Rotschreck - can Gangrel use it against S:CE?

I have noticed that somebody FINALLY woke up and let the writing on Rotschreck stand as-is. I assume that this card is tourney-legal once again, and I was thinking of building a Gangrel combat deck and I always wanted to use this card. I intend to have some intercept and untapping effects, and I was wondering what you all think of using this card as yet another deterrent to combat avoidance decks. As I read it, if I play Wolf Claws even when my opponent plays a S:CE card, I can still play Rotschreck and send her to torpor . . . is this true? If it is true, what do you think of including a few of these in a reactive Gangrel deck to send people to torpor? It could even work against Potence-heavy combat decks since it nullifies the effects of any strikes in the combat. Myron Mychal

Myron Mychal wrote: > > I have noticed that somebody FINALLY woke up and let the writing on > Rotschreck stand as-is. I assume that this card is tourney-legal once > again, and I was thinking of building a Gangrel combat deck and I always > wanted to use this card. I intend to have some intercept and untapping > effects, and I was wondering what you all think of using this card as > yet another deterrent to combat avoidance decks. As I read it, if I > play Wolf Claws even when my opponent plays a S:CE card, I can still > play Rotschreck and send her to torpor . . . is this true? > Yes. One caveat, however... Rotschreck, being a Master: Out of Turn, may not be played on your turn, so it is only effective when blocking. The only other use would be for a rather odd Malkavian/protean deck, wherein you use the Madness Network to rush out-of-turn and then play Rotschreck. Probably wouldn't work well, though. -Chris

Myron Mychal (mmy...@NOSPAMcharlesindustries.com) wrote: : I have noticed that somebody FINALLY woke up and let the writing on : Rotschreck stand as-is. I assume that this card is tourney-legal once : again, and I was thinking of building a Gangrel combat deck and I always : wanted to use this card. I intend to have some intercept and untapping : effects, and I was wondering what you all think of using this card as : yet another deterrent to combat avoidance decks. As I read it, if I : play Wolf Claws even when my opponent plays a S:CE card, I can still : play Rotschreck and send her to torpor . . . is this true? Yes, this is correct. Note, though, that per the most recent rulings, you will no longer be able to play Rotschreck if you attempt a short-range agg strike at long range. : If it is true, what do you think of including a few of these in a : reactive Gangrel deck to send people to torpor? It could even work : against Potence-heavy combat decks since it nullifies the effects of any : strikes in the combat. I like it. This sort of thing is in one of my deck concepts currently in development. (ie I think about making it but haven't got around to it yet ;-) I was thinking more along the lines of a Tremere intercept-combat Burst of Sunlight/Rotschreck deck. This is because I think the Tremere have easier good intercept available via Auspex, and also because I have at least 10 Burst of Sunlights available... ;-) (The other concepts are, first, a Giovanni/Gangrel/Malkavian Compel the Spirit deck, based on a bunch of Compels, Garou, Muddled Vampire Hunters, and Carlotta Giovanni... I'm pretty sure it'll be freaking hilarious, but I'm waiting on some more Compel the Spirits so I can actually put it together. And the other concept is a Tremere weenie thau Cryptic Mission/ Society of Leopold deck, which I'm inspired to try by someone else's posting of the idea a while ago - I think it can't help but be funny. Kinda like my current Arms Dealer deck - weenie Brujah (and others with celerity) with guns, and 17 Arms Dealers. It's not very effective, but it sure does get out a lot of minions...) Josh almost tempted to put a Werewolf Pack into the allies deck... just because it probably wouldn't hurt that much...

