Can you use Spirit Marionette to take control of a vampire, drain it
of everything it has with Heidelburg, including any blood, and then
bleed your prey with it?
For completeness sake:
Spirit Marionette
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Obeah/Dominate
[dom] (D) Bleed at +1 bleed.
[obe] (D) Bleed at +1 bleed, and tap a ready minion controlled by your
prey (even if the target of the bleed is changed).
[OBE] +1 stealth action. (D) Take control of any ready untapped minion
until the end of the next action. That minion must bleed your prey
unless he or she must hunt.
Now, forgive me if I read this wrong. I play Spirit Marionette. Let's
just say nobody blocks or can block, so the action is succesful. As a
result I get my chosen vampire. That vampire now MUST bleed, BUT
Spirit Marionette says specifically that I keep control of it until
after the NEXT action. This obviously implies that this next action is
the obligatory bleed action. Anywhere between the succesful Spirit
Marionette and the bleed there is a time when there's no action. I
theory, I could tap Heidelburg at this point to totally drain that
vampire. That same question is by the way relevant with a card like
Temptation.
Can I do this or is it really a broken combo?
On a related note, switching weapons. I have two muddled vampire
hunters in play and a single Sengir Dagger. Let's say MVH#1 has the
dagger. I attack someone's vampire and torporize it. Now I tap
Heidelburg and transfer the Dagger to MVH#2 and attack something else.
Can I do that too?
Oh, I just realized you can't use Heidel for allies, but you get the
point. The same trick can of course be done with a Treasured Samajdi,
that !Malk bleed puppet thing and many, many other weapons.
Isn't there some errate "can only be used during master phase"? I'm
getting increasingly annoyed with the amount of ridiculous combo's
that you can get out of this card.
Phoenix wrote:
> Can you use Spirit Marionette to take control of a vampire, drain it
> of everything it has with Heidelburg, including any blood, and then
> bleed your prey with it?
NO since he has no blood left.
> For completeness sake:
>
> Spirit Marionette
> Cardtype: Action
> Discipline: Obeah/Dominate
> [dom] (D) Bleed at +1 bleed.
> [obe] (D) Bleed at +1 bleed, and tap a ready minion controlled by your
> prey (even if the target of the bleed is changed).
> [OBE] +1 stealth action. (D) Take control of any ready untapped minion
> until the end of the next action. That minion must bleed your prey
> unless he or she must hunt.
>
> Now, forgive me if I read this wrong. I play Spirit Marionette. Let's
> just say nobody blocks or can block, so the action is succesful. As a
> result I get my chosen vampire. That vampire now MUST bleed, BUT
> Spirit Marionette says specifically that I keep control of it until
> after the NEXT action. This obviously implies that this next action is
> the obligatory bleed action. Anywhere between the succesful Spirit
> Marionette and the bleed there is a time when there's no action. I
> theory, I could tap Heidelburg at this point to totally drain that
> vampire. That same question is by the way relevant with a card like
> Temptation.
>
> Can I do this or is it really a broken combo?
The way you want to do it you can't. However you may bleed and then tap
Heidelberg.
>
> On a related note, switching weapons. I have two muddled vampire
> hunters in play and a single Sengir Dagger. Let's say MVH#1 has the
> dagger. I attack someone's vampire and torporize it. Now I tap
> Heidelburg and transfer the Dagger to MVH#2 and attack something else.
> Can I do that too?
Muddled Vamoire Hunter is unique.
>
> Oh, I just realized you can't use Heidel for allies, but you get the
> point. The same trick can of course be done with a Treasured Samajdi,
> that !Malk bleed puppet thing and many, many other weapons.
and is an ally.
>
> Isn't there some errate "can only be used during master phase"? I'm
> getting increasingly annoyed with the amount of ridiculous combo's
> that you can get out of this card.
--
Andreas Nusser
www.vekn.de
a.nu...@vekn.de
In message <84a43beb.03061...@posting.google.com>, Phoenix
<izaak.h...@o2.nl> writes:
>Can you use Spirit Marionette to take control of a vampire, drain it
>of everything it has with Heidelburg, including any blood, and then
>bleed your prey with it?
Yes.
>Now, forgive me if I read this wrong. I play Spirit Marionette. Let's
>just say nobody blocks or can block, so the action is succesful. As a
>result I get my chosen vampire. That vampire now MUST bleed, BUT
>Spirit Marionette says specifically that I keep control of it until
>after the NEXT action. This obviously implies that this next action is
>the obligatory bleed action.
It is, unless another mandatory action turns up from somewhere. (e.g.
you untap after the Marionette with a Freak drive and end up empty.)
>Anywhere between the succesful Spirit
>Marionette and the bleed there is a time when there's no action.
Correct. Just like any other action.
