Thinking Aloud about Weenie ANI/FOR rush decks

i had great fun with my American-style weenie pot deck on Saturday and it set me thinking about other weenie rush decks. ANI/FOR ought to be even better, methinks, specially if you have a few dog-packs. The basic idea would be to start the deck off as classic weenie for/trap, but you would aim to make as many minions as possible ANI and FOR, and you would be going for DoTB, Dawn op, Freak Drives and each of your teeny-weenies taking out three vamps every turn [Bum's Rush, Ambush and Haven uncovered]. Now THAT should be fast enough to make combat competitive! i've never seen this kind of deck in action, however, nor do i recall it being talked about, at least not in exactly these terms. Does that mean it's been tried and it sucks, or is there some other reason why this can't work? Crypt would be 12-ish cheap vamps with at least ani or for, ranging from March and Uriah up to 5-6 cap Gangrels and Ravnos. Library would be something like the following: 19 MASTERS 4 x ani 4 x for 3 x Effective Management 4 x Haven Uncovered 2 x Info Highway 2 x Tribute 16 ACTIONS 6 x Bum's Rush 6 x Ambush 4 x Tier of Souls [?] 38 COMBAT 8 x Trap 12 x DoTB 3 x Terror Frenzy [?] 2 x Aid from Bats 7 x Unflinching Persistence 6 x Skin of Steel 2 RETAINERS 2 x Dog Pack 15 MODIFIERS 8 x dawn Op 7 x Freak Drive Maybe you don't really need the retainers, and maybe there should be some blood gain in there too - Tastes, perhaps. Carrion Crows would obviously be nice in this. But really i am interested in people's prior experience of this kind of thing, if any. If the deck idea is novel, of course we will only find out whether it is any good or not by playing it! Hmmm, actually it's NOT that novel, is it? it's kind of a variation of the weather control/Skin of Night deck. Anyway, i'd still like to know if anyone has played around with this concept before! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:17:24 GMT, legb...@my-deja.com wrote: >i had great fun with my American-style weenie pot deck on Saturday and it >set me thinking about other weenie rush decks. ANI/FOR ought to be even >better, methinks, specially if you have a few dog-packs. The basic idea >would be to start the deck off as classic weenie for/trap, but you would >aim to make as many minions as possible ANI and FOR, and you would be >going for DoTB, Dawn op, Freak Drives and each of your teeny-weenies >taking out three vamps every turn [Bum's Rush, Ambush and Haven >uncovered]. Now THAT should be fast enough to make combat competitive! >i've never seen this kind of deck in action, however, nor do i recall it >being talked about, at least not in exactly these terms. Does that mean >it's been tried and it sucks, or is there some other reason why this >can't work? well, besides that Dawn Op only works when someone blocks...? =) and then you're kind of sitting there with a DotB and a weenie, going "sureyoudontwannablock?" to someone's Great Big Potence deck. Even just a for weenie deck with plenty of pulled fangs, traps, undead persistences, and skins-of-rock can be lots of fun. :) Not very pleasant.. but lots of fun. And you run out of Rush actions quickly... not in your hand, but in your DECK. -- Derek (replying by email? remove the nospam from my domain :)

>i had great fun with my American-style weenie pot deck on Saturday and it >set me thinking about other weenie rush decks. American-style weenie pot deck? What is that? Conor Prince of Raleigh

Celt wrote: >>American-style weenie pot deck? What is that?>> I'm pretty much guessing that Legbiter is referring to they type of Potence Rush deck that is advocated by the likes of Josh Duffin, James Hamblin, and myself (among others...)--small vampires with pot/POT using very focused Potence Immortal Grapple combat. Usually contains about 12 Bum's Rush/4 Haven Uncovered, and 12 Immortal Grapple as major deck components and revolves around either the Brujah (using Cel for manuvers and some additional strikes) or the Nosferatu (using Obf for Behind You manuvers). The Brujah have better manuvers and other Cel cards to use, but the Nosferatu have a better small vampire selection (more smallish vamps with POT--Agatha, Olivia, Nigel, not to mention the not small but incredibly useful Beast). If you dig around the web, I'm sure there are many variations of them archived places--my Nosferatu version is in the Nosferatu Newsletters; Skywise made a Brujah version in the Brujah newsletters; James's is in the !Bru newsletters somewhere; Josh and Xian both have posted good ones around here at some point. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "He sees the things he knows are his He sees the bright and hollow sky" -Iggy Pop

