LSJ abombwe question

I'm quite fond of abombwe, but i'm just curious about the way the abombwe disciplien is written : I control Yavu matebo, abo/DOM/NEC/AUS and want to play an abombwe discipline on him. He is not a laibon, he has no protean. So i can't grant him superior abombwe even if he has already the inferior discipline ? is it designer's intent or a simple mistake ?

reyda wrote: > I'm quite fond of abombwe, but i'm just curious about the way the > abombwe disciplien is written: > I control Yavu matebo, abo/DOM/NEC/AUS and want to play an abombwe > discipline on him. He is not a laibon, he has no protean. > So i can't grant him superior abombwe even if he has already the > inferior discipline ? Correct. > is it designer's intent or a simple mistake ? Perhaps both.

The real question is: Why the hell do you control Yavu matebo?

On Dec 22, 10:33 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > is [Yavu + abo skill card] designer's intent or a simple mistake ? > > Perhaps both. How can it be both? If you considered the interaction, then it's intent. If you didn't consider the interaction, then there's no intent. I can understand how it could be neither (didn't consider the interaction, and not a problem), but I don't how it could be both (considered the interaction, and still is a mistake.) Ira

In message <9565b30c-396f-4f1f...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups [ quoted text not captured ] It could be what the designer wanted to do, but still - relatively objectively - a mistake, with hindsight. Taking the most extreme example, it was clear that the designer intent for Return to Innocence (14 bleed in one go) was a mistake. The point about designer intent is that you don't get to use 20/20 hindsight to check what you're doing. So you can intend to do something and miss how it will turn out in actual play, or overlook something else. With the Abombwe card, it is reasonably easy to see that vampires with Protean will pretty much always have Protean, so you can play it again. Similarly, they could change away from Laibon, but it's not that common. So designer intent could be "Okay, that works out fine. Let's keep the card text shorter!" You could then overlook dragging it out via a create-a-vamp card (or otherwise), and possibly consider that to be a mistake. Or not. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

[ quoted text not captured ] Good question. My take on it is that it was designer intent on one of the cards and an oversight on the other (considering here "Yavu" and "Abombwe"). With hindsight, Scott would have probably worded "Abombwe" in a way that it can also be played on a vampire with inferior Abombwe... ...or just give Yavu a different OOC. :) -- Regards, Daneel

agzocgud a écrit : > The real question is: > > Why the hell do you control Yavu matebo? because his special can become handy, plus he has a nice set of disciplines. The idea is to make him gain 2 generations, then use his special for less and influence him often. Emergency rations or consume the dead can easily full him to full capacity, enabling a nice combo (since his cap is not changed when he's in the uncontrolled region). I was trying to build the deck when i remarked this oddity... that's pretty much it :)

[ quoted text not captured ] I don't understand how making him gain generations could change anything regarding his special ? He'll still have to pay 2 blood, and you'll still have to pay 2 pool to get him back, won't you ?

[ quoted text not captured ] Discipline Masters don't count in the uncontrolled region. So, if you have a Rack on him, and 2 random discipline masters, you can fill him up to 10, use his special, and bring him right back out with his 8 blood.

[ quoted text not captured ] I see, thank you. -- Orpheus --------- "The morning air was dark with the smoke of burning gods" George R. R. Martin

Re: Yavu Matebo "Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message news:6uWdncXgi4PHMPLa...@comcast.com... > Orpheus <orphe...@deadspamfree.fr> wrote: >> I don't understand how making him gain generations could change anything >> regarding his special ? He'll still have to pay 2 blood, and you'll still >> have to pay 2 pool to get him back, won't you ? > > Discipline Masters don't count in the uncontrolled region. > So, if you have a Rack on him, and 2 random discipline masters, you can fill > him up to 10, use his special, and bring him right back out with his 8 blood. Is that right?!? Hello, can we get that confirmed? I mean, I know discipline masters, like all library cards, are out of play in the uncontrolled region. But so is the original vampire crypt card itself, so I'd always just assumed his capacity, for purposes of rule 7, would include the effects of all face down library cards played on top of him. Have I been playing this wrong all this time? Not that it comes up very often or anything, but it's still an important nit, I suppose. Hmmm. Interesting side question: if you then "over-influenced", i.e. put extra blood on the face down uncontrolled vampire which then came into play, would the extra blood which is not in excess of the vampire's capacity (once face up) then not drain off as it otherwise does? I gather it would not since the drain off rule is the same one that's always in effect for controlled vampires. Fred

On Dec 24, 9:00 am, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Uh... isn't the rack and master cards out of play on a face down vampire in uncontrolled region?

<adam....@gmail.com> wrote in message news:ffc45203-d96a-4477...@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Actually, the Rack isn't out of play, not it matters as far as this issue is concerned - Yavu comes back into play before his controller's next untap phase, anyway, as long as the master cards don't count. But the card text on the rack does not specified that it is played _on_ a ready vampire - only that its (new) controller specify a ready vampire. Presumed once specified, the relationship is then established between The Rack and the copy of the card specified - wherever it is. (Hmmmm, would it still function if the vampire was stolen and was in another player's controlled region? How about if it was still face down in someone's uncontrolled region? I'm guessing 'yes' on the former, 'no' on the latter because that vampire is out of play.) Fred

On Dec 24, 4:33 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > <adam.hu...@gmail.com> wrote in message [ quoted text not captured ] Not sure what everyone is saying but this link states that you do not gain blood due to rack on vamp in uncontrolled region: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/80b97c174cdc085d/7e8eb049f6af9234?lnk=gst&q=rack+uncontrolled#7e8eb049f6af9234 "Yavu comes back into play before his controller's next untap phase" Uh... why does he?

Frederick Scott wrote: > "Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message >> Discipline Masters don't count in the uncontrolled region. > Is that right?!? Hello, can we get that confirmed? Hello. Yes. Out of play Discipline cards do not affect the vampire's capacity. > Hmmm. Interesting side question: if you then "over-influenced", i.e. put extra > blood on the face down uncontrolled vampire which then came into play, would > the extra blood which is not in excess of the vampire's capacity (once face up) > then not drain off as it otherwise does? I gather it would not since the drain > off rule is the same one that's always in effect for controlled vampires. Correct.

<adam....@gmail.com> wrote in message news:3d9039ee-0886-41f7...@x29g2000prg.googlegroups.com... > On Dec 24, 4:33 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: >> <adam.hu...@gmail.com> wrote in message >> >> news:ffc45203-d96a-4477...@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... >> >> > On Dec 24, 9:00 am, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: >> >> Discipline Masters don't count in the uncontrolled region. >> >> So, if you have a Rack on him, and 2 random discipline masters, you can fill >> >> him up to 10, use his special, and bring him right back out with his 8 blood. >> >> > Uh... isn't the rack and master cards out of play on a face down >> > vampire in uncontrolled region? >> >> Actually, the Rack isn't out of play, not that it matters as far as this >> issue is concerned - Yavu comes back into play before his controller's >> next untap phase, anyway, as long as the master cards don't count. But >> the card text on The Rack does not specify that it is played _on_ a >> ready vampire - only that its (new) controller specify a ready vampire. >> Presumedly once specified, the relationship is then established between >> The Rack and the copy of the card specified - wherever it is. > > Not sure what everyone is saying but this link states that you do not > gain blood due to rack on vamp in uncontrolled region: OK, thanks for that - I wasn't certain. > "Yavu comes back into play before his controller's next untap phase" > > Uh... why does he? You're right. He does not, sorry for confusing you. I was thinking the guy who posted this was using the function during his own turn and causing Yavu to get influenced right back out. But you don't use Yavu's function during your own turn; it's used during one of your opponents' turns. So he can't return until the controller's _next_ untap phase - limiting his usage to every other turn (but it continues to be free as long as you can continue to control the rack). Fred

"Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message news:I4Ybj.48989$KU2....@newsfe11.phx... [ quoted text not captured ] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ BLEH! Meant to say "his controller's _next_ influence phase". Please go about your business... [ quoted text not captured ]

On Dec 24, 8:26 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in messagenews:I4Ybj.48989$KU2....@newsfe11.phx... [ quoted text not captured ] "(but it continues to be free as long as you can continue to control the rack)" But... the link I showed shows that the rack does NOT add to a vamp in the uncontrolled region. ???

