Poll for the best (and worst) three new cards in SW

Hi all, i don't know if this has been already done here, anyway i would like to have a poll for your best and worst three new cards in SW, along with a short opinion for each of them. I submit here mine: My best three: 1. Waste Management Operation a very, very, good card, worth to be put almost on any deck. 2. Shock Troops the most innovative and interesting one, great for ciclying your hand, a very good combo with Autarkis Persecution and really useful in weenie rush decks. 3. Telepatic Tracking and (tie) Skin Trap GREAT focus on Tzimisce combat, giving a real edge against S:CE and dodges. Great for enhance combat based decks with song of serenity, trap, carrion crows, drawing out the beast combos (and the like). My top three wallpapers: 1. Bloodform Well, the only use i see is, of course, for a avoid-trouble-in-combat (Tzimisce) deck, but why make it a rare? And, who cares, with all the good strikes cards the Tzimisce can use in combat? IMHO is the top wallpaper because it is a rare, and a rare should do something more...... 2. Meld with the land Hell, untap my enemy........almost same usage scope as above, only minor combos with charnas the imp and disease. Since it is a common, it takes second place in my wallpapers podium. 3. Pattern in the Caos A bit more useful than the top two above, but isn't still worth to be a rare card, and, after all, a steam tunnels is better, even though some PitC may enhance a "watch/discard my enemies' library" deck Your votes? Best Emiliano, v:ekn rince of Rome

On Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:43:59 GMT, "Tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote: >Hi all, >i don't know if this has been already done here, >anyway i would like to have a poll for your best and worst three new cards >in SW, along with a short opinion for each of them. >I submit here mine: > >My best three: > >1. Waste Management Operation >a very, very, good card, worth to be put almost on any deck. Well, in almost any Brujah Antitribu deck, it being all clan-specific and stuff. This wouldn't rank in my "best three". But it's cool as hell. >2. Shock Troops >the most innovative and interesting one, great for ciclying your hand, a >very good combo with Autarkis Persecution and really useful in weenie rush >decks. (shrug) I doubt I'll ever use one. The restrictions on playing it are pretty big, and the twoops really can't do a whole HECK of a lot... sure, Undead Strength+IG+Disarm is entertaining, but... >3. Telepatic Tracking and (tie) Skin Trap >GREAT focus on Tzimisce combat, giving a real edge against S:CE and >dodges. >Great for enhance combat based decks with song of serenity, trap, carrion >crows, drawing out the beast combos (and the like). TT would rank as one of my best, just because it gives Tremere, Toreador, and even Malk combat a boost as well; and those are three clans that traditionally had a bit of trouble, despite Tremere and Toreador each possessing an excellent combat discipline. >My top three wallpapers: > >1. Bloodform >Well, the only use i see is, of course, for a avoid-trouble-in-combat >(Tzimisce) deck, >but why make it a rare? >And, who cares, with all the good strikes cards the Tzimisce can use in >combat? >IMHO is the top wallpaper because it is a rare, and a rare should do >something more...... It's *too* rare, from what I can tell. You need multiples in a deck, and I don't know that I've even SEEN one yet. =/ At least some rares are possible to get a few of, but... >2. Meld with the land >Hell, untap my enemy........almost same usage scope as above, >only minor combos with charnas the imp and disease. >Since it is a common, it takes second place in my wallpapers podium. This is one of the best things for the Tzimisce! Aren't you tired of having your Pulsed bleeds deflected to your grandprey? Tell them to go ahead and block, and then Meld at inferior; they untap and are able to block again, and neither you nor they take any damage. This card ranks in my top three, easily. >3. Pattern in the Caos >A bit more useful than the top two above, >but isn't still worth to be a rare card, and, after all, a steam tunnels is >better, even though some PitC may enhance a "watch/discard my enemies' >library" deck Patterns text: "look at the contents of that Methuselah's hand"? OK, I'm gonna toss some stuff out at you here. With obf/aus/DEM, you can play: Night Moves Scrying of Secrets Patterns in the Chaos and you will know either your prey's OR predator's entire hand, and his next seven cards. Let me assure you, this kind of information is INCREDIBLY useful to any deck, especially when you include a few Revelations to selectively remove cards from your prey's hand (oh, say, DEFLECTION). If you don't want your Patterns, please tell me what you'd want for them. I'm sure we can cut a deal. It wouldn't rank in my top three, but definitely in my top five. I already mentioned two of the top three above: Telepathic Tracking and Meld with the Land. Third would have to be Courier; an ally that doesn't have to ever take actions, costs BLOOD (not pool), and comes with a bleed of 1 so that when it all comes down to it, it's never a total waste of time recruiting the ally even if you never force the discard of anything useful. And it's NOT UNIQUE. Once you get three Couriers, your victims pretty much never get any of their useful cards, especially if you're chucking around Night Moves. -- Derek "There's hands everywhere!" -- N. Stewart

Tetragrammaton wrote: << 1. Waste Management Operation a very, very, good card, worth to be put almost on any deck. >> Well, ya know, if you are the Anti-Brujah... << 2. Shock Troops the most innovative and interesting one, great for ciclying your hand, a very good combo with Autarkis Persecution and really useful in weenie rush decks. >> It is interesting, but I am yet to see it be acutally useful--you need to have a lot of skill cards to make it work, and a lot of skill cards uses up your master slots really quickly. And if you are going to have lots of skill cards, you are going to need lots of Shock Troops, to make it worth including the lots of skill cards. And that is prety much all of your master slots, especially in a weenie rush deck. I'm not saying it is awful or anything, but it strikes me as very limitedly useful--funny when you can make use of it, but it isn't going to happen all that often. << 3. Telepatic Tracking and (tie) Skin Trap >> Hmm. These are only good if you think it is acceptable for there to be more combat options in this game. Oh, wait. That's me! Yeah, your correct. These cards are good. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/bakija6 "Why so many swords?" "I must kill many." -Kikuchiyo

>Hi all, >i don't know if this has been already done here, >anyway i would like to have a poll for your best and worst three new cards >in SW, along with a short opinion for each of them. 1. Telepathic Tracking While you mentioned the merits of Telepathic Tracking in Tzimisce decks, I think it is just as useful (if not more) for Tremere and !Tremere decks. This card makes all those 2nd round combat cards *so* much more useful. Now all you have to do is survive the first round.... 2. Black Metamorphosis This one is just awesomely cool! A free additional strike every round is enough to make even the Celerity users jealous and the optional press is just gravy. 3. Waste Management Operation Here's another one where I agree with you. Indeed, I've also considered putting it into a lot of my decks (albeit with Clan Impersonation). It has a great deal of untapped potential and is just dying to be used properly. (Runners-Up) Vagabond Mystic and Pier 13 are pretty cool too. They make allies and weapons that much more viable. >My top three wallpapers: 1. Blood Siege First off, I hate this card. I don't really like the concept that the Sabbat can just go to any old city (let's say London) and create an Archbishop there. I just think the entire concept is sorta lame. But, my personal thoughts aside, not only can you not play any action modifiers, but any ready vampires can burn blood to gain votes, making it even harder to make it pass. Although it can be mildly useful for picking off Princes and giving yourself some extra Archbishops, it seems like too much work to try to use this card properly. 2. Reality Mirror I'm sure it has some entertainment and surprise value but really. The limitation to once per game really hamstrings it (though I agree with the limitation). I suppose the one time you play can help a bit, but I seriously doubt how useful it is overall. 3. High Museum of Art, Atlanta It really isn't that great. I suppose it could be a minor boon to intercept decks, but even then I'd rather have a PB Chicago or D.C. It's amusing to steal back and forth but it really isn't worth the effort since it'll just get stolen again. Another fun card but I don't think it has that much utility (besides as bait). (Runners Up) Patters in the Chaos, Personal Scourge, and Meld with the Land just make me scream "Why? Why? Why?" Alternatively, what do people think of as the best and worst new vampires in SW? Halcyan 2

"Tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message news: zBAA6.54$xC3....@news.infostrada.it... > Hi all, > i don't know if this has been already done here, > anyway i would like to have a poll for your best and worst three new cards > in SW, along with a short opinion for each of them. Best 3 Imho : 1 Kite (built in intercetp, 1 voice, cool disciplines) 2 black metamorphosis (additional strikes forever, each round of combat !) 3 chiropteran maurauder (just what the Tzee' needed) worst 3 Imho : 1 The haunting (no way this crap will ever replace Derange) 2 San Nicola de Los Servitas (what the f*** ???) 3 Kraken's Kiss (better put another Breath of the dragon instead)