>I
>theory, I could tap Heidelburg at this point to totally drain that
>vampire. That same question is by the way relevant with a card like
>Temptation.
>
>Can I do this or is it really a broken combo?
You can do it.
No-one has yet managed to successfully abuse it if, indeed, it is
abuseable.
This isn't significantly different to Mind Rape or Temptation or
similar. And - needing Salubri to pull it off - provides an obvious
point of weakness.
>On a related note, switching weapons. I have two muddled vampire
>hunters in play
No you don't. It's unique.
>and a single Sengir Dagger. Let's say MVH#1 has the
>dagger. I attack someone's vampire and torporize it. Now I tap
>Heidelburg and transfer the Dagger to MVH#2 and attack something else.
>Can I do that too?
>
>Oh, I just realized you can't use Heidel for allies,
Correct.
>but you get the
>point. The same trick can of course be done with a Treasured Samajdi,
>that !Malk bleed puppet thing and many, many other weapons.
Between two vampires, once per turn, yes.
>Isn't there some errate "can only be used during master phase"? I'm
>getting increasingly annoyed with the amount of ridiculous combo's
>that you can get out of this card.
No. You simply can't use it during an action.
And they're not exactly 'ridiculous' combos. And if you want to, you
can always use location destruction to get rid of it. Or contest it.
Or Sudden it.
It's hardly unstoppable.
And since you're talking about equipment, with guns being quite popular
these days, generic equipment defence is hardly a bad option.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2
So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D
In message <bckco4$ku5$1...@stu1id2.ip.tesion.net>, Andreas Nusser
<time...@NOSPAMscram.de> writes:
>> [OBE] +1 stealth action. (D) Take control of any ready untapped minion
>> until the end of the next action. That minion must bleed your prey
>> unless he or she must hunt.>>The way you want to do it you can't. However you may bleed and then tap
>Heidelberg.
Incorrect. You can't use Heidelb[ue]rg during an action.
And at the end of the next action, you send the vampire back to its
proper controller. You don't have control outside of an action, when
the bleed finishes.
(You do have control outside of an action between Spirit and the bleed,
however.)
[ quoted text not captured ]
James Coupe wrote:
> In message <bckco4$ku5$1...@stu1id2.ip.tesion.net>, Andreas Nusser
> <time...@NOSPAMscram.de> writes:
>>>>[OBE] +1 stealth action. (D) Take control of any ready untapped minion
>>>until the end of the next action. That minion must bleed your prey
>>>unless he or she must hunt.>>
>>The way you want to do it you can't. However you may bleed and then tap
>>Heidelberg.>
> Incorrect. You can't use Heidelb[ue]rg during an action.
>
> And at the end of the next action, you send the vampire back to its
> proper controller. You don't have control outside of an action, when
> the bleed finishes.
>
> (You do have control outside of an action between Spirit and the bleed,
> however.)
>
I thought there is time after the actions has completed! Didn't you have
a choice what to do first?
[ quoted text not captured ]
> In message <84a43beb.03061...@posting.google.com>, Phoenix
> <izaak.h...@o2.nl> writes:>>Can you use Spirit Marionette to take control of a vampire, drain it
>>of everything it has with Heidelburg, including any blood, and then
>>bleed your prey with it?> Yes.
You must leave one blood on if you want to bleed. Otherwise you have to hunt
with it. Personally I would choose to leave one and bleed (with a decent
chance of being blocked and being able to lose the combat convincingly ;-)
>>Now, forgive me if I read this wrong. I play Spirit Marionette. Let's
>>just say nobody blocks or can block, so the action is succesful. As a
>>result I get my chosen vampire. That vampire now MUST bleed, BUT
>>Spirit Marionette says specifically that I keep control of it until
>>after the NEXT action. This obviously implies that this next action is
>>the obligatory bleed action.> It is, unless another mandatory action turns up from somewhere. (e.g.
> you untap after the Marionette with a Freak drive and end up empty.)
In this case it can (and should if you have any sense) still be the bleed as
you can choose the order of multiple mandatory actions. Of course if youi
strip it completely you may not then want to hunt with it...
Andreas Nusser wrote:
> James Coupe wrote:>> Incorrect. You can't use Heidelb[ue]rg during an action.
>>
>> And at the end of the next action, you send the vampire back to its
>> proper controller. You don't have control outside of an action, when
>> the bleed finishes.
>>
>> (You do have control outside of an action between Spirit and the bleed,
>> however.)
>>> I thought there is time after the actions has completed! Didn't you have
> a choice what to do first?
No. There isn't a "give this card to his former controller" effect that
you can order. There is just a "you have control of this vampire until
the end of the next action." If that next action has ended, you no longer
have control.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
"Timlagor" <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:zcqgl5ild8x5$.h6gxcjlexs0.dlg@40tude.net...