In article <7opc99$bup$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <legb...@my-deja.com> wrote: >i had great fun with my American-style weenie pot deck on Saturday and it >set me thinking about other weenie rush decks. ANI/FOR ought to be even >better, methinks, specially if you have a few dog-packs. The basic idea >would be to start the deck off as classic weenie for/trap, but you would >aim to make as many minions as possible ANI and FOR, and you would be >going for DoTB, Dawn op, Freak Drives and each of your teeny-weenies >taking out three vamps every turn [Bum's Rush, Ambush and Haven >uncovered]. Now THAT should be fast enough to make combat competitive! >i've never seen this kind of deck in action, however, nor do i recall it >being talked about, at least not in exactly these terms. Does that mean >it's been tried and it sucks, or is there some other reason why this >can't work? [Deck outline and post analysis snipped] It's a neat idea, but has a couple of flaws: It relies on the dog packs to deal with S:CE, which is slow, easily blockable, and for the same combined price you could get a much better vampire. Too many working parts, and thus a lack of reliability. Trap, Fortitude, Drawing out the Beast, Dawn Op, Dog Pack, Freak Drive, and probably Taste of Vitae. I would guess it might work a few times, but where a weenie potence deck has a tendency to hand jam about as fast as you can "un-jam", this will leave you hand tied after a few combats, which leads to the next point. You aren't going to get so many combats in reality. Your hand will jam first, and you don't have enough rush cards to make use of this even if you didn't jam. So in the end you gain little from being able to make multiple rushes, and potentially lose greatly in the speed with which you get started if you don't get your dog packs out. Hell, as you need both animalism and fortitude (preferably superior of both), your effective vampires will also be larger than weenie potence's. Perhaps a more stripped down version based mostly on animalism might work though? Mostly Ambush/Bum's Rush w/ Aid From Bats and Carrion Crows, with a small amount of Terror Frenzy, Dog Pack, and Dawn Op, and Freak Drive. Perhaps some extra maneuvers and a smidgen of Fortitude. I suspect you might get better results out of a purely Animalism Deck as it'd be faster and more reliable, although this does have more flexibility and punch. Hmmmm. What about Rush, then Trap plus Song of Serenity? That takes advantage of trap much better than fortitude does, and is quite humiliating to boot! Add in some Dog Packs, and Aid from Bats. Perhaps a bit of fortitude, Dawn Op, and Freak Drive, but probably not. I think I'd actually rather have some untap and a bit of permanent intercept, as you can't really afford the Freak Drive, Trap + Hand Damage is better than Dawn Op, and then you don't need Fortitude. Carrion Crows might be a good hedge, but Aid From Bats has a press to make sure the Trap works, and so is probably better if somewhat monotonous. This might even be a halfway functional Rush/Intercept Hybrid, which would help offset its reliance on Dog Packs. The only real problem I see is that you'd lose to other combat decks... Not sure what to do about that. -- /\ Jasper Phillips /VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--. * http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`

I am very familiar with small vamp large pot rush decks. I just did not know the difference between a America-style vs.. any other style. I guess they are all American? I have even had the pleasure of playing Josh Duffin. Conor Prince of Raleigh Peter D Bakija wrote in message <19990811084354...@ng-cc1.aol.com>... [ quoted text not captured ]

Just go for a weenie animalism deck instead. Take a bunch of 1-3 cap vamps with ani, maybe a couple of 5 cap with ANI. Lots of animalism skill masters (really need ANI). Bum's Rush en masse. Then tons of DotB and Aid from Bats, really the only combat cards you need. Spice a little with Raven spy, Cats Guidence, Guard Dogs, WwEF. Maybe some Computer Hacking and "Bleed Devices". And of course Master cards like Info Highway, Tribute t t M, Blood Doll, Dreams o t Sphinx, Barrens, Effective Management, ... But, of course, this kind of deck tends to be a little booooring. Never plays these kind of decks myself, so I fully understand if you're trying to do something little more unusual. Good Luck! // Robert Doktorow [ quoted text not captured ]

