Assume: I have an acting Toreador (who is very good at dodging)
in combat with a blocking Brujah (who is very good at hurting)
in a round of combat, my Tor (suspecting large damage) Dodges.
the Brutejah pouts and simply announces a hand strike.
My Tor doesn't play a card to gain an additional strike.
The Brute, however, Blurs for two more strikes.
Q: can my Timid Tor now play Blur to gain additional strikes?
(And use those to dodge two more times?)
That is: is gaining additional strikes like blocking (once passed,
you can't choose to later), or is it like Pressing/Maneuvering
and stealth/intercept (playable in response to the opposing Minion's
activity)?
It is like blocking, IMHO - since you either do or you don't,
and since presses/maneuver/intercept-stealth can be gained an
arbitrary number of times until one minion "wins".
Tom? Care to give the official stance on this?
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu) | These opinions are mine and
Graphics Specialist and Jyhad Rulemonger. | are subject to card text.
In article <3pgaka$o...@redwood.cs.scarolina.edu>,
L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>in a round of combat, my Tor (suspecting large damage) Dodges.
>the Brutejah pouts and simply announces a hand strike.
Actually, can the Brujah announce a strike? The way 99% of
Jyhad players play, yes, but I'm confused as to how the DT rulings
affect this point of order. Has Dodge been moved up to the
semi-omnipotent power of a Combat Ends?
>Q: can my Timid Tor now play Blur to gain additional strikes?
>(And use those to dodge two more times?)
I think that additional strikes is like blocking, and once
you've passed up the chance to get them, you can't go back and get them
again.
| If you've got a hot lead on a new | *--Joe--*
| PC game, call the announce line at | js...@vt.edu
| ** csi...@discus.ise.vt.edu ** |
+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------
"There. That should do nicely. After all, we don't want the locals to
see grannies clipped to trash bins by their teeth, do we?" -- Mr. Gone
js...@discus.ise.vt.edu (Joseph Cochran) writes:
>In article <3pgaka$o...@redwood.cs.scarolina.edu>,
>L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:>>in a round of combat, my Tor (suspecting large damage) Dodges.
>>the Brutejah pouts and simply announces a hand strike.> Actually, can the Brujah announce a strike? The way 99% of
>Jyhad players play, yes, but I'm confused as to how the DT rulings
>affect this point of order. Has Dodge been moved up to the
>semi-omnipotent power of a Combat Ends?
Sorry. I just can't seem to shut down enough brain cells so that I can
accept that Dodge resolves as soon as it is announced.
Thanks for setting me straight for the moment.
So, for that matter, I Timid Tor dodges, can Brutey play Majesty?
Majesty is s'posed to be more omnipotent than Dodge, but since you
can't announce a strike... ?
[ quoted text not captured ]
L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>That is: is gaining additional strikes like blocking (once passed,
>you can't choose to later), or is it like Pressing/Maneuvering
>and stealth/intercept (playable in response to the opposing Minion's
>activity)?
The rulebook doesn't say anything about an order, so I'd say it's like
pressing and maneuvering (which would be consistent anyway), but I'll
double check that.
Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>So, for that matter, I Timid Tor dodges, can Brutey play Majesty?
>Majesty is s'posed to be more omnipotent than Dodge, but since you
>can't announce a strike... ?
If the acting minion plays a dodge, the blocking minion is perfectly free
to respond with a strike. That strike simply won't do anything to the
dodging minion (well, except that combat ends works normally).
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <3pokaf$5...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>,
Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>If the acting minion plays a dodge, the blocking minion is perfectly free
>to respond with a strike. That strike simply won't do anything to the
>dodging minion (well, except that combat ends works normally).
I thought that you had said that Dodge took effect immediately
like CE did. What did you actually mean?
[ quoted text not captured ]
Joseph Cochran <js...@discus.ise.vt.edu> wrote:
>>If the acting minion plays a dodge, the blocking minion is perfectly free
>>to respond with a strike. That strike simply won't do anything to the
>>dodging minion (well, except that combat ends works normally).> I thought that you had said that Dodge took effect immediately
>like CE did. What did you actually mean?