> > In message <84a43beb.03061...@posting.google.com>, Phoenix
> > <izaak.h...@o2.nl> writes:
> >>Can you use Spirit Marionette to take control of a vampire, drain it
> >>of everything it has with Heidelburg, including any blood, and then
> >>bleed your prey with it?
> > Yes.
>
> You must leave one blood on if you want to bleed. Otherwise you have to
hunt
> with it. Personally I would choose to leave one and bleed (with a decent
> chance of being blocked and being able to lose the combat convincingly ;-)
I have a deck which uses this method for gaining blood back. Its basically
filled with minion taps, heidelberg and spirit marionette's. Did fairly
well the first tourney I took it to as well. You may want to consider
packing about 4 or 5 daring the dawns. That way you can spirit marionette
pesky vamps like, oh, Arika, drain her with Heidelburg and then use inferior
Daring the Dawn to have her hunt unblockably. Then, ordering effects as you
see fit, you take the 2 agg first and she burns. Yummy.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Jon Stahler" <!NOSPAM!sta...@ilir.uiuc.edu> wrote in message news:<LhkHa.18898$6P6.2...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>...
[snip]
> I have a deck which uses this method for gaining blood back. Its basically
> filled with minion taps, heidelberg and spirit marionette's. Did fairly
> well the first tourney I took it to as well. You may want to consider
> packing about 4 or 5 daring the dawns. That way you can spirit marionette
> pesky vamps like, oh, Arika, drain her with Heidelburg and then use inferior
> Daring the Dawn to have her hunt unblockably. Then, ordering effects as you
> see fit, you take the 2 agg first and she burns. Yummy.
what effects are you ordering to get her to burn? she hunts, and it's
successful. she gains a blood. now, "after the action is complete"
(card text), she takes 2 agg. the first point 'wounds' her, the second
point she must burn a blood, or be burned. this isn't a choice part
here. she must burn a blood. if she has no blood to burn, then she
burns.
you'd be better off leaving one blood on her and bleeding instead of
hunting, again with an inferior daring the dawn, and playing some
action modifier that costs a blood. conditioning springs to mind. or
perhaps neutral guard. hmmm. play neutral guard first. so blocking
vampires must pay a blood to attampt to block, then play the inferior
daring the dawn. your bleed goes off and arika explodes. w00t. being
an Obeah deck in the first place means neutral guard fits in nicer.
and whatever vamp you steals that can play the daring the dawn can
play neutral guard at outferior.
salem.
A friend did that to me.. his salubri deck as my predator while i was
his prey and playing with my ventrue vote deck.. minion tap one of his
vampires to 1 blood, spirit marionette my Natasha Volfchek, heidelberg
all her blood to the drained minion of his, and Natasha forced to
hunt, then force of will bleed me with daring the dawn if I tried to
block the 3 bleed from my own damn vampire.. after 3 minions.. i just
decided not to bring any vampires out..but still died from the painful
bleed..*shiver* it was then i decided to make sure every deck of mine
has some intercepts... can't even let one action go like that..
"Jon Stahler" <!NOSPAM!sta...@ilir.uiuc.edu> wrote in message news:<LhkHa.18898$6P6.2...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
news:TN1B$a3fyb...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...
> In message <84a43beb.03061...@posting.google.com>, Phoenix
> <izaak.h...@o2.nl> writes:
> >Can you use Spirit Marionette to take control of a vampire, drain it
> >of everything it has with Heidelburg, including any blood, and then
> >bleed your prey with it?
>
> Yes.
As Timlagor pointed out, you can't drain it of *all* its blood
and then bleed your prey with it. If you do that, it'll have
to hunt instead of bleed. You can tap Heidelberg to take all
but one of its blood and then bleed your prey with it, though.
[between actions, use Heidelberg]
> >I
> >theory, I could tap Heidelburg at this point to totally drain that
> >vampire. That same question is by the way relevant with a card like
> >Temptation.
> >
> >Can I do this or is it really a broken combo?
>
> You can do it.
>
> No-one has yet managed to successfully abuse it if, indeed, it is
> abuseable.
>
> This isn't significantly different to Mind Rape or Temptation or
> similar. And - needing Salubri to pull it off - provides an obvious
> point of weakness.
It's a strong combo. One of the nice things you can do with
Spirit Marionette. As you say, Temptation + Heidelberg and
Mind Rape + Heidelberg are also nice.
Josh
at 2 stealth because i'm repulsive!
> As Timlagor pointed out, you can't drain it of *all* its blood
> and then bleed your prey with it. If you do that, it'll have
> to hunt instead of bleed. You can tap Heidelberg to take all
> but one of its blood and then bleed your prey with it, though.
Well, I know that, but that wasn't really the point. It's just that I think
it's kinda broken since I've lost two games in a row now because of the
damned HeidelBurg/Spirit Marionette combo.
Turn 1: predator throwns down Heidel
I play some master (or not) and influence some
Turn 2: predator influences out that 7 cap Salubri with OBE
I influence out one of my own 7 caps (or 8 caps or whatever. Usually bigger
than 7)
Turn 3: predator minion taps his Salubri, Spirit Marionettes my vampire
(which is at +1 stealth, which is basically the only broken thing about the
whole combo), Heidelburgs all but one blood, bleeds me with it (for 1) and
if I'm lucky my vamp didn't have fort so it isn't happening with Daring the
Dawn or some Day Operations.
Turn 3
I end up with a zero blood vamp in torpor or with some luck one with one
blood left, while my predator just gained an amount of blood equal to that
what you gain if you oust someone. Pretty crippling, no?. That's basically a
bleed for 9-some in turn three, aside from the fact that you'll be
defenseless for a while. Now imagine that you mix them up with pure
dominate/fort ventrue (which conveniently allows the Daring the Dawns too)
and you're looking at another six easy pool. And who says I can't repeat the
same trick the next turn? It isn't as devastating when you play with smaller
vamps, but most decks really need to get out a fattie first.
The point that you need Salubri to play the card is mute as they are a very
powerful clan and with just their two powercards (Spirit Marionette and
Renewed Vigor) they are a GREAT addition to ANY deck that packs fortitude or
auspex. Maybe toss in some Neutral Guard if you have the slots leftover and
it gets even nastier. Contrary to polular believe, I think the Salubri are
one of the better Bloodlines clans, since they mix so well in so many decks
without you having to devote your whole deck to it.
I suppose tournies are a lot more fast paced than my average games, and I
also suppose that it's in no way more crippling than, say, losing a vampire
to wolf claws/amaranth in turn 3, but at least I get the chance to fight
back. Intercept is very tough to come by early on, unless you play Auspex.
That's by the way also why weenie S/B is so powerful. I suppose I'll just
have to Sudden the Heidelburg or DI the stupid marionette.
I personally believe that any card where you lose control of a vampire to
someone else, even if it's for just a short while, is a very abusable card
in itself. At least Graverobbing and cards like Temptation have *some*
requirements to get it done. And Graverobbing is just a (D) action without
inherent stealth. V:TES just relies too much on those few vampires you have
around to have them just stolen away.
"DeistMutts" <psydu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a3baa2e3.03061...@posting.google.com...
> A friend did that to me.. his salubri deck as my predator while i was
> his prey and playing with my ventrue vote deck.. minion tap one of his
> vampires to 1 blood, spirit marionette my Natasha Volfchek, heidelberg
> all her blood to the drained minion of his, and Natasha forced to
> hunt, then force of will bleed me with daring the dawn if I tried to
> block the 3 bleed from my own damn vampire.. after 3 minions.. i just
> decided not to bring any vampires out..but still died from the painful
> bleed..*shiver* it was then i decided to make sure every deck of mine
> has some intercepts... can't even let one action go like that..
>
Just tap out all of your minions and then you can't be spirit marionetted.
:)
"salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:293af2cc.03061...@posting.google.com...
> "Jon Stahler" <!NOSPAM!sta...@ilir.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:<LhkHa.18898$6P6.2...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>...
> [snip]
> > I have a deck which uses this method for gaining blood back. Its
basically
> > filled with minion taps, heidelberg and spirit marionette's. Did fairly
> > well the first tourney I took it to as well. You may want to consider
> > packing about 4 or 5 daring the dawns. That way you can spirit
marionette
> > pesky vamps like, oh, Arika, drain her with Heidelburg and then use
inferior
> > Daring the Dawn to have her hunt unblockably. Then, ordering effects as
you
> > see fit, you take the 2 agg first and she burns. Yummy.
>
> what effects are you ordering to get her to burn? she hunts, and it's
> successful. she gains a blood. now, "after the action is complete"
> (card text), she takes 2 agg. the first point 'wounds' her, the second
> point she must burn a blood, or be burned. this isn't a choice part
> here. she must burn a blood. if she has no blood to burn, then she
> burns.
You can order the resolution of the action however you like, so you can make
the vampire take the blood after the completion of the action after the 2
agg is dealt, if I recall correctly. Its very similar reasoning to how
you'd order effects of a vampire with Fame taken by SM. The action
resolves, but before the minion takes the two aggravated, you send the
vampire back to its controller so they lose 3 pool. Regardless, she'd be in
torpor with no blood. Still not too shabby when you're talking about an
Inner Circle member.
> you'd be better off leaving one blood on her and bleeding instead of
> hunting, again with an inferior daring the dawn, and playing some
> action modifier that costs a blood. conditioning springs to mind. or
> perhaps neutral guard. hmmm. play neutral guard first. so blocking
> vampires must pay a blood to attampt to block, then play the inferior
> daring the dawn. your bleed goes off and arika explodes. w00t. being
> an Obeah deck in the first place means neutral guard fits in nicer.
> and whatever vamp you steals that can play the daring the dawn can
> play neutral guard at outferior.
True...might have to add a few in. I have 3, but haven't used them in the
deck as I saw limited use for my obeah monsters.
Jon Stahler wrote:
> You can order the resolution of the action however you like, so you can make
> the vampire take the blood after the completion of the action after the 2
> agg is dealt, if I recall correctly. Its very similar reasoning to how
No.
The vampire gains a blood when the hunt resolves.
The vampire takes two agg from Daring the Dawn after the action resolves, but
before the action is ended.
> you'd order effects of a vampire with Fame taken by SM. The action
> resolves, but before the minion takes the two aggravated, you send the
> vampire back to its controller so they lose 3 pool. Regardless, she'd be in
No, you'd take the 3 pool loss, since the damage is done before the action
is ended (which is, therefore, before the vampire is "sent back").
> torpor with no blood. Still not too shabby when you're talking about an
> Inner Circle member.
--
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> wrote in message
news:bcnn47$rii$1...@reader10.wxs.nl...
>
> > You can tap Heidelberg to take all
> > but one of its blood and then bleed your prey with it, though.
>
> Well, I know that, but that wasn't really the point. It's just that I think
> it's kinda broken since I've lost two games in a row now because of the
> damned HeidelBurg/Spirit Marionette combo.
Ah, I see...
> Turn 1: predator throwns down Heidel
> I play some master (or not) and influence some
> Turn 2: predator influences out that 7 cap Salubri with OBE
> I influence out one of my own 7 caps (or 8 caps or whatever. Usually bigger
> than 7)
> Turn 3: predator minion taps his Salubri, Spirit Marionettes my vampire
> (which is at +1 stealth, which is basically the only broken thing about the
> whole combo), Heidelburgs all but one blood, bleeds me with it (for 1) and
> if I'm lucky my vamp didn't have fort so it isn't happening with Daring the
> Dawn or some Day Operations.
Yes, it's a fairly devastating combo when it works perfectly.
I was able to do pretty much what you describe in the Atlanta
qualifier finals last year, which no doubt contributed a lot
to my eventually winning that game.
That said, it's really an "ideal case" sequence of events,
and it's not likely that your Salubri deck will be able to
do that every game. For one, they can't play a ton of copies
of Heidelberg unless they have some way to avoid hand-jam
when they keep drawing duplicates after the first one, so
it's not all that likely they'll get to first-turn Heidelberg
(or at least it wasn't that likely in my deck).
Having any kind of intercept - 2 ideally to beat Repulsion,
but 1 might well do it - will screw up their combo too, and
if they don't get it the first time they'll probably never
get it later on, since you can tap your vampires every turn
to make the ineligible to be Spirit Marionetted. You don't
have to be playing Auspex for this; Animalism, Obtenebration,
Chimerstry, and Necromancy can do it, as can Prince/Justicars
with Second Tradition, as can an early KRCG or London Evening
Star or Rumor Mill of your own (or an ally's). (Celerity,
Spiritus, Sanguinus, Melpominee too, but they're less likely.)
And as you say, any deck that isn't all about fatties is much
less vulnerable to this as well.
> I personally believe that any card where you lose control of a vampire to
> someone else, even if it's for just a short while, is a very abusable card
> in itself. At least Graverobbing and cards like Temptation have *some*
> requirements to get it done. And Graverobbing is just a (D) action without
> inherent stealth. V:TES just relies too much on those few vampires you have
> around to have them just stolen away.
You're quite right, stealing vampires is a hugely good effect,
possibly too good, even when it's temporary.
The Salubri are "supposed" to pay for this by being Scarce
and only having three vampires exist in the clan. They're
still pretty good though, definitely on my top tier of
Bloodlines clans.
Josh
and they're fun to play too!
;-)
> > > You can tap Heidelberg to take all
> > > but one of its blood and then bleed your prey with it, though.
> >
> > Well, I know that, but that wasn't really the point. It's just that I
think
> > it's kinda broken since I've lost two games in a row now because of the
> > damned HeidelBurg/Spirit Marionette combo.
>
> Ah, I see...
>> Yes, it's a fairly devastating combo when it works perfectly.
> I was able to do pretty much what you describe in the Atlanta
> qualifier finals last year, which no doubt contributed a lot
> to my eventually winning that game.
Don't get me wrong, this is not some "I lost a game so now I whine" thing,
though it does sound like that in retrospect. I lost countless games through
simple weenie bleeds and heavy DOM bleeds, as well as to blur/unpreventable
damage Assamite combo's, but I never felt I couldn't counter it without
devoting a part of my deck to it. This is such a case; two permanent
intercept is not that easy to come by. Now if it was just 3 blood or some
piece of equipment, then by all means, well played. Can be used quite
effectively, but is not crippling. But it's *all* you have on that vampire.
Many, many decks are built around a single vamp. A Baltimore Purge deck, for
example, any deck involving Goratrix and the list goes on. A simple Spirit
Marionette with Day operations = one useless vampire and in a some cases - a
whole deck. I'm not sure if allies can get intercept. I believe some have it
and you can give it to them with London Tabloid. But who uses that?
> That said, it's really an "ideal case" sequence of events,
> and it's not likely that your Salubri deck will be able to
> do that every game. For one, they can't play a ton of copies
> of Heidelberg unless they have some way to avoid hand-jam
> when they keep drawing duplicates after the first one, so
> it's not all that likely they'll get to first-turn Heidelberg
> (or at least it wasn't that likely in my deck).
Well, I'm probably on an unlucky streak then. It's not as if the guy in
question consistently sweeps the table. Not at all. His prey is usually
totally crippled and ousted a bit later, but it takes too long (since he
plays Ravnos with those Salubri and Ravnos are not really known for their
bleed speed), so his grandprey has time to build up. I am, however, very
curious what would happen if you toss 'em in a Dom/For Ventrue deck. If the
only working counter is outtapping, well, good luck vs a dominate bleeder...
That said, I'll think up SOME way to at least prevent it from happening so
early, as has been the case in quite a few games now (have been victim only
twice). Direct Intervention and Sudden seem the most logical solutions. I
really hate DI though, so I settle for 5 or so Suddens in my deck to get rid
of every Heidel that's being played. Or I can contest it :-)
"Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> wrote in message
news:bcns44$1vq$1...@reader11.wxs.nl...
> Well, I'm probably on an unlucky streak then. It's not as if the guy in
> question consistently sweeps the table. Not at all. His prey is usually
> totally crippled and ousted a bit later, but it takes too long (since he
> plays Ravnos with those Salubri and Ravnos are not really known for their
> bleed speed), so his grandprey has time to build up. I am, however, very
> curious what would happen if you toss 'em in a Dom/For Ventrue deck. If
the
> only working counter is outtapping, well, good luck vs a dominate
bleeder...
>
I've used a Venture Salubri deck in NYC. It did extremely well. I included
PRE bleeds in addition to DOM bleeds, because my ventrue could use both, and
it increased the chances a vampire i borrowed had a skill to pump the bleed.
Allies, heavy combat decks, ravnvos sense dep and contesting
matthias/blanche were the only thinks that gave me problems. All it takes is
one person on the table to play haven uncovered on you which your prey
should be able to convince the table to do and it resorts to a dom/pre
unblockable bleed deck which while decent really isn't any good in the super
deflection environment that is new york.
leviathan
On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Phoenix wrote:
> plays Ravnos with those Salubri and Ravnos are not really known for their
> bleed speed
No, they aren't. ;)
David Cherryholmes
Duke Radiology
P.E.T. Facility
(919) 684-7714
david.che...@duke.edu
>> Turn 1: predator throwns down Heidel
>> I play some master (or not) and influence some
>> Turn 2: predator influences out that 7 cap Salubri with OBE
>> I influence out one of my own 7 caps (or 8 caps or whatever. Usually bigger
>> than 7)
>> Turn 3: predator minion taps his Salubri, Spirit Marionettes my vampire
>> (which is at +1 stealth, which is basically the only broken thing about the
>> whole combo), Heidelburgs all but one blood, bleeds me with it (for 1) and
>> if I'm lucky my vamp didn't have fort so it isn't happening with Daring the
>> Dawn or some Day Operations.>
>
>Yes, it's a fairly devastating combo when it works perfectly.
>I was able to do pretty much what you describe in the Atlanta
>qualifier finals last year, which no doubt contributed a lot
>to my eventually winning that game.
>
>That said, it's really an "ideal case" sequence of events,
>and it's not likely that your Salubri deck will be able to
>do that every game.
Should they be able to do it in any game? While the "I win" effect isn't huge,
the "you lose" effect can be insane.
>For one, they can't play a ton of copies
>of Heidelberg unless they have some way to avoid hand-jam
>when they keep drawing duplicates after the first one, so
>it's not all that likely they'll get to first-turn Heidelberg
>(or at least it wasn't that likely in my deck).
I don't think the idea of first turn Heidel is essential. Not going to act
with a Salubri (most of the time) until turn 3. Even then, the combo is
devastating at almost any time against quite a few match ups quite often.
>Having any kind of intercept - 2 ideally to beat Repulsion,
>but 1 might well do it - will screw up their combo too, and
>if they don't get it the first time they'll probably never
>get it later on, since you can tap your vampires every turn
>to make the ineligible to be Spirit Marionetted.
But, you are well aware of: the conversion into tap bleed this countertactic
creates; the chance of Precognizant Mobility.
>You don't
>have to be playing Auspex for this; Animalism, Obtenebration,
>Chimerstry, and Necromancy can do it, as can Prince/Justicars
>with Second Tradition, as can an early KRCG or London Evening
>Star or Rumor Mill of your own (or an ally's). (Celerity,
>Spiritus, Sanguinus, Melpominee too, but they're less likely.)
Daring the Dawn on the Marionette action can stop the intercept nonsense.
Then, there's not always having the intercept in hand when the action happens.
>And as you say, any deck that isn't all about fatties is much
>less vulnerable to this as well.
This may all be ancient history, but I didn't play weenie decks for the longest
time (not interesting enough) until I played regularly with Fred and realize
that so much of the obnoxious crap in this game can be defeated by playing
weenies. It's not exactly a selling point for tolerating something that a not
hard combo hurts fatties disproportionately.
>and they're fun to play too!
I only find gaming fun when other people have fun. An element to my disconnect
with people who think screwing other people (with whatever combo, strategy,
card) is fun I guess.
cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote in message news:<20030617190003...@mb-m21.aol.com>...
>> Turn 1: predator throwns down Heidel
>> I play some master (or not) and influence some
>> Turn 2: predator influences out that 7 cap Salubri with OBE
>> I influence out one of my own 7 caps (or 8 caps or whatever.
Usually bigger
>> than 7)
>> Turn 3: predator minion taps his Salubri, Spirit Marionettes my
vampire
>> (which is at +1 stealth, which is basically the only broken thing
about the
>> whole combo), Heidelburgs all but one blood, bleeds me with it (for
1) and
>> if I'm lucky my vamp didn't have fort so it isn't happening with
Daring the
>> Dawn or some Day Operations.> Should they be able to do it in any game? While the "I win" effect isn't huge,> the "you lose" effect can be insane.
Is it really any worse than Mind Rape? Mind Rape tanks that minion
for their controller's turn; and you can Rave/Heidelburg ALL the blood
off the vampire. Not to mention they can take more actions than just
"bleed" (namely diablerie). Or hell, PTO. Which would you have? Guy
with 1 blood on him or a burned vamp?
> I don't think the idea of first turn Heidel is essential. Not going to act
> with a Salubri (most of the time) until turn 3. Even then, the combo is
> devastating at almost any time against quite a few match ups quite often.
Again, requires an untapped vamp of suitable size. And you still have
to get the Heidel by turn 3 (and if you don't draw it in your opening
hand, not taking any actions until turn 3 isn't going to help you
cycle that much).
> But, you are well aware of: the conversion into tap bleed this countertactic
> creates; the chance of Precognizant Mobility.
Precog is another moving part to the combo. And that's 2 actions
you've taken to get the effect of 1 mind rape. Yes, it does encourage
people to tap out; it's part of the reason the card's good.
> Daring the Dawn on the Marionette action can stop the intercept nonsense.
> Then, there's not always having the intercept in hand when the action happens.
Daring the Dawn puts your own guy in torpor, and in the first 3 turns,
it's very possible you won't have a guy to pull him out. Little
risky, no?
--
-Snapcase
> > Should they be able to do it in any game? While the "I win" effect
isn't huge,
> > the "you lose" effect can be insane.
Couldn't have said it better. Though not a game-winner, the combo can
single-handedly cost you the game. Keyword *can* here.
> Is it really any worse than Mind Rape? Mind Rape tanks that minion
> for their controller's turn; and you can Rave/Heidelburg ALL the blood
> off the vampire. Not to mention they can take more actions than just
> "bleed" (namely diablerie). Or hell, PTO. Which would you have? Guy
> with 1 blood on him or a burned vamp?
Yes. Mind Rape is a two-turn thing so you can prepare in advance if someone
has Heidel too. You can for example drain it with Minion Tap, or just
suicide it into your prey, at least taking something with you. Furthermore,
Mind Rape is (D) and has no inherent stealth AND can only be used on younger
vampires, which is a huge minus for the combo.
> > I don't think the idea of first turn Heidel is essential. Not going to
act
> > with a Salubri (most of the time) until turn 3. Even then, the combo is
> > devastating at almost any time against quite a few match ups quite
often.
It can, as you said be devastating late game too. Who said it isn't very
crippling (the "You Lose"-effect again) if I lose my Goratrix on the, what,
sixth turn? I will have to influence out a whole new one. That is, if you
have the aforementioned Goratrix deck (which I personally don't have).
What if there was a card that said:
DOM: (D) at +1 stealth. Choose any ready untapped minion in play. Drain it
of all but one blood and equipment and put the blood and equipemnt on a
ready vampire you control. Your prey chooses one. He or she loses one pool,
or the chosen vampire goes to torpor.
No problems too?
> Again, requires an untapped vamp of suitable size. And you still have
> to get the Heidel by turn 3 (and if you don't draw it in your opening
> hand, not taking any actions until turn 3 isn't going to help you
> cycle that much).
mute, but if you base a deck around it (very possible), you will have it by
turn 3.
[...]
> > Daring the Dawn on the Marionette action can stop the intercept
nonsense.
> > Then, there's not always having the intercept in hand when the action
happens.
> Daring the Dawn puts your own guy in torpor, and in the first 3 turns,
> it's very possible you won't have a guy to pull him out. Little
> risky, no?
With Obeah around? Why?
In the first three turns usually nobody has a lot of intercept and later on,
you can get your back back out of torpor SO easy...
izaak.h...@o2.nl writes:
>Yes. Mind Rape is a two-turn thing so you can
>prepare in advance if someone
>has Heidel too. You can for example drain
>it with Minion Tap, or just
>suicide it into your prey, at least taking
>something with you.
Your complaint was that SM can cost you a critical
vampire and shut your deck down, which still happens
here. Besides, it's not too often you've got a spare
Minion Tap lying around or a useful suicide attack
(especially considering your prey won't necessarily
be too eager to smash up that vampire - he'd rather
hurt one you'll continue to have)
>Furthermore, Mind Rape is (D) and has no inherent
>stealth AND can only be used on younger
>vampires, which is a huge minus for the combo.
Marionette can only be used by two vampires in
the game *and* is much more limited in what you
can do with the vampire (control for one bleed
action only as opposed to control for an entire
turn). A Mind Rape deck could, theoretically,
take every vampire away from you in one turn!
Besides Marionette isn't too hard to block without
Daring the Dawn or the like, and with DtD the
0 stealth is irrelevant.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
Phoenix wrote:
> Yes. Mind Rape is a two-turn thing so you can prepare in
> advance if someone
> has Heidel too. You can for example drain it with Minion Tap, or just
> suicide it into your prey, at least taking something with
> you.
Mind Rape taps the target vamp and they don't untap during their
controller's next untap phase. Tanks the vamp for your turn, their
turn, and then you steal them for your next turn. So no suicide for
you. Minion tap does work; although with Heidel, I could easily
transfer a blood back from one of my minions and have a fully
functioning stolen vamp for the turn.
> Furthermore, Mind Rape is (D)
Last I checked, so was Spirit Marionette
>and has no inherent stealth
True. I wonder if there are any vamps with DOM that have access to a
discipline that provides stealth. I'll have to look into that.
> AND can only be used on younger vampires, which is a huge minus for
> the combo.
Spirit Marionette can only be used on untapped vamps. Furthermore, when
it's stolen it can ONLY bleed, unless required to hunt.
> DOM: (D) at +1 stealth. Choose any ready untapped minion
> in play. Drain it
> of all but one blood and equipment and put the blood and
> equipemnt on a
> ready vampire you control. Your prey chooses one. He or
> she loses one pool,
> or the chosen vampire goes to torpor.
>
> No problems too?
Where to begin...
1. There are 2 vampires in the game that can play cards at OBE. I think
there's a few more that can play stuff at DOM. I'll have to check.
2. Heidelburg is required with Spirit Marionette.
3. Why is the vampire going to torpor? He's bleeding you with 1 blood,
probably for 1. You can block with a dingus and dodge. Or do you think
plowing through combat cards on your own vampire is a solid idea?
> mute, but if you base a deck around it (very possible),
> you will have it by turn 3.
How many copies do you have to include in a 90 card deck to ensure that
you have it in your opening hand? 7? 8? 9? Statisics people, feel free
to jump in. Say you got lucky and got the Barrens first turn...
Reduces that number to 6 or 7, perhaps... That's still a lot of slots to
dedicate to something that can be contested or arsoned. Sure, it's
powerful. The tradeoff is the slots you lose to make /absolutely
certain/ that you get the card you need.
>> Daring the Dawn puts your own guy in torpor, and in the
>> first 3 turns,
>> it's very possible you won't have a guy to pull him out. Little
>> risky, no?>
> With Obeah around? Why? In the first three turns usually nobody has a
> lot of intercept and later on,
> you can get your back back out of torpor SO easy...
Huh? If they were able to play enough intercept (read: +1, maybe +2) to
force you to play DtD, they just might be able to block your
Freak-Drive-and-Leave-Torpor play. Or were you planning on leaving him
there for the turn? Let me know how that pans out.
--
-Snapcase
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