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio news:qg06dtcsa4fnr85se...@4ax.com... > On Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:43:59 GMT, "Tetragrammaton" > <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote: > <snip> > >My best three: > > > >1. Waste Management Operation > >a very, very, good card, worth to be put almost on any deck. > > Well, in almost any Brujah Antitribu deck, it being all clan-specific > and stuff. IMHO, WMO is so good that it worths a clan impersonation in many decks..... > This wouldn't rank in my "best three". But it's cool as hell. > > >2. Shock Troops > >the most innovative and interesting one, great for ciclying your hand, a > >very good combo with Autarkis Persecution and really useful in weenie rush > >decks. > > (shrug) I doubt I'll ever use one. The restrictions on playing it > are pretty big, and the twoops really can't do a whole HECK of a > lot... sure, Undead Strength+IG+Disarm is entertaining, but... I would add increased strenghts as well. And Autarkis persecution in the same turn grants you back all the pool spent for the ST. Yes, you have to have the referendum succesful, but with a Brujah/brujah anti votes/rush based deck ,votes shouldn't be a problem <snip> > TT would rank as one of my best, just because it gives Tremere, > Toreador, and even Malk combat a boost as well; and those are three > clans that traditionally had a bit of trouble, despite Tremere and > Toreador each possessing an excellent combat discipline. > Agree 100%. > >My top three wallpapers: > > > >1. Bloodform > > <snip> > It's *too* rare, from what I can tell. You need multiples in a deck, > and I don't know that I've even SEEN one yet. =/ At least some rares > are possible to get a few of, but... > I don't catch well the sense above. Why should i need multiple (bloodfor) wallpapers ? Yes, the fact it is a rare means that you are not going to find many of it but the rare slot in a booster should deserve a better card than a bloodform. I found three of them......maybe it is less rare in Italy....... > >2. Meld with the land > This is one of the best things for the Tzimisce! Aren't you tired of > having your Pulsed bleeds deflected to your grandprey? Tell them to > go ahead and block, and then Meld at inferior; they untap and are able > to block again, and neither you nor they take any damage. > > This card ranks in my top three, easily. > Ok, i see your point and a bit more usage for MwtL now. However, i find it still a wallpaper, preferring for the strategy you say above Change of Target, which doesn't require discipline at all, and untap my minion as well. > >3. Pattern in the Caos > >A bit more useful than the top two above, > >but isn't still worth to be a rare card, and, after all, a steam tunnels is > >better, even though some PitC may enhance a "watch/discard my enemies' > >library" deck > > Patterns text: "look at the contents of that Methuselah's hand"? Yes, clarifying, i was meaning a "watch/discard my enemies hand/library deck". > > OK, I'm gonna toss some stuff out at you here. With obf/aus/DEM, you > can play: > > Night Moves > Scrying of Secrets > Patterns in the Chaos > > and you will know either your prey's OR predator's entire hand, and > his next seven cards. Let me assure you, this kind of information is > INCREDIBLY useful to any deck, especially when you include a few > Revelations to selectively remove cards from your prey's hand (oh, > say, DEFLECTION). If you don't want your Patterns, please tell me > what you'd want for them. I'm sure we can cut a deal. True,the combo is nice. However i find better put into play directly a Revelation at superior, (affect only my prey, yes, but i focus almost only on my prey with such decks) that ease me the pain to rely on that three-combo-card above (nice, anyway), and annoys my prey, that must use one of her a minions to get rid of my revelation(s). True, your combo is perfectly compatible with such a "revelation deck" However PitC is still a rare, and, i hope you see my point, it should do at least a bit more. > It wouldn't rank in my top three, but definitely in my top five. > > I already mentioned two of the top three above: Telepathic Tracking > and Meld with the Land. Third would have to be Courier; an ally that > doesn't have to ever take actions, costs BLOOD (not pool), and comes > with a bleed of 1 so that when it all comes down to it, it's never a > total waste of time recruiting the ally even if you never force the > discard of anything useful. And it's NOT UNIQUE. Once you get three > Couriers, your victims pretty much never get any of their useful > cards, especially if you're chucking around Night Moves. Agree 100% about the courier, let' say that i put it at second place, instead of Shock Troops. Best Emiliano, vekn prince of Rome [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] I see. In my mind: 2 parthenons, 4 storage annex, 4 shock troops, 10 or so potence, should do the right number for the masters in a such shock troops deck, along with a weenie rush crypt, with rake, volker, sela and other cheap voting/good for rush vamps in it (to have the autarkis pers succesful). Just an idea, since i stil haven't got a shock troops so far.......but i'm gonna to test that with proxy cards..... > > << 3. Telepatic Tracking and (tie) Skin Trap >> > > Hmm. These are only good if you think it is acceptable for there to be more > combat options in this game. Oh, wait. That's me! Yeah, your correct. These > cards are good. > So you don't like card such Immortal grapple and DotB. I see your point, but until first strike is the last in the "chain of food" of combat, i think there are not other solutions but those dodge and s:ce hosers. Best Emiliano, Pince of Rome. [ quoted text not captured ]

Tetragrammaton schrieb: > Hi all, > i don't know if this has been already done here, > anyway i would like to have a poll for your best and worst three new cards > in SW, along with a short opinion for each of them. > I submit here mine: > Well, let me think... Best: 1. Telepathic Tracking Enough people explained that one already. 2. Chiroptean Marauder For some reason, Tzimisce seem all ther rage around here lately, and Bloodform and Meld with Land aren't it. 3. Black Metamorphosis Just for the record, if Lasombra didn't have Potence, it wouldn't be half as good. Worst: 1.&2. Bloodform & Meld with Land Now you can play a scared of combat Tzimisce deck. Like that is going to happen... 3. Blood Siege Well, unless you're absolutely positive you'll be facing Camarilla political not strong enough to stop this vote, is there any use to this card? Thomas

"Tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> > > << 2. Shock Troops > > the most innovative and interesting one, great for ciclying your hand, a > > very good combo with Autarkis Persecution and really useful in weenie rush > > decks. >> > In my mind: 2 parthenons, 4 storage annex, 4 shock troops, 10 or so potence, > should do the right number for the masters > in a such shock troops deck, along with a weenie rush > crypt, with rake, volker, sela and other cheap voting/good for rush vamps in > it (to have the autarkis pers succesful). > Just an idea, since i stil haven't got a shock troops so far.......but i'm > gonna to test that with proxy cards..... Don't even bother try this. Shock troops is crap as it is worded. It requires a ready Archbishop or Cardinal, so cannot be played early in the game, since ALL are 9 cap vampires. You may want to pass a crusade referendum early, but you must rely on stealth and vote gain, which small Sabbat vamp can't handle. (in fact the only one who can handle this, Lena Rowe, cannot bear a title !!) The discipline cards will eventually jam your hand, if you don't draw shock troops or, worst, be sudden reversaled; and the newly created vampires cannot even attempt bleed, the most basic action in the game. It's the kind of card who looks cool at first glance, but after trying to include it in a deck, you see it cannot work. Then you try to conceive a deck revolving around the card (wow ! look, nice combo idea with Cairo Airport !) but after two nights of "cut and paste" you realize it was not worth trying. Better play Information highway and put a lot of 2 cap vampires in your crypt. I hope i helped you not waste your time =) -- Card text : Master, cost : X Requires a ready Archbishop or Cardinal. Put X Master: Discipline cards from your hand into play. These cards represent clanless Sabbat vampires of 1 capacity with those respective Disciplines and do not count as Master: Discipline cards while in play. These vampires are not unique, must hunt the turn they are created, have -1 stealth on all actions and cannot attempt bleeds or political actions. -- reyda

Best three: 1) Storage Annex - great for saving up cards for a good combo; useful for many types of decks; free; helps cycle cards. 2) Greta Kirschner - her ability is fantastic and doesn't even require her to be untapped; her disciplines are great too--obf will help get a few weapons out 3) Powerbase: Montreal - Always useful for that extra influence; stealable but that works both ways and usable in the turn you steal it; no cost; makes for good bait; features a Canadian city. Some runner ups: (All previously mentioned by others), Blood of the Sabbat, Private Audience, Eternal Vigilance, Path of Metamorphosis (only because Tzimmies NEED blood badly) ---------------------------------------------------------- Worst three: 1) Darkness Within - too much work, not enough payoff 2) Lobotomy - pretty much only useful for protecting War Ghouls from Far Mastery--how corner case is that? 3) Regent - should read 'paint a target on your forehead' Except for some of the awful cards that were reprinted for Sabbat War, I have to say that most of the new cards are useful and cool. I had a much harder time deciding which ones to include here and even the three above are not *that* bad. In general, the design team did a fantastic job. --------------------------------------------------------------- Now let's do the best and worst three of each discipline! We can pass the time until Final Nights comes out... Cheers, WES

>Don't even bother try this. Shock troops is crap as it is worded. Would be a lot better if an idea from other games was stolen. Should have a trait in either B5 lingo "irrevocable" or Magic lingo "uncounterable". IOW, can't be Sudden Reversed. Right now, you can never rely on it, which is horrible for a card that necessitates building a deck around it. Nor is this the only card that should have such a trait. I'd like to see cards that require building a deck around them be made unSRable and unDIable. Maybe some others. Unique cards would make good uncounterable cards, for instance.

<...> > Don't even bother try this. Shock troops is crap as it is worded. > It requires a ready Archbishop or Cardinal, so cannot be played early in the > game, since ALL are 9 cap vampires. You may want to pass a crusade > referendum early, but you must rely on stealth and vote gain, which small > Sabbat vamp can't handle. (in fact the only one who can handle this, Lena > Rowe, cannot bear a title !!) The discipline cards will eventually jam your > hand, if you don't draw shock troops or, worst, be sudden reversaled; I'm not sure what you mean here. the Sudden doesn't keep you from playing the skill cards. you play them together with the ST. Or am I completely wrong here? <...>

> i would like to have a poll for your best and worst three new cards >in SW, along with a short opinion for each of them. Best: Chiropteran Marauder - great flexibility. Lunatic Eruption - surprisingly powerful effect, makes all the difference for one of my decks to get this into play. Powerbase: Montreal - so useful I hate seeing it played. Worst: Lobotomy - timing it is a nightmare, let alone what impact it might have. Restructure - too narrow of use. Personal Scourge - wrong discipline to be useful, lacks synergy with other clan disciplines. This is just based on perceived play value. Some cards I probably like better or hate more.