du...@newton.ruph.cornell.edu (Joshua Duffin) wrote: >Myron Mychal (mmy...@NOSPAMcharlesindustries.com) wrote: >: I have noticed that somebody FINALLY woke up and let the writing on >: Rotschreck stand as-is. I assume that this card is tourney-legal once >: again, and I was thinking of building a Gangrel combat deck and I always >: wanted to use this card. I intend to have some intercept and untapping >: effects, and I was wondering what you all think of using this card as >: yet another deterrent to combat avoidance decks. As I read it, if I >: play Wolf Claws even when my opponent plays a S:CE card, I can still >: play Rotschreck and send her to torpor . . . is this true? >Yes, this is correct. Note, though, that per the most recent rulings, >you will no longer be able to play Rotschreck if you attempt a short-range >agg strike at long range. >: If it is true, what do you think of including a few of these in a >: reactive Gangrel deck to send people to torpor? It could even work >: against Potence-heavy combat decks since it nullifies the effects of any >: strikes in the combat. >I like it. This sort of thing is in one of my deck concepts currently in >development. (ie I think about making it but haven't got around to it >yet ;-) I was thinking more along the lines of a Tremere intercept-combat >Burst of Sunlight/Rotschreck deck. This is because I think the Tremere >have easier good intercept available via Auspex, and also because I have >at least 10 Burst of Sunlights available... ;-) Good call. Auspex will also get you Eagle's Sight, a much more reliable tool for pointing a reaction combat deck at one's prey. Too often, reaction combat decks just end up making your predator ineffectual, and allow grand-predator to take the table... >(The other concepts are, first, a Giovanni/Gangrel/Malkavian Compel the Spirit >deck, based on a bunch of Compels, Garou, Muddled Vampire Hunters, and >Carlotta Giovanni... I'm pretty sure it'll be freaking hilarious, but >I'm waiting on some more Compel the Spirits so I can actually put it >together. And the other concept is a Tremere weenie thau Cryptic Mission/ >Society of Leopold deck, which I'm inspired to try by someone else's >posting of the idea a while ago - I think it can't help but be funny. >Kinda like my current Arms Dealer deck - weenie Brujah (and others with >celerity) with guns, and 17 Arms Dealers. It's not very effective, but >it sure does get out a lot of minions...) Another variant of the ally deck idea above would make good use of your Bursts... (I've build one called the "21 Burst Salute") They're goofy, slightly scary, but mostly ineffectual. Start with a _really_ tiny crypt (2-3 caps, in clan), add Shadow Court Satyr, Talaq, the Immortal, and Nephandus, Mage. Mix in as many Bursts of Sunlight as you and your exended family can find. Round out with disciplineless combat cards (including rush), and maybe some Necro ally regeneration. (If you play Gio in the Crypt, add Ambrosius and a Talbot's Chainsaw) Talaq and the Satyr bump vamps into torpor by pulling up the shades, and Nephandus tidys up later on... It's grand fun, and if your lucky, it happens once every three games ;-) >Josh >almost tempted to put a Werewolf Pack into the allies deck... just because >it probably wouldn't hurt that much... Regards, R. David Zopf guenh...@mindspring.com Atom Weaver and Prince of Charlotte, NC

Richard D. Zopf (guenh...@mindspring.com) wrote: : du...@newton.ruph.cornell.edu (Joshua Duffin) wrote: : >I like it. This sort of thing is in one of my deck concepts currently in : >development. (ie I think about making it but haven't got around to it : >yet ;-) I was thinking more along the lines of a Tremere intercept-combat : >Burst of Sunlight/Rotschreck deck. This is because I think the Tremere : >have easier good intercept available via Auspex, and also because I have : >at least 10 Burst of Sunlights available... ;-) : Good call. Auspex will also get you Eagle's Sight, a much more : reliable tool for pointing a reaction combat deck at one's prey. Too : often, reaction combat decks just end up making your predator : ineffectual, and allow grand-predator to take the table... Yes, the Eagle's Sight is very good for blocking prey's actions even if they're not undirected... I also like the intercept/rotschreck because it allows you to block rescue attempts and kick more butt - unlike with, for example, Gangrel rush where you'd probably have to actually take a diablerie action to keep someone from getting back out of torpor. Josh ought to get around to actually building these decks sometime...

Chris Berger <ber...@cco.caltech.edu> wrote: > Myron Mychal wrote: > > > > I have noticed that somebody FINALLY woke up and let the writing on > > Rotschreck stand as-is. I assume that this card is tourney-legal once > > again, and I was thinking of building a Gangrel combat deck and I always > > wanted to use this card. I intend to have some intercept and untapping > > effects, and I was wondering what you all think of using this card as > > yet another deterrent to combat avoidance decks. As I read it, if I > > play Wolf Claws even when my opponent plays a S:CE card, I can still > > play Rotschreck and send her to torpor . . . is this true? > > > Yes. One caveat, however... Rotschreck, being a Master: Out of Turn, > may not be played on your turn, [...] Correct. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

I am testing out this angle right now in JOL85. I am using a Tzimisce deck to do it. My feeling is that this will type of deck will have a broken archetype - i.e. one of the various decks that can do this sort of thing will prove to be broken. I am not so sure the Tzimisce will do it, and the only thing that holds back the !Gangrel is their lack of intercept. Anyways, I am investigating and will let you know how it turns out. If anyone else has decks like this (based on this concept) going in JOL, please respond. The second reason I am posting my feelings now is because of all of the talk going on about 'hypothetical' and 'possible' expansions. Plain and simple folks - if this deck concept doesn't have a broken archetype now....I believe it is only one new card away from the big show. So keep your minds and ears open to the possibilities of how scary this combo can be (I hope you read this LSJ). We all know how effective the W:OTC playtesters are :( I really don't want to see any repeats of the Tomb/RTI stuff going on, and even a very innocuous new card could make the: Intercept/Aggro/Rotschreck/Amaranth combo very very broken. Jaysen Ahhh.....so those rumours of gehenna are true after all...... [ quoted text not captured ]

jay...@compusmart.ab.ca wrote: > Intercept/Aggro/Rotschreck/Amaranth combo very very broken. And not legal. Amaranth cannot be played after combat. And "after Rotschreck" is "after combat". [ quoted text not captured ]