[Big ol' snip] > Perhaps a more stripped down version based mostly on animalism > might work though? Mostly Ambush/Bum's Rush w/ Aid From Bats > and Carrion Crows, with a small amount of Terror Frenzy, Dog Pack, > and Dawn Op, and Freak Drive. Perhaps some extra maneuvers and a > smidgen of Fortitude. I suspect you might get better results out > of a purely Animalism Deck as it'd be faster and more reliable, > although this does have more flexibility and punch. > > Hmmmm. What about Rush, then Trap plus Song of Serenity? That takes > advantage of trap much better than fortitude does, and is quite > humiliating to boot! Add in some Dog Packs, and Aid from Bats. > Perhaps a bit of fortitude, Dawn Op, and Freak Drive, but probably > not. I think I'd actually rather have some untap and a bit of > permanent intercept, as you can't really afford the Freak Drive, > Trap + Hand Damage is better than Dawn Op, and then you don't > need Fortitude. Carrion Crows might be a good hedge, but Aid From Bats > has a press to make sure the Trap works, and so is probably better > if somewhat monotonous. > > This might even be a halfway functional Rush/Intercept Hybrid, > which would help offset its reliance on Dog Packs. The only > real problem I see is that you'd lose to other combat decks... > Not sure what to do about that. A good idea, and I think with some of the Animalism-style maneuvers and maneuver prevents, you could even have a go with the other combat decks. The Aid From Bats alone might not keep you away from those Immortal Grapple decks, but if you have the resources for it, a Terror Frenzy + Aid From Bats (and a possible Carrion Crows) combination might be just the thing. The Terror Frenzy would last the whole of combat, so would be nice with the Traps, and would also prevent weapons use by the opposing minion. It still lets them press to end combat, so what do you do there? Heheh Drawing Out The Beast! Fun stuff. Hold them exactly where you want them for exactly as long as you want. They can't maneuver, no matter the range, and they can't press, either to continue or to end. They can't use weapons and they take unpreventable damage after each round. 2 cards and one blood. Probably excessive, yes. But damn it sounds like fun. Imagine, Animalism clans playing mind games like the Dominate clans. Of course (say the Dominate clans) one Thoughts Betrayed throws a wrench the size of Africa into the works. Could be a fun deck. Now to find about 10 more Terror Frenzy cards...

> A good idea, and I think with some of the Animalism-style maneuvers and > maneuver prevents, you could even have a go with the other combat decks. The > Aid From Bats alone might not keep you away from those Immortal Grapple decks, > but if you have the resources for it, a Terror Frenzy + Aid From Bats (and a > possible Carrion Crows) combination might be just the thing. > > The Terror Frenzy would last the whole of combat, so would be nice with the > Traps, and would also prevent weapons use by the opposing minion. It still > lets them press to end combat, so what do you do there? Heheh Drawing Out > The Beast! Fun stuff. Hold them exactly where you want them for exactly as > long as you want. They can't maneuver, no matter the range, and they can't > press, either to continue or to end. They can't use weapons and they take > unpreventable damage after each round. 2 cards and one blood. Probably > excessive, yes. But damn it sounds like fun. Imagine, Animalism clans > playing mind games like the Dominate clans. Of course (say the Dominate > clans) one Thoughts Betrayed throws a wrench the size of Africa into the > works. > > Could be a fun deck. Now to find about 10 more Terror Frenzy cards... Hmm, taking a peek at the card texts for Terror Frenzy and Drawing Out The Beast: Terror Frenzy 1 blood, Animalism Combat Only usable before range is determined on the first round. During this combat, the opposing minion can only use maneuvers to set the combat at long range, can only use presses to end combat, and cannot use equipment. (S) Only usable before range is determined. Opposing minion pays an additional blood when playing combat cards this combat. Drawing Out the Beast Animalism Combat Only usable before range is determined on the first round. During this combat, opposing vampire gets +1 hand damage, but he or she can only use maneuvers to cancel maneuvers, can only use presses to continue combat, and cannot use equipment. (S) As above, and opposing vampire takes 1 damage after each round. This damage cannot be prevented. So now I'm thinking that since each card seems to explicitly give permission for a certain type of maneuvering (rather than denying a type, which is what I was thinking previously), you would not hold the opposing minion in place, but rather you would allow him whichever maneuvering the card, TF or DotB, played second in this combo allowed. So if you played TF and then DotB, the DotB specifically states that the opposing minion is allowed to use maneuvers to cancel maneuvers and can use presses to continue combat, which I think would override the card text from the Terror Frenzy. Anyone following? Am I mad? Do I know what I'm talking about? Help? p.

Patrick Harris wrote: > Hmm, taking a peek at the card texts for Terror Frenzy and Drawing Out The Beast: > > Terror Frenzy > 1 blood, Animalism > Combat > Only usable before range is determined on the first round. During this combat, the > opposing minion can only use maneuvers to set the combat at long range, can only > use presses to end combat, and cannot use equipment. > (S) Only usable before range is determined. Opposing minion pays an additional > blood when playing combat cards this combat. > > Drawing Out the Beast > Animalism > Combat > Only usable before range is determined on the first round. During this combat, > opposing vampire gets +1 hand damage, but he or she can only use maneuvers to > cancel maneuvers, can only use presses to continue combat, and cannot use > equipment. > (S) As above, and opposing vampire takes 1 damage after each round. This damage > cannot be prevented. > > So now I'm thinking that since each card seems to explicitly give permission for a > certain type of maneuvering (rather than denying a type, which is what I was > thinking previously), you would not hold the opposing minion in place, but rather > you would allow him whichever maneuvering the card, TF or DotB, played second in > this combo allowed. No. The use of "only" there serves to make the text a restriction, not a permission. You were right the first time: if you play both, the opposing minion can neither maneuver nor press. -- LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp

[snipped card text] Patrick Harris wrote: > > So now I'm thinking that since each card seems to explicitly give permission for a > > certain type of maneuvering (rather than denying a type, which is what I was > > thinking previously), you would not hold the opposing minion in place, but rather > > you would allow him whichever maneuvering the card, TF or DotB, played second in > > this combo allowed. LSJ wrote: > No. The use of "only" there serves to make the text a restriction, not a > permission. You were right the first time: if you play both, the opposing > minion can neither maneuver nor press. Yay! Now then.. I must go and sell my body to afford the Terror Frenzy cards I want. Hey sailor, new in town? p.

In article <7opc99$bup$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, legb...@my-deja.com wrote: Freak Drives and each of your teeny-weenies > taking out three vamps every turn [Bum's Rush, Ambush and Haven > uncovered]. Now THAT should be fast enough to make combat competitive! > i've never seen this kind of deck in action, however, nor do i recall it > being talked about, at least not in exactly these terms. Does that mean > it's been tried and it sucks, or is there some other reason why this > can't work? I tried something like this, only I used the multiple attack action theme to make more use of Basilia. I forewent the aggro claws, of course, to save cards for more freak drives, taste of vitaes (to pay for the whole shebang) and rolling with the punches. Played it in jol76 and it didn't to do well. However, some other deck featuring basilia was played, and we contested for about 7 rounds. In other games, it works surprisingly well. The max deck size is a bit of a problem. The dog pack feature has been really effective in face to face games, since the multiple actions means that it's used a lot. Basilia would DotB, scorpion sting, then roll with the punches and taste. That's just about it. It works tremendously well, if you use moderation in how much you attack. There's a capacity to down several vampires suddenly. A friend and I used MATLAB to script out the deck. We wanted to be able to see how many cards of each in the combo would be necessary to ensure drawing card Y in an average of X draws Z percent of the time. being able to see the choices for each card, and pick the percentages against each other is more helpful than I think people here would expect. I had more success with MATLAB in desiging the master card challenge; a anarch revolt based deck. I know it's been done since and talked about for even longer, (I think the life boon was what made mine a bit different) but I only got it to /really/ work when I went and defined constraints, i.e. I wish to draw a Rumours of Gehenna by turn 3 75% of the time, and a secure haven by turn 4 80% of the time, and so on. I ended up with about 16 Rumours, 10 secure havens, and so on - lots of duplication. Anyway, I just wanted to recommend graphing out these sorts of things to see exactly how precarious playing a combo-intensive deck is. It's far from certain that these combos go off even with such a high amount of duplication. Since then, I've gone back to favoring flexible decks over focused decks. Dan [ quoted text not captured ]