, as far as I know. John Whelan

John Whelan writes: >Movement of the Slow Body, BTW, is not in the V:tES edition. I've heard >it was discontinued because it was considered wallpaper, not because it >was thought abusive, tho if this is true I don't understand why. (???) It's abusive wallpaper (yes, that's not a typo). In the context of any normal deck, its use is contingent on going to torpor, which doesn't happen often, so it's a hand jammer. In the context of a deck which intends to go to torpor on many or most actions (Day Op or Force of Will) it's a free offensive untap and hence abusive. So the only time you see it is when somebody is abusing it. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)

> Can vampires in torpor use any action modifiers? Yes there's no rule against it. > This doesn't seem right... Seduction, Lost in Crowds, these seem to > require an active effort not availlable to a comatose vampire. Especially > Freak Drive... Imagine... Vamp in torpor uses Movement of Slow Body-gain 1 > blood, Regeneration-gain 5 blood, Freak Drive, Rapid Healing -vamp leaves > torpor and gains 1blood, Freak Drive, now at full capacity and ready to act > again... and uses Earth Control if any of these steps are blocked. The only actions you can do in torpor are: a) rescue yourself or b) perform an action specifically permitted by a card Most of what your friend is doing is legal - except that you can't freak drive in torpor Also, if a vampire in torpor is blocked, there is no combat. The blocking minion has the opportunity to commit diablerie. Now this is the subject of some debate in my group. I think that if you block a vampire in torpor, you MUST commit diablerie - but I'm not sure. If this is true, does this mean that allies cannot block vamps in torpor? If it is not true, then I assume that the action is just unsuccessful, and nothing further happens. -James

Chris Michalek <CMi...@aol.com> wrote in article <01bc0669$637e8520$7ed3...@CMichale.byu.edu>... > What exactly can a vampire do while in torpor? The new V:tES rules are > very vague. We have a Gangrel Loop deck in our group which seems to abuse > torpor. > > Can vampires in torpor use any action modifiers? > This doesn't seem right... Seduction, Lost in Crowds, these seem to > require an active effort not availlable to a comatose vampire. As far as I can tell, yes. > Especially Freak Drive... Imagine... Vamp in torpor uses Movement of Slow Body-gain 1 > blood, Regeneration-gain 5 blood Nope, Regeneration is an action. , Freak Drive, Rapid Healing -vamp leaves > torpor and gains 1blood, Freak Drive, now at full capacity and ready to act > again... and uses Earth Control if any of these steps are blocked. If this action is blocked, the vampire immediatly goes to torpor (if the vampire is bringing his/herself out of torpor.) The blocking minion has a chance to diablorize. (little booklet, page 42.) > Can any card be used while in torpor if it does not expressly say that it > cannot? Yes. But it's ability can only be used if the card doesnt say that the vampire needs to be ready. > Also any comments on how to deal with this type of thing will be most > helpful... > Being in torpor, basically means "not ready". Being not ready means it cannot do things a ready vamp can. It cannot take actions, unless a card specifically says that a torporized vampire is needed, or to get the heck out of torpor. Action modifiers can be used. M.

"James" <3j...@qlink.queensu.ca> writes: >> Can vampires in torpor use any action modifiers? >Yes there's no rule against it. >The only actions you can do in torpor are: > a) rescue yourself or > b) perform an action specifically permitted by a card >Most of what your friend is doing is legal - except that you can't freak >drive in torpor You point out that there's no rule against using action modifiers in Torpor, and then say that you cannot Freak Drive. Why is Freak Drive any different from the other action mods? In short, you were correct the first time - torpored vampires can use any action modifiers. Currently this includes Cloak the Gathering as well - the superior of which should probably have errata saying that the modifying vampire must be ready - but that's getting a little off topic. >Also, if a vampire in torpor is blocked, there is no combat. The blocking >minion has the opportunity to commit diablerie. Now this is the subject of >some debate in my group. I think that if you block a vampire in torpor, >you MUST commit diablerie - but I'm not sure. The diablerie is optional. >If this is true, does this mean that allies cannot block vamps in torpor? >If it is not true, then I assume that the action is just unsuccessful, and >nothing further happens. Correct. This is also the case if the blocker is a vampire, and that blocker doesn't wish to diablerize the acting vampire. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Voyager: http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | To boldly get lost where no Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | one has been lost before!