Dodge automatically neutralizes the other strike, even if it's done at
first strike, so yes it basically takes effect immediately. But it's always
legal to play a strike that you know is going to fail, e.g. playing Undead
Strength when the round is at range.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <3ps7v2$3...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>,
Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>>Joseph Cochran <js...@discus.ise.vt.edu> wrote:>>>If the acting minion plays a dodge, the blocking minion is perfectly free
>>>to respond with a strike. That strike simply won't do anything to the
>>>dodging minion (well, except that combat ends works normally).>> I thought that you had said that Dodge took effect immediately
>>like CE did. What did you actually mean?>
>Dodge automatically neutralizes the other strike, even if it's done at
>first strike, so yes it basically takes effect immediately. But it's always
>legal to play a strike that you know is going to fail, e.g. playing Undead
>Strength when the round is at range.
>
I think (as we all know) the point Joe Cochran was trying to make was
that even though Dodge and Combat Ends "basically take effect immediately"
they really take effect during strike resolution - just like every other
strike. You say that this is the case for Dodge - cancelling the
opposing offensive strike (even a first strike), but you refuse to clear
the fog from the Combat Ends ruling. It could easily follow the rules
of logic and consistency by saying that the Combat Ends takes effect during
the strike resolution - cancelling the opposing offensive strike (even a
first strike). You cannot "play a strike that you know is going to fail" -
which you say you can always do, because the DT has corrupted the system
after someone mis-read too much into the word "immediately" in the rulebook.
What's wrong with playing it the way the rules are written?
If you keep clinging to this false ruling, then more and more silly, circular
conversations (like the one between me and Joe that prompted your response)
will pop up - because the ruling isn't solidly based.
It will fall eventually - may as well be sooner.
--
-----
L. Scott Johnson (lsc...@crl.com) | The opinions expressed are mine
Graphics Specialist and Jyhad Rulemonger | and subject to card text
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) wrote:
>
>Joseph Cochran <js...@discus.ise.vt.edu> wrote:>>>If the acting minion plays a dodge, the blocking minion is perfectly free
>>>to respond with a strike. That strike simply won't do anything to the
>>>dodging minion (well, except that combat ends works normally).>> I thought that you had said that Dodge took effect immediately
>>like CE did. What did you actually mean?>
>Dodge automatically neutralizes the other strike, even if it's done at
>first strike, so yes it basically takes effect immediately. But it's always
>legal to play a strike that you know is going to fail, e.g. playing Undead
>Strength when the round is at range.
Peace Tom,
If Strike: Dodge resolves "immediately" why can the blocking minion strike when
s/h/it wouldn't be allowed to if it was a Strike: Combat Ends? This seems very
inconsistant to me and is my primary gripe with the way S:CE works (currently).
You said in a previous message:
>If the acting minion plays a dodge, the blocking minion is perfectly free
>to respond with a strike. That strike simply won't do anything to the
>dodging minion (well, except that combat ends works normally).
Why can't this apply to S:CE also?
Nil carborundum illigitimi,
James R. McClure Jr.
The OS/2 Apostle
<insert disclaimer here>
In article <3psi6r$h...@crl.crl.com>, L. Scott Johnson <lsc...@crl.com> wrote:
>In article <3ps7v2$3...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>,>Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:>>
>>Joseph Cochran <js...@discus.ise.vt.edu> wrote:>>>>If the acting minion plays a dodge, the blocking minion is perfectly free
>>>>to respond with a strike. That strike simply won't do anything to the
>>>>dodging minion (well, except that combat ends works normally).>>> I thought that you had said that Dodge took effect immediately
>>>like CE did. What did you actually mean?>>
>>Dodge automatically neutralizes the other strike, even if it's done at
>>first strike, so yes it basically takes effect immediately. But it's always
>>legal to play a strike that you know is going to fail, e.g. playing Undead
>>Strength when the round is at range.
>>
So can I use Blood Rage (or Blood Rage, I forget... the thamaturgy version)
to strike with and prevent weapon damage even though it says it must be
used at close range? Is this just an instance of a reminder that it isn't
a ranged attack?
Brent
L. Scott Johnson <lsc...@crl.com> wrote:
>I think (as we all know) the point Joe Cochran was trying to make was
>that even though Dodge and Combat Ends "basically take effect immediately"
>they really take effect during strike resolution - just like every other>strike...
Look, I realize everyone here wants to shoehorn dodge and combat ends into
the same process that all other strikes follow, but they don't. "Combat ends"
ends the combat *immediately*, as the strike is played, before anything else
can happen. The effects of Dodge also kick in immediately. If you really
hate this rule, you are free to play with a house rule, but this *is* how the
strikes are officially supposed to work, and how they were designed to work.