>Meld with the Land just make me >scream "Why? Why? Why?" I'm really surprised by the feelings towards Meld. I kind of think S:CE is a powerful effect. Ignoring the "untap my grand prey whom I just got bounced to" play (since it really isn't something to rely on), there are combat situations that aren't favorable even to Tzimisce decks heavy with combat. >Alternatively, what do people think of as the best and worst new vampires in >SW? Most likely to play: Dolphin Caliban Greta Least: Idalia Shannon Peter

On Tue, 10 Apr 2001, Thomas Pichler wrote: > 3. Blood Siege > Well, unless you're absolutely positive you'll be facing Camarilla political > not strong enough to stop this vote, is there any use to this card? > > Thomas Well, my thought was that a) it potentially can hose Tradition decks, by removing their princes, and b) it's one of the best cards for combining with Smiling Jack. Yes, it's a bit of a gamble that your opponent(s) will have Princes, but in my circle at least, it's rare that *someone* isn't playing them. Plus, it's a vote that you can win without having any titles on the table, that *gets* you a title, which can be handy, especially if you've got a couple of high-end title-less vampires, which there seem to be no shortage of in the Sabbat clans. it's still not the greatest card in the world, much less the set, but it's certainly better than: 1) San Nicolas de los Servitas: 2 blood to only *partly* protect me from directed actions against one of my vampires, AND it's a rare, AND it causes me damage if I lose it. And boy, those Lasombra sure do need protecting.. 2) Blood Brother Ambush: Costs my vampire 2 blood, in exchange for doing an extra point of damage and *only* losing the two blood cost - and if I have the potence cards to pump them up with, odds are the vampire *already* has Potence, what with being a Brujah Antitribu. There's all of TWO vampires in the SW set capable of bringing a BBA into play who lack any potence. Sure, it's a nice defense against aggravated damage, but to add to the fun, it only works when you get blocked. So glad they reprinted this card. 3) Camarilla Threat: Like Sabbat threat, only worse - you can't pick and choose who it hurts, including yourself, it can be gotten rid of with a vote, and isn't even certain to hurt anyone ever. And to make it *not* hurt you, you have to include other cards in your deck (Barrens, mainly) taking up more space in your limited number of cards for a 'maybe this will hurt the right person' card. -John Flournoy

In article <3AD33061...@aon.at>, Thomas Pichler <tom.p...@aon.at> wrote: >Worst: >1.&2. Bloodform & Meld with Land >Now you can play a scared of combat Tzimisce deck. Like that is going to >happen... Bloodform is very, very useful, and I'm sad to see all the Bloodform-bashing on this thread. Hint: It's not a combat defence card. It's an offence card. For Sascha Vykos. Bloodform/Carrion Crows/Weather Control/Trap. No striking required. Note that Bloodform gives an immunity, not prevention, so Sascha takes no damage from Weather Control. Note also that THA isn't required, so grafting tha onto VIC/[ANI|ani] vampires is eminently feasible. Season with Telepathic Tracking in case of SCE. >3. Blood Siege >Well, unless you're absolutely positive you'll be facing Camarilla political >not strong enough to stop this vote, is there any use to this card? Like the also-maligned Business Pressure, the use of Blood Siege is subtle. It's not so much about passing the vote, but about how much damage you can induce the other players to self-inflict in voting it down. Making a player blow 3 pool voting down your Business Pressured First Tradition or having them burn 5 blood off a 6-capacity vampire to vote down your Blood Siege is still a very decent win. gomi -- Individually, I love you all with affection unspeakable; but, collectively, I look upon you with a disgust that amounts to absolute detestation. - Gilbert and Sullivan, 'Pirates of Penzance'

> >Hi all, >i don't know if this has been already done here, >anyway i would like to have a poll for your best and worst three new cards >in SW, along with a short opinion for each of them. OK. Dead easy this... Best 1) Blood of the Sabbat. This REALLY kicks ass. Since it includes bleeds and rushes (2 things the Sabbat do best), it is a really useful way of gen. think about it - Night Moves, Blood of the Sabbat, Blood Doll. Since the Sabbat glorify in Weenies, you should be able to keep going for ages if you tool enough weenies up. Since the Sabbat suck at gen, this is a really useful card. 2) Powebase Montreal - Just so neat. Perfect again for weenies with Obf (to get it back lots!) or the Tzimisce (come and get it). 3) Black Metamorphosis - yes, everyone else loves it, but it is too useful to pass up. Great with Jacko, n'est pas? Worst 1) Personal Scorge. Why? 2) Reality Mirror. Prayer card. At best. 3) Haven Affinity. Yes, in theory, great, but most of the "decent" Tzimisce have all disciplines at superior anyway (Meshenka, Little Tailor, Caleban) or at leat close too it (Corrine, Devin). Best use the Master slot for a discipline card. I think the only vampire who gets any real benefit out of this one is Anton, who costs 8 pool anyway! Why pay pool for that? New category - most "Interesting" cards: 1) The Coven. this came into play in a game I had with Tom Kassel the other day, and it really made the game interesting. 2) Regent. Nice concept. I think this is a potetially cool card, especaily if used with a Secure Haven. 3) Shock Troops. Virtually Impossible to break, but there is a deck concept in there - again using the Regent as a starting block. I was thinking using Lasombras, obt, and Shadow Twins. Or !Tremere and Cryptic Missions. Both have useful vamps with Obf in there (Gratiano for example) allowing Psychic Veils... DH

In message <9avc93$n8q$1...@news2.isdnet.net>, Reyda <re...@noos.fr> writes >Don't even bother try this. Shock troops is crap as it is worded. This is more generally referred to as "balanced". -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F What's the meaning when you speak with so much feeling? B457CA213D7E6 Is it over when you're sober? Is it junk? 68C3695D623D5D

Tetragrammaton wrote: << I see. In my mind: 2 parthenons, 4 storage annex, 4 shock troops, 10 or so potence, should do the right number for the masters in a such shock troops deck, along with a weenie rush crypt, with rake, volker, sela and other cheap voting/good for rush vamps in it (to have the autarkis pers succesful). >> Yeah, that just isn't going to work. 20 Masters is way too many for a sucessful combat deck, especially when none of them are pool management or Haven Uncovereds. << So you don't like card such Immortal grapple and DotB. >> No, no, you are just missing out on my sarcasm. I suspect it is a language thing. [ quoted text not captured ]

> New category - most "Interesting" cards: > > 1) The Coven. this came into play in a game I had with Tom Kassel the other > day, and it really made the game interesting. Been a recent game-saver for me recently. In a way, it's "combat defense" in one card. Overall, Sabbat War added more ways to beat people up than it added ways to not get beat up. The huge bonus is that you can tap it at ANY time. If I go to perform a rescue action, an intercept deck can choose to simply block the hunt, instead. Rescue, tap coven, ready for action with two blood on them! This got shown to be with a Third Tradition Progeny I was going to block of my prey when he used "my" Coven to do this. Nevertheless, the card overall helps me more than it hurts me. Doesn't belong in every deck, by far, but it belongs in a LOT of decks. Especially with the 0-MPA use (effectively, MooT points aside). Powerbase Montreal is similar, but I've taken to just stealing someone else's instead of putting one in my own deck. See a lot of them 'round these parts. -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta

In message <20010410102713...@ng-md1.aol.com>, Halcyan 2 <halc...@aol.com> writes >1. Blood Siege >First off, I hate this card. I don't really like the concept that the Sabbat >can just go to any old city (let's say London) and create an Archbishop there. >I just think the entire concept is sorta lame. It fits thematically. Look at the entire clan novel series in terms, not of vampires and story, but as a strategic exercise of nick and tuck through praxis after praxis. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> ha scritto nel messaggio news:20010410172601...@ng-cq1.aol.com... > Tetragrammaton wrote: > << I see. > In my mind: 2 parthenons, 4 storage annex, 4 shock troops, 10 or so potence, > should do the right number for the masters > in a such shock troops deck, along with a weenie rush > crypt, with rake, volker, sela and other cheap voting/good for rush vamps in > it > (to have the autarkis pers succesful). >> > > Yeah, that just isn't going to work. 20 Masters is way too many for a sucessful > combat deck, especially when none of them are pool management or Haven > Uncovereds. Why not? after all 20+ masters, with about 3 - 4 of them (disciplines, both from your hand and the storages) you are supposed to cycle at once just in a master phase. No problem in adding further 8 masters (both blood dolls and haven uncoverd) It doesn't seems me so bad, but as i said, i'll try this deck idea with some proxy ST...... > > << So you don't like card such Immortal grapple and DotB. >> > > No, no, you are just missing out on my sarcasm. I suspect it is a language > thing. > Indeed......sorry for my bad understanding......... Best Emiliano, vekn prince of Rome > > > > [ quoted text not captured ]

"John Flournoy" <flo...@charlie.cns.iit.edu> wrote > 3) Camarilla Threat: Like Sabbat threat, only worse - you can't pick and > choose who it hurts, including yourself, it can be gotten rid of with a > vote, and isn't even certain to hurt anyone ever. And to make it *not* > hurt you, you have to include other cards in your deck (Barrens, > mainly) taking up more space in your limited number of cards for a 'maybe > this will hurt the right person' card. Camarilla Threat works well if you want to jam up your opponent's hand with cards. If you have a Barrens and Camarilla Threat is on the table, you're going to be fine while they'll be paying to make their deck function normally. It's not *great* but it isn't that bad. Sabbat Threat has found new respect from me as well; I mainly use it as a way to manage the table in my weenie vote deck. When each Methuselah is losing three pool a turn from Anarch Revolts and my prey is losing an additional one or two from Sabbat Threat, the other Methuselahs are a little less eager to allow my prey to bleed for the Edge. Every pool counts. I originally threw them in because I was lacking KRC cards but it seems to serve me well each time I play it. Cheers, WES

>>Meld with the Land just make me >>scream "Why? Why? Why?" > >I'm really surprised by the feelings towards Meld. I kind of think S:CE is a >powerful effect. Ignoring the "untap my grand prey whom I just got bounced >to" >play (since it really isn't something to rely on), there are combat >situations >that aren't favorable even to Tzimisce decks heavy with combat. It's not that I don't like S:CE, but I just don't think Vicissitude would be the discipline that needs it. Usually, the Tzimisce WANT to stay in combat. And sure, there might be some special cases when they want out, but I just feel it doesn't belong in Vicissitude. Sort of like seeing some S:CE card in Quietus... Halcyan 2

On Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:52:55 GMT, "Tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio >news:qg06dtcsa4fnr85se...@4ax.com... >> On Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:43:59 GMT, "Tetragrammaton" >> <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> ><snip> >> >My best three: >> > >> >1. Waste Management Operation >> >a very, very, good card, worth to be put almost on any deck. >> >> Well, in almost any Brujah Antitribu deck, it being all clan-specific >> and stuff. > >IMHO, WMO is so good that it worths a clan impersonation in many decks..... I think this is a prayer combo. Not only do you have to get the Clan Impersonation, you have to spend 2 blood and an action on it, and then you have to draw up the WMO *after* you do the Clan Impersonation. And THEN, you have to run out of cards in your deck! That's too many moving parts for me. Leaves too much to luck. >> >2. Shock Troops >> >the most innovative and interesting one, great for ciclying your hand, a >> >very good combo with Autarkis Persecution and really useful in weenie >rush >> >decks. >> >> (shrug) I doubt I'll ever use one. The restrictions on playing it >> are pretty big, and the twoops really can't do a whole HECK of a >> lot... sure, Undead Strength+IG+Disarm is entertaining, but... > >I would add increased strenghts as well. four cards per combat, in a deck that's master-and-skill-card heavy. Not so good. >And Autarkis persecution in the same turn grants you >back all the pool spent for the ST. I don't personally see that vote passing. :) >Yes, you have to have the referendum >succesful, but with a Brujah/brujah anti votes/rush >based deck ,votes shouldn't be a problem You have to have an Archbishop or Priscus to play the Troops to begin with. That means Salinger or Bronwen - a 9 and 10 cap respectively. If you're including Bewitching Orations, that's great, but I think you'll still end up with hand trouble and get defeated by table votes. >> >My top three wallpapers: >> > >> >1. Bloodform >> > ><snip> > >> It's *too* rare, from what I can tell. You need multiples in a deck, >> and I don't know that I've even SEEN one yet. =/ At least some rares >> are possible to get a few of, but... > >I don't catch well the sense above. >Why should i need multiple (bloodfor) wallpapers ? >Yes, the fact it is a rare means that you are not going to find many of it >but the rare slot in a booster should deserve a better card than a >bloodform. >I found three of them......maybe it is less rare in Italy....... You want to be able to be immune to damage more than once per game, right? Intercept/Bloodform makes perfectly good sense. And you're missing something. This ain't Magic: Rares aren't SUPPOSED to be the most powerful cards. Telepathic Tracking is an uncommon. By your logic, it should be rare. >> >2. Meld with the land > >> This is one of the best things for the Tzimisce! Aren't you tired of >> having your Pulsed bleeds deflected to your grandprey? Tell them to >> go ahead and block, and then Meld at inferior; they untap and are able >> to block again, and neither you nor they take any damage. >> >> This card ranks in my top three, easily. > >Ok, i see your point and a bit more usage for MwtL now. >However, i find it still a wallpaper, preferring for the strategy you say >above >Change of Target, which doesn't require discipline at all, and untap my >minion as well. Using Meld with the Land means that when your prey just blocks you instead of Deflecting, that you can play it at superior and let their little butts stay tapped - something Change of Target does not do. AND, it can serve as combat defense when people decide to Bum's Rush you. I have a bleed deck that uses a mix of both MWTL and CoT; more MWTL. The CoT is just there to draw out Wakes. >> OK, I'm gonna toss some stuff out at you here. With obf/aus/DEM, you >> can play: >> >> Night Moves >> Scrying of Secrets >> Patterns in the Chaos >> >> and you will know either your prey's OR predator's entire hand, and >> his next seven cards. Let me assure you, this kind of information is >> INCREDIBLY useful to any deck, especially when you include a few >> Revelations to selectively remove cards from your prey's hand (oh, >> say, DEFLECTION). If you don't want your Patterns, please tell me >> what you'd want for them. I'm sure we can cut a deal. > >True,the combo is nice. >However i find better put into play directly a Revelation at superior, Doesn't tell you what they're going to be drawing up, and whether or not you should let them cycle. >(affect only my prey, yes, but >i focus almost only on my prey with such decks) that ease Why just your prey? Scrying of Secrets at superior lets you dump bleed cards out of your predator's hand. Valuable. >me the pain to rely on that three-combo-card above (nice, anyway), and >annoys >my prey, that must use one of her >a minions to get rid of my revelation(s). See below. (And three cards is well within range.) >True, your combo is perfectly compatible with such a "revelation deck" >However PitC is still a rare, and, i hope you see my point, it should do at >least a bit more. Due to our metagame in Atlanta, I routinely play with a predator's Revelations at superior on me. I find that it's a waste of effort to attempt to remove it, as for the most part decks that play it intend to defend against the action to remove it; I just figure that I'm playing with a handicap. Mike Perlman tends to do the same. And we've found that the handicap is pretty small, really... especially if you're playing a combat deck. Intimidation on a stick. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:06:31 -0400, "Wes" <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net> wrote: >3) Regent - should read 'paint a target on your forehead' "I place this Regent on Jacko." ... nuff said =) [ quoted text not captured ]

Tetragrammaton wrote: > Hi all, > i don't know if this has been already done here, > anyway i would like to have a poll for your best and worst three new cards > in SW, along with a short opinion for each of them. Best: 1. Pier 13, as it allowed me to finally build a decent gun-deck. 2. Waste Management Operation, as it helped that deck out too (recycling Dragon's Breath Rounds, bwahahahaha). 3. Powerbase: Madrid. But why? Who needs reasons when you've got votes..? Worst: Vic S:CE. Why play S:CE when you can play cards that do your opponent multiple agg damage? Best Vampires: 1. Lucita 2. Talley, the Hound 3. Sascha Vykos (all for Story reasons) Worst Vampires: 1. Nickolai 2 and 3. Other !Tre, because they don't exist! Duncan Campbell "I liked white better."

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio news:6ls7dto4anjvtajsm...@4ax.com... > On Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:52:55 GMT, "Tetragrammaton" > <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio > >news:qg06dtcsa4fnr85se...@4ax.com... > >> On Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:43:59 GMT, "Tetragrammaton" > >> <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> > ><snip> > I think this is a prayer combo. Not only do you have to get the Clan > Impersonation, you have to spend 2 blood and an action on it, and then > you have to draw up the WMO *after* you do the Clan Impersonation. > And THEN, you have to run out of cards in your deck! > > That's too many moving parts for me. Leaves too much to luck. > > >> >2. Shock Troops <snip> > You have to have an Archbishop or Priscus to play the Troops to begin > with. That means Salinger or Bronwen - a 9 and 10 cap respectively. > If you're including Bewitching Orations, that's great, but I think > you'll still end up with hand trouble and get defeated by table votes. Yes, now ST seems me a bit less good..... Nonetheless, it worths a try.... > >> >My top three wallpapers: > >> > > >> >1. Bloodform > >> > > ><snip> > > > >> It's *too* rare, from what I can tell. You need multiples in a deck, > >> and I don't know that I've even SEEN one yet. =/ At least some rares > >> are possible to get a few of, but... > > > >I don't catch well the sense above. > >Why should i need multiple (bloodfor) wallpapers ? > >Yes, the fact it is a rare means that you are not going to find many of it > >but the rare slot in a booster should deserve a better card than a > >bloodform. > >I found three of them......maybe it is less rare in Italy....... > > You want to be able to be immune to damage more than once per game, > right? Intercept/Bloodform makes perfectly good sense. > You would be immune only (with superior bloodform) to nonaggravated damage, that is, gangrel (and burning wraths too) hurts you plenty. And it makes more sense to put any of the other good-for-combat vicssitude cards, Derek. If you plain to got an intercept deck, is senseless to don't rely on combat menace "if i catcth you, i will hurt you". As far as i can see, that is what the Tzimisce intercept deck do at his best. > And you're missing something. This ain't Magic: Rares aren't SUPPOSED > to be the most powerful cards. Telepathic Tracking is an uncommon. > By your logic, it should be rare. No magic, sure.. A rare should not be the most powerful, true, but not a wallpaper either, i think. And c'mon, bloodform IS wallpaper. > >> >2. Meld with the land > > > >> This is one of the best things for the Tzimisce! Aren't you tired of > >> having your Pulsed bleeds deflected to your grandprey? Tell them to > >> go ahead and block, and then Meld at inferior; they untap and are able > >> to block again, and neither you nor they take any damage. > >> > >> This card ranks in my top three, easily. > > > >Ok, i see your point and a bit more usage for MwtL now. > >However, i find it still a wallpaper, preferring for the strategy you say > >above > >Change of Target, which doesn't require discipline at all, and untap my > >minion as well. > > Using Meld with the Land means that when your prey just blocks you > instead of Deflecting, that you can play it at superior and let their > little butts stay tapped - something Change of Target does not do. Ok, so you need to have vic at superior, that all the decent tzimisce have (Meshenka, Caleban; Little Tailor, Corinne Marçon....all pretty capacity vamps) And tell me if you want to waste all the combat potence of such vamps to play a meldwtl at superior, once your PREY blocks you. Of course you can do, but i would spare my sup vicissitudes for something better, in a combat....... > AND, it can serve as combat defense when people decide to Bum's Rush > you. I have a bleed deck that uses a mix of both MWTL and CoT; more > MWTL. The CoT is just there to draw out Wakes. > Who wants to bum rush you, now that vicissitude is even more powerul than before, with skin traps, chiropteran marauders and the like? <snip> > >True,the combo is nice. > >However i find better put into play directly a Revelation at superior, > > Doesn't tell you what they're going to be drawing up, and whether or > not you should let them cycle. A steam tunnels, as i said, tell me just that for my incoming minion phase, and i don't need to get an action succesful for it, and is permanent. And is (...was..) uncommon. Still, your combo is perfectly doable and useful. I like it. > >(affect only my prey, yes, but > >i focus almost only on my prey with such decks) that ease > > Why just your prey? Scrying of Secrets at superior lets you dump > bleed cards out of your predator's hand. Valuable. Well, just for my gaming taste, that is: i-do-all-against-my-prey style. Best Emiliano, vekn Prince of rome <snip> [ quoted text not captured ]