> John Whelan wrote: > : Chris Michalek (CMi...@aol.com) wrote: > : What exactly can a vampire do while in torpor? The new V:tES rules are > : very vague. We have a Gangrel Loop deck in our group which seems to abuse > : torpor. > : Can vampires in torpor use any action modifiers? > : This doesn't seem right... Seduction, Lost in Crowds, these seem to > : require an active effort not availlable to a comatose vampire. Especially > : Freak Drive... Imagine... Vamp in torpor uses Movement of Slow Body-gain 1 > : blood, Regeneration-gain 5 blood, Freak Drive, Rapid Healing -vamp leaves > : torpor and gains 1blood, Freak Drive, now at full capacity and ready to act > : again... and uses Earth Control if any of these steps are blocked. Forget the second Freak Drive. Use a Force of Will to bleed at +2, then go back to torpor and repeat. Add Fame for an additional 3 pool loss each time. > : Can any card be used while in torpor if it does not expressly say that it > : cannot? Any action modifier that the vampire can normally play is legal. > : Also any comments on how to deal with this type of thing will be most > : helpful... Adopt the Sensible Player's Tournament Rules. No Repeat Actions. "Actions of the same type-bleed, vote, leave torpor, may not be attempted twice by the same vampire." Two. Play an intercept deck that can get +3 intercept at any given time and diablerize on any of his torpor actions. The rest of the table will probably vote with you. Three. Play a rush deck that can jump any vampire of his with superior Fortitude and Protean immediately, then diablerize. Gangrel Loop bleeders don't use damage prevention or claws! > One thing I am wondering tho. Did he win? The deck sounds really cool, > but I am not sure it is practical. And what is he going to do with all > those getting out of torpor cards if no-one tries to torporize him? Gangrel Loop decks are frighteningly effective at ousting one person. However, they hand jam, and they run out of cards. They also incur the wrath of everyone else playing at that time. Hmm.. I guess a first turn Camarilla Threat would also slow it down. Gangrel have multiple fun ways to torporize themselves. Day Operation, Dawn Operation, Force of Will, Body of Sun, etc. > Movement of the Slow Body, BTW, is not in the V:tES edition. I've heard > it was discontinued because it was considered wallpaper, not because it > was thought abusive, tho if this is true I don't understand why. (???) > John Whelan It untaps a tapped vampire in torpor. That allows that vampire to take actions from torpor, and means that it probably won't get diablerized or burned. It allows the Gangrel Infinite Loop to function, abusing Fame and day operation. It permits two actions with a vampire per round. Freak Drive also does this, but MotSB costs nothing and can only be attempted while in torpor. Freak Drive is broken because it allows greater mileage out of a limited resource (vampire actions) with a negligible cost. MotSB, though, allows actions from torpor. It is a specialized use, which will rarely be seen in normal play. I have only seen MotSB used when someone was planning to abuse it-as such, it fits into one of my categories of broken cards. -Nathan Harada

In article <32E729...@hula.net>, Nathan Harada <i...@hula.net> wrote: >> John Whelan wrote: > Forget the second Freak Drive. Use a Force of Will to bleed at >+2, then go back to torpor and repeat. Add Fame for an additional 3 >pool loss each time. > [solution to looping] > Adopt the Sensible Player's Tournament Rules. No Repeat >Actions. "Actions of the same type-bleed, vote, leave torpor, may >not be attempted twice by the same vampire." > Two. Play an intercept deck that can get +3 intercept at >any given time and diablerize on any of his torpor actions. The >rest of the table will probably vote with you. > Three. Play a rush deck that can jump any vampire of his >with superior Fortitude and Protean immediately, then diablerize. >Gangrel Loop bleeders don't use damage prevention or claws! I would add a fourth here, which is to ban fame, since there are just so many ways to abuse it. This sort of thing is just the icing on the cake. It doesn't help that WotC seems to have developed cards which are complete wallpaper without it (I'm thinking of Mummify right now). Um, right. To get to the reason that I actually posted: let's say that vampire A is trying to pull itself out of torpor. Vampire B blocks. Vampire A then uses Kiss of Ra at superior. I think it's fairly obvious that B goes to torpor, but is A diablerized? Personally, I don't think so, but I figured I'd query those more rules wise than I. Thanks in advance, -- Robert Granat Lackey of the Schnitzel Industry

rag...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Robert Granat) writes: >Um, right. To get to the reason that I actually posted: let's say that >vampire A is trying to pull itself out of torpor. Vampire B blocks. >Vampire A then uses Kiss of Ra at superior. I think it's fairly obvious >that B goes to torpor, but is A diablerized? Personally, I don't think >so, but I figured I'd query those more rules wise than I. I would like to agree. Vampires in Torpor cannot commit diablerie any more than they can participate in combat (which is why Amaranth is worded the way it is). However, this (not commiting diablerie) is just a function of card text, not a rule (like not being involved in combat). So, with just card text (from Kiss of Ra): Vamp B is the blocker and the action is blocked. and, according to the rules (for Leave Torpor action): The blocking vampire has the option to commit diablerie. So, Vamp B could diablerize Vamp A, at Vamp B's option. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 23 Jan 1997 21:58:13 GMT, rag...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Robert Granat) wrote: <snip> >Um, right. To get to the reason that I actually posted: let's say that >vampire A is trying to pull itself out of torpor. Vampire B blocks. >Vampire A then uses Kiss of Ra at superior. I think it's fairly obvious >that B goes to torpor, but is A diablerized? Personally, I don't think >so, but I figured I'd query those more rules wise than I. Unless there is some text on the card which specifically says so(not true in this case), then no. Sigh. Another abusive use for Kiss of Ra(as if the card wasn't broken already....). Alec Chang

[ quoted text not captured ] I don't see why the diablerie would be prohibited. I'm not aware of any rule that prevents a vampire on the way to torpor from diablerizing another, as long as that diablerie is otherwise allowed. Amaranth, etc., have explicit card text preventing the diablerie, so apparently explicit card text is needed forbidding the diablerie -- suggesting that it would otherwise be legal. Even if you think that a vampire going to torpor is (or should be) prohibited from diablerie, the sequence of events on the Kiss of Ra card is that the action is blocked, _then_ the blocking vampire goes to torpor. As soon as the action is blocked, the blocking vampire has the opportunity to commit diablerie -- and _then_ the blocking vampire goes to torpor. --- Eric Pettersen pe...@cgl.ucsf.edu (NeXTmail capable)