In message <8c0a4977-dd33-46b9...@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups .com>, "adam....@gmail.com" <adam....@gmail.com> writes: >"(but it continues >to be free as long as you can continue to control the rack)" > >But... the link I showed shows that the rack does NOT add to a vamp in >the uncontrolled region. Okay guys, here's one possible sequence of events. Basic points: a) Discipline masters do not give capacity in the uncontrolled region. b) The Rack does not give blood in the uncontrolled region. c) You may be trying to do things too quickly. 1) Bring out Yavu. 2) Play the Rack, targetting Yavu. Also play Discipline masters to take Yavu up to 10. 3) Wait until Yavu gets to 10 blood. 4) Use Yavu's special. Go to uncontrolled region. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200 blood points. 5) Yavu is now on 8 blood. In the uncontrolled region, 8 capacity. Rack won't work but... During next influence phase, bring Yavu out for free because, unlike the "normal" way of doing this, Yavu isn't short two blood to come out. 6) Now that Yavu is out, The Rack will start giving him blood again. Go to step 3. Repeat. For garnish: 2a) Add more discipline masters, if you feel like it, so that Yavu could store up more blood. [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:QT0LuZso...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > In message <8c0a4977-dd33-46b9...@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups > .com>, "adam....@gmail.com" <adam....@gmail.com> writes: >>"(but it continues >>to be free as long as you can continue to control the rack)" >> >>But... the link I showed shows that the rack does NOT add to a vamp in >>the uncontrolled region. > > Okay guys, here's one possible sequence of events. > > Basic points: > > a) Discipline masters do not give capacity in the uncontrolled region. > b) The Rack does not give blood in the uncontrolled region. > c) You may be trying to do things too quickly. > > > 1) Bring out Yavu. > 2) Play the Rack, targetting Yavu. Also play Discipline masters to take > Yavu up to 10. > 3) Wait until Yavu gets to 10 blood. > 4) Use Yavu's special. Go to uncontrolled region. Do not pass go. Do > not collect 200 blood points. > 5) Yavu is now on 8 blood. In the uncontrolled region, 8 capacity. > Rack won't work but... During next influence phase, bring Yavu > out for free because, unlike the "normal" way of doing this, > Yavu isn't short two blood to come out. > 6) Now that Yavu is out, The Rack will start giving him blood again. Go > to step 3. Repeat. Yea, this is what I meant. I think Adam is getting tripped up by not understanding that I was conceding he was right (Yavu does not get The Rack blood while uncontrolled) so he would not get free blood on his controllers _next_ untap phase. (Or perhaps by posting before reading my self-correction about untap vs. influence phase.) But then on his controller's next influence phase, Yavu become controlled, and on the next untap after that he then gets free blood from The Rack. Your basic point (c) is important - in this scenario it would be possible to use Yavu again too quickly, in which case he cost his controller pool to bring back out. And The Rack is being used sort of ineffeciently here because it doesn't work one turn every time Yavu is used (but still has to be defended as if it were). Fred

On Dec 25, 10:00 am, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > "James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in messagenews:QT0LuZso...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > > In message <8c0a4977-dd33-46b9-a443-498c622ec...@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups [ quoted text not captured ] That is a good way to sum it up. Thanks!

On Tue, 25 Dec 2007, Frederick Scott wrote: > Yea, this is what I meant. I think Adam is getting tripped up by not > understanding that I was conceding he was right (Yavu does not get The > Rack blood while uncontrolled) so he would not get free blood on his > controllers _next_ untap phase. (Or perhaps by posting before reading > my self-correction about untap vs. influence phase.) But then on his > controller's next influence phase, Yavu become controlled, and on the > next untap after that he then gets free blood from The Rack. Your basic > point (c) is important - in this scenario it would be possible to use > Yavu again too quickly, in which case he cost his controller pool to > bring back out. And The Rack is being used sort of ineffeciently here > because it doesn't work one turn every time Yavu is used (but still has > to be defended as if it were). Forget The Rack. This deck obviously needs Malkavian Anarchs with Quietus playing Undue Influence out of turn with Madness Network. Maybe some Trophies too. Matt Morgan

Matthew T. Morgan schrieb: > Maybe some Trophies too. There is no deck that doesn´t need trophies. -- Johannes Walch