> I am testing out this angle right now in JOL85. I am using a Tzimisce > deck to do it. We've already playtested the "intercept, wave agg dmg, play Rotschreck" in our group. It's balanced itself out. Yeah...it's a "go directly to torpor, do not pass go" card...but you can also play it as a defense if you're about to get burned. A two-edged sword, perhaps...but it does cut both ways. It does help against people who rely on S:CE and damage prevention. Putting fear back into the game is a good thing IMO. > My feeling is that this will type of deck will have a > broken archetype - i.e. one of the various decks that can do this sort > of thing will prove to be broken. I am not so sure the Tzimisce will > do it, Absolutely they can. Body Arsenal, Breath of the Dragon, Femur of Toomler not to mention all the intercept that Auspex and Animalism provides. > and the only thing that holds back the !Gangrel is their lack > of intercept. No clan has any right to bitch from lack of intercept. Esp. a clan with animalism. It has Cats' Guidance, Raven Spy and Raptor not to mention the untaps it provides. There's also Sport Bikes, Elder Intervention/Pack Tactics, Mr Winthrop and Atonement. There is also the Media Master Cards and Guardian Angel. If you can't find intercept...you're not looking hard enough. > The second reason I am posting my feelings now > is because of all of the talk going on about 'hypothetical' and > 'possible' expansions. I believe in a new expansion. I also believe in the Tooth Fairy. Let's pretend I'm from Missouri. Show me. > Intercept/Aggro/Rotschreck/Amaranth combo very very broken. You can't play Amaranth after Rotschreck because Rots. ends combat immediately. The acting player can still has the opportunity to rescue the vampire from torpor with another ready vampire. I don't see a problem with the recent (and in my opinion correct) interpretation of the card. But then, I'll argue for strict card text every time. Noal McDonald Great Googily Moogily of Westland, MI [ quoted text not captured ]

Dhar...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > I am testing out this angle right now in JOL85. I am using a Tzimisce > > deck to do it. > > We've already playtested the "intercept, wave agg dmg, play Rotschreck" in > our group. It's balanced itself out. Yeah...it's a "go directly to torpor, > do not pass go" card...but you can also play it as a defense if you're about > to get burned. A two-edged sword, perhaps...but it does cut both ways. > > It does help against people who rely on S:CE and damage prevention. > Putting fear back into the game is a good thing IMO. > You forget that it also hoses rush decks :) > > > My feeling is that this will type of deck will have a > > broken archetype - i.e. one of the various decks that can do this sort > > of thing will prove to be broken. I am not so sure the Tzimisce will > > do it, > > Absolutely they can. Body Arsenal, Breath of the Dragon, Femur of > Toomler not to mention all the intercept that Auspex and Animalism > provides. > Of course I know they can pull of the combo (some credit here please), the question is - can they do it brokenly (yes, I know that isn't a real word)? > > > and the only thing that holds back the !Gangrel is their lack > > of intercept. > > No clan has any right to bitch from lack of intercept. Esp. a clan with > animalism. It has Cats' Guidance, Raven Spy and Raptor not to > mention the untaps it provides. There's also Sport Bikes, Elder > Intervention/Pack Tactics, Mr Winthrop and Atonement. There is > also the Media Master Cards and Guardian Angel. > They don't have easy intercept. Their intercept requires either superior ANI, pool intensive masters, or equip/retain actions - and while this is easy enough to do in a JOL setting (where you usually get more time to set up), it may be very hard to do in a tournament. > > If you can't find intercept...you're not looking hard enough. > pphhhbbbtttt :)~ > > > The second reason I am posting my feelings now > > is because of all of the talk going on about 'hypothetical' and > > 'possible' expansions. > > I believe in a new expansion. I also believe in the Tooth Fairy. > Let's pretend I'm from Missouri. Show me. > Some hope. Some pray. Some think Bill didn't have true sexual relations with Monica....... (hmmmm....sorry I brought up the Bill thing) > > > Intercept/Aggro/Rotschreck/Amaranth combo very very broken. > > You can't play Amaranth after Rotschreck because Rots. ends > combat immediately. The acting player can still has the opportunity > to rescue the vampire from torpor with another ready vampire. > Question: why do I forget this point every third or fourth day? Sometimes I remember, but often I forget. It is a good point - thank-you. > > I don't see a problem with the recent (and in my opinion correct) > interpretation of the card. But then, I'll argue for strict card text > every time. > A very good way to go. My point is still somewhat valid though. What do you really need for this combo: Intercept - Aggro. (preferably ranged) - Rotschreck followed by Diablerie - Diablerie forgiveness. (You may need to block rescuers as well) The !Gangrel would be perfect for this (!Gangrel Conspiracy is the card I think). Any 'ANI pro' !Gangrel could pull off this combo quite easily (may need Parthenon), and you only need to pull it off once in order to seriously maim any non-weenie based opponent (pred or prey). Note: There may be a lot of conditions in the deck above, but they aren't that big a deal. Call a Rumors - and give it to every one; who needs Parthenon? I agree with you to a large extent. As of right now there is no deck/clan that can abuse this too much: Tremere and Gangrel would require votes or Absolutions, !Gangrel don't have the vamp selection really required to go to town with this, Tzimisce would have a hard time getting the votes - and don't have access to Absolution, et al. That could, however, change with any expansion (however remote the chances are), so I wanted to say my piece now. Just occurred to me: how about ignoring the whole forgiveness thing with disposable weenies? Makes for a smaller combo that requires no Parthenon or Rumors in play in your favor. (Should I insert evil cackle here? How about that Vulnerability card? hmmmmmmm.....) Jaysen [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <361D62A9...@internorth.com>, jay...@compusmart.ab.ca wrote: > Note: There may be a lot of conditions in the deck above, but they aren't that > big a deal. Call a Rumors - and give it to every one; who needs Parthenon? Conditions? In a theme deck? Who cares? Go hog wild! Hmm...well, maybe it isn't a "theme" deck, but when you're specifically exploiting a combination and having the whole deck revolve around it, that's good enough for me... > Just occurred to me: how about ignoring the whole forgiveness thing with > disposable weenies? Makes for a smaller combo that requires no Parthenon Good idea...I like it lots. While I'm going off, this may not get read by authorities, but I just realized after noticing the comments on Aching Beauty not being useful after Clan Impersonation...I think that makes my "Smudge gets 7 hand damage" deck (aka Takin' Smudge Out on the Town) a little less effective. I'd have to check the card text to be sure, but at least one of Ritual Challenge, Art of Pain, and Gangrel Revel has to mention the clan by name...effectively invalidating the big-ass combo...but oh well...maybe I won't mention this problem if I actually get around to playing it... > or Rumors in play in your favor. (Should I insert evil cackle here? How > about that Vulnerability card? hmmmmmmm.....) Isn't that tempting fate? Trying to make a useful deck with wallpaper? If you actually find a use for Vulnerability, there should be some sort of celebration, I think...has anyone ever actually used in any fashion other than as a prayer card? Xian "you can just ignore it....and let hand jam sort them out." -Jasper Phillips [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <6vkah8$7j3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <xi...@waste.org> wrote: >In article <361D62A9...@internorth.com>, >Isn't that tempting fate? Trying to make a useful deck with wallpaper? If >you actually find a use for Vulnerability, there should be some sort of >celebration, I think...has anyone ever actually used in any fashion other >than as a prayer card? I think there's a prize actually: we can have everyone send you all of thier unused Vulnerabilities... -- /\ Jasper Phillips /VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--. * http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`

In article <6vkd92$si3$1...@news.NERO.NET>, phil...@tx.ENGR.ORST.EDU (Jasper Phillips) wrote: > In article <6vkah8$7j3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <xi...@waste.org> wrote: > >In article <361D62A9...@internorth.com>, > >Isn't that tempting fate? Trying to make a useful deck with wallpaper? If > >you actually find a use for Vulnerability, there should be some sort of > >celebration, I think...has anyone ever actually used in any fashion other > >than as a prayer card? > > I think there's a prize actually: we can have everyone send you all > of thier unused Vulnerabilities... > Hey...not like *I* want them...send 'em to Jaysen... And don't we have a rumble somewhere underneath New York to attend to? Heh. Xian (Is it bad form to be using the person you're replying to for your sig? Hehe.) [ quoted text not captured ]

xi...@waste.org wrote: > [snip] > While I'm going off, this may not get read by authorities, but I just > realized after noticing the comments on Aching Beauty not being useful after > Clan Impersonation...I think that makes my "Smudge gets 7 hand damage" deck > (aka Takin' Smudge Out on the Town) a little less effective. I'd have to > check the card text to be sure, but at least one of Ritual Challenge, Art of > Pain, and Gangrel Revel has to mention the clan by name...effectively > invalidating the big-ass combo...but oh well...maybe I won't mention this > problem if I actually get around to playing it... Ritual Challenge is OK, once it is "on" the vampire (it can only be put on the acting Gangrel, but once it's on, it affects the "vampire" with the card). Art of Pain is OK, for the same reason (it can only be played on a !Toreador, but once it's on, it affects the "vampire" with the card). Gangrel Revel only affects Gangrel - if a Gangrel is Impersonating another clan, he won't benefit. [ quoted text not captured ]