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message news: > (snipped a lot, but thinking the same as derek) > You have to have an Archbishop or Priscus to play the Troops to begin > with. That means Salinger or Bronwen - a 9 and 10 cap respectively. No, you need an Archbishop or Cardinal, which means Salinger, and Salinger only. If a Lasombra or Tzimisce has not removed the Salinger Threat from play by poking, entombing, banishing him =) (snip snip) > Due to our metagame in Atlanta, I routinely play with a predator's > Revelations at superior on me. I find that it's a waste of effort to > attempt to remove it, as for the most part decks that play it intend > to defend against the action to remove it; I just figure that I'm > playing with a handicap. Mike Perlman tends to do the same. And > we've found that the handicap is pretty small, really... especially if > you're playing a combat deck. Intimidation on a stick. Revelation's popularity has also increased recently in our playgroup. The best thing when your hand is visible, is maybe playing like you, showing a smiling face and saying you won't bother removing it. You can also point it's an incredible advantage for your predator and try to convince other players to remove the revelation for you -you will then owe them a favor, like sacrificing a vampire to diablerie, rescuing another vamp... Even if you can't "bluff" anymore, you can still try your social charm =) it works most of time if you're skilled enough. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:06:46 GMT, "Tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio >news:6ls7dto4anjvtajsm...@4ax.com... >> You have to have an Archbishop or Priscus to play the Troops to begin >> with. That means Salinger or Bronwen - a 9 and 10 cap respectively. >> If you're including Bewitching Orations, that's great, but I think >> you'll still end up with hand trouble and get defeated by table votes. > >Yes, now ST seems me a bit less good..... >Nonetheless, it worths a try.... Oops. And even worse, I misread Shock Troops. Apparently you need an Archbishop or Cardinal. That kicks Bronwen right out. Salinger or bust? I'll pass, thanks. >> You want to be able to be immune to damage more than once per game, >> right? Intercept/Bloodform makes perfectly good sense. > >You would be immune only >(with superior bloodform) to nonaggravated damage, that is, >gangrel (and burning wraths too) hurts you plenty. I would never rely on just Bloodform to protect my guys. I would actually probably use things like Carrion Crows/Murder of Crows alongside it, and have a bunch of Chiropteran Marauders in the deck to protect myself against the Gangrel. Or better yet, Horrid Forms, since those come with a built-in prevent. Hm. Maybe a mix of both. Thinking for a second or two, I like the idea of getting 2 Murder of Crows on a minion, and then dropping Carrion Crows/Bloodform before range. 4 points of non-strike damage. Mmmmmm. Watch those Skin of Steels clog up the hand. >And it makes more sense to put any of the other good-for-combat >vicssitude cards, Derek. Or the animalism cards... >If you plain to got an intercept deck, is senseless to don't rely >on combat menace "if i catcth you, i will hurt you". It isn't necessary to ALWAYS hurt someone when you catch them. Sometimes people will be able to hurt you back; those times, you want to be able to save your own ass. I've learned that from painful experience with intercept decks; people will save up their toys and then take an action they're daring you to block. Being able to just S:CE or Bloodform away from it is a -very- rude surprise when your deck has been nothing but combat previously. >> And you're missing something. This ain't Magic: Rares aren't SUPPOSED >> to be the most powerful cards. Telepathic Tracking is an uncommon. >> By your logic, it should be rare. > >No magic, sure.. >A rare should not be the most powerful, true, but not a wallpaper either, >i think. >And c'mon, bloodform IS wallpaper. Send me your three? I'll send you some Open Grates in exchange.. wait.. hold on, I should trade a rare. OK, how about some Twisting the Knife? That's wallpaper too, so a wallpaper for wallpaper trade works out well. 3 TtK for 3 Bloodform? >> Using Meld with the Land means that when your prey just blocks you >> instead of Deflecting, that you can play it at superior and let their >> little butts stay tapped - something Change of Target does not do. > >Ok, so you need to have vic at superior, >that all the decent tzimisce have >(Meshenka, Caleban; Little Tailor, Corinne Marçon....all pretty capacity >vamps) One 4, two 6's, and a slew of 8-caps. The Tzimisce ARE big. You just drop Blood Dolls on them, and figure that since you're the Tzimisce, you can untap and intercept the world and not worry about losing much pool. Your big guys are *definitely* affordable; one of the few clans that can count on getting a pair of 8-caps, a 4, and a 6 nearly every game. Most clans have to aim MUCH smaller. >And tell me if you want to waste all the combat potence of such vamps to >play >a meldwtl at superior, once your PREY blocks you. You bet your ass I do... especially if they are all geared up to kick MY ass. I guess we see a lot more "fight back" decks. Entombment can be a really rude surprise for the Tzimisce with all their agg damage and Horrid Form prevent. >Of course you can do, but i would spare my sup vicissitudes for something >better, in a combat....... If I'm using VIC, *everyone* has it at superior. Only exception: Horatio and Devin Bisley, and I usually throw in two skill cards so that at least Devin can get big. >> AND, it can serve as combat defense when people decide to Bum's Rush >> you. I have a bleed deck that uses a mix of both MWTL and CoT; more >> MWTL. The CoT is just there to draw out Wakes. > >Who wants to bum rush you, now that vicissitude is even more powerul than >before, >with skin traps, chiropteran marauders and the like? The Gangrel are all over that. They'll jump on you, Draw out your Beast, Scorpion Sting/Claws for 2 agg, and Rolling with the Punches the rest. VIC combat is nasty, but you have to include ways to oust people as well, never forget. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:08:15 +0200, "Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote: > >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message news: > >(snipped a lot, but thinking the same as derek) > >> You have to have an Archbishop or Priscus to play the Troops to begin >> with. That means Salinger or Bronwen - a 9 and 10 cap respectively. > >No, you need an Archbishop or Cardinal, which means Salinger, and Salinger >only. If a Lasombra or Tzimisce has not removed the Salinger Threat from >play by poking, entombing, banishing him =) Yeah, I noted that in my other message. One-vampire-or-bust? Um. Not what I'd call reliable. =) At least he kicks ass - if you have to have one guy, he doesn't SUCK at all. >> Due to our metagame in Atlanta, I routinely play with a predator's >> Revelations at superior on me. I find that it's a waste of effort to >> attempt to remove it, as for the most part decks that play it intend >> to defend against the action to remove it; I just figure that I'm >> playing with a handicap. Mike Perlman tends to do the same. And >> we've found that the handicap is pretty small, really... especially if >> you're playing a combat deck. Intimidation on a stick. > >Revelation's popularity has also increased recently in our playgroup. The >best thing when your hand is visible, is maybe playing like you, showing a >smiling face and saying you won't bother removing it. You can also point I find that your smiling face will carry the day more often if your hand also shows a Trap/Carrion Crows/Song of Serenity. =) It's terribly fun to be Revelationsed at superior and have your prey and predator both look at your hand and go "Oops." >it's an incredible advantage for your predator and try to convince other >players to remove the revelation for you -you will then owe them a favor, >like sacrificing a vampire to diablerie, rescuing another vamp... Even if >you can't "bluff" anymore, you can still try your social charm =) it works >most of time if you're skilled enough. Heh. Most people around here will just let you rot. It's an advantage for EVERYONE to have your hand in the open. =) Although you can occasionally trade favors if you can find a good cheap favor. [ quoted text not captured ]

Ian Lee <cur...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20010410160119...@ng-de1.aol.com... > >Alternatively, what do people think of as the best and worst new vampires in > >SW? > > Least: > Idalia > Shannon > Peter Actually Ian, Shannon Price flushes out the !Nossies nicely, even if she doesn't have pot. They were in need of someone new, and although I LOVE OX, Shannon does nicely for her cost, etc. She can still do the Trap/Carrion Crows/Song combo. oAFLORD aka Thomas Kuster VEKN Prince of Caledon

Wes <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message news:9b018...@enews3.newsguy.com... > Sabbat Threat has found new respect from me as well; I mainly use it as a > way to manage the table in my weenie vote deck. When each Methuselah is > losing three pool a turn from Anarch Revolts and my prey is losing an > additional one or two from Sabbat Threat, the other Methuselahs are a little > less eager to allow my prey to bleed for the Edge. Every pool counts. I > originally threw them in because I was lacking KRC cards but it seems to > serve me well each time I play it. Wes, If you are lacking KRC, just ask! I'll throw a couple in on our Tier of Souls trade, if you ever get back to me on that one... oAFLORD aka Thomas Kuster VEKN Prince of Caledon P.S. Make sure to show up for Shotgun Ritual 2001!

>Best Vampires: >1. Lucita >2. Talley, the Hound >3. Sascha Vykos Lucita's okay as is Talley. But I'm really annoyed with Sascha Vykos. Not only do I not like the Tzimisce in general, but I *extra* don't like Vykos in particular!!! I thought he/she was kind of pathetic in the Clan Novels IMHO. Also, in Jyhad, I still think that he/she is horribly broken. Much worse than Anvil ever was. 3 Superiors (albeit one out of clan), 2 Inferiors, a special, AND a Priscus title for only 8? To be honest, a lot of the new vampires in SW are a bit overpowered but for some rason Sascha Vykos really gets on my nerves. Anyways, Vykos will never be a *true* thaumaturge... >Worst Vampires: >1. Nickolai >2 and 3. Other !Tre, because they don't exist! I profoundly object to the slandering of the greatest clan in Jyhad/VTES! They're bound to show up again sooner or later (crossing my fingers). And Nickolai was so cool too! Halcyan 2

"oaflord" <oaf...@sprint.ca> wrote > Wes, If you are lacking KRC, just ask! I'll throw a couple in on our Tier > of Souls trade, if you ever get back to me on that one... I was lacking KRC until I had the opportunity to ransack Noal's bin-o'-commons... thanks Noal! I think somewhere along the line I must have lost a couple of boxes of commons or something. Oh well. I also managed to trade for a Tier of Souls which frankly, I'm not sure works in the deck anyway. I will attempt to get to Toronto for the upcoming tournament. Let everyone there know so they can concede ahead of time :) No news on a Windsor/Detroit tourney but some of us are considering starting one. Cheers, WES

Wes <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message news:9b2hg...@enews4.newsguy.com... > I will attempt to get to Toronto for the upcoming tournament. Let everyone > there know so they can concede ahead of time :) No news on a Windsor/Detroit > tourney but some of us are considering starting one. > Let the Border Wars begin!!! Let me know if you have anything planned, I am in for sure. Some punk (just kidding Aaron) from Detroit has been trash talking, and says he'll be at Shotgun Ritual if I can get him directions. Anyone know how to get to 401 Convenience by car? Or is it best to take the 401 East to Dufferin and park at Yorkdale Mall and take the subway in? oAFLORD aka Thomas Kuster VEKN Prince of Caledon P.S. Maybe we should plan the Border War for July after the Canadian Nationals?

John Flournoy schrieb: > On Tue, 10 Apr 2001, Thomas Pichler wrote: > > > 3. Blood Siege > > Well, unless you're absolutely positive you'll be facing Camarilla political > > not strong enough to stop this vote, is there any use to this card? > > > Well, my thought was that a) it potentially can hose Tradition decks, by > removing their princes, and b) it's one of the best cards for combining > with Smiling Jack. Yes, it's a bit of a gamble that your opponent(s) will > have Princes, but in my circle at least, it's rare that *someone* isn't > playing them. Well, personally, right now, on a five player table locally, I'd probably expect one Tzimisce, at least one other Sabbat deck, and one weenie deck; that really only leaves one deck that might be Camarilla political. It may be different in other areas (for example, not that many Tzimsice), but after Sabbat War and before Final Nights, 2 Sabbat decks seems to be a reasonably safe assumption, and one weenie deck (obf/pre, ani or for/pre) doesn't seem that uncommon, either. Even if I assume there will be one Camarilla political deck, 50% odds are it'll be neither my prey nor my predator when the game starts on a five player table, which makes Blood Siege too dangerous to actually use for any kind of strategy. > Plus, it's a vote that you can win without having any titles > on the table, that *gets* you a title, which can be handy, especially if > you've got a couple of high-end title-less vampires, which there seem to > be no shortage of in the Sabbat clans. > Wrong, it requires Archbishop, Priscus or Cardinal; this means if there actually is a Camarilla political at the table, odds are they'll have at least the same number of votes on the table when you get around to playing Blood Siege. Keep in mind you won't gain you much by playing Blood Siege unless you can target a non-titled vampire [afaik a Vampire can't have two titles simultaneously], which means you should have a second vampire out! What's worse, you can't play action modifiers, but reactions can be played and card effects can be used - a single sup. Dread Gaze will cost you 4 blood or pool, Ventrue Headquarters will cost you 3, etc.! > 1) San Nicolas de los Servitas: 2 blood to only *partly* protect me from > directed actions against one of my vampires, AND it's a rare, AND it > causes me damage if I lose it. And boy, those Lasombra sure do need > protecting.. > Have to agree with you on that card though... Secure Haven is a lot better. [I should've listed my runners-up for three worst cards... that was one of them] Your other two worst cards aren't new, so I didn't even consider them - the question was, irrc, which are the worst new cards. Thomas

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio news:fdr8dt41tld9rj6ks...@4ax.com... > On Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:06:46 GMT, "Tetragrammaton" > <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio > >news:6ls7dto4anjvtajsm...@4ax.com... <snip> > >> You want to be able to be immune to damage more than once per game, > >> right? Intercept/Bloodform makes perfectly good sense. > > > >You would be immune only > >(with superior bloodform) to nonaggravated damage, that is, > >gangrel (and burning wraths too) hurts you plenty. > > I would never rely on just Bloodform to protect my guys. I would > actually probably use things like Carrion Crows/Murder of Crows > alongside it, and have a bunch of Chiropteran Marauders in the deck to > protect myself against the Gangrel. Or better yet, Horrid Forms, > since those come with a built-in prevent. Hm. Maybe a mix of both. Maybe, but gangrel drive you out the beast, so the chiropteran maneuvering would be useless. And, once at close (driven you out the beast) you could not even strike with your bloodformed vamp. Just your carrion and murder crows do some damage, but, we know, with resilience and skin of rocks who cares? Nosferau can do a similar (though less effective, without fortitude-avoiding-damage) trick against bloodforms as well, drawing + superior burning wrath, and then you got still a blood(mal)formed torporous vamp, no matter if you play with horrid forms (that costs you a blood, anyway). > Thinking for a second or two, I like the idea of getting 2 Murder of > Crows on a minion, and then dropping Carrion Crows/Bloodform before > range. 4 points of non-strike damage. Mmmmmm. Watch those Skin of > Steels clog up the hand. As i said, i'd rather rely (with Fortitude) on damage prevention, not strike prevention. you plain to got an intercept deck, is senseless to don't rely > >on combat menace "if i catcth you, i will hurt you". > It isn't necessary to ALWAYS hurt someone when you catch them. > Sometimes people will be able to hurt you back; those times, you want > to be able to save your own ass. I've learned that from painful > experience with intercept decks; people will save up their toys and > then take an action they're daring you to block. Being able to just > S:CE or Bloodform away from it is a -very- rude surprise when your > deck has been nothing but combat previously. > Point taken, but a purchase pact/elysium the arboretum do the trick, and they're permanents. > >> And you're missing something. This ain't Magic: Rares aren't SUPPOSED > >> to be the most powerful cards. Telepathic Tracking is an uncommon. > >> By your logic, it should be rare. > > > >No magic, sure.. > >A rare should not be the most powerful, true, but not a wallpaper either, > >i think. > >And c'mon, bloodform IS wallpaper. > > Send me your three? I'll send you some Open Grates in exchange.. > wait.. hold on, I should trade a rare. OK, how about some Twisting > the Knife? That's wallpaper too, so a wallpaper for wallpaper trade > works out well. 3 TtK for 3 Bloodform? Unfortunately, i just trade away my first one, and i'm not going to trade my second with another wallpaper....in the case of TTK it would be even an old wallpaper reprinted, truly a mess........at least bloodform has still the feeling of the "brand new" (wallpaper) around it..... the second got his place in my collection..... maybe i'll try to trade my third left bloodform with a Shock Troops........ > > >> Using Meld with the Land means that when your prey just blocks you > >> instead of Deflecting, that you can play it at superior and let their > >> little butts stay tapped - something Change of Target does not do. > > > >Ok, so you need to have vic at superior, > >that all the decent tzimisce have > >(Meshenka, Caleban; Little Tailor, Corinne Marçon....all pretty capacity > >vamps) > > One 4, two 6's, and a slew of 8-caps. The Tzimisce ARE big. You just > drop Blood Dolls on them, and figure that since you're the Tzimisce, > you can untap and intercept the world and not worry about losing much > pool. Your big guys are *definitely* affordable; one of the few clans > that can count on getting a pair of 8-caps, a 4, and a 6 nearly every > game. Most clans have to aim MUCH smaller. > > >And tell me if you want to waste all the combat potence of such vamps to > >play > >a meldwtl at superior, once your PREY blocks you. > > You bet your ass I do... especially if they are all geared up to kick > MY ass. I guess we see a lot more "fight back" decks. Entombment can > be a really rude surprise for the Tzimisce with all their agg damage > and Horrid Form prevent. A primal istinct (if you're acting and you strike for damage) + a(nyway) dodge and you have an entombing-trying lasombra to waste two of his/her precious blood......... Let's the carrion and murder crows above do their work...... > >Of course you can do, but i would spare my sup vicissitudes for something > >better, in a combat....... > > If I'm using VIC, *everyone* has it at superior. Only exception: > Horatio and Devin Bisley, and I usually throw in two skill cards so > that at least Devin can get big. > > >> AND, it can serve as combat defense when people decide to Bum's Rush > >> you. I have a bleed deck that uses a mix of both MWTL and CoT; more > >> MWTL. The CoT is just there to draw out Wakes. > > > >Who wants to bum rush you, now that vicissitude is even more powerul than > >before, > >with skin traps, chiropteran marauders and the like? > > The Gangrel are all over that. They'll jump on you, Draw out your > Beast, Scorpion Sting/Claws for 2 agg, and Rolling with the Punches > the rest. VIC combat is nasty, but you have to include ways to oust > people as well, never forget. True. And the combo above beats "your" bloodform as well...... Best Emiliano, vekn Prince of Rome ds everywhere!" -- N. Stewart

Halcyan 2 wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] I really want to see Nickolai in Jyhad, even if he's the only new !Tre ever. If they can have Moncada, I can see no (story) reason for not having Nickolai. I thought Vykos was good in the Clan Novels, but 'her' finest hour as far as I'm concerned is in the CN short story book. In Jyhad, 'she' is overpowered, but not broken. At least, I've not broken her - and that's not for want of trying. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:56:10 GMT, "Tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote: >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio >news:fdr8dt41tld9rj6ks...@4ax.com... >> I would never rely on just Bloodform to protect my guys. I would >> actually probably use things like Carrion Crows/Murder of Crows >> alongside it, and have a bunch of Chiropteran Marauders in the deck to >> protect myself against the Gangrel. Or better yet, Horrid Forms, >> since those come with a built-in prevent. Hm. Maybe a mix of both. > >Maybe, but gangrel drive you out the beast, >so the chiropteran maneuvering would be useless. hence why I said "horrid form" instead. prevent for 1 = better than maneuver, against Gangrel. prevent for 2 = best, but that takes 2 Horrid Forms; not so good. >And, once at close (driven you out the beast) >you could not even strike with your bloodformed vamp. So? Damage wouldn't be coming from strikes. >Just your carrion and murder crows do some damage, >but, we know, with resilience and skin of rocks who cares? Considering most decks pack Skin of Steel and Rolling with the Punches as their premier damage prevention, I certainly care. I bet 95% of the decks I play against will take damage from Carrion/Murder Crows. At least. >Nosferau can do a similar (though less effective, without >fortitude-avoiding-damage) >trick against bloodforms as well, >drawing + superior burning wrath, and then you got still a blood(mal)formed >torporous vamp, no matter if you play with horrid forms >(that costs you a blood, anyway). Of course, DotB + Burning Wrath gets the Nosferatu punched for lots and costs them a TON of blood, so I personally am not worried about seeing it. Sure, it's technically possible, but don't ever color me afraid. There's a big difference between what you COULD MAYBE see and what you are LIKELY to see. Gangrel agg poke for 1 or 2 is common. Burning Wrath is quite rare. >> Thinking for a second or two, I like the idea of getting 2 Murder of >> Crows on a minion, and then dropping Carrion Crows/Bloodform before >> range. 4 points of non-strike damage. Mmmmmm. Watch those Skin of >> Steels clog up the hand. > >As i said, i'd rather rely (with Fortitude) >on damage prevention, not strike prevention. And when Potence comes and plays Torn Signpost/Blur, how many damage prevention cards are you going to be chasing out of your hand to stop them? Skin of Steel superior = 1 slot. 3 Resiliences = 3 slots. Bet you see more Potence than you do Carrion Crows/Murder of Crows decks. Strike prevention is more common because strike prevention is simply more efficient and more effective. That's why getting AROUND strike prevention is worth a little extra time spent. >> It isn't necessary to ALWAYS hurt someone when you catch them. >> Sometimes people will be able to hurt you back; those times, you want >> to be able to save your own ass. I've learned that from painful >> experience with intercept decks; people will save up their toys and >> then take an action they're daring you to block. Being able to just >> S:CE or Bloodform away from it is a -very- rude surprise when your >> deck has been nothing but combat previously. > >Point taken, but a purchase pact/elysium the arboretum do the trick, >and they're permanents. Elysium is worthless for the Tzimisce. Purchase Pact is OK, but it only works against other Sabbat; kind of silly. And it only works once and they can see it coming, so they just save up for the 2nd time. >> Send me your three? I'll send you some Open Grates in exchange.. >> wait.. hold on, I should trade a rare. OK, how about some Twisting >> the Knife? That's wallpaper too, so a wallpaper for wallpaper trade >> works out well. 3 TtK for 3 Bloodform? > >Unfortunately, i just trade away my first one, >and i'm not going to trade my second >with another wallpaper....in the case of TTK it would be even an old >wallpaper reprinted, truly a mess........at least bloodform has still the >feeling of the "brand new" (wallpaper) around it..... >the second got his place in my collection..... >maybe i'll try to trade my third left bloodform with a Shock Troops........ Ahh... maybe it's not wallpaper after all, eh? =) 8 in a deck... See, this is the thing. There's a way to get around EVERYTHING someone does. But the question is whether or not you're likely to see it. Bloodform works excellently against those pesky Potence IG decks that have traditionally caused the Tzimisce a lot of trouble; a small vamp comes over, jacks his hand damage up to 7, and knocks your primary interceptor clean out of the water. Sure, he goes to torpor as well from agg hand damage, but the Potence deck has a lot of minions; it just rescues, and your interceptor's in torpor. It doesn't work as well against Gangrel, but that's what Horrid Form is for - a little casual prevent goes a long way. >> You bet your ass I do... especially if they are all geared up to kick >> MY ass. I guess we see a lot more "fight back" decks. Entombment can >> be a really rude surprise for the Tzimisce with all their agg damage >> and Horrid Form prevent. > >A primal istinct (if you're acting and you strike for damage) + a(nyway) >dodge >and you have an entombing-trying lasombra to waste two of his/her precious >blood......... >Let's the carrion and murder crows above do their work...... except every Lasombra I know uses Arms of the Abyss/Entombment so they don't have to worry about people dodging, etc. on the first strike, and don't have to worry about getting their eye poked out on the first strike either. Sure, the Carrion Crows/etc. will still get them for some, but I don't WANT to let people be able to trade minion-for-minion with my guys. Mine are bigger and worth more. >> >Who wants to bum rush you, now that vicissitude is even more powerul than >> >before, >> >with skin traps, chiropteran marauders and the like? >> >> The Gangrel are all over that. They'll jump on you, Draw out your >> Beast, Scorpion Sting/Claws for 2 agg, and Rolling with the Punches >> the rest. VIC combat is nasty, but you have to include ways to oust >> people as well, never forget. > >True. >And the combo above beats "your" >bloodform as well...... *shrug* So it does. Good thing I don't have JUST Bloodform in the deck, so I can react to whatever's near me. I'm just pointing out that oh, yes, people WILL rush the Tzimisce. -- Derek [generic .signature file]

Halcyan 2 wrote: > Also, in Jyhad, I still think that [Sascha] is horribly broken. Much worse than > Anvil ever was. 3 Superiors (albeit one out of clan), 2 Inferiors, a special, > AND a Priscus title for only 8? To be honest, a lot of the new vampires in SW > are a bit overpowered but for some rason Sascha Vykos really gets on my nerves. 3 superiors = 6 pts. 2 inferiors = 2 pts. Priscus = 1 pt. Special = 0 pts. (it's worth something, but not enough to count) Total = 9 pts. Which is right on target for an 8 capacity vampire by the current system (1-4 caps get cap-1 pt, 5-6 caps get cap pts, 7-8 caps get cap+1 pts, ...). Even by Jyhad standards, Anvil is 1.5 points ahead of the curve, while Sascha (by Jyhad standards) is only 1 point ahead of the curve. By current standards, Anvil is still 1.5 points ahead while Sascha is on the curve. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Something about the rating system for vampires has always bothered me. A very strong vampire like Anvil has 2 superiors and 3 inferiors and a primogen title. Everyone agrees he's better than average and I've used him myself multiple times. However, when have I _ever_ built a deck with five disciplines in it? I think I had one, once that had 4 and two of those were barely used. To me, it is nothing at all about how many disciplines a vampire has but the combination vs size that makes him useful. In a straight potence/fortitude deck Nakova would make it into my crypt even though it is clear she is way 'underpowered' for a 6 cap vampire. (1 Sup/1 inferior, primogen kinda neat skill that at most gets used once). On rare occassions a vampire might inspire an entire deck because of their 'awesome set of skills' but usually it is the deck that finds the vampires, and therefore it isn't so much about what a vampire has, but what a vampire has that people can use. That is why, to me, an in-clan 3 capper with 2 skills you are using will always be better than a Sascha who is paying for 2 or even 3 disciplines you are probably not even using. Daniel-Tig [ quoted text not captured ]

"TigToad" <tig...@qwest.net> wrote > However, when have I _ever_ built a deck with five disciplines in it? I > think I had one, once that had 4 and two of those were barely used. To > me, it is nothing at all about how many disciplines a vampire has but > the combination vs size that makes him useful. In a straight > potence/fortitude deck Nakova would make it into my crypt even though it > is clear she is way 'underpowered' for a 6 cap vampire. (1 Sup/1 > inferior, primogen kinda neat skill that at most gets used once). This is one of the reasons I rarely use guys above 6 capacity. They better have a special I *really* want to use, otherwise their 'points' don't mean a heck of a lot. As I have mentioned before, I judge a vampire's utility based on the type of deck I am building, not just on the total number of disciplines. So in a straight rush combat deck using Potence and Celerity, Anvil will not be using either Dominate or Thaumaturgy and therefore he is not worth *as* much. Not bad, but I think Sela is more valuable, since the +1 Bleed is always useful. Someone like Lazvernius *seems* really great based on his disciplines but how are you ever going to get all those disciplines functioning in a deck without some loss of focus? Minion Tap the big guys to make them cheaper, certainly, but it still seems too much effort to get them out in the first place. For me, I'd almost always have two guys worth five pool each or three guys worth a total of ten than one big guy. That means more actions, more versatility and more ability to defend yourself--generally speaking. Cheers, WES

"Wes" <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message news:9banj...@enews3.newsguy.com... > > "TigToad" <tig...@qwest.net> wrote > > > However, when have I _ever_ built a deck with five disciplines in it? I > > think I had one, once that had 4 and two of those were barely used. Depends totally on the type of deck you're playing. > This is one of the reasons I rarely use guys above 6 capacity. They better > have a special I *really* want to use, otherwise their 'points' don't mean a > heck of a lot. Try to make a ToGP deck with 6caps. > As I have mentioned before, I judge a vampire's utility based on the type of > deck I am building, not just on the total number of disciplines. So in a > straight rush combat deck using Potence and Celerity, Anvil will not be > using either Dominate or Thaumaturgy and therefore he is not worth *as* > much. Not bad, but I think Sela is more valuable, since the +1 Bleed is > always useful. In the stereotypical clan or discipline based decks you won't pay more for a vamp who doesn't contribute something more, obviously. BUT vamps like eg Anvil (and the 2 Europrinces) helped make a new decktype. This way there's always the potential for some new deck to be made. In the case of Sasha Vykos, remember the X weather control - bloodform combo. She/ he/ it is the only one who can play this combo. Jeroen

"jeroen rombouts" <jeroen....@pandora.be> > > > However, when have I _ever_ built a deck with five disciplines in it? I > > > think I had one, once that had 4 and two of those were barely used. > > Depends totally on the type of deck you're playing. Obviously. the more disciplines you put in lessens the odds your combo will show up. > > This is one of the reasons I rarely use guys above 6 capacity. They better > > have a special I *really* want to use, otherwise their 'points' don't mean > a > > heck of a lot. > > Try to make a ToGP deck with 6caps. No, you're not fair on this point. Of course it's difficult to make such a deck without "natural born justicars" like Anneke or Sheldon. It's like pretending making a weenie with primogens only... But set this type of deck aside, and try yourself to play decks with 6 caps vamp max, you'll see it's a gain to have numerous vampire on the table. Playing low cap vamps is a benefit, but it is balanced by cards like "seduction" (inferior), "minde rape" and "obedience" that affects younger vamps. Small vamps can also soak less damage and hunt more often. I understand Wes's point of view. > > As I have mentioned before, I judge a vampire's utility based on the type of > > deck I am building, not just on the total number of disciplines. So in a > > straight rush combat deck using Potence and Celerity, Anvil will not be > > using either Dominate or Thaumaturgy and therefore he is not worth *as* > > much. Not bad, but I think Sela is more valuable, since the +1 Bleed is > > always useful. > > In the stereotypical clan or discipline based decks you won't pay more for a > vamp who doesn't contribute something more, obviously. > BUT vamps like eg Anvil (and the 2 Europrinces) helped make a new decktype. > This way there's always the potential for some new deck to be made. In the > case of Sasha Vykos, remember the X weather control - bloodform combo. She/ > he/ it is the only one who can play this combo. Set this stupid, unplayable combo aside (who wants to play 7+ cards to torporize a vampire ? how much weather control will you throw in your deck, 70 maybe ??) I agree with Jeroen on this : The vampire with multiple disciplines like Anvil can contribute to new deck ideas. That's why they are seen in a lot of different decks -i mean they are seen more often than their fellow "non broken" vampire. Thus they break the disciplines limitations of their clans and make brand new deck themes possible. we need them, and they are a good thing for the game. Please mr white wolf, print more broken vampires. And more high cap with nasty specials. > Jeroen > just my 2 pool... reyda

<...> > > Try to make a ToGP deck with 6caps. > > No, you're not fair on this point. Of course it's difficult to make such a > deck without "natural born justicars" like Anneke or Sheldon. It's like > pretending making a weenie with primogens only... But set this type of deck > aside, and try yourself to play decks with 6 caps vamp max, you'll see it's > a gain to have numerous vampire on the table. Playing low cap vamps is a > benefit, but it is balanced by cards like "seduction" (inferior), "minde > rape" and "obedience" that affects younger vamps. Small vamps can also soak > less damage and hunt more often. I understand Wes's point of view. > I only added this remark as an (exagerated, I'll grant you that) example of the (above stated) "depends completely on the type of deck." I have played with allmost every type of deck (not Legbiter's Betrayer deck), so I know what the pros and contras of the different types of vamp are. Jeroen using too much ( )

In message <9bc7ia$miq$1...@news2.isdnet.net>, Reyda <re...@noos.fr> writes >But set this type of deck >aside, and try yourself to play decks with 6 caps vamp max, you'll see it's >a gain to have numerous vampire on the table. The Fifth/Minion Tap decks benefit from large vampires. Also, if someone is artificially restricting their choice in such a manner (as they are more than entitled to do, of course), Obedience and Voice of Madness become much more useful. And a swarm Corruption deck (they actually do exist) can have 'fun'. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F What's the meaning when you speak with so much feeling? B457CA213D7E6 Is it over when you're sober? Is it junk? 68C3695D623D5D

"jeroen rombouts" <jeroen....@pandora.be> wrote > "Wes" <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net> wrote > > This is one of the reasons I rarely use guys above 6 capacity. They better > > have a special I *really* want to use, otherwise their 'points' don't mean > a > > heck of a lot. > > Try to make a ToGP deck with 6caps. If I was making a ToGP deck, I would be using Justicars and therefore the very state of 'being Justicars' would make 1-6 caps fairly useless... so I don't understand your point. Obviously decks that require Justicars... *require* Justicars. > In the stereotypical clan or discipline based decks you won't pay more for a > vamp who doesn't contribute something more, obviously. > BUT vamps like eg Anvil (and the 2 Europrinces) helped make a new decktype. > This way there's always the potential for some new deck to be made. In the > case of Sasha Vykos, remember the X weather control - bloodform combo. She/ > he/ it is the only one who can play this combo. Yes, of course... but if you are basing a deck concept around a specific combination of disciplines or a specific vampire's special abilities, that would mean that: a) those disciplines are valued higher than ones that are not used/not focused on b) that vampire is *required* for that deck So, again I'm not sure I get your point. Or maybe we are saying the same shit from different angles? No idea. Cheers, WES

On Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:43:59 GMT "Tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote: >Hi all, >i don't know if this has been already done here, >anyway i would like to have a poll for your best and worst three new cards >in SW, along with a short opinion for each of them. <snip> i do like these polls. They always get me thinking about how to work the cards that everyone else thinks are wallpaper. But actually i don't think the new set has bedded in well enough for us to answer your question properly - personally i don't have enough SW cards yet to really test out some of the ideas sparked by the set. That said, i'm immensely fond of Rave [great for takeover decks and werewolf decks] Bloodform [terrific adjunct to a VIS combat deck, as others have pointed out] Courier [well really! FANTASTIC value]. and i think the various powerbases are jolly good, too, and that Greta Kircher is one of the best cards in the game. Worst cards? i'm not keen on Lobotomy which is VERY corner-case IMO. i don't share the general distaste for Twisting the Knife though i accept that it's pretty useless in constructed-deck play: i find this card to be VERY useful in sealed-deck, however, where combat damage pretty much equates to pool reduction. In contrast to some other posters i find Peter Blaine to be one of the best vampires in the game - that special is AMAZING. Antonio Delgado i think is a bit pricey given his disadvantage, but i have seen him used effectively. Reality Mirror as currently ruled-upon is really only useful for sealed-deck play where it is great, but i still think the Shadow Court SAtyr/RM combo should be legal - it all comes down to what is meant by PLAYING a card, however, so i accept that it is marginal. i've tried to use storage annex but i can't get it to work right. Currently it is one of my least favourites, but i hope that will change.

legbiter wrote: > Reality > Mirror as currently ruled-upon is really only useful for sealed-deck > play where it is great, but i still think the Shadow Court SAtyr/RM > combo should be legal - it all comes down to what is meant by PLAYING > a card, however, so i accept that it is marginal. The ruling on Reality Mirror also notes that SCS cannot play the card at all, since it requires a clan and SCS makes no provision for that. [ quoted text not captured ]

legbiter skrev i meddelandet <3add778e$1...@news.nntpserver.com>... <snip> >In contrast to some other >posters i find Peter Blaine to be one of the best vampires in the >game - that special is AMAZING. Is +1 bleed vs Ventrue AMAZING??? Since when? He's an ok vampire though... >Antonio Delgado i think is a bit pricey >given his disadvantage, but i have seen him used effectively. He has a disadvantage? What?

In message <9bigq8$l1j$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk>, Henke <d98...@stud.hh.se> writes >legbiter skrev i meddelandet <3add778e$1...@news.nntpserver.com>... ><snip> >>In contrast to some other >>posters i find Peter Blaine to be one of the best vampires in the >>game - that special is AMAZING. > >Is +1 bleed vs Ventrue AMAZING??? Since when? vs Ventrue is pretty good. They're a very strong clan and quite popular. If they're on the table, every benefit is useful. Also, bear in mind the fact that it's on a 4 capacity vampire. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:48:40 +0200 "Henke" <d98...@stud.hh.se> wrote: > >legbiter skrev i meddelandet <3add778e$1...@news.nntpserver.com>... ><snip> >>In contrast to some other >>posters i find Peter Blaine to be one of the best vampires in the >>game - that special is AMAZING. > >Is +1 bleed vs Ventrue AMAZING??? Since when? He's an ok vampire though... As the other james points out, the Ventrue are popular. And his +1 bleed can't be bounced except to another Ventrue-controlling Methuselah. > >>Antonio Delgado i think is a bit pricey >>given his disadvantage, but i have seen him used effectively. >He has a disadvantage? What? Yes, he has the disadvantage of being irrevocably confused with Ambrosio Luis Moncado. They both begin with A and end with O. i find this most unfair ;-). Sorry! i meant that Moncado has a disadvantage, and mis-typed. > >

>> >>>Antonio Delgado i think is a bit pricey >>>given his disadvantage, but i have seen him used effectively. >>He has a disadvantage? What? > >Yes, he has the disadvantage of being irrevocably confused with >Ambrosio Luis Moncado. They both begin with A and end with O. i find this most unfair ;-). > >Sorry! i meant that Moncado has a disadvantage, and mis-typed. >> Yeah, It's about time this problem is erratad!!! "When Antonio and Ambrosio is active at the the same time, Antonie changes his name to Steve. [HENKE 20010418] I can't believe the design team actually missed this... ;o) /Henke

"legbiter" <legb...@my-deja.com> ha scritto nel messaggio news:3adea...@news.nntpserver.com... [ quoted text not captured ] I'm not spanish, however: Monçada......not "Moncado"....... Just my little spanish-cousin-tongue........ Best Emiliano, vekn Prince of Rome > Sorry! i meant that Moncado has a disadvantage, and mis-typed. > > > > >

-- "James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:cSrXJJMS...@obeah.demon.co.uk... > In message <9bigq8$l1j$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk>, Henke > <d98...@stud.hh.se> writes > >legbiter skrev i meddelandet <3add778e$1...@news.nntpserver.com>... > ><snip> > >>In contrast to some other > >>posters i find Peter Blaine to be one of the best vampires in the > >>game - that special is AMAZING. > > > >Is +1 bleed vs Ventrue AMAZING??? Since when? > > vs Ventrue is pretty good. They're a very strong clan and quite > popular. If they're on the table, every benefit is useful. > > Also, bear in mind the fact that it's on a 4 capacity vampire. > It's still far from amazing IMO. There's like 20+ clans so the chance a Ventrue is your prey is quite slim even if they're popular. Honestly I much more prefer Ingrid Russo than Peter Blaine because of her ability to Redirect any bleed at no cost. Generally a vamp with one sup and one inf discipline is better than one with three inferiors. Also Ranjan Rishi is low cap as well and *damn* much better, and so is Blythe. These two you could call amazing, but Peter? I'd say no :o)

> Also Ranjan Rishi is low cap as well and *damn* much better, and so is > Blythe. These two you could call amazing, but Peter? I'd say no :o) In making this statement, you're aware of Blythe's errata, yes? (inf. auspex) Just checking. :)

In message <9cnogt$79e$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk>, Roger Carhult <rogc...@student.luth.se> writes [Peter Blaine's +1 bleed] >> vs Ventrue is pretty good. They're a very strong clan and quite >> popular. If they're on the table, every benefit is useful. >> >> Also, bear in mind the fact that it's on a 4 capacity vampire. >> > >It's still far from amazing IMO. Oh, certainly. I wouldn't go as far as Legbiter did. But it's pretty good. >There's like 20+ clans so the chance a >Ventrue is your prey is quite slim even if they're popular. Not necessarily. Ventrue are popular as a single clan deck, and a number of vampires are quite useful in other decks. Rufina Soledad is good for the Fortitude/Trap decks, and Gideon Fontaine is very good for PRE based bleed or vote. It could be a metagame thing, anyway. You wouldn't go out of your way to include him if *no-one* was playing Ventrue, but it's a pretty nice edge to have. >Honestly I much >more prefer Ingrid Russo than Peter Blaine because of her ability to >Redirect any bleed at no cost. Generally a vamp with one sup and one inf >discipline is better than one with three inferiors. Difficult to say. I think a number of clans (mostly the independents) would benefit from a low superior clan discipline and another discipline. But the 4 cap clan clan clan aren't bad vampires. That's quite dependent on play style. If you like 2 discipline decks - which are very competitive and playable - then obviously, CLAN clan is going to do you a lot better service. Something like 4 cap PRE obf would be great for the Setites for stealth-vote and stealth-bleed. I want one of them! But a "Happy Families" style deck would work better with clan clan clan. Roman Alexander - with ani, for and pro - is a far more versatile vampire for such decks. It's much harder to draw a "useless" card that way. >Also Ranjan Rishi is low cap as well and *damn* much better, and so is >Blythe. These two you could call amazing, but Peter? I'd say no :o) Ranjan Rishi rocks. [ quoted text not captured ]

-- "Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message news:yNTH6.5140$9j1.2...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net... [ quoted text not captured ] Yes of course :) But she still truly rocks since her flaw is totally negligible.