Not all strikes are created equally.
>You cannot "play a strike that you know is going to fail" -
>which you say you can always do, because the DT has corrupted the system
>after someone mis-read too much into the word "immediately" in the rulebook.
>What's wrong with playing it the way the rules are written?
Where in the rulebook does it say that you can't play a strike you know is
going to fail? That you can't play Undead Strength when the combat is at
range? That you can't use a weapon that is being Shattered with first strike?
That you can't use Theft of Vitae on an empty vampire? Everyone is complaining
that an acting minion playing combat ends means the blocking minion can't
burn a card on a strike, yet you seem to have pulled this rule out of a hat.
>If you keep clinging to this false ruling, then more and more silly, circular
>conversations (like the one between me and Joe that prompted your response)
>will pop up - because the ruling isn't solidly based.
The fact that you don't like the rule does not make it inconsistent. These
two strikes are simply different from all of the others. In fact, dodging
isn't really a strike at all (see section 15.1, "Choose Strike").
[ quoted text not captured ]
Brent Burkholder <br...@dvorak.amd.com> wrote:
>So can I use Blood Rage (or Blood Rage, I forget... the thamaturgy version)
>to strike with and prevent weapon damage even though it says it must be
>used at close range? Is this just an instance of a reminder that it isn't
>a ranged attack?
If a strike says it's only usable at close/long range, then you can only
use it if the round is at that range.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <D91Ip...@txnews.amd.com>,
Brent Burkholder <br...@dvorak.amd.com> wrote:
>
>So can I use Blood Rage (or Blood Rage, I forget... the thamaturgy version)
>to strike with and prevent weapon damage even though it says it must be
>used at close range? Is this just an instance of a reminder that it isn't
>a ranged attack?
No. There are no "reminders" - Only at close range means *not* at
long range. (D) used to be a reminder and look where that got it.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <3ptard$9...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>,
Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>>L. Scott Johnson <lsc...@crl.com> wrote:>>I think (as we all know) the point Joe Cochran was trying to make was
>>that even though Dodge and Combat Ends "basically take effect immediately"
>>they really take effect during strike resolution - just like every other
>>strike...>
>Look, I realize everyone here wants to shoehorn dodge and combat ends into
>the same process that all other strikes follow, but they don't. "Combat ends"
No we want to use a consistent set of rules, namely the printed ones.
>ends the combat *immediately*, as the strike is played, before anything else
^
This is completely made up -------------------------+
Nowhere does the rulesbook say "when played" - it describes all of the strike
effects as how they resolve.
>can happen. The effects of Dodge also kick in immediately. If you really
>hate this rule, you are free to play with a house rule, but this *is* how the
>strikes are officially supposed to work, and how they were designed to work.
>Not all strikes are created equally.
>>>You cannot "play a strike that you know is going to fail" -
>>which you say you can always do, because the DT has corrupted the system
>>after someone mis-read too much into the word "immediately" in the rulebook.
>>What's wrong with playing it the way the rules are written?>
>Where in the rulebook does it say that you can't play a strike you know is
>going to fail? That you can't play Undead Strength when the combat is at
It doesn't - that's why you *can* play a strike after the acting minion
plays S:CE.
I was talking about the peculiar case of S:CE.
>range? That you can't use a weapon that is being Shattered with first strike?
>That you can't use Theft of Vitae on an empty vampire? Everyone is complaining
>that an acting minion playing combat ends means the blocking minion can't
>burn a card on a strike, yet you seem to have pulled this rule out of a hat.
Your hat.
>>>If you keep clinging to this false ruling, then more and more silly, circular
>>conversations (like the one between me and Joe that prompted your response)
>>will pop up - because the ruling isn't solidly based.>
>The fact that you don't like the rule does not make it inconsistent. These
>two strikes are simply different from all of the others. In fact, dodging
>isn't really a strike at all (see section 15.1, "Choose Strike").
Hmph. I don't beleive you're flailing this wildly while claiming that
everything is working as expected:
DTR: All dodges are strikes, even if the card forgot to say so.
15.1: "...dodges *may be thought of* as being performed in lieu of a strike."
Two flak jackets *may be thought of* as a well-made peice of
body armor, but it's still two peices of equipment.
What you want to *think of* to make the dodge work is irrelevant to the
fact that the dodge is a strike.
[ quoted text not captured ]
L. Scott Johnson <lsc...@crl.com> wrote:
>>ends the combat *immediately*, as the strike is played, before anything else> ^
>This is completely made up -------------------------+
>Nowhere does the rulesbook say "when played" - it describes all of the strike
>effects as how they resolve.
"Considered a strike, this ends combat immediately (before any damage is
dealt or any strike's effects take place)." Corrected rules, page 8. What
else could that be supposed to mean?
>>Where in the rulebook does it say that you can't play a strike you know is
>>going to fail? That you can't play Undead Strength when the combat is at>It doesn't - that's why you *can* play a strike after the acting minion
>plays S:CE.
>I was talking about the peculiar case of S:CE.
In the case of an acting minion playing combat ends, the combat never
makes it to the "blocking minion strike" step. Not being able to play a strike
following the combat ends is no different from not being able to play a press.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <3pu47p$n...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> aa...@cats.ucsc.edu
(Thomas R Wylie) writes:
>L. Scott Johnson <lsc...@crl.com> wrote:
[CE Official Line deleted]
>>Nowhere does the rulesbook say "when played" - it describes all of the strike
>>effects as how they resolve.>"Considered a strike, this ends combat immediately (before any damage is
>dealt or any strike's effects take place)." Corrected rules, page 8. What
>else could that be supposed to mean?
Lessee, maybe it means exactly what it seems to mean -- that none of
the strikes played do any damage, and that no other strikes have
any effect. It certainly *doesn't* say that no other strikes
can be played, only that other strikes have no effect. Also, that
other things, like retainers, do no damage. Basically, the quote
seems to say that CE is the first thing that happens during
resolution.
The DT may want CE to prevent the playing of any other strikes, but
the rules sure don't read that way. If you were hoping this quote
would convince anyone, you're out of luck -- it's convinced me that,
just as Scott said, the official ruling on CE is plucked from
very thin air.
--
Tom Doehne
doe...@cse.ogi.edu
In article <3ptard$9...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>,
Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>Look, I realize everyone here wants to shoehorn dodge and combat ends into
>the same process that all other strikes follow, but they don't. "Combat ends"
I could say the same thing: "Look, I realize that the DT wants
Combat Ends to be omnipotent, but it's not. Look at the rules." When
CE resolves, combat ends immediately. How else can this be read from
the rules?
>can happen. The effects of Dodge also kick in immediately. If you really
>hate this rule, you are free to play with a house rule, but this *is* how the
>strikes are officially supposed to work, and how they were designed to work.
Yes, they are officially supposed to work this way. Only Dr.
Garfield can convince me that they were designed that way. I'm sorry,
Tom, but I can't respect your opinion on this ruling as to the original
intent of the card.
And for what it's worth, I'll wager that the DT's ruling is
played less often than the house rule.
>Not all strikes are created equally.
No, they're not. CE is superior. Both of us agree on this.
What I don't agree on is creating rules that don't exist.
>>You cannot "play a strike that you know is going to fail" -
>>which you say you can always do, because the DT has corrupted the system
>>after someone mis-read too much into the word "immediately" in the rulebook.
>>What's wrong with playing it the way the rules are written?>>Where in the rulebook does it say that you can't play a strike you know is
>going to fail? That you can't play Undead Strength when the combat is at
It doesn't. *YOU* do when you prohibit me from playing a strike
after a CE has been declared.
>That you can't use Theft of Vitae on an empty vampire? Everyone is complaining
>that an acting minion playing combat ends means the blocking minion can't
>burn a card on a strike, yet you seem to have pulled this rule out of a hat.
But, that's what YOU said! You and the DT said that because
combat ends on declaration of the strike by the attacker, the blocker
can't play a card (which he knows will fail). I'll go dig it up if you
want. You've pegged it exactly, we think that you've pulled this rule
out of a hat!
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <3pu47p$n...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>,
Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>>Nowhere does the rulesbook say "when played" - it describes all of the strike
>>effects as how they resolve.>
>"Considered a strike, this ends combat immediately (before any damage is
>dealt or any strike's effects take place)." Corrected rules, page 8. What
>else could that be supposed to mean?
Well, considering that EVERY other effect described in 15.3
Special Combat Effects (with the exception of Close Quarters which
doesn't actually appear in the game, so I don't know about) is a
description of how a special strike RESOLVES, it looks like it means
that the section you quote is how combat ends RESOLVES during strike
resolution. What else could it mean, given such a strong parallel with
every other combat effect?
[ quoted text not captured ]