Final Nights review at rpg.net

Nigel Tam has posted a review of Final Nights on rpg.net. http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_4752.html -- Derek "You should rush your predator this turn." "Why?" "Because he's not me."

In message <olr2ntsveugrdn15b...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes >Nigel Tam has posted a review of Final Nights on rpg.net. > >http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_4752.html The conclusion is probably best: "Final Nights is an excellent new expansion with only a few minor flaws. There are no "wallpaper" cards as in previous expansions but many power cards worth chasing. It shakes up the metagame without unbalancing it and breathes life into the Independent Clans. The art, is as ever, classy and professional. The cardstock is good and the layout legible. " My only real technical gripes with it are: 1) His view on the Assamites doesn't really understand that with solid S:CE defence now, there'd be almost no holes to poke through 2) He doesn't see rush/Clandestine Contract as bleed defence, and has ignored Banner of Neutrality 3) He doesn't realise quite *why* there are so many reprints in the starters (and only in the starters) -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F You scumbag, you maggot, you cheap lousy faggot B457CA213D7E6 Happy Christmas your arse, I pray God it's our last 68C3695D623D5D

> 2) He doesn't see rush/Clandestine Contract as bleed defence, Clandestine Contract is a second cousin to Contract. I'd *almost* rather save the pool and go with the unblockable Contract master. But then, neither are all that great, IMO. I'd rather use BR/Ambush or Haven. > and has ignored Banner of Neutrality Indeed a good card. But only reduces by one and you need an untapped Assamite. So you are either wasting an action or losing a card slot to reduce by 1. I'd rather use those slots for cards that do damage. I can't see this being *much* use to Assamites. > 3) He doesn't realise quite *why* there are so many reprints in the > starters (and only in the starters) Exactly how many times are Wake/.44 Magnum/Forced, etc going to be reprinted? Wake is in what? 4 (soon to be 5) sets? I will grant you that they are released in only the starters, but I believe it to be true that there are other, new, cards available only in starters as well. So in order for us to get them, we have to purchase the starters and yet 50 (exagg.) more Wakes... Sorrow --- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is a spiritual war. Our depression is our lives." - Tyler Durden

> > http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_4752.html > > where did FN shake up the metagame. the only clan that will have impact in tournys is going to be govanni, because now they can effectivly bled with seduction+call of the hungry dead and pot gives them combat defense (or offense). the clan that got most from FN are the tremere/!tremere the got two vamps they desperatly needed (aisling/hannigan) with THA/AUS and with perfect clarity a decent card against deflections. honorable metation theo (taco) bell fn failed in what it tried to achieve, the indys are still weak and the metagame is still the same! Stefan

> >> >> http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_4752.html >> >> > where did FN shake up the metagame. > the only clan that will have impact in tournys is going to be govanni, > because now they can effectivly bled with seduction+call of the hungry dead Sneak and bleed is shaking up the metagame? > and pot gives them combat defense (or offense). Ah, I see, watered-down sneak and bleed, that will still get a whupping from dedicated combat, THAT's going to "have impact in tourneys." > the clan that got most from FN are the tremere/!tremere the got two vamps > they desperatly needed (aisling/hannigan) with THA/AUS and with perfect > clarity a decent card against deflections. The clan(s) that got the MOST are the Indies, with extra mention to the FoS and the Giov, who got the vamps to make their discipline set actually playable. > honorable metation > theo (taco) bell A pittance compared to Gustav Mallenhous, who shoves the !Ventrue vote deck up a notch all by himself. Not to mention Creepshow Casino, that pushes ALL vote decks that have trouble with stealth up a notch. Not to mention...well, anyway. And, Theo Bell IS pretty cool, I agree! > fn failed in what it tried to achieve, the indys are still weak and the > metagame is still the same! So while you're at it, say: "LSJ, Todd Bannister, you suck." Also be sure to clarify your statement with: "This game is so simple a child could figure it out, and the best decks you can make with Final Nights cards have already been tried and failed." I'm sorry you haven't had much success with your Final Nights cards yet; I'm having a blast, and I'm looking forward to taking my Giovanni to a tournament, and don't look forward to the Ravnos to my left, the Followers of Set to my right, and the Assamites anywhere but cross table. I'd really hope you'd give them a better "go" and some time to develop before writing off the whole set (not to mention indirectly insulting the designers). -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta

On Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:35:11 +0200, "Stefan Ferenci" <a950...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote: >where did FN shake up the metagame. Let's see. The Setites can now rock your fr0 pretty damn hard with OBF/PRE voters, vampire-grabbiness, or any of a number of tactics. They can also actually SURVIVE with judicious use of Hesha and Crowbar Towers, where previously they would just get bled out quietly. The Ravnos can turn the entire table into a slushy mess with a finger in every pie, throwing intercept-reduction everywhere. They also have plenty of small and fill-in vamps available now to supplement their ALREADY excellent vampire selection. The Assamites are tricky, as always, but they can now pool-gain in magnificent form via Clandestine Contract/Provision of the Silsila, and have a number of excellent mid-range vampires to fix their own TERRIBLE vampire selection. And for those of you who keep trying to build Rush decks with them, realize that assassins do NOT jump on their enemies in a big mob and beat on them. Assassins terminate selected individuals. Your Assamite decks will run better for it. >the only clan that will have impact in tournys is going to be govanni, >because now they can effectivly bled with seduction+call of the hungry dead >and pot gives them combat defense (or offense). And to consider that the Giovanni are only bleeders and punchers is to totally ignore their most powerful aspect, the Necromancy and ash-heap manipulation. >the clan that got most from FN are the tremere/!tremere the got two vamps >they desperatly needed (aisling/hannigan) with THA/AUS and with perfect >clarity a decent card against deflections. Haakon is a fearsome Gangrel OR !Gangrel, as needed. Julian Sanders is yet ANOTHER excellent thug in the Brujah/!Brujah stable of mid-rangers. Jan Pieterzoon is an ultimate tool for agitation in a deck that benefits from nothing but. Calebros makes me more afraid than ever of the Nossie vote deck. Christanius' special is monstrous. Melisande is a truly vicious addition to !Toreador combat-land. Gustav Mallenhous fills in the final gap in the !Ventrue "I pass this 1 to 0" vote deck. Have you really had a good look at most of the set yet? >honorable metation >theo (taco) bell > >fn failed in what it tried to achieve, the indys are still weak and the >metagame is still the same! Fortunately, this shortsighted viewpoint is easy to soundly refute. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <tn306ab...@corp.supernews.com>, Sorrow <cbo...@apdi.net> writes >> 3) He doesn't realise quite *why* there are so many reprints in the >> starters (and only in the starters) > >Exactly how many times are Wake/.44 Magnum/Forced, etc going to >be reprinted? It's useful with Wake, given the errata, and the idea is for new players to be able to get hold of cards easily. Assuming we don't get a base set reprint in, say, Q4 2002 (the earliest I'd *want* something after Bloodlines), I wouldn't be reprinting them in that in large numbers. Say it was a Black Hand Sabbat completion type thing (picking an entirely random idea), I might put one or two in any starters, but no more really. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:09:40 -0500, "Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> wrote: >> 2) He doesn't see rush/Clandestine Contract as bleed defence, > >Clandestine Contract is a second cousin to Contract. I'd *almost* >rather save the pool and go with the unblockable Contract master. >But then, neither are all that great, IMO. I'd rather use BR/Ambush >or Haven. If the Assamites decide to put stealth on an action, it will usually get through. Clandestine Contract is at +1 stealth inherently, and it isn't that hard to toss Faceless Night/Cloak in an Assamite deck, or even Forgotten Labyrinth if you want to waste the blood. Besides, you're asking people to block an action that might get them dead, remember? They aren't going to chase THAT hard. Contracts also provide an effectively-permanent Rush action, something that I remember you think is terribly broken on War Party. =) It enables the use of Khabar: Honor, and can be burned eventually with Provision of Silly Walks for a reload. There are definite uses to Contracts. (idle exercise for the interested Assamite reader: why do I choose Faceless Night instead of Lost in Crowds, even though 11 out of 15 Assamites who satisfy CC's conditions have OBF?) >> 3) He doesn't realise quite *why* there are so many reprints in the >> starters (and only in the starters) > >Exactly how many times are Wake/.44 Magnum/Forced, etc going to >be reprinted? Wake is in what? 4 (soon to be 5) sets? I will grant you >that they are released in only the starters, but I believe it to be true >there are other, new, cards available only in starters as well. So in order >for us to get them, we have to purchase the starters and yet 50 (exagg.) >more Wakes... Well, would you rather the starters have ABSOLUTELY NO untap in them whatsoever? Remember, the starters are supposed to be playable... not tournament-competitive, but PLAYABLE. And if you don't release Wake in the boosters as well, then you're assuming that someone has access to Sabbat War or another previous expansion, which is FAR from a guarantee... especially since we want new players. Some cards are general-utility, and it's NEVER bad to have dozens of them. Wake is one such card. (Besides, most of my Wakes are Jyhad-backed. I'm rather enjoying filling up the holes in my V:TES-backed collection from the starter reprints.) [ quoted text not captured ]

> where did FN shake up the metagame. > the only clan that will have impact in tournys is going to be govanni, No offense to Pat, but the Giovanni have the same impact as the tremere, bleed with tricks. As for the others still sucking, you did note that Dave got to the finals of the Qualifier Tournement at Gencon with a Assamite deck, and did well in the final (he wasn't over run by the bleed deck behind him and was not irrelevant the rest of the game) The new vamps and new toys really pushed that deck up a notch. Cladstine contract is a beating. I know that the ravnos and settites will have an impact, although people didn't play them as much at Gencon, but Ravnos bleed is certianly good (kind of a MIRROR IMAGE of the gangrel deck type) And CHI gives them nice defence to boot. I had a few votes tossed down to zero stealth in the Shadow Twin tournment. Setties have a harder time, because the meta game is somewhat anti weenie now, but I do know that someone's Sheldon was corrupted away in pickup games, and Ethan's temptation deck beat all over me. Cameron

In message <a1e26d99.01080...@posting.google.com>, Cameron <orcao...@hotmail.com> writes >No offense to Pat, but the Giovanni have the same impact as the >tremere, bleed with tricks. The thing is, the tricks come from: Potence - which generally outpaces Thaumaturgy Necromancy - which provides some very useful "weird" stuff Allies/retainers - a slew of interesting things to do There are also more workable "trick" decks to be made around the Giovanni than the Tremere, in my estimation. The "weird" cards give some fun things to do. Bleed wise, they have Dominate. The Tremere do have Auspex for Pulse, but that's not usually a big thing. The same Dominate tricks can be done, but Necromancy-wise they have Spectral Divination (+1 stealth) and Call of the Hungry Dead (cancel a blocker) which provide more bite bleed wise. Brigette is also a potentially powerful ally, giving the flexibility of getting just one big action through, or multiple via Shroud Mastery. Felix is also neat. Add Compel the Spirit and Vagabond Mystic for +2 fun. They also have some blood gain via Acquired Ventrue Assets. A *good* bruise and bleed Giovanni deck should, in my estimation, be able to make much more serious headway than a comparable Tremere deck. Of course, the Tremere deck has much more intercept trickery which is a very different area of play. [ quoted text not captured ]

>> where did FN shake up the metagame. >> the only clan that will have impact in tournys is going to be govanni, > > No offense to Pat, I take OFFENSE!! =) > but the Giovanni have the same impact as the > tremere, bleed with tricks. Do what? I don't see this at all. Two clans with Dominate, and a combat discipline. 3rd discipline for Tremere is Auspex, straight up intercept. 3rd discipline for the Giovanni is Necromancy; which gives stealth (something Tremere bleed does NOT have), very light intercept, and "tricks." Like, lots and lots and lots more tricks than the Tremere. But with much less intercept. You lost me, there, Cameron. You're gonna have to expand on that a bit. I mean, a better analogy, I would think like the Lasombra, except that I've already pointed out, Obtenebration is a much stronger "support" discipline that Necromancy, but Necromancy *does* more, and the two clans are quite different in play. http://www.thelasombra.com/newsletter/giovanni_july_2001.htm Ok, that aside... > As for the others still sucking, you did > note that Dave got to the finals of the Qualifier Tournement at Gencon > with a Assamite deck, and did well in the final (he wasn't over run by > the bleed deck behind him and was not irrelevant the rest of the game) > The new vamps and new toys really pushed that deck up a notch. > Cladstine contract is a beating. The "+1 stealth rush action that also drops an unremovable (albeit private) Haven Uncovered." 1 pool is a damn bargain, at that! > I know that the ravnos and settites will have an impact, although > people didn't play them as much at Gencon, but Ravnos bleed is > certianly good (kind of a MIRROR IMAGE of the gangrel deck type) And > CHI gives them nice defence to boot. I'm really itching to play some Ravnos. Draba, Mirror Image and Red Herring alone make me drool. Course, I'm also scared of this Illusory Amaranth deck mentioned elsewhere. They've got the vamps and blood gain to pull it off, now. > I had a few votes tossed down to > zero stealth in the Shadow Twin tournment. Setties have a harder > time, because the meta game is somewhat anti weenie now, but I do know > that someone's Sheldon was corrupted away in pickup games, and Ethan's > temptation deck beat all over me. The Setites are the strongest "metagame shakeup" that came out of it. They've got OBF, so you'd better have *dedicated* intercept to stop them, and all that vote, bleed, and combat defense is toilet paper in your hand when they come'a'stealing. Woohoo! I love that the Final Nights are finally here! Dunno why all those Sabbat were so worried about it! =) [ quoted text not captured ]

> In message <a1e26d99.01080...@posting.google.com>, Cameron > <orcao...@hotmail.com> writes >> No offense to Pat, but the Giovanni have the same impact as the >> tremere, bleed with tricks. > > The thing is, the tricks come from: > > Potence - which generally outpaces Thaumaturgy Well, moreso if it's weenies, or backed up with Celerity. Remember, only clan in the GAME with no non-strike maneuver on an in-clan discipline. > Necromancy - which provides some very useful "weird" stuff With some good, if minor, metagame shakeups. Who'd think you'd need to protect your *ashheap*, for Pete's sake? "Hello, mind if I borrow a cup of sugar? Ivory Bow? Garou? Lazvernutz?" > There are also more workable "trick" decks to be made around the > Giovanni than the Tremere, in my estimation. The "weird" cards give > some fun things to do. Fun, and occasionally effective. Dominate gives you the most bang for your buck bleeding, and Obedience is least card intensive way to avoid combat...leaves you room for a warehouse-full of Shambling Hordes... > Bleed wise, they have Dominate. The Tremere do have Auspex for Pulse, > but that's not usually a big thing. The same Dominate tricks can be > done, but Necromancy-wise they have Spectral Divination (+1 stealth) and > Call of the Hungry Dead (cancel a blocker) which provide more bite bleed > wise. ...on TOP of Seduction, which becomes exponentially more powerful with 1 stealth and the option to cancel the next guy who musters up 1 intercept... > They also have some blood gain via Acquired Ventrue Assets. Not to mention Rave and Compel the Spirit, and the ever-famous ('round these parts, anyway) Leonardo. Not to mention the huge blood SAVED with the Path. > A *good* bruise and bleed Giovanni deck should, in my estimation, be > able to make much more serious headway than a comparable Tremere deck. This I'll be first to say is not my specialty. I like Potence as a surprise punchback, but as a deck focus, it bores me. And, really, they still don't have lots of cheap DOM/POT guys, so I think it's HARD to make a "*good* bruise and bleed Giovanni deck." The complete lack of maneuvers and damage prevention also hamstrings them in anything but a Majestic environment. I'd be curious to see it done well, though (hint, hint =). > Of course, the Tremere deck has much more intercept trickery which is a > very different area of play. Not to mention their perfectly, no, telepathically, clear tracking of their prey. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <B797A7D6.647B%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>, Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> writes >3rd discipline for the Giovanni is Necromancy; which gives >stealth (something Tremere bleed does NOT have) The old Dominate Kine/Bonding trick is a standard possibility. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <B797AB27.647D%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>, Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> writes >> A *good* bruise and bleed Giovanni deck should, in my estimation, be >> able to make much more serious headway than a comparable Tremere deck. > > This I'll be first to say is not my specialty. I like Potence as a >surprise punchback, but as a deck focus, it bores me. And, really, they >still don't have lots of cheap DOM/POT guys, so I think it's HARD to make a >"*good* bruise and bleed Giovanni deck." The complete lack of maneuvers and >damage prevention also hamstrings them in anything but a Majestic >environment. > I'd be curious to see it done well, though (hint, hint =). Pfeh. You want a good deck out of me? [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio news:4wt+hEol...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > In message <olr2ntsveugrdn15b...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray > <lor...@yahoo.com> writes > >Nigel Tam has posted a review of Final Nights on rpg.net. > > > >http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_4752.html > > The conclusion is probably best: > > "Final Nights is an excellent new expansion with only a few minor flaws. > There are no "wallpaper" cards Ouch......did he got some Tortured Confessions? > as in previous expansions but many power > cards worth chasing. It shakes up the metagame without unbalancing it > and breathes life into the Independent Clans. The art, is as ever, > classy and professional. Sure, but it's kinda of monotone 5-6 artist works. Fine, but monotone. The cardstock is good and the layout legible. " > He, with glasses, maybe, Have a look at Fata Amria, Week of nightmare or to the name of Regina Giovanni...... for example....... Anyway, FN is good. AEmilianus [ quoted text not captured ]

Stefan Ferenci wrote: > fn failed in what it tried to achieve, the indys are still weak and the > metagame is still the same! > Uhm, I took 3 out of 5 VPs with an Assimite Starter deck playing against 2 starters decks and 2 constructed decks. Probably a good thing for the opposition that the Assimites suck. heheh Raille

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > The thing is, the tricks come from: > > Potence - which generally outpaces Thaumaturgy > Necromancy - which provides some very useful "weird" stuff > Allies/retainers - a slew of interesting things to do You forgot one, James. The tricks also come from the Wonder Twins, Uriah Winter and Vasilis. With a lot more Giovanni to play with, I'm going to have to revisit the Trojan Horse deck again. Regards, Noal

"Tetragrammaton" wrote: >> "Final Nights is an excellent new expansion with only a few minor flaws. >> There are no "wallpaper" cards > > Ouch......did he got some Tortured Confessions? *sighs* Tortured Confessions is _not_ a wallpaper card. I can think of some decks that it would fit in nicely...say the old Dawn Op/Skin of Night/Weather Control deck. Since they're going to torpor anyway, I play TC to see if they have a Deflection in their hand to block the next bleed and TC certainly doesn't prevent me from cleaning up afterward with Muaziz. Real Wallpaper cards are those that belong in no decks at all, like Eyes of the Dead and Disguised Weapon. Actually...strike that. I'm going to use Disguised Weapon in my Setite Wooden Stake and Meat Hook rush combat deck. Regards, Noal

> >Clandestine Contract is a second cousin to Contract. I'd *almost* > >rather save the pool and go with the unblockable Contract master. > >But then, neither are all that great, IMO. I'd rather use BR/Ambush > >or Haven. > If the Assamites decide to put stealth on an action, it will usually get > through. Clandestine Contract is at +1 stealth inherently, and it isn't > that hard to toss Faceless Night/Cloak in an Assamite deck, or even > Forgotten Labyrinth if you want to waste the blood. Why waste card slots w/stealth? For every stealth card in your deck that's one less combat card you could be effectively using. > Besides, you're asking people to block an action that might get them > dead, remember? They aren't going to chase THAT hard. Ok. You have a choice. Block a card that might result in your vamp getting put you into torpor once or not blocking a card that will stay there forever and a day and will allow the acting Assamite to come put the vamp back into torpor after it's been rescued. I admit it, really tough call. > Contracts also provide an effectively-permanent Rush action, something > that I remember you think is terribly broken on War Party. =) Contract = Christoph has no problems with War Party/Blood Hunt = Christoph has major problems with. Why? Because Contract grants only one Asssamite permanent rush while WP/BH grants *every vampire on the table* permanent rush. Plus, while it is rare to see, you _can_ burn a contract with "Violation of Trust". The is absolutely 100% no way that you can burn a WP/BH. Period. > It enables the use of Khabar: Honor, and can be burned eventually with > Provision of Silly Walks for a reload. There are definite uses to Contracts. I never said there were no uses. I just said I'd rather use BR/Ambush or Haven. K:H and Provision require that the opposing minion have a contract on them. The Contract master could be (and is a great target/candidate for) Sudden'd and the Clandestine Contract can be blocked. So much for the K:H and PoS that is clogging up your hand. > (idle exercise for the interested Assamite reader: why do I choose > Faceless Night instead of Lost in Crowds, even though 11 out of 15 > Assamites who satisfy CC's conditions have OBF?) Umm, would be blockers get tapped? > >Exactly how many times are Wake/.44 Magnum/Forced, etc going to > >be reprinted? Wake is in what? 4 (soon to be 5) sets? I will grant you > >that they are released in only the starters, but I believe it to be true > >there are other, new, cards available only in starters as well. So in order > >for us to get them, we have to purchase the starters and yet 50 (exagg.) > >more Wakes... > Well, would you rather the starters have ABSOLUTELY NO untap in them > whatsoever? Or perhaps a different kind of untap? > Remember, the starters are supposed to be playable... not tournament- > competitive, but PLAYABLE. Understood. > And if you don't release Wake in the boosters as well, then you're assuming > that someone has access to Sabbat War or another previous expansion, > which is FAR from a guarantee... especially since we want new players. Agreed. However, if they are going to reprint cards that were reprinted in the 23 prevous expansions, make it so that there aren't new cards that are only obtainable in the starters. > Some cards are general-utility, and it's NEVER bad to have dozens of > them. Wake is one such card. I have waay, waaaaay too many. I definitely do not need waay, waaaaay too many more. > (Besides, most of my Wakes are Jyhad-backed. I'm rather enjoying > filling up the holes in my V:TES-backed collection from the starter > reprints.) Lemme know what V:tes backed cards you need, especially if they are commons. I'll be more than happy to send some your way. Sorrow --- I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am anymore |-------------------------------- I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...? anymore | you never seen anyone try to I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Sure, but it's kinda of monotone 5-6 artist works. > Fine, but monotone. Indeed. WW definitely seems to have a hard on for Christopher Shy. It used to be I really disliked this artist's work. Then, from viewing some of his stuff on various websites, I realized that it is only the art on the cards that I do not like. I wish they could have used more of his better pieces for the cards. Sorrow --- "Just once I'd like a childhood memory I don't have to repress." - Malcolm

On 9 Aug 2001 06:13:55 -0700, dhar...@my-deja.com (Noal McDonald) wrote: >Real Wallpaper cards are those that belong in no decks at all, like >Eyes of the Dead and Disguised Weapon. Actually...strike that. I'm >going to use Disguised Weapon in my Setite Wooden Stake and Meat Hook >rush combat deck. I actually have quite a few Disguised Weapon decks... while it's not the ONLY way I'll consider getting a weapon, it's certainly one of my first options when wanting to make use of a weapon. "OK, which clans can pull this out of their watch, so I don't have to get yet another equip action blocked?" =) [ quoted text not captured ]

"Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:Tdwc7.13$bd.1...@newshog.newsread.com: >> If the Assamites decide to put stealth on an action, it will usually >> get through. Clandestine Contract is at +1 stealth inherently, and >> it isn't that hard to toss Faceless Night/Cloak in an Assamite deck, >> or even Forgotten Labyrinth if you want to waste the blood. > > Why waste card slots w/stealth? For every stealth card in your deck > that's one less combat card you could be effectively using. Why keep trying to make an Assamite Rush deck? It's not the best way to make the clan work. Something else, that hopefully other people will also read: Potence Rush decks have an enormous advantage over any other kind of deck, and it is this advantage which makes them actually work. There are MULTIPLE clans with Potence, which means that you can get MULTIPLE vampires at 4-cap and under with the disciplines you need. This makes for a good Rush deck, as "everyone jump on Jost!" is now a functional strategy. There is only one clan with Quietus. It's no wonder you can't make a weenie Assamite Rush deck that works just like a weenie Potence rush deck; there aren't the vampires to do it. Once you start getting into bigger vamps and restricting yourself to a single clan's vampires, then you start having to work a little differently... no more is it enough to just put 70 combat cards in a deck and blow away everyone, because you're no longer at an action advantage compared to everyone else. > Ok. You have a choice. Block a card that might result in your vamp > getting put you into torpor once or not blocking a card that will stay > there forever and a day and will allow the acting Assamite to come > put the vamp back into torpor after it's been rescued. > I admit it, really tough call. Uh-huh. Except that if you're going to Minion Tap/Contract/Provision, then you probably picked your prey's WEAKEST vampire to put the Contract on. Or at least I certainly did, because they're the easiest to put into torpor. So what happens is, you aim at a tapped Delilah Easton with the Contract, and they have the choice of blocking with their untapped, freshly influenced Jost Werner, or letting me vaporize Delilah. Messy, eh? If I intend a Contract to stay around forever, I will surely use plenty of stealth to make it happen, because I definitely don't want to piss around with Master phase actions. Those are needed for Blood Dolls. > Contract = Christoph has no problems with > War Party/Blood Hunt = Christoph has major problems with. > > Why? Because Contract grants only one Asssamite permanent rush > while WP/BH grants *every vampire on the table* permanent rush. In practice, you still end up screwed if the guy with the Contract hits torpor; once he's gone, he's likely to stay gone. It's just a bit tougher to put him there with a Contract. > Plus, while it is rare to see, you _can_ burn a contract with > "Violation of Trust". The is absolutely 100% no way that you can burn > a WP/BH. Period. (shrug) Christoph is going to have to show me a broken deck to ever convince me about WP/BH, though. I've got a weenie horde with Brass Knuckles and Lucky Blows backed by Gratiano, and while it's fun, it turns out to hardly be broken; every time you Tribute, your guys can't be kicking anyone's ass. With no combat decks on the table, your parties might as well be invite-only for your guys. > I never said there were no uses. I just said I'd rather use BR/Ambush > or Haven. K:H and Provision require that the opposing minion have a > contract on them. The Contract master could be (and is a great > target/candidate for) Sudden'd and the Clandestine Contract can be > blocked. So much for the K:H and PoS that is clogging up your hand. Hence, my suggestion to use stealth. You talk about Contracts being blocked and Suddened; a Haven is just as much a candidate for a Sudden. Bum's Rush and Ambush at 0 stealth merely guarantee that you're in combat with SOMEONE, as anyone with any sense will sacrifice a weenie, or select the person who CAN escape combat. Clandestine Contract requires a minimum of +1 intercept, and more if you use stealth. Sometimes it's not just killing vamps, it's killing the RIGHT vamp. >> (idle exercise for the interested Assamite reader: why do I choose >> Faceless Night instead of Lost in Crowds, even though 11 out of 15 >> Assamites who satisfy CC's conditions have OBF?) > > Umm, would be blockers get tapped? And that's better than +2 stealth because? :P (i'm doing it this way to poke the NG itself into thinking about just -how- to play the Assamites, instead of randomly bitching that they can't put 70 combat cards in a deck and kill everything and win.) >> >as well. So in order for us to get them, we have to purchase the >> >starters and yet 50 (exagg.) more Wakes... >> Well, would you rather the starters have ABSOLUTELY NO untap in them >> whatsoever? > > Or perhaps a different kind of untap? What kind of untap is available to the Assamites, Giovanni, or Setites that ISN'T Wake or Forced Awakening? Answer: none, unless you count Majesty's superior. So, it's Wake/FA for these guys, or nothing. >> And if you don't release Wake in the boosters as well, then you're >> assuming that someone has access to Sabbat War or another previous >> expansion, which is FAR from a guarantee... especially since we want >> new players. > > Agreed. However, if they are going to reprint cards that were > reprinted in the > 23 prevous expansions, make it so that there aren't new cards that are > only obtainable in the starters. *shrug* I can use another Temptation, myself. I hate to point this out, but I fall on the HIGH side of card-owners; I generally have more than other people. Most players, especially those that didn't get Ancient Hearts or only got a few boosters of it, are going to be perfectly content with the idea of getting some reprints and buying a couple extra starters for it. Those will mostly be new players. We still need new players. If we ever quit getting new players, the game will truly be dead. > I have waay, waaaaay too many. I definitely do not need waay, waaaaay > too many more. but you're in the high 2% of card-owners. :) The other 98% of us don't mind getting some extra uncommons/commons. >> (Besides, most of my Wakes are Jyhad-backed. I'm rather enjoying >> filling up the holes in my V:TES-backed collection from the starter >> reprints.) > > Lemme know what V:tes backed cards you need, especially if they are > commons. I'll be more than happy to send some your way. Ugh. You're going to make me sort my collection, aren't you? :P I just DID that two months ago... *sigh*

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1245nt830a7oa5of1...@4ax.com... > On 9 Aug 2001 06:13:55 -0700, dhar...@my-deja.com (Noal McDonald) > wrote: > > >Real Wallpaper cards are those that belong in no decks at all, like > >Eyes of the Dead and Disguised Weapon. Actually...strike that. I'm > >going to use Disguised Weapon in my Setite Wooden Stake and Meat Hook > >rush combat deck. > > I actually have quite a few Disguised Weapon decks... while it's not the > ONLY way I'll consider getting a weapon, it's certainly one of my first > options when wanting to make use of a weapon. "OK, which clans can pull > this out of their watch, so I don't have to get yet another equip action > blocked?" =) > > -- Derek I agree. I hate wasting actions on equipping, even if I'm not expecting them blocked. So if i have a deck and want weapons it's either a deck with Freak Drive, Disguised Weapons, or Horrid Reality. Matt

Noal McDonald wrote: > Real Wallpaper cards are those that belong in no decks at all, like > Eyes of the Dead and Disguised Weapon. Actually...strike that. I'm > going to use Disguised Weapon in my Setite Wooden Stake and Meat Hook > rush combat deck. > Now you HAVE to find some use for Eyes of the Dead, maybe in combination with the Political struggle Monacada goes to torpor gain votes dead. Raille

Raille wrote: > Now you HAVE to find some use for Eyes of the Dead, maybe in combination > with the Political struggle Monacada goes to torpor gain votes dead. dead should actually be deck.

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:52b3ntgd8gsqpdku1...@4ax.com... > On Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:35:11 +0200, "Stefan Ferenci" > <a950...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote: > > >where did FN shake up the metagame. > > Let's see. The Setites can now rock your fr0 pretty damn hard with > OBF/PRE voters, vampire-grabbiness, or any of a number of tactics. They > can also actually SURVIVE with judicious use of Hesha and Crowbar > Towers, where previously they would just get bled out quietly. > not to mention the Free States Rant - temptation combo with Khay'tall. Problem is where do get 10+ Temptations? Someone in my playgroup played this deck (with proxies, of course) and managed to sweep TWICE. Khay'tall, Snake of Eden: 9, aus DOM OBF PRE SER, Followers of Set Independent. Khay'tall gets +1 stealth on political actions. Vampires with corruption counters cannot cast votes against any referendums called by Khay'tall. Don't forget to Corrupt everyone who has votes and use Khay'tall's DOM for bounce. Call FSR with Khaytall via Charming lobby. Your smaller minions throw Temptations everywhere. Use the 'automatic' vote to damage your prey, change seats,...... Try to get your Prey's vamps in a Temptation lock, ie, they hunt on their owner's turn, they bleed (or something similar to lose one blood) on yours. I have to side with Stefan here, FN totally didn't shake up the metagame. NOT Jeroen

In message <hgwc7.16$bd.1...@newshog.newsread.com>, Sorrow <jcb...@yahoo.com> writes >> Sure, but it's kinda of monotone 5-6 artist works. >> Fine, but monotone. > >Indeed. WW definitely seems to have a hard on for Christopher >Shy. It used to be I really disliked this artist's work. I have no problem with Christoper Shy really. I really like his work on Gillespi Giovanni and Andrea Giovanni which manage to really capture how I picture the Giovanni. And his work on eyes is really good. He suffers from same-iness, though. Though for me the best vampire artwork in the set comes from Lawrence Snelly, even if it is photo-shopped type stuff. A few Snelly Giovanni and Ravnos would have been excellent, IMO. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <Tdwc7.13$bd.1...@newshog.newsread.com>, Sorrow <jcb...@yahoo.com> writes >Why waste card slots w/stealth? Well, for one thing: - Assamites getting a few bleeds through is good. They're not weenie rush capable really, so removing significant defence and tapping a few bleeds through is quite useful. - Assamites getting a few bleeds through is significant for Alamut. And even having two or three votes on the table can be *hugely* significant. Out of interest, what was the GenCon metagame like vote-wise? The UK used to have fairly high votes - especially with Legacy of Pander - but seems to be a *lot* closer these days. >For every stealth card in your deck >that's one less combat card you could be effectively using. And the Lord did smile upon his Children, and gave them Swallowed by the Night. OBF gives you Behind You and Swallowed by the Night, as well as flexibility with Disguised Weapon. Spying Mission, too. I'm with Derek on this one. Just annihilating your prey, like weenie pot/cel can do, isn't the only or best option. Target the key vampires - and a little stealth helps you make sure of that - especially useful if you find an intercept deck as your prey and you just can't get those bleeds through. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <9ku7ld$ro4$1...@nntp1-cm.news.eni.net>, Matt Latham <mla...@diamondtoolmfg.com> writes >I agree. I hate wasting actions on equipping, even if I'm not expecting them >blocked. Pier 13 is your friend. Add Rave and Heidelberg for Equipment-A-Go-Go. [ quoted text not captured ]

>> Real Wallpaper cards are those that belong in no decks at all, like >> Eyes of the Dead and Disguised Weapon. Actually...strike that. I'm >> going to use Disguised Weapon in my Setite Wooden Stake and Meat Hook >> rush combat deck. > > I actually have quite a few Disguised Weapon decks... Pardon me. I meant Concealed Weapon, not Disguised Weapon. Regards, Noal

> >> And if you don't release Wake in the boosters as well, then you're > >> assuming that someone has access to Sabbat War or another previous > >> expansion, which is FAR from a guarantee... especially since we want > >> new players. > > > > Agreed. However, if they are going to reprint cards that were > > reprinted in the > > 23 prevous expansions, make it so that there aren't new cards that are > > only obtainable in the starters. > > *shrug* I can use another Temptation, myself. I hate to point this out, > but I fall on the HIGH side of card-owners; I generally have more than > other people. Most players, especially those that didn't get Ancient > Hearts or only got a few boosters of it, are going to be perfectly content > with the idea of getting some reprints and buying a couple extra starters > for it. Those will mostly be new players. > > We still need new players. If we ever quit getting new players, the game > will truly be dead. > > > I have waay, waaaaay too many. I definitely do not need waay, waaaaay > > too many more. > > but you're in the high 2% of card-owners. :) The other 98% of us don't > mind getting some extra uncommons/commons. > > > Lemme know what V:tes backed cards you need, especially if they are > > commons. I'll be more than happy to send some your way. You can always do what I do, give your extra copies to NEW players. "The first ones always free" If they show up to a tournament and people hand them stacks of usefull cards, there more likely to show up again. Especially when they also recieve prize support after the tournament. Usally me and most of the other old timers will also donate extra prize support to entice newbies. If I give away five or six extra Wake's it won't effect me at all, and a new player will have the oppertunity to start building decks. Down the road, they may return the favour, or do the same. Pc.

Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message news:<B797A7D6.647B%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>... > >> where did FN shake up the metagame. > >> the only clan that will have impact in tournys is going to be govanni, > > > > No offense to Pat, > > I take OFFENSE!! =) > > > but the Giovanni have the same impact as the > > tremere, bleed with tricks. > > Do what? I don't see this at all. Two clans with Dominate, and a > combat discipline. 3rd discipline for Tremere is Auspex, straight up > intercept. 3rd discipline for the Giovanni is Necromancy; which gives > stealth (something Tremere bleed does NOT have), very light intercept, and > "tricks." Like, lots and lots and lots more tricks than the Tremere. But > with much less intercept. > You lost me, there, Cameron. You're gonna have to expand on that a bit. > > I mean, a better analogy, I would think like the Lasombra, except that > I've already pointed out, Obtenebration is a much stronger "support" > discipline that Necromancy, but Necromancy *does* more, and the two clans > are quite different in play. The bruise/bleed aspect of it is what I was thinking about (having face Xian's tre/!tre deck 3 times at Gencon). Both clans can get light stealth (bonding, Kine Dom, plus the Nec actions) both have (D) actions for damage (Jar being better, but...) Giovanni have extra stealth, Tremere have better bruise, and Perfect Clarity to kill bounce. I'm not saying they're the same decks, but the main reason people seemed to be playing Giovanni in the Shadow Twin was for bleed with light stealth and tricks. Xian's deck was light on stealth (At none) but had some tricks in Magic of the Smith, and PC. I know that Giovanni have more tricks than the Tremere (oh do I know... matt's used all of them and then a few more.) but they weren't being super tricky on Saturday. The meat of my responce (and thinking) was towards the "the other indys still suck" part of his message. Like I said, no offence ment Pat. Cameron

In message <a1e26d99.0108...@posting.google.com>, Cameron <orcao...@hotmail.com> writes >The bruise/bleed aspect of it is what I was thinking about (having >face Xian's tre/!tre deck 3 times at Gencon). > >Both clans can get light stealth (bonding, Kine Dom, plus the Nec >actions) Necromancy/Dominate getting to +3 stealth *and* a block cancellation is "light"? >Giovanni have extra stealth, Tremere have better bruise, How are you justifying the Tremere having better bruise? It's either blood intensive (Shotgun etc.), requires second round and is vulnerable to S:CE/Dodge etc. By contrast, the Giovanni's works first round, for free. >Xian's deck was >light on stealth (At none) but had some tricks in Magic of the Smith, >and PC. I know that Giovanni have more tricks than the Tremere (oh do >I know... matt's used all of them and then a few more.) but they >weren't being super tricky on Saturday. It's going to take a while for everyone to synthesize all of Final Nights. Especially remember that we've still got a lot of potentially unexploited assets still in Sabbat War, because of the brief time available. People have to adjust to the cards. From where I stand, a lot of people want to exploit Spectral Divination, Call of the Hungry Dead, Bonding, Dominate Kine, Seduction, The Sleeping Mind type combinations but haven't actually done so (accumulating cards, no chance, whatever), yet. Potence Rush/Daemonic Possession/Graverobbing/Spectral Divination/Call of the Hungry Dead also strikes me as a potentially powerful set of cards to include in a deck. [ quoted text not captured ]

> In message <a1e26d99.0108...@posting.google.com>, Cameron > <orcao...@hotmail.com> writes >> The bruise/bleed aspect of it is what I was thinking about (having >> face Xian's tre/!tre deck 3 times at Gencon). >> >> Both clans can get light stealth (bonding, Kine Dom, plus the Nec >> actions) > > Necromancy/Dominate getting to +3 stealth *and* a block cancellation is > "light"? It's awfully expensive, though. 1 or 2 Kine Dominance in any Giovanni bleed deck is a good idea, but paying 4 blood for that kind of stealth on a bleed of 3? >> Giovanni have extra stealth, Tremere have better bruise, > > How are you justifying the Tremere having better bruise? It's either > blood intensive (Shotgun etc.), requires second round and is vulnerable > to S:CE/Dodge etc. > > By contrast, the Giovanni's works first round, for free. But is painfully shut down by maneuvers. Yeah, I know, pack the Fake Outs. > It's going to take a while for everyone to synthesize all of Final > Nights. Especially remember that we've still got a lot of potentially > unexploited assets still in Sabbat War, because of the brief time > available. Hordes are holding a Rave, and everyone's invited! Heck, this Political Struggle Moncada idea appears to be new to most everybody here (myself included). Kind of like making Death Pact work, which also follows the "Put this card on a guy who's gonna go away later, and it will be good for you." OF COURSE you think that goes on your opponents, but the trick really works when you have a buddy taking the fall for you. =) The amount of combinations to digest is not exhausted, as anyone can say with complete certainty. There are quite likely some unused competitive ideas, even in just Sabbat War. > People have to adjust to the cards. From where I stand, a lot of people > want to exploit Spectral Divination, Call of the Hungry Dead, Bonding, > Dominate Kine, Seduction, The Sleeping Mind type combinations but > haven't actually done so (accumulating cards, no chance, whatever), yet. Well, I've got about 4 decks in my Newsletter folder from various people that do exactly that kind of thing, a couple of them that have been posted here. I'd say that people ARE exploiting this one, just that they're being tweaked up as we speak. =) > Potence Rush/Daemonic Possession/Graverobbing/Spectral Divination/Call > of the Hungry Dead also strikes me as a potentially powerful set of > cards to include in a deck. But far more card intensive and trickier to do (read the newsletter, man! =), and has the issues all combat decks have; when you're killing guys, you're not actually removing pool, you risk giving a VP to your grandpredator just to stay alive, etc. Still, I think one would consider a Lasombra Graverobbing deck to do the same, but that's tricky. (And, Paul diCarlo, the 4th musketeer, helps out the Twins to administer cheap beatings, something the Lasombra lack on their own.) But, done well (and I freely admit I haven't done it really "well" yet), it could be a big surprise as the potence rush deck actually *gains* minions as it goes. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <B79871F0.64E8%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>, Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> writes > But, done well (and I freely admit I haven't done it really "well" yet), >it could be a big surprise as the potence rush deck actually *gains* minions >as it goes. Add Sargon Fragment and Hand of Conrad for +2 fun. [ quoted text not captured ]

> >Both clans can get light stealth (bonding, Kine Dom, plus the Nec > >actions) > > Necromancy/Dominate getting to +3 stealth *and* a block cancellation is > "light"? Yes, compared to Malkavian Stealth (the Dom bleed I was thinking about) Giovanni are in the spectrum between the Malks and the Tremere. > > >Giovanni have extra stealth, Tremere have better bruise, > > How are you justifying the Tremere having better bruise? It's either > blood intensive (Shotgun etc.), requires second round and is vulnerable > to S:CE/Dodge etc. > > By contrast, the Giovanni's works first round, for free. With no manuvers, no long range anti-SCE/Dodge, The Tremere win. (With 3 anti-S:CE cards are sitting pretty: The action is with Perfect Clarity, you block? to bad majesty and obediance don't work, you dodge? press, or heck telepathic tracking at inf. at superior its backup for not haveing a PC in hand. Oh and then there's always Thoughts Betrayed, you'll theft it back anyway.) Even with the new vampires pot is hard to get into a NEC/dom deck. > It's going to take a while for everyone to synthesize all of Final > Nights. Especially remember that we've still got a lot of potentially > unexploited assets still in Sabbat War, because of the brief time > available. I agree. > People have to adjust to the cards. From where I stand, a lot of people > want to exploit Spectral Divination, Call of the Hungry Dead, Bonding, > Dominate Kine, Seduction, The Sleeping Mind type combinations but > haven't actually done so (accumulating cards, no chance, whatever), yet. > > Potence Rush/Daemonic Possession/Graverobbing/Spectral Divination/Call > of the Hungry Dead also strikes me as a potentially powerful set of > cards to include in a deck. Yep, it'll be interesting to see where these cards lead, but we haven't gotten there yet (not for lack of trying), so my experiance with Giovanni was as a bleed clan with some stealth and some bruise, and that new card smell. Cameron

In message <a1e26d99.01080...@posting.google.com>, Cameron <orcao...@hotmail.com> writes >Yes, compared to Malkavian Stealth (the Dom bleed I was thinking >about) Giovanni are in the spectrum between the Malks and the >Tremere. How much stealth do you routinely see a Malkavian deck need? [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:0irdFp1$Dic7...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > There are also more workable "trick" decks to be made around the > Giovanni than the Tremere, in my estimation. The "weird" cards give > some fun things to do. Oh, man. Them's fightin' words. Heh. > Bleed wise, they have Dominate. The Tremere do have Auspex for Pulse, > but that's not usually a big thing. The same Dominate tricks can be Revelations, Ecstatic Agony, Aura Reading, Fast Reaction, Precognizant Mobility, Scrying of Secrets... > done, but Necromancy-wise they have Spectral Divination (+1 stealth) and I'm hoping for a Tha card in the future that provides a similar effect...there's that one ritual where you need another vampire's blood, but then gain a simple success against them one time. Could be interesting. Maybe kinda like Seduction or something. > Call of the Hungry Dead (cancel a blocker) which provide more bite bleed > wise. Brigette is also a potentially powerful ally, giving the I was thinking just the other day that a Dom/Nec/Tha deck would be crazy and a half. GtU, Seduction, Spectral Divination, Perfect Clarity, Threats/Conditioning. Brutal. I should get off this bleeding kick and do something else. > A *good* bruise and bleed Giovanni deck should, in my estimation, be > able to make much more serious headway than a comparable Tremere deck. Riiight. :P Okay, I guess it's possible, but I want to see you make one first. So there. > Of course, the Tremere deck has much more intercept trickery which is a > very different area of play. Yup. And one that I'm just not all that excited about. Intercept is great and all, but...yeesh. [sig] > You scumbag, you maggot, you cheap lousy faggot > Happy Christmas your arse, I pray God it's our last Huh. I was just thinking about a local Irish band that covers this. Man, I need a good pint of stout and a night at an "Irish" bar. :) Xian

In message <PpEc7.2095$pg1.2...@news.uswest.net>, Xian <xi...@NOSPAMwaste.org> writes >> Bleed wise, they have Dominate. The Tremere do have Auspex for >Pulse, >> but that's not usually a big thing. The same Dominate tricks can be > >Revelations, Ecstatic Agony, Aura Reading, Fast Reaction, Precognizant >Mobility, Scrying of Secrets... Erm, the key words in my sentence were "Bleed wise". >I was thinking just the other day that a Dom/Nec/Tha deck would be >crazy and a half. GtU, Seduction, Spectral Divination, Perfect >Clarity, Threats/Conditioning. Brutal. I should get off this >bleeding kick and do something else. Heh. There are some cute applications of Nec/Tha. Magic of the Smith out the Sargon Fragment. :) >> You scumbag, you maggot, you cheap lousy faggot >> Happy Christmas your arse, I pray God it's our last > >Huh. I was just thinking about a local Irish band that covers this. >Man, I need a good pint of stout and a night at an "Irish" bar. :) Dublin is that way -----------------> -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F You scumbag, you maggot, you cheap lousy faggot B457CA213D7E6 Happy Christmas your arse, I pray God it's our last 68C3695D623D5D

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:OJCjf$XYcxc...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > Erm, the key words in my sentence were "Bleed wise". Oh, stupid illiteracy getting in the way again. :) > Heh. There are some cute applications of Nec/Tha. Magic of the Smith > out the Sargon Fragment. :) That's a good one. Venficorum Artum Sagdsjlksdg whatever, too, then pass it off to a NEC guy. Mmmm. > Dublin is that way -----------------> Not on this side of the Atlantic, it isn't. :P Xian P.S. Since Derek wasn't at GenCon, I didn't get to play any tricky "I have never..." stuff on him.

> "James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message > news:0irdFp1$Dic7...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... >> There are also more workable "trick" decks to be made around the >> Giovanni than the Tremere, in my estimation. The "weird" cards give >> some fun things to do. > > Oh, man. Them's fightin' words. Heh. > >> Bleed wise, they have Dominate. The Tremere do have Auspex for > Pulse, >> but that's not usually a big thing. The same Dominate tricks can be > > Revelations, Excellent support card, but not really a "trick." > Ecstatic Agony, Combat where you take damage, and hit with hands for more...seems a BIG waste of Tremere time. > Aura Reading, Fast Reaction Combat support, > Precognizant Mobility, Poor Man's Freak Drive, > Scrying of Secrets... See "Revelations," but change "Excellent" to "okay." They're all good cards, but in general are all "minor enhancements" or "watering down" of an otherwise solid deck. (note to all nitpickers: IN GENERAL). >> done, but Necromancy-wise they have Spectral Divination (+1 stealth) > and > > I'm hoping for a Tha card in the future that provides a similar > effect...there's that one ritual where you need another vampire's > blood, but then gain a simple success against them one time. Could be > interesting. Maybe kinda like Seduction or something. Or like Draba(?), where the inferior is a action you can drop for later, and and superior is a "you fail now." >> Call of the Hungry Dead (cancel a blocker) which provide more bite > bleed >> wise. Brigette is also a potentially powerful ally, giving the > > I was thinking just the other day that a Dom/Nec/Tha deck would be > crazy and a half. GtU, Seduction, Spectral Divination, Perfect > Clarity, Threats/Conditioning. Brutal. I should get off this > bleeding kick and do something else. Well, you can join the Ex Nihilo/Weather Control bandwagon, of course. =) And, you can get off the bleeding kick, but you'd better replace it with cards that actually oust people (a thing I often forget to do when playing with new toys. =) >> A *good* bruise and bleed Giovanni deck should, in my estimation, be >> able to make much more serious headway than a comparable Tremere > deck. > > Riiight. :P Okay, I guess it's possible, but I want to see you make > one first. So there. Me too. Anyone got a Final Nights Giovanni bruise-and-bleed they want to post up, that's actually won tables? >> Of course, the Tremere deck has much more intercept trickery which > is a >> very different area of play. > > Yup. And one that I'm just not all that excited about. Intercept is > great and all, but...yeesh. Hey, at least you've got it. I keep being in sore need of cheap intercept, and when you need NEC to get just 1 intercept...*sigh*. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Pat Ricochet" <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message news:B7989821.650D%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu... > > Revelations, > Excellent support card, but not really a "trick." But it's so...tricky! > > Ecstatic Agony, > Combat where you take damage, and hit with hands for more...seems a BIG > waste of Tremere time. Well...yeah, probably. I'm still trying to figure out how to use the card with optimum efficiency. > > Precognizant Mobility, > Poor Man's Freak Drive, Poor Man's Rutor's Hand? > > Scrying of Secrets... > See "Revelations," but change "Excellent" to "okay." All too true. :/ > They're all good cards, but in general are all "minor enhancements" or > "watering down" of an otherwise solid deck. (note to all nitpickers: IN > GENERAL). Okay, I'll grant you that. I'm just taking up the flag because James started the whole Tremere vs. Giovanni thing. That being said, I had a blast with my Corpse Minions deck, and I have to tune it some, but it kicked ass in pickup games at GenCon. > Or like Draba(?), where the inferior is a action you can drop for later, > and and superior is a "you fail now." Yeah, that'd be a good version too. Nice thought. > Well, you can join the Ex Nihilo/Weather Control bandwagon, of course. > =) Man, everyone's all about that. It's good, but...yeah, I don't know. Pat, you want Shroud Masteries or extra Ex Nihilo? I've got a pile of the former, and a few of the latter...will trade for Perfect Clarity. Hehe. > And, you can get off the bleeding kick, but you'd better replace it with > cards that actually oust people (a thing I often forget to do when playing > with new toys. =) Oh yeah. Stupid ousting. Always getting in the way of my tricks. Actually, I've got a new Tremere concept (surprise!) that I have to try out. Must think on it more. [intercept] > Hey, at least you've got it. I keep being in sore need of cheap > intercept, and when you need NEC to get just 1 intercept...*sigh*. True...still, it's so...iffy. I shocked myself when I was playing the Shambling Hordes deck, because I wanted to block a hunt Ethan was doing (he had Millicent that turn), I was looking at my hand, and I was like, "crap, why didn't I put intercept in here...all I have is stealth...wait a minute...what's this Spectral Divination? Cool!" Intercept is good, but really only in limited amounts, if you ask me. Xian still trying to get Melange to work right

"Cameron" <orcao...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a1e26d99.0108...@posting.google.com... > The bruise/bleed aspect of it is what I was thinking about (having > face Xian's tre/!tre deck 3 times at Gencon). Did we play a 3rd pickup game? Before or after the Shadow Twin tournament? > Both clans can get light stealth (bonding, Kine Dom, plus the Nec > actions) both have (D) actions for damage (Jar being better, but...) > Giovanni have extra stealth, Tremere have better bruise, and Perfect I think that the Tremere have more *varied* bruise...I'm not willing to say Tha is better than Potence (which is probably my favorite discipline). The Tremere have Theft for all around goodness, Blood to Water, and cheap agg in Walk of Flame. Potence can't do the first two, but it does have *first round* agg with Burning Wrath. Expensive as hell, but it's there. > Clarity to kill bounce. I'm not saying they're the same decks, but Telepathic Misdirection still works! I'm expecting to see a lot of it soon. Maybe I'll even change some of my Deflections to TM, so that I can use it for either the intercept or the bounce. Hmm. Aisling and Hannigan, oh my! > the main reason people seemed to be playing Giovanni in the Shadow > Twin was for bleed with light stealth and tricks. Xian's deck was The only Giovanni deck I saw was for bleed and Possession/Fortitude/Soul Gem tricks. Which doesn't mean a lot, but it was a fairly solid concept. When it got running. > light on stealth (At none) but had some tricks in Magic of the Smith, No stealth = intercept deck hand jam. Expected many Tzimisce. Xian

>> There are also more workable "trick" decks to be made around the >> Giovanni than the Tremere, in my estimation. The "weird" cards give >> some fun things to do. > >Oh, man. Them's fightin' words. Heh. You go Xian! Show them which clan is *really* in charge! =) >> done, but Necromancy-wise they have Spectral Divination (+1 stealth) >and > >I'm hoping for a Tha card in the future that provides a similar >effect...there's that one ritual where you need another vampire's >blood, but then gain a simple success against them one time. Could be >interesting. Maybe kinda like Seduction or something. A Thaumaturgy stealth card would just be a godsend. Another thing I'd really like to see is Thaumaturgical damage prevention, or S:CE, or even a simple dodge (I sort of liked that Levitation suggestion James gave a while back, 'cept for the superior effect). Halcyan 2

> "Pat Ricochet" <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message > news:B7989821.650D%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu... >>> Revelations, >> Excellent support card, but not really a "trick." > > But it's so...tricky! To be honest, it seems to get "less rare" in Sabbat War, even outside it's appearance in the Starters. Basically, it means everybody's got plenty now, and we see that damn card all the time. Seeing it twice it a row, too, can really screw up your hand. =) Very, very good card; 1 whole action, but it can make sure that the 1 OTHER action will *count*. >>> Ecstatic Agony, >> Combat where you take damage, and hit with hands for > more...seems a BIG >> waste of Tremere time. > > Well...yeah, probably. I'm still trying to figure out how to use the > card with optimum efficiency. Masochism/Ecstatic Agony/Hidden Strength. "Hit for 4? I'll spend 1 rush counter to prevent 2 of that, take 2 more, get 3 more rush counters, and press with my +2 hand damage..." +3 fun! >> They're all good cards, but in general are all "minor >> enhancements" or >> "watering down" of an otherwise solid deck. (note to all >> nitpickers: IN >> GENERAL). > > Okay, I'll grant you that. I'm just taking up the flag because James > started the whole Tremere vs. Giovanni thing. I know, and I'm keeping up my half; not only because I have to, but because it's refreshingly topical conversation. > That being said, I had a blast with my Corpse Minions deck, and I have > to tune it some, but it kicked ass in pickup games at GenCon. "I have as much intercept as you have blood for me to steal to get it back." =) >> Or like Draba(?), where the inferior is a action you can drop >> for later, >> and and superior is a "you fail now." > > Yeah, that'd be a good version too. Nice thought. Though, with having Perfect Clarity, I don't know that they really NEED a card like that. =) It better cost a blood, at least. >> Well, you can join the Ex Nihilo/Weather Control bandwagon, of > course. >> =) > > Man, everyone's all about that. It's good, but...yeah, I don't know. > Pat, you want Shroud Masteries or extra Ex Nihilo? I've got a pile of > the former, and a few of the latter...will trade for Perfect Clarity. > Hehe. I've only got one PC; that and Ecstatic Agony seem to be "annoyingly rare." Or a bad shuffle; they should be all the same. On a "utility" level, I'd trade one PC for *2* Shroud Masteries...mr. "pile." =) Think about it, anyway. > [intercept] >> Hey, at least you've got it. I keep being in sore need of cheap >> intercept, and when you need NEC to get just 1 intercept...*sigh*. > > True...still, it's so...iffy. I shocked myself when I was playing the > Shambling Hordes deck, because I wanted to block a hunt Ethan was Not "a" Shambling Hordes deck, mind you, but "the" Shambling Hordes deck; they're all the same with that "done to death" cookie-cutter look. =P (sarcasm aside, any "new tricks" you added in, outside of the Path, Rave, and Trap?) > doing (he had Millicent that turn), I was looking at my hand, and I > was like, "crap, why didn't I put intercept in here...all I have is > stealth...wait a minute...what's this Spectral Divination? Cool!" > Intercept is good, but really only in limited amounts, if you ask me. Depends; I think intercept is good in the amounts needed to stop all the actions that you need to stop; pretty game and metagame dependent. What I *do* know is that having NO intercept is a recipe for disaster, since your opponent's "tricks" will all go off, while yours don't, since they remembered to bring light intercept. Overall, I agree; intercept is a card intensive way to spend time that doesn't reduce pool. But I would say that it's the #1 way to stuff up pool GAIN, in most of it's forms. > Xian > still trying to get Melange to work right You and Tatu both! He gets it to work now and again...but never actually gets a VP with those decks...hmm.... [ quoted text not captured ]

> A pittance compared to Gustav Mallenhous, who shoves the !Ventrue vote > deck up a notch all by himself. > Not to mention Creepshow Casino, that pushes ALL vote decks that have > trouble with stealth up a notch. maybe i am used to intercept heavy vienna but +1 stealth once a turn won´t help you to call your votes. > > fn failed in what it tried to achieve, the indys are still weak and the > > metagame is still the same! > > So while you're at it, say: "LSJ, Todd Bannister, you suck." Also be > sure to clarify your statement with: "This game is so simple a child could > figure it out, and the best decks you can make with Final Nights cards have > already been tried and failed." > no i ak not saying that, i just say that FN is a fine set, but the design team imo was afraid to make the indys as powerful as the camarilla are. no i am saying that after FN metagame at large Tourneys will be the same. > I'm sorry you haven't had much success with your Final Nights cards yet; i had success with FN cards, but i oppose the hype in this newsgroup, FN is not the best set ever. yes you can build cool decks with the indys but will they work in tourneys? the ravnos got some good stuff but e.g. i prefer sensory deprevation over reality, most of the new assamite combat cards are to expensive or simply to weak, i prefer taste of death. the govanni came out best and are imo the best indy clan. the followers of set still lack effective defense. >. I'd really > hope you'd give them a better "go" and some time to develop before writing > off the whole set (not to mention indirectly insulting the designers). > i never insulted anyone i just critized the FN set I think white wolf is doing a great job with Vtes and i wanna thank them for that but still i think critics should be allowed. Stefan [ quoted text not captured ]

Cameron <orcao...@hotmail.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: a1e26d99.01080...@posting.google.com... > > where did FN shake up the metagame. > > the only clan that will have impact in tournys is going to be govanni, > > No offense to Pat, but the Giovanni have the same impact as the > tremere, bleed with tricks. As for the others still sucking, you did > note that Dave got to the finals of the Qualifier Tournement at Gencon > with a Assamite deck, and did well in the final yes but he mainly used taste of death as combat card

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > How are you justifying the Tremere having better bruise? It's either > blood intensive (Shotgun etc.), requires second round and is vulnerable > to S:CE/Dodge etc. *cough*Thoughts Betrayed*cough*Weather Control*cough* Regards, Noal

Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote: >>>> Revelations, > > Basically, it means everybody's got plenty > now, and we see that damn card all the time. I've always had quite a few, but I recently discovered how the inferior version is. I've even gone so far as to replce the 2 Muddled Vampire Hunters in my Malkavian vote deck, "Swinging Dick 2." Regards, Noal

> > > where did FN shake up the metagame. > > > the only clan that will have impact in tournys is going to be govanni, > > > > No offense to Pat, but the Giovanni have the same impact as the > > tremere, bleed with tricks. As for the others still sucking, you did > > note that Dave got to the finals of the Qualifier Tournement at Gencon > > with a Assamite deck, and did well in the final > > yes but he mainly used taste of death as combat card No, he mainly used Theft of Vitae as a combat card, when he did use taste of death, is was to send some one to torpor so he could use Provisions on them to fill up, he got into combat with Cladstine Contracts, although he did have a few Bums Rush for the rutor's hands. His CRYPT also really changed, using the Secretary of the Silsila to go and fetch contracts and other new midcaps, although yes the deck did focus on Parnassus. Still Ur-shugi made it out a few times. Yes taste is still a good card. The assamites are effective now because of the things that they have to surround taste of death with. (IMHO) Cameron Ring-a-ring o'roses, A pocketful of posies, A-tishoo, a-tishoo, We all fall down.

In message <veJc7.706$IU4.1...@news.uswest.net>, Xian <xi...@NOSPAMwaste.org> writes >> > Revelations, >> Excellent support card, but not really a "trick." > >But it's so...tricky! A number of UK players have commented on the utility of the *inferior* in the past. Look at their hand *and* a discard of your choice is exceptionally useful in a toolboxed environment. Bye-bye, Archon Investigation. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F You scumbag, you maggot, you cheap lousy faggot B457CA213D7E6 Happy Christmas your arse, I pray God it's our last 68C3695D623D5D

In message <bb705c59.01081...@posting.google.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> writes [ quoted text not captured ] Weather Control is quite card intensive. Workable, but in a bruise and bleed type deck, that's a *lot* of cards just gone to bruise.... I class Thoughts Betrayed under "blood intensive" however. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <20010810013218...@ng-cp1.aol.com>, Halcyan 2 <halc...@aol.com> writes >>I'm hoping for a Tha card in the future that provides a similar >>effect...there's that one ritual where you need another vampire's >>blood, but then gain a simple success against them one time. Could be >>interesting. Maybe kinda like Seduction or something. > >A Thaumaturgy stealth card would just be a godsend. Another thing I'd really >like to see is Thaumaturgical damage prevention, or S:CE, or even a simple >dodge (I sort of liked that Levitation suggestion James gave a while back, >'cept for the superior effect). Heh, it was only invented as a hypothetical card for the case in hand (Reverend Blackwood). Perhaps combine the two ideas, a la Alacrity. Ritual Warding Thaumaturgy Combat/Action Modifier combo card 2 blood inf: Strike: Combat Ends sup: +1 stealth; if this action is blocked, the acting vampire may declare Strike: Combat Ends as their strike once during that combat. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F You scumbag, you maggot, you cheap lousy faggot B457CA213D7E6 Happy Christmas your arse, I pray God it's our last 68C3695D623D5D

"Pat Ricochet" <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message news:B798EEFA.652A%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu... > Masochism/Ecstatic Agony/Hidden Strength. "Hit for 4? I'll spend 1 > rush counter to prevent 2 of that, take 2 more, get 3 more rush counters, > and press with my +2 hand damage..." +3 fun! Oooh. I like it. Maybe I'll start making a !Ventrue rush deck. Heh. > I know, and I'm keeping up my half; not only because I have to, but > because it's refreshingly topical conversation. Yay! > > That being said, I had a blast with my Corpse Minions deck, and I have > > to tune it some, but it kicked ass in pickup games at GenCon. > > "I have as much intercept as you have blood for me to steal to get it > back." =) I, of course, misspelled Shambling Hordes as "Corpse Minions". Sigh. I've been doing that for the last couple of weeks. Gotta love the Hordes. I was hoping that both Josh and I would be playing Hordes decks in the beginners' tournament, but he played his snake-y deck. Of course, he had the courage to play the Hordes in the qualifier, so I can't really complain. > Though, with having Perfect Clarity, I don't know that they really NEED > a card like that. =) It better cost a blood, at least. Oh, it would most certainly cost a blood. I just figure that Thaumaturgy should do more than combat, becuase in the RPG, it is theoretically the most versatile discipline, because you can create new paths and rituals and all that with relative ease. Plus, I'm getting tired of people complaining that they can't get Tha combat to work. So do something else with it. :) > Not "a" Shambling Hordes deck, mind you, but "the" Shambling Hordes > deck; they're all the same with that "done to death" cookie-cutter look. =P You are correct. :) 20 Hordes, various other stuff. > (sarcasm aside, any "new tricks" you added in, outside of the Path, Rave, > and Trap?) No, I only got a chance to play it once before GenCon, then didn't have enough time/cards to tweak it when I was there. I like the Rave angle, though, it's worked out well...thanks for the idea there. And I'm not so sure about Trap. Maneuvers would help more, so I may be putting in some Fake Outs. I put in a couple of GtUs and Grave Robbing, but that's about it for "other stuff". > Depends; I think intercept is good in the amounts needed to stop all the > actions that you need to stop; pretty game and metagame dependent. What I Highly. :) > *do* know is that having NO intercept is a recipe for disaster, since your > opponent's "tricks" will all go off, while yours don't, since they > remembered to bring light intercept. Well...I had no intercept in my deck for the Shadow Twin tournament...and rush decks are fine without intercept. But that tends to only work if you're going all-out. I just have played without intercept for so long, it feels weird to be playing with much/any. > Overall, I agree; intercept is a card intensive way to spend time that > doesn't reduce pool. But I would say that it's the #1 way to stuff up pool > GAIN, in most of it's forms. Very true...I really have to say though that I've been playing a fair amount of rush for a while, so when I see a nice fat minion, my first thought isn't "stop the 5th!" My first thought is, "Where's my Bum's Rush?" [Melange] > You and Tatu both! He gets it to work now and again...but never > actually gets a VP with those decks...hmm.... Yeah, I thought it'd be a great way to go forward with intercept, but it has yet to work out. Maybe some day. Xian

James Coupe wrote: > I class Thoughts Betrayed under "blood intensive" however. In and of itself, sure. However Tremere can steal blood better than anyone else, making up for the cost of that card. Of course, they're more than welcome to play Blood Rage or whatever and Taste of Vitae to cover the cost of TB. In a deck designed for it, Thought's Betrayed's cost is not prohibitive at all. Regards, Noal

"Xian" <xi...@NOSPAMwaste.org> wrote in news:rPYc7.186$pP.453110 @news.uswest.net: > "Pat Ricochet" <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message > news:B798EEFA.652A%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu... >> "I have as much intercept as you have blood for me to steal to get >> it back." =) > > I, of course, misspelled Shambling Hordes as "Corpse Minions". Sigh. You've never made a Corpse Minion deck? They're a riot! =) Especially with the ruling saying you can keep spending blood for more intercept, as opposed to a one-shot deal... get out Ulugh, get a Minion on him, and presto! Intercept and *schluuurrrp*. Leaves TONS of room for all your nifty combat cards.... just have to pack enough Wakes to make sure your guy is in good shape. :) Biggest problem is needing big pure Tremere. Sarah looks cute with a Minion, but if you can't play Thoughts Betrayed, it kind of sucks to catch someone at 3 stealth only to have them S:CE. And this means going up to at least Astrid. Reverend Blackwood would be PERFECT in this except for that pesky clan requirement... :( > new paths and rituals and all that with relative ease. Plus, I'm > getting tired of people complaining that they can't get Tha combat to > work. So do something else with it. :) They just haven't put 17 Rush actions in a deck yet. > [Melange] >> You and Tatu both! He gets it to work now and again...but never >> actually gets a VP with those decks...hmm.... > > Yeah, I thought it'd be a great way to go forward with intercept, but > it has yet to work out. Maybe some day. I really need to make an EFFORT to make such a deck work. But you have to chuck around Eagle's Sight with it, and then you have to keep your minions alive in the combat, and THEN you have to stealth the bleed through... which means you have to use Malkavians, who are kind of fragile in combat, so you have to put in Disguised Weapons, which means more card slots... wow, look at all those moving parts, isn't there an easier way? So then you could use the Tzimisce, who can get a LITTLE stealth from Vicissitude, and they're not at ALL fragile in combat, but isn't it easier to just slap a Pulse on them since their AUS guys are so big and can afford it anyway? Wait! The art fa^H^H^H^H^H^HToreador! And they have Presence and can play Majesty and Aire of Elation for lots, and they can get +1 stealth from Alacrity... and they'll never get the bleed through; nevermind, might as well just put in nine million Aires and use weenies and Change of Target. If Melange was a PERMANENT +1 bleed, it would be a good card. But intercept decks would be hell on wheels then, so I guess it'd be TOO good of a card. Rats.

>You've never made a Corpse Minion deck? They're a riot! =) Especially >with the ruling saying you can keep spending blood for more intercept, as >opposed to a one-shot deal... get out Ulugh, get a Minion on him, and >presto! Intercept and *schluuurrrp*. Leaves TONS of room for all your >nifty combat cards.... just have to pack enough Wakes to make sure your guy >is in good shape. :) > >Biggest problem is needing big pure Tremere. Sarah looks cute with a >Minion, but if you can't play Thoughts Betrayed, it kind of sucks to catch >someone at 3 stealth only to have them S:CE. And this means going up to at >least Astrid. Reverend Blackwood would be PERFECT in this except for that >pesky clan requirement... :( I like the partial-Sabbat angle as well. Not only do you get Reverend Blackwood, but I'm sure Goratrix (w/ his built-in Theft) could truly use the Corpse Minion for maximum effect. I suppose you could include a few Clan Impersonations and/or rely on Heidelburg to move the Minions (and also move blood appropriately as well). Sounds like a nifty deck!! Halcyan 2

Noal McDonald wrote: >Tortured Confessions is _not_ a wallpaper card. I can think of some >decks that it would fit in nicely...say the old Dawn Op/Skin of >Night/Weather Control deck. Since they're going to torpor anyway, I >play TC to see if they have a Deflection in their hand to block the >next bleed and TC certainly doesn't prevent me from cleaning up >afterward with Muaziz. Agree. Tortured Confession is a weak card, but has some uses. Shadow Parasite is utter and complete wallpaper, though. And Rare. What were they thinking?

Johan Lundstrom wrote: > Shadow Parasite is utter and complete wallpaper, though. How is it wallpaper? 4R damage, usable 1st round is nothing to be sneezed at. A Taste of Vitae entirely offsets the cost of the card and Path of Night brings the cost down. > And Rare. What were they thinking? Why is rare "wallpaper" bad? If there's going to be a worthless card, I'd rather not get much of it. Regards, Noal

Noal McDonald <dhar...@none-of-your-fscking-business.com> wrote: >Johan Lundstrom wrote: >> Shadow Parasite is utter and complete wallpaper, though. > >How is it wallpaper? 4R damage, usable 1st round is nothing to be >sneezed at. A Taste of Vitae entirely offsets the cost of the card and >Path of Night brings the cost down. Mainly because pretty much every vampire that could play SP could play the vastly better Thrown Sewer Lid instead. Sewer Lid at inferior is much preferable to SP at superior, IMHO. If only there had been some nice sideffect... And paying two blood for a strike that can be (and likely will, at least in the Swedish metagame) just hit a S:CE, is not fun. >> And Rare. What were they thinking? > >Why is rare "wallpaper" bad? If there's going to be a worthless card, >I'd rather not get much of it. Because it takes up a more valuable slot. I have the commons I need, but getting an SP as a rare really sucks. Of course, it would be better if there were no wallpaper cards at all...

[ quoted text not captured ] ? So you would prefer that one of the commons be rare (say, Venenation) so that this rare card could be common - that way you'd have more "wallpaper" cards and somehow feel better about getting a card you actually need in a rare slot (even though you'd have more of that "needed" card if it were common)? -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Johan Lundstrom wrote: > Mainly because pretty much every vampire that could play SP could play > the vastly better Thrown Sewer Lid instead. Vastly Superior??? Outside of the cost, I don't see how you reach that conclusion. At inferior, they both do 3R. At superior, Shadow Parasite does 4R while TSL still only does 3. At this time, it is true that most that can play SP can also play TSL, (at this time there are 3 that can play SP at superior that cannot play TSL at all) to the best of my recollection the Kiasyd are being released in Bloodlines and they have, I believe, Obtenebration but not Potence. Therefore, SP may possibly be the better option for them. > Sewer Lid at inferior is much preferable to SP at superior, IMHO. I'm confused. How is 3R preferrable to 4R? > And paying two blood for a strike that can be (and likely will, at > least in the Swedish metagame) just hit a S:CE, is not fun. As I mentioned, there are ways to offset the cost of the card if you plan for it. As for S:CE, repeat after me, "Thoughts Betrayed stops S:CE." It is that simple. > Because it takes up a more valuable slot. I have the commons I need, > but getting an SP as a rare really sucks. I will continue to disagree that it is wallpaper and LSJ already shot the hole in this "logic," so I won't belabor the point. > Of course, it would be better if there were no wallpaper cards at > all... I recall a time when people thought that Uriah Winter was wallpaper and I'm still convinced that one day I'll figure out a way to build a reasonably competitive deck around Deal With the Devil. Regards, Noal McDonald VEKN Prince of Metro Detroit

>Heh, it was only invented as a hypothetical card for the case in hand >(Reverend Blackwood). It was still a good idea though. =) The Tremere really need *something* to defend with, and at least a Dodge is something. (I do have to admit that the superior, a manuever with a dodge, was a bit weak. In most cases, it's sort of redundant but I guess it's useful when you or your opponent uses additional strikes). >Perhaps combine the two ideas, a la Alacrity. > >Ritual Warding >Thaumaturgy >Combat/Action Modifier combo card >2 blood >inf: Strike: Combat Ends >sup: +1 stealth; if this action is blocked, the acting vampire may > declare Strike: Combat Ends as their strike once during that combat. Mmmm...I really like this card too! Just what the Tremere need... James, White Wolf should really hire you to make some new Thaumaturgy cards for the upcoming sets! ;) Halcyan 2

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >So you would prefer that one of the commons be rare (say, Venenation) so >that this rare card could be common - that way you'd have more "wallpaper" >cards and somehow feel better about getting a card you actually need in >a rare slot (even though you'd have more of that "needed" card if it >were common)? Well, alright. But it still *feels* worse to get a crap card in the rare slot...

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >How much stealth do you routinely see a Malkavian deck need? Three at the barest minimum (to beat 2nd trad), with the possibility to go to four (or possibly even more) in need. Spice with Seductions (because they never stack up on your hand). The big bonus is that they can deliver big bleeds reasonably cheap at this level of stealth, while a Gio deck has to pay three blood to deliver a three point bleed at three stealth.

Noal McDonald <dhar...@none-of-your-fscking-business.com> wrote: >Johan Lundstrom wrote: >> Mainly because pretty much every vampire that could play SP could play >> the vastly better Thrown Sewer Lid instead. > >Vastly Superior??? Outside of the cost, I don't see how you reach that >conclusion. Of course it's the cost that does it! Just like Gas-powered Chainsaw is better than the standard one. The cost is one of the fundamental things that decides how good a card is. >At inferior, they both do 3R. At superior, Shadow Parasite >does 4R while TSL still only does 3. > >At this time, it is true that most that can play SP can also play TSL, >(at this time there are 3 that can play SP at superior that cannot play >TSL at all) to the best of my recollection the Kiasyd are being released >in Bloodlines and they have, I believe, Obtenebration but not Potence. >Therefore, SP may possibly be the better option for them. Agree (although I doubt it). Perhaps the card could have been released in that set, then? >> Sewer Lid at inferior is much preferable to SP at superior, IMHO. > >I'm confused. How is 3R preferrable to 4R? Cost. >> And paying two blood for a strike that can be (and likely will, at >> least in the Swedish metagame) just hit a S:CE, is not fun. > >As I mentioned, there are ways to offset the cost of the card if you >plan for it. As for S:CE, repeat after me, "Thoughts Betrayed stops >S:CE." It is that simple. I'm not saying there is no possible way to use the card - apart from Concealed Weapon, every card in the game has some theoretical use (Disguised Weapon is better in every respect than CW. I don't think there's any other card in the game that matches that. Please correct me if I'm wrong). However, sometimes the 'possible' combo becomes to much a bother. Your use of SP is racking up cards badly, and by now requires at least four cards and four blood on the vampire to be playable. If I wanted to make a Lasombra pitch deck, I'd use Increase Strengths and Thrown Gate/Sewer Lid. Now, if you could show me why an SP based deck would be better, I'm quite willing to listen (since I have two of the suckers and wouldn't mind to put them to use some day, or trade them to someone. (Just in case anyone wonder, I'd gladly trade my Shadow Parasites for *any* other rares in Final Nights. Any takers?) >> Because it takes up a more valuable slot. I have the commons I need, >> but getting an SP as a rare really sucks. > >I will continue to disagree that it is wallpaper and LSJ already shot >the hole in this "logic," so I won't belabor the point. > >> Of course, it would be better if there were no wallpaper cards at >> all... > >I recall a time when people thought that Uriah Winter was wallpaper and >I'm still convinced that one day I'll figure out a way to build a >reasonably competitive deck around Deal With the Devil. Uriah Winter is at least interesting. For the real wallpaper vampires, take a look at the high-cap Brujah primogen. Deal with the Devil isn't what I'd call wallpaper. It would probably do well in a Shambling Hordes deck. *Basing* a deck around it could be tough - something where you run yourself out of cards and then put the ones you want back in the deck, I'd imagine. Chainsaw, Eyes of the Dead, Concealed Weapon. Twisting the Knife - now *there's* wallpaper...

In message <20010812052245...@ng-cq1.aol.com>, Halcyan 2 <halc...@aol.com> writes >The Tremere really need *something* to defend with, and at least a Dodge is >something. (Considering how to deal with this now, rather than with additions.) Well, going *outside* of Thaumaturgy, they do. Dodge!, as everyone, but Read Intentions is also viable - though it does need AUS. A deck with a significant intercept section, however, may have it knocking around. In terms of Strike: Combat Ends, Mercy for the Weak is not entirely impossible if you're going for heavy Theft. >(I do have to admit that the superior, a manuever with a dodge, was >a bit weak. I was picking on combat and specifically didn't want a damage dealing ability. Perhaps I should've picked S:CE <:) (A pointy, wizard-like, Tremere hat, or something.) >In most cases, it's sort of redundant but I guess it's useful when >you or your opponent uses additional strikes). Mages on Speed! Mages on Speed! >>Ritual Warding >>Thaumaturgy >>Combat/Action Modifier combo card >>2 blood >>inf: Strike: Combat Ends >>sup: +1 stealth; if this action is blocked, the acting vampire may >> declare Strike: Combat Ends as their strike once during that combat. > >Mmmm...I really like this card too! Just what the Tremere need... Well, my thinking was to reverse Alacrity, making the stealth hard to access and expensive, but not unplayable. I'm worried about the combining of something like this with Perfect Clarity. It's 4 blood, though, I guess, but stealth from here and Bonding *and* prevention of (most) bounce would be, erm, icky. Though it's still in Pack Tactics range. >James, White Wolf should really hire you to make some new Thaumaturgy cards for >the upcoming sets! ;) Mmmmm.... money. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3b763ca0....@news.algonet.se>, Johan Lundstrom <jo...@algonet.se> writes >>Vastly Superior??? Outside of the cost, I don't see how you reach that >>conclusion. > >Of course it's the cost that does it! > >Just like Gas-powered Chainsaw is better than the standard one. The >cost is one of the fundamental things that decides how good a card is. A combat oriented discipline is always going to have cheaper cards than a less-oriented discipline. (Compare Obfuscate's Lost in Crowds to Celerity's Alacrity, say, for a similar orientation issue.) A deck that *does* want to exploit Obtenebration heavily should be including several Path of Night, which drops the cost - not only of that, but of all Obtenebration cards. Free Shadow Play is *lush*. The card is also potentially more powerful, if you want pure damage - say, you end up against a Tremere deck and really, really don't want to go to the second round, as a Thrown Sewer Lid deck wanting more damage would tend to do. (Excluding Celerity, of course, since this is a POT/OBT type arena.) Although with Black Metamorphosis. Indeed, with Taste of Vitae, it's very easy to get the blood back. Decks with some combat orientation can significantly benefit from ToV. Indeed, it's not too bad anyway - for a non-combat deck that gets blocked and exchanges hand damage from time to time, playing ToV will prevent them from having to hunt to replace it. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3b7644ac....@news.algonet.se>, Johan Lundstrom <jo...@algonet.se> writes >James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > >>How much stealth do you routinely see a Malkavian deck need? > >Three at the barest minimum (to beat 2nd trad), with the possibility >to go to four (or possibly even more) in need. That's what I mean. You *may* need +17 stealth, but how much would you need on the majority of your actions? Against a serious intercept deck, you'll need a lot, routinely, until either they get you and you die, or you oust them. Many Malkavian decks will die a horrible death when blocked. A Giovanni deck stands a little more chance. (In clan/disc S:Dodge/S:CE, Potence fight back and so on.) > Spice with Seductions >(because they never stack up on your hand). Seduction is great. >The big bonus is that they can deliver big bleeds reasonably cheap at >this level of stealth, while a Gio deck has to pay three blood to >deliver a three point bleed at three stealth. Well, add this to the Path of Bone.... Free Whispers from the Dead and a few other Necromancy cards significantly cheaper. Path of Paradox has got all the good press, because of Chimerstry almost always being expensive prior to Final Nights, but Path of Bone has its uses. :) I don't think Giovanni will set the world alight with their Stealth and Bleed. I do think they could do good bruise and bleed, with enough stealth/block cancellation on top to slip a crucial bleed through. "Oh yes," says the prey, "he'll bleed with Isabel and Andrea and I'll be able to block that one and maybe that one, so if I discard that and leave that untapped and.... <careful plotting>" followed by you doing something Odd And Unexpected (tm). I like playing Silly Combos/What If at times - because in Jyhad, you *can* pull them off. Indeed, with a 4 capacity with DOM nec, like Gloria, you can manage Govern the Unaligned, Seduction, Spectral Divination, Call of the Hungry Dead and Bonding, you can manage +3 stealth and 4 bleed, for 1 blood with Path of Bone. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3B760DF1...@none-of-your-fscking-business.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@none-of-your-fscking-business.com> writes >At this time, it is true that most that can play SP can also play TSL, >(at this time there are 3 that can play SP at superior that cannot play >TSL at all) to the best of my recollection the Kiasyd are being released >in Bloodlines I have no knowledge of the internals of Bloodlines (and even if I did, I couldn't really say much) but generally the Kiasyd do have Obtenebration, yep, which should have plenty of entertaining use for cross-over decks and such. >> And paying two blood for a strike that can be (and likely will, at >> least in the Swedish metagame) just hit a S:CE, is not fun. > >As I mentioned, there are ways to offset the cost of the card if you >plan for it. As for S:CE, repeat after me, "Thoughts Betrayed stops >S:CE." It is that simple. Disguised Weapon-Smoke Grenade! Hurrah! >> Of course, it would be better if there were no wallpaper cards at >> all... > >I recall a time when people thought that Uriah Winter was wallpaper and >I'm still convinced that one day I'll figure out a way to build a >reasonably competitive deck around Deal With the Devil. Indeed. I think the difficulty of obtaining SW, initially, and the speed from there to FN has hampered the Lasombra, especially when a couple of cards seem to be virtually automatically dismissed, Shroud of Night during the previews, Shadow Parasite the moment someone says "Thrown Sewer Lid". Shadow Strike seems potentially very cool indeed. The Tzimisce seemed to fair a lot better in terms of exploration. Inner Essence, Skin Trap and the like all seem to have done better. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >I have no knowledge of the internals of Bloodlines (and even if I did, I >couldn't really say much) but generally the Kiasyd do have >Obtenebration, yep, which should have plenty of entertaining use for >cross-over decks and such. I'm somewhat nervous on Bloodlines. Almost all the bloodline special disciplines are funkier by far (in the RPG) than even the funkiest VtES-disciplines (Thaum and Nec, IMO). I hope the designers try to be at least somewhat sensible on the effects of the new disciplines. I mean, they have ten (or something) new disciplines to make interesting, individualized and correctly powered? The RPG failed horribly. I hope the VtES designers do better. >Disguised Weapon-Smoke Grenade! Hurrah! Wouldn't it suck to have spent four blood then, eh? <g>

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >A combat oriented discipline is always going to have cheaper cards than >a less-oriented discipline. (Compare Obfuscate's Lost in Crowds to >Celerity's Alacrity, say, for a similar orientation issue.) I agree, of course. But since the only clan with Obt also has Pot, it seems more than a little redunant to make a long-distance card that's less useful than the one they already have in Thrown Sewer Lid. If it had been an Auspex or Obfuscate card, I would have been (somewhat) more understanding. >A deck that *does* want to exploit Obtenebration heavily should be >including several Path of Night, which drops the cost - not only of >that, but of all Obtenebration cards. Free Shadow Play is *lush*. Don't I know it. If it wasn't for those bastards burning it all the time... :-/ >The card is also potentially more powerful, if you want pure damage - >say, you end up against a Tremere deck and really, really don't want to >go to the second round, as a Thrown Sewer Lid deck wanting more damage >would tend to do. (Excluding Celerity, of course, since this is a >POT/OBT type arena.) Although with Black Metamorphosis. If you really, REALLY don't want to go to the second round, the press from Thrown Sewer Lid at superior might come in handy. ;-) The potential power from TSL is even greater than Shadow Parasite, BTW, if you include Increased Strength... >Indeed, with Taste of Vitae, it's very easy to get the blood back. Sure, as long as the strike is not S:CEnded, or dodged, or the damage prevented. If it is, it's -1 fun to have burned two blood for nothing. >Decks with some combat orientation can significantly benefit from ToV. >Indeed, it's not too bad anyway - for a non-combat deck that gets >blocked and exchanges hand damage from time to time, playing ToV will >prevent them from having to hunt to replace it. If I ever claim that Taste is wallpaper, I hope those nice men in white cotes increase my medication. :-)

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >Many Malkavian decks will die a horrible death when blocked. A Giovanni >deck stands a little more chance. (In clan/disc S:Dodge/S:CE, Potence >fight back and so on.) Right. That's good balance. If the Gio could out-stealth-and-bleed Malks, while still having access to all their goodies, something would be seriously wrong. >> Spice with Seductions >>(because they never stack up on your hand). > >Seduction is great. Spying Mission and M1kFaces are good to avoid stealth stacking, too. >Well, add this to the Path of Bone.... Free Whispers from the Dead and >a few other Necromancy cards significantly cheaper. Path of Paradox has >got all the good press, because of Chimerstry almost always being >expensive prior to Final Nights, but Path of Bone has its uses. :) Hordes! Hordes! In fact, I think Typhon might be the one Path that's left out. All the others are great, but it seems Serpentis don't need/can't use their path much. At least in my experience. >I don't think Giovanni will set the world alight with their Stealth and >Bleed. I do think they could do good bruise and bleed, with enough >stealth/block cancellation on top to slip a crucial bleed through. > >"Oh yes," says the prey, "he'll bleed with Isabel and Andrea and I'll be >able to block that one and maybe that one, so if I discard that and >leave that untapped and.... <careful plotting>" > >followed by you doing something Odd And Unexpected (tm). > >I like playing Silly Combos/What If at times - because in Jyhad, you >*can* pull them off. The best combos are those where the individual cards are useful even when the full combo *doesn't* pop up. Like your example below -all the cards are serious in their own. Unlike, say, Dawn Operation/Weather Control/Skin of Night/Amaranth/Ritual of the Bitter Rose/Absolution for the Diabolist. >Indeed, with a 4 capacity with DOM nec, like Gloria, you can manage >Govern the Unaligned, Seduction, Spectral Divination, Call of the Hungry >Dead and Bonding, you can manage +3 stealth and 4 bleed, for 1 blood >with Path of Bone. Add in Command of the Beast for a fifth point of bleed.

> James Coupe wrote: > I have no knowledge of the internals of Bloodlines (and even if I did, I > couldn't really say much) but generally the Kiasyd do have > Obtenebration, yep, which should have plenty of entertaining use for > cross-over decks and such. Well, I don't have my crystal ball handy either, but the initial announcement regarding Bloodlines made by Steve Wieck in the newsgroup (but not in the press release) did specify Kiasyd among the clans being released. I just looked up the clan in the players guide to see what disciplines thy have. They've got Obtenebration, Dominate and some other clan specific discipline. They should pair up with Lasombra fairly well, I would think. Kinda like the True Brujah should pair up well with the Brujah and !Brujah. >> As for S:CE, repeat after me, "Thoughts Betrayed stops >> S:CE." It is that simple. > > Disguised Weapon-Smoke Grenade! Hurrah! Got a maneuver so you can use it? > Shadow Strike seems potentially very cool indeed. It is. I built a pitch deck around it that's quite nasty. It's still being tweaked somewhat, but the initial run had fair results. Think of it as Aid From Bats that you can pump up with Potence pre-range cards. Regards, Noal

In message <3b76d389....@news.algonet.se>, Johan Lundstrom <jo...@algonet.se> writes >The potential power from TSL is even greater than Shadow Parasite, Sure, Potence is a combat discipline. I'd be disappointed if it wasn't. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3b76d94d....@news.algonet.se>, Johan Lundstrom <jo...@algonet.se> writes >The best combos are those where the individual cards are useful even >when the full combo *doesn't* pop up. It depends on your point of view, really, and on how easily assemble- able the combo is, and on how easily stoppable the combo is. There's nothing wrong with "specific" combos for something that's easy to pull off. In the Amaranth, Weather Control, Dawn Operation type deck, you have the option of not blocking and so forth, stopping the rest of the combo being pulled off, stopping cycling. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3B771E40...@none-of-your-fscking-business.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@none-of-your-fscking-business.com> writes >>> As for S:CE, repeat after me, "Thoughts Betrayed stops >>> S:CE." It is that simple. >> >> Disguised Weapon-Smoke Grenade! Hurrah! > >Got a maneuver so you can use it? 27. Don't you always carry 27 Fake Out in every deck? >> Shadow Strike seems potentially very cool indeed. > >It is. I built a pitch deck around it that's quite nasty. It's still >being tweaked somewhat, but the initial run had fair results. Think of >it as Aid From Bats that you can pump up with Potence pre-range cards. The general lack of a good "Flash" card is moderately annoying. Shadow Step is usable, but Monger 3.2 doesn't have it in Sabbat War, which is also moderately annoying. [ quoted text not captured ]

Johan Lundstrom wrote: > In fact, I think Typhon might be the one Path that's left out. All the > others are great, but it seems Serpentis don't need/can't use their > path much. At least in my experience. I'd agree with that assertion, and most others would too. Which is why I don't think people would target it as much if it's in play. That could be a good thing. Mye experience has been that the top 4 most needed Paths are (in order of greatest to least need): 1) Path of Paradox 2) Path of Blood 3) Path of Metamorphosis 4) Path of Night > The best combos are those where the individual cards are useful even > when the full combo *doesn't* pop up. Like your example below -all > the cards are serious in their own. Unlike, say, Dawn > Operation/Weather Control/Skin of Night/Amaranth/Ritual of the Bitter > Rose/Absolution for the Diabolist. *nods* Right on the money. When possible, follow the "KISS" rule. The first three should be all you need. Muaziz can do clean up afterwards. Regards, Noal

James Coupe wrote: > Halcyan 2 <halc...@aol.com> writes >>James, White Wolf should really hire you to make some new Thaumaturgy cards for >>the upcoming sets! ;) > > Mmmmm.... money. Hate to burst your bubble, James. I wouldn't be surprised if the card designers are volunteer players that are herded by LSJ. Note that I'm not a designer and if I was, you'd see the following Tremere from the Ann Arbor LARP VTES expansion: (He was a really cool character and I'll pay Steve, LSJ, whomever I need to, to get this added into a future set) Ashok Seth 6 cap Tremere dom pot ser THA Primogen Ashok Seth and his controller may play cards as if he was a Follower of Set Regards, Noal

Johan Lundstrom wrote: > > Chainsaw, Eyes of the Dead, Concealed Weapon. Twisting the Knife - now > *there's* wallpaper... Twisting the Knife is not wallpaper. If I remember correctly TtK is considered enviromental damage, thus it avoids several strike damage prevention card templates. Or maybe its simply wallpaper Raille

In message <3B772521...@none-of-your-fscking-business.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@none-of-your-fscking-business.com> writes >Ashok Seth >6 cap Tremere >dom pot ser THA >Primogen >Ashok Seth and his controller may play cards as if he was a Follower of >Set Eek. It has the *slight* difficult of being a 6 cap without three in clans, from either side, but I guess that's kinda the point. I'm also thinking that that looks a little on the slim side, points-wise. I'm not sure that the dual clan playing ability is worth a point. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3B772EEA...@mich.com>, Raille <rai...@mich.com> writes >Twisting the Knife is not wallpaper. If I remember correctly TtK is >considered enviromental damage, Not by current card text, it's dealt by the vampire. > thus it avoids several strike damage >prevention card templates. I'm not sure if it does, or not. I can't decide if the fact that it's dealt after the amount inflicted has been calculated makes it not part of the strike. In any case, an amount of damage could be inflicted by a vampire but not be considered to come from a strike, potentially. (Old text of Pulled Fangs, for instance.) [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: >>> Shadow Strike seems potentially very cool indeed. >> >>It is. I built a pitch deck around it that's quite nasty. It's still >>being tweaked somewhat, but the initial run had fair results. Think of >>it as Aid From Bats that you can pump up with Potence pre-range cards. > > The general lack of a good "Flash" card is moderately annoying. Shadow > Step is usable, but Monger 3.2 doesn't have it in Sabbat War, which is > also moderately annoying. True. Shadow Step would be nice to have more of. I question the wisdom that reprinted Twisting the Knife and not Derange or Shadow Step. In this case, however, you don't need it. I paired up Shadow Strike with Darkness Within which, at superior, has a maneuver. I found that to be enough in most cases. Regards, Noal

> >Ashok Seth > >6 cap Tremere > >dom pot ser THA > >Primogen > >Ashok Seth and his controller may play cards as if he was a Follower of > >Set > > Eek. It has the *slight* difficult of being a 6 cap without three in > clans, from either side, but I guess that's kinda the point. I'm also > thinking that that looks a little on the slim side, points-wise. I'm > not sure that the dual clan playing ability is worth a point. Well, first a little history. Ashok Seth was a character that I played in a Vampire LARP about 2-3 years ago. His character history was that he was a ghoul that was blood bound to a Setite and the Setite blackmailed a Tremere of some standing into embracing him. So...Ashok gets sent to Ann Arbor and, even though he's still quite loyal to the Setites, he somehow manages to become Primogen. (Jedi Mind Tricks are even more fun in LARPs) Anyway, he pulls a bunch of shenanigans and it took everyone quite a while to figure out that he's behind the Setites doing bad things to everyone. Between the pentacle necklace I was wearing being encircled by a snake and the last name of the character being an alternate spelling of "Set," I thought it would be obvious. Anyway...the card above is reflective of his stats, title and loyalties. Pointwise, he actually falls a little low. I figured 1 for non-Caitiff, 1 for Primogen, 4 for disciplines and .5 for ability. I'm not sure if you're supposed to round up or down, but he's not really worth paying 7 pool. To be honest, by the Sabbat formula he could be pot/ser/DOM/THA and still fit the above formula. Anyway, he'd fit right in a dom/pot/tha deck. With the new Giovanni, there's enough vampires with those disciplines now to make it a viable Bruise and Bleed combo. Serpenits/Dominate, Serpentis/Potence and Serpentis/Thaumaturgy combos are starting to become doable and it's possible future expansions may make them even more so. At this point, more Camarilla vampires with the standard clan disciplines aren't really needed. It's going to be bizarre combinations like Ashok's that will help the game in the long run. Regards, Noal

> Chainsaw, Eyes of the Dead, Concealed Weapon. Twisting the Knife - now > *there's* wallpaper... As someone else pointed out, Concealed Weapon is one of the few "total wallpaper" cards. Chainsaw, I believe, is the other. TtK isn't worth the blood, cardslot, or card stock it's printed on, but it's not strictly wallpaper. As I remember seeing a looong time ago, Eyes of the Dead isn't technically wallpaper, either, just very, very weak. You can play it AND the Deadliest Sin for +4 intercept against diablerie with only Necromancy. Other than Chainsaw and Concealed Weapon, are there any other "true wallpaper" cards, where there is alternate card that gives an identical effect but is equal or superior in every other way? -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta

>True. Shadow Step would be nice to have more of. I question the wisdom >that reprinted Twisting the Knife and not Derange or Shadow Step. Well, as LSJ has said before, they needed to balance things discipline-wise and there weren't many other Potence rares to choose from. (It wouldn't have done to print an unequal number of Dementation, Obtenebration, and Potence rares). Halcyan 2

>>Ashok Seth >>6 cap Tremere >>dom pot ser THA >>Primogen >>Ashok Seth and his controller may play cards as if he was a Follower of >>Set > >Eek. It has the *slight* difficult of being a 6 cap without three in >clans, from either side, but I guess that's kinda the point. I'm also >thinking that that looks a little on the slim side, points-wise. I'm >not sure that the dual clan playing ability is worth a point. I agree that he wouldn't be worth it in most cases. In a plain Tremere deck, you're paying 6 pool for "dom THA" (unless you rarely use the potence or serpentis). The Primogen doesn't help too much, and the special is worthless since you can't really count on him being in play. In a plain FoS deck, you're paying 6 pool for "ser" (and maybe the dom or THA if you're playing with that). The special doesn't matter much since your other minions can play the necessary cards. The only cases he might be useful in is weird decks like the "dom ser tha" someone suggested. To corner-case of a vampire to be useful. Even though the current characterization matches his stats, as with the VTES incarnations of canon characters, we should probably just settle for something close. I would actually prefer: Ashok Seth 6-cap Tremere DOM ser THA Primogen FoS ability. And even that isn't that great. Compared to Reverend Blackwood, you trade "obf" for "ser" and you have a near-worthless special compared to a really cool one. Halcyan 2

Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message news:<B79CDFCE.6674%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>... > Other than Chainsaw and Concealed Weapon, are there any other "true > wallpaper" cards, where there is alternate card that gives an identical > effect but is equal or superior in every other way? Protracted Investment. Really wallpaper even moreso than Chainsaw or Conceiled Weapon. Secret Horde made PI complitely obsolete. You can have the same effect as PI with Secret Horde by assigning 3 to the cost X of Secret Horde. Concealed weapon is sometimes played as disciplineless card (as a house rule). The card itself makes me wonder if it was intended as such, because there is no superior version of the effect on the card and only minion is mentioned not a vampire (and there are no other minions than vampires with obfuscate to date). 'Concealed Weapon: Combat, Obfuscate Equip this minion with a weapon card from your hand at the beginning of a round. Pay weapon's equip cost from blood pool, as normal. The weapon cannot cost more than 2 pool or do more than 4 damage.' The card without obfuscate requirement would give room for nice ally with guns decks ;). (with some pretty weird combos - like hell hound with concealed magnum or shotgun ;). Jukka

> The card without obfuscate requirement would give room for nice ally > with guns decks ;). (with some pretty weird combos - like hell hound > with concealed magnum or shotgun ;). Probably exactly the reason why it ISN'T a disciplineless card. Too powerful for a "War Ghoul with guns" deck (how bad would THAT be!) or a "Renegade Garou with guns" deck (!). With there being some kickass new equiptment out there (Sniper Rifle, Starshell Grenade Launcher, etc), and some monster new allies, this is the kind of thing that could really upset the game. DH

In message <3B775E04...@none-of-your-fscking-business.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@none-of-your-fscking-business.com> writes >Pointwise, he actually falls a little low. I figured 1 for non-Caitiff, >1 for Primogen Ah, somehow I missed the Primogen - not too shabby. So far as I can tell from LSJ's posting, the whole Sabbat aberration of "1 point for non-Pander etc." has been thrown in the bin. A vampire 4 capacity or less gets a point less. I forget where the cut off is at the other end, for extra points - 7 now, I think. Purely from a game point of view (rather than inspiration), I'd be more tempted to go the whole Dylan/Thomas Thorne route, combined with Stefano Giovanni aus dom pot ser tha Primogen Dual use - putting it still around 6.5 points. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <GwOxREDv...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> writes >Purely from a game point of view (rather than inspiration), I'd be more >tempted to go the whole Dylan/Thomas Thorne route, combined with Stefano >Giovanni > >aus dom pot ser tha >Primogen or, as I mentioned Stefano, a one blood for a vote deal, together with the dual. [ quoted text not captured ]

pr...@iki.fi (Jukka Lindström) wrote in news:ed79416b.01081...@posting.google.com: > Concealed weapon is sometimes played as disciplineless card (as a > house rule). The card itself makes me wonder if it was intended as > such, because there is no superior version of the effect on the card > and only minion is mentioned not a vampire (and there are no other > minions than vampires with obfuscate to date). While we never have gotten any official word from the original design teams, it's been pretty much a given for some time that it definitely WAS intended to be disciplineless; the fact that there are 11 Obfuscate cards in the original Jyhad set, while there are 10 of all others (once you correct Blood Rage to Thaumaturgy instead of Fortitude), indicates that something was wrong. That, the use of "minion", and the fact that it is just a weaker Disguised Weapon indicates that it was supposed to be disciplineless. Best guess is that it was intended to be used by the Brujah allies to pull out Saturday Night Specials and such that had been fetched by an Arms Dealer, and by the Brujah and Toreador themselves. > The card without obfuscate requirement would give room for nice ally > with guns decks ;). (with some pretty weird combos - like hell hound > with concealed magnum or shotgun ;). Yeah, but it would make some clans -far- too powerful now; the addition of weapons like Crimson Sentinel, for example, that fall underneath its cost requirement? Oops. Nobody wants to see Ambrosius whip that thing out, for example. He's bad enough with a Meat Hook. (which also falls under its cost requirement).

> >> The card without obfuscate requirement would give room for nice ally >> with guns decks ;). (with some pretty weird combos - like hell hound >> with concealed magnum or shotgun ;). > >Yeah, but it would make some clans -far- too powerful now; the addition of >weapons like Crimson Sentinel, for example, that fall underneath its cost >requirement? Oops. Nobody wants to see Ambrosius whip that thing out, for >example. He's bad enough with a Meat Hook. (which also falls under its >cost requirement). I'd like to see excatly that! ;o) My opinion is that equipment is underused - if concealed weapon was disciplineless there would be a lot more interesting tacticts evolving around equipment. It would also make all the anti-equipment cards more played. After all, only three of the clans DON'T have access to a anti-weapon card. (Malk, !Malk and Setites). How many of you really include cards like Fast Hands, Shattering Blow or even the Machine Blitz? A better concealed weapon would certenly make the game more interesting! *ducks for cover* /Henrik Isaksson

After all, only three of the clans DON'T > have access to a anti-weapon card. (Malk, !Malk and Setites). Make that 2: Lucian: 10, AUS cel DOM OBF tha, Malkavian Malkavian Justicar: Lucian may steal equipment as a strike. >A better concealed weapon would certenly make the game more >interesting! *ducks for cover* Interesting, yes. But it'll make weapons too powerfull. Remember the 'minion' in the card text: an ally could use it too. Nephandus with an RPG launcher is quite scary. Or allies with White Phosphorus Grenades, enhanced with Mass Reality. Jeroen

>>A better concealed weapon would certenly make the game more >>interesting! *ducks for cover* > >Interesting, yes. But it'll make weapons too powerfull. Remember the >'minion' in the card text: an ally could use it too. Nephandus with an RPG >launcher is quite scary. Or allies with White Phosphorus Grenades, enhanced >with Mass Reality. > If I were to counterprove my own thesis, I would actually pick some more scary combo than "a Nephandus with an RPG launcher" - say a Muddled Vampirehunter with a Ivory Bow. But I really don't see any other combo that would be /too/ scary. As I said before, weapons (and also allies) would become better cards => more players would play with them => more players include anti-weaponcards. I have noticed that a lot of people on this newsgroup think that weapons and allies suck in general. And yet you are afraid of making them better. Why? /Henrik

> I have noticed that a lot of people on this newsgroup think that weapons and > allies suck in general. And yet you are afraid of making them better. Why? I don't. I think Allies are some of the most fun you can get in a game! War Ghouls! Renegade Garous! Nephandus! Escapeed Mentalists! All great fun. Weapons have their uses, but recent thinking has seen that games don't last nearly as long as the designers maybe intended. Weapons are great permenants and they are really useful in the long game. However, if you can rush in a use, say, torn signpost, Increased Strength, immortal grapple, pushing the limits (and decapitate?) to remove a vampire, why would you take the same action (and some pool) to equip with a weapon that will only do 2-4 damage? If you include cards to get you OUT of trouble, why use weapons if you can use Majesty or other S:CE to get you out of trouble. All these options may use more cards, but they are more reliable in what they do, and if the game doesn't last so long, you can afford the cards if they so what they are suppsoed to. Weapons cost and aren't nearly as flexible - immortal grapple is free and means that someone can't S:CE. No weapon can reliably get around S:CE at this stage. This and the oppertunity cost of getting the weapon in the first place means weapons aren't that popular. DH

hamdamcwa wrote: > Weapons have their uses, but recent thinking has seen that games don't > last nearly as long as the designers maybe intended. Weapons are great > permenants and they are really useful in the long game. However, if > Actually weapons are great in a weenie-attrition-deck, but yes, you need to be able to prolong the game. What weapons are really useful varies between deck-ideas. With a lot of small vampires I'd go for Saturday Nights Specials or Deer Rifles. Decks with Celerity and Obfuscate/Auspex can make good use of more expensive weapons together with Blur and Hidden Lurker/Fast Reaction. Beware though, anything equipped with a 3+ pool card will be a target as noone is happy about a vamp being able to deal out 9-12 blood damage with only one combat-card. Weapons are also a nice complement to the decks being able to play S:CE as you often have the opportunity to choose between getting out of combat or deal damage. I've seen a tendency that it takes about as long time to get properly armed as it takes for the surrounding vamps to get low on blood. Sten During -- NetGuide Scandinavia AB http://www.netg.se/ Tankegangen 4 in...@netg.se 417 56 Goteborg Phone:+46 - (0)31 - 50 79 45 Sweden Fax: +46 - (0)31 - 50 79 39

"Henrik" <henri...@spray.se> wrote in news:9la10k$7rifn$1...@ID-99227.news.dfncis.de: >>Interesting, yes. But it'll make weapons too powerfull. Remember the >>'minion' in the card text: an ally could use it too. Nephandus with an >>RPG launcher is quite scary. Or allies with White Phosphorus >>Grenades, enhanced with Mass Reality. > > If I were to counterprove my own thesis, I would actually pick some > more scary combo than "a Nephandus with an RPG > launcher" - say a Muddled Vampirehunter with a Ivory Bow. But I really > don't see any other combo that would be /too/ scary. As I said before, > weapons (and also allies) would become better cards => more players > would play with them => more players include anti-weaponcards. So now you either include X, or anti-X, or die horribly. I would select a War Ghoul with a Meat Hook, myself, as a nice scary combo. Ambrosius with a Crimson Sentinel isn't too pleasant either. Muddles with an Ivory Bow is highly overpowered; with a Sengir Dagger is probably worse. You really haven't thought this through all the way, and it HAS come up before... not to mention what happens when you let a bunch of Celerity weenies all pull Bang Nakh out of their pants. Part of the problem would be the allies, part of the problem would be the CEL vampires... part of the problem is just that the game has had multiple expansions now that did NOT allow for Concealed Weapon, which they needed to. > I have noticed that a lot of people on this newsgroup think that > weapons and allies suck in general. And yet you are afraid of making > them better. Why? Setting aside the obvious troll (we AREN'T afraid of making them better)... again, you've misjudged the current game. They need to get a little bit better. But this is not the right way to do it, because then they'll become overpowered. Wrong answer.

Wallpaper? How about this rare? Conquer the Beast Animalism Combat card No cost Only usable before the beginning of combat. You get 1 press each round, only usable to continue combat. You are obliged to use this press and cannot use equipment. This continues until 3 rounds pass with no cards played. SUP: As above, but the presses are optional. Compare this to the common Trap Trap Combat Card No cost Card Text: Only usable before range is determined on the first round. During the press step, if any Methuselah has played a card earlier in the current round or during the two previous rounds, the Trap automatically provides a press to continue (either combatant can press to end). Note that at minor Trap is inherently better than Conquer. At superior the presses are optional, but does that compensate for the loss of the ability of equipment? Not in my estimation. Animalism got rooked out of a good rare with this chaff. Matt

"jeroen rombouts" <jeroen....@pandora.be> wrote in message news:<9kZd7.51993$ye.24...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>... > After all, only three of the clans DON'T > > have access to a anti-weapon card. (Malk, !Malk and Setites). > > Make that 2: > Lucian: 10, AUS cel DOM OBF tha, Malkavian > Malkavian Justicar: Lucian may steal equipment as a strike. No make that 1: Personal Scourge Strike: 1 damage, only usable at close range. This damage cannot be prevented by equipment or cards that require fortitude. If the opposing vampire attempts to strike with a weapon this round, he or she does no damage. SUP: As above, with an optional press, only usable to end combat. > > >A better concealed weapon would certenly make the game more > >interesting! *ducks for cover* > > Interesting, yes. But it'll make weapons too powerfull. Remember the > 'minion' in the card text: an ally could use it too. Nephandus with an RPG > launcher is quite scary. Or allies with White Phosphorus Grenades, enhanced > with Mass Reality. A Nephandus can't get out an RPG Launcher with Concealed Weapon because it does more than 4 damage. I think it wouldn't be too unbalancing if an ally could use Concealed Weapon. Weapons cost pool and allies can be stolen and killed (usually relatively easily) through many ways, so equipping them and often making them even more pool expensive is at a risk.

"Matt Latham" <mla...@diamondtoolmfg.com> wrote in news:9lbbq8$h6m$1...@nntp1-cm.news.eni.net: > Wallpaper? How about this rare? > > Conquer the Beast > SUP: As above, but the presses are optional. > > Note that at minor Trap is inherently better than Conquer. At superior > the presses are optional, but does that compensate for the loss of the > ability of equipment? Not in my estimation. You're Animalism. What do you care about equipment? You have Raven Spies, Wolf Companions, and a Murder of Crows if you want. The only equipment you're going to be bothered by losing is your Laptop, and it doesn't matter too much in combat anyway. Conquer the Beast kicks mucho ass in a deck based around CtB/Carrion Crows/Song of Serenity, simply because you CAN get out of your own Trap if you're going to get splashed on round 2. ANI/for isn't that difficult to find (Gangrel, Ravnos, AND some Nossies), so it's entirely realistic to have a few Fortitude prevention cards in to save yourself from surprise damage; burn your prevent card against the Potence deck, then use the "optional" in that press to save yourself. > Animalism got rooked out of a good rare with this chaff. You didn't think it all the way through, I'm afraid. I'll take all your Conquers though if you don't want 'em. Got some lovely Traps I can sell you.

I couldn't find the original post that said this, but had to reply. > > No offense to Pat, but the Giovanni have the same impact as the > > tremere, bleed with tricks. As for the others still sucking, you did > > note that Dave got to the finals of the Qualifier Tournement at Gencon > > with a Assamite deck, and did well in the final He did not do well in the final. He did NO damage to his prey, either via bleeds or via combat. As a matter of fact, the only combat he entered with his prey left him in torpor and the opposing vampire ready (Arms of the Abyss, Entombment). The most harmful thing he did to his prey the entire game was to give Ur-Shulgi's votes to Fazio's Toreador deck to defend the Legendary Vampire. I speak as his prey that stayed in until time. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

jo...@algonet.se (Johan Lundstrom) wrote in message news:<3b7565cd...@news.algonet.se>... > Shadow Parasite is utter and complete wallpaper, though. And Rare. > What were they thinking? That decks built around it could win tables. See this deck as an example of one that has never failed to gain victory points, and often gains three. http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/shadow_parasite.htm That effects from the role-playing game should make appearances as cards. See Clanbook: Lasombra for a description. Rare, because not everyone is playing Lasombra or Kiasyd, so you can trade it for something you want to someone will to play the card correctly. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <9e10847c.0108...@posting.google.com>, hamdamcwa <dave...@hotmail.com> writes >Weapons have their uses, but recent thinking has seen that games don't >last nearly as long as the designers maybe intended. IIRC, the reverse is true - though this was noted during design. The actual creators tended to be far faster, bloody and ruthless in their games, whereas players tended to be more careful and plotting. Constructs such as the edge and, I think, pool for ousting were designed to try and counteract that, to some extent. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F You scumbag, you maggot, you cheap lousy faggot B457CA213D7E6 Happy Christmas your arse, I pray God it's our last 68C3695D623D5D

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:Xns90FD785C...@198.99.146.10... [ quoted text not captured ] Hrm.. I didn't think this all the way through? Why play this over Trap? On the off chance that you will have superior animalism and hence the presses are optional? If you build a deck to handle Trap-like effects, odds are you are ready to handle the consequences that the trap could go bad (like presses to end from an Aid from Bats or some such) Sure, you can build your deck with superior animalism in mind, but I don't see how this is superior enough to Trap to warrent a rare slot (and hence trading for it as a rare). So, if you want to trade me rares that don't duplicate, with little deviation, the power of a common card, I'd be happy to. You send me all your Behind You! and I'll send you all my Conquer the Beast. Matt

"Matt Latham" <mla...@diamondtoolmfg.com> wrote in news:9lbjsu$n7p$1...@nntp1-cm.news.eni.net: > "Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:Xns90FD785C...@198.99.146.10... >> You didn't think it all the way through, I'm afraid. I'll take all >> your Conquers though if you don't want 'em. Got some lovely Traps I >> can sell you. > > Hrm.. I didn't think this all the way through? Why play this over > Trap? On the off chance that you will have superior animalism and > hence the presses are optional? If you build a deck to handle Off-chance? If you're playing ANI combat, you HAVE superior Animalism, or your Song of Serenity is inferior and you don't want a Trap anyway. > Trap-like effects, odds are you are ready to handle the consequences > that the trap could go bad (like presses to end from an Aid from Bats I don't have to include Aid from Bats to save myself if I'm using Conquer the Beast. This leaves more room for other, more useful cards. And if I'm using Aid from Bats, I don't need a Trap; I have a press already. > or some such) Sure, you can build your deck with superior animalism in > mind, but I don't see how this is superior enough to Trap to warrent a > rare slot (and hence trading for it as a rare). Perhaps it's a rare because it didn't need to be a common -- you weren't going to use it THAT much instead of Trap? Rarity does NOT equal power in V:TES, and never has. And frankly, you're SUPPOSED to build your deck to the disciplines you require. If you must have superior Animalism, find a way for everyone to HAVE superior Animalism. If inferior is fine, then inferior is fine, but you then allow in deckbuilding for what you're giving up. > So, if you want to trade me rares that don't duplicate, with little > deviation, the power of a common card, I'd be happy to. You send me > all your Behind You! and I'll send you all my Conquer the Beast. I don't trade valuable cards for cards that people think are worthless. Since I know what you think of the card, I'm going to downgrade it to "uncommon" (or less, if you need a specific common) for trading purposes. Feel free to ask for something that matches YOUR value of the card. If you think it sucks so much, you're going to have to give me something to "take it off your hands." I'm just letting you know that I'll be glad to do it; but you can forget about getting any kind of steal (for yourself) on it. Example: Car salesman tells you this car is the best thing he's ever seen, no matter what he thinks of it. Why? Because he wants to get a GOOD price for it, not what he thinks it's actually worth. How many cars do you think he'd sell if he said "aw, it's a lemon, it's only a little bit better than X car, and it's uncomfortable too"? Do you think he could justify charging the same as a Ferrari for that car? He'd get laughed out of the lot. Now what happens when someone comes in and buys the car, and it turns out to be a "classic" that gets resold for four times its buying price? He still couldn't have offered 4x for that car with that sales pitch, because he's being too honest. There's a reason salesmen lie.

<snip cards> > Note that at minor Trap is inherently better than Conquer. At superior the > presses are optional, but does that compensate for the loss of the ability > of equipment? Not in my estimation. I'd say so. How often do you want to be able to get out of your trap because the opponant did something you didn't expect, vs. how often do you want multiple rounds of combat with an equipment card? The long and short is, if you use equipment, use trap, if you don't (my current toy is imposing phantasm, conquer, apparition, carrion crows) then having the ability to say no, combat will not continue again is important. > > Animalism got rooked out of a good rare with this chaff. My emails up at the top, if you don't like um, send um to me, they'll get a good home. <grin> Cameron

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > Purely from a game point of view (rather than inspiration), I'd be more > tempted to go the whole Dylan/Thomas Thorne route, combined with Stefano > Giovanni > > aus dom pot ser tha > Primogen > Dual use - putting it still around 6.5 points. Except that the Ashok Seth character had _no_ Auspex at all, but did have multiple paths of Thamaturgy (incl. Path of Corruption *grin*). So, I think the pot ser DOM THA would be fine since it wouldn't hose him for Tremere (DOM/THA and a Primogen at 6 isn't bad), he'd fit really well in a dom/pot/tha deck _and_ he'd still ring in at 6.5 points. In any event, we'll prolly never get to see him made (*pout*) but I think the bizarre discipline combos should be explored more in future sets as well as the dual clan usage. Could make for some really cool decks. Regards, Noal

(snip the self-aggrandizing explanation of sales...) I've had such success trading because I trade to the value of the person receiving the cards. Since you seem to value CtB highly, and I do not, of course I'll trade it to you for cards that many don't value highly yet I do. (I was stabbing in the dark with Behind You, it could have been almost any discipline-based rare that some consider chaff) So did I tip my hand concerning how I value CtB? Sure. I wasn't the one who made smart ass comments about taking them off my hands. I never said I was offended by the card, just that I thought that a rare discipline-based card would be significantly better than the common disciplineless card. You've made a good point that rarity in Jyhad doesn't always mean more powerful, but it does often enough to warrant reviewing the card. Matt

"Matt Latham" <mla...@diamondtoolmfg.com> wrote in news:9lbrii$ce2$1...@nntp2-cm.news.eni.net: > I've had such success trading because I trade to the value of the > person receiving the cards. Since you seem to value CtB highly, and I However, you actually have no idea how much I value CtB. My position was simply that it is NOT, in fact, wallpaper, and fits well in a certain style of deck. It is a card of limited use, simply because its effect is of limited use; you must prepare for it while building in the same way you would prepare a Trap, and Trap itself is of limited use. > do not, of course I'll trade it to you for cards that many don't value > highly yet I do. (I was stabbing in the dark with Behind You, it could > have been almost any discipline-based rare that some consider chaff) There is no "chaff" in this game, though (barring Concealed Weapon). There are only cards that people haven't figured out how to use yet. I tried to make myself clear about a month ago regarding this, and I'm going to have to repeat myself here. Someone who intends to throw out comments about how "X card sucks and is wallpaper" is just ASKING to be proven wrong. Is Unflinching Persistence chaff? After all, you never see it played. Is a Wolf Companion chaff? Murder of Crows provides the same effect, but at both close AND long range. Wolf Companion's extra life doesn't matter since you can't target retainers at close range anyway... right? Is Well-Aimed Car chaff? > So did I tip my hand concerning how I value CtB? Sure. I wasn't the > one who made smart ass comments about taking them off my hands. I You are, however, the one who made smart-ass comments about how "animalism got rooked out of a good rare." I simply pointed out that CtB IS, in fact, a worthwhile card, and pointed out that 'rare' doesn't mean power. > never said I was offended by the card, just that I thought that a rare > discipline-based card would be significantly better than the common > disciplineless card. You've made a good point that rarity in Jyhad The ability to remove oneself from a Trap you're going to lose is pretty damn powerful. Combat decks can't afford to lose fights. > doesn't always mean more powerful, but it does often enough to warrant > reviewing the card. Why review it? It was last printed ... um... in Jyhad/V:TES? So it's rare... so what? I'd have actually rather had it non-rare, so I'd have more of them. That's MY objection to it being in a rare slot; not that it "took up a power-card slot and wasn't a power-card", because that simply ain't the way rarity works in V:TES. The cards in the rare slots should, in general, be cards you aren't going to want TOO many of. Witness Mythic Form, Week of Nightmares, etc.

> Why review it? It was last printed ... um... in Jyhad/V:TES? So it's > rare... so what? I'd have actually rather had it non-rare, so I'd have > more of them. That's MY objection to it being in a rare slot; not that it > "took up a power-card slot and wasn't a power-card", because that simply > ain't the way rarity works in V:TES. The cards in the rare slots should, > in general, be cards you aren't going to want TOO many of. Witness Mythic > Form, Week of Nightmares, etc. That is a recent phenomenon. Much of the base set rarity was based on the Magic model (ie rare = more powerful). It is that standard, and not the recent standard, that I am judging it's relative power to. Matt

[ quoted text not captured ] As I recall: The base set (Jyhad) was designed with the idea that all cards should be balanced and that rarity is not a balancing factor. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

> Is Unflinching Persistence chaff? After all, you never see it played. Of course I've seen it played. Its the only fortitude-based maneuver, so if you were playing, say, a Trap based fortitude deck (as I saw this past weekend) and your only way to damage within the trap was for one hand damage, you'd want the Unflinching Persistance to counter opposing maneuvers. This is not even corner case. I saw a Lazvernius deck play with them too... > Is a Wolf Companion chaff? Murder of Crows provides the same effect, but > at both close AND long range. Wolf Companion's extra life doesn't matter > since you can't target retainers at close range anyway... right? The thing about Wolf Companion is availability. I own 3 Murder of Crows because it was rare. I own 20Wolf Companions because they were uncommon. If range is not an issue and I have a deckstyle that needs such retainers then I will use all my crows and splash Wolves to make up the difference. > Is Well-Aimed Car chaff? Arguable. I'd say no because its one more damage at basic Potence with the same restrictions as Sewer Lid. Its built with the same template as Growing Fury, which I doubt sees much play and again is borderline chaff. All of this can get re-defined when we get a FOR/POT clan like the Gargoyles. I play with Cars in a deck with Lids for style reasons, for art reasons, and because "I chuck a car" is a lot of fun to say, and VTES is a damn game played for fun. I am exceedingly openminded when it comes to cards, and have a penchant for making decent decks out of what others consider weak, but I still believe that CtB is corner-case better (and similarly corner-case weaker) than Trap, a common disciplineless card. Perhaps chaff was a bit strong.

"Matt Latham" <mla...@diamondtoolmfg.com> wrote in message news:<9lbrii$ce2$1...@nntp2-cm.news.eni.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] Matt, I think Derek has the right idea here. By the way, I value War Ghouls very little, so I'm sure Derek won't have any trouble trading them for these Kine Resources Contested, which I put high value on!(can you ever have enough?) Anyway, let me know when you want to make the swap Derek? You always base you trades by what something is worth to the other person, right? Aaron.

> So now you either include X, or anti-X, or die horribly. I would select a > War Ghoul with a Meat Hook, myself, as a nice scary combo. Ambrosius with > a Crimson Sentinel isn't too pleasant either. Muddles with an Ivory Bow is > highly overpowered; with a Sengir Dagger is probably worse. Why would I want to pay pool to give him a Sengir Dagger, when I can give him a Wooden Stake for free? If you can burn someone outright, he even gets to keep the stake :-) - Matt

Derek wrote: >>Is Unflinching Persistence chaff? After all, you never see it played.>> I'm just jumping in here 'cause it seems like a fun conversation :-) Unflinching Persistance? You never see it played? It is the only Fortitude manuver, the meat and drink of the Pot/For deck. And it prevents damage. It is certainly useful. And that cool picture! >>Is a Wolf Companion chaff? Murder of Crows provides the same effect, but at both close AND long range. Wolf Companion's extra life doesn't matter since you can't target retainers at close range anyway... right?>> Yeah, pretty much chaff. I can't think of any situation where I would use Wolf Companion instead of Murder of Crows. Unless I was really afraid of Weather Control... >>Is Well-Aimed Car chaff?>> I'd never use it. It is funny, but the conditionality makes it simply much less effective than another Sewer Lid. Sure, rarely you'll have it at the right time after a press into the second round, but most of the time you'll draw it and discard it, wishing it was a Sewer Lid. Are people actually talking trash about Behind You as a crappy rare? Yeah, ok, you could have got a Temptation of Greater Power instead of that Behind You, but Behind You is an incredibly utilitarian card that goes in countless decks with Obfuscate. CtB, while generally less utilitarian than Trap, is certainly a useful card in the right decks. Other than Concealed Weapon and Chainsaw, I can't think of any truly wallpaper cards (now that Peace of Khetemon is no longer simply worse than Banish), but cards that come close in my eyes are: -Tourtured Confession. Yeah, yeah, I know, in the right deck, this card is gonna be gold, and whatever. I'd never actually use it in a constructed deck (sure, I'd play it in sealed), and if I ever considered using it in a constructed deck, I'd have someone talk me down from the bad trip. -Growing Fury. The conditionality of this card makes it just as useless as Well Aimed Car. Sure, again, in sealed it might be useable, but in constructed, I can't ever see putting this in a deck over US or PtL. -Twisting the Knife. So only marginally useful (you didn't have any more Pulled Fangs you could use, let alone something even better?) that I can't see it ever being placed in a constructed deck. I can't really think of any more total ass cards--there are lots and lots of incredibly corner case cards, but in the appropriate corner case, they are certainly worth using (like Seize the Advantage, for instance). Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/bakija6 "The giant robot, with bird like head. The giant robot, he is my friend." -The Aquabats!

Noal McDonald wrote: >Mye experience has been that the top 4 most needed Paths are (in order >of greatest to least need): > >1) Path of Paradox >2) Path of Blood >3) Path of Metamorphosis >4) Path of Night I'd agree with that, and follow (far below PoN) with 5) Path of the Feral Heart 6) Path of Typhon

Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote: >> Chainsaw, Eyes of the Dead, Concealed Weapon. Twisting the Knife - now >> *there's* wallpaper... > > As someone else pointed out, Concealed Weapon is one of the few "total >wallpaper" cards. Chainsaw, I believe, is the other. Chainsaw isn't a melee weapon, which makes it slightly functionally different from Gas Powered chainsaw. >TtK isn't worth the blood, cardslot, or card stock it's printed on, but it's not strictly >wallpaper. It's wallpaper alright (in the respect that that's the only thing it's good for), but not in the same way as Concealed Weapon. > As I remember seeing a looong time ago, Eyes of the Dead isn't >technically wallpaper, either, just very, very weak. You can play it AND >the Deadliest Sin for +4 intercept against diablerie with only Necromancy. Sure. It's still wallpaper. > Other than Chainsaw and Concealed Weapon, are there any other "true >wallpaper" cards, where there is alternate card that gives an identical >effect but is equal or superior in every other way? Protracted Investment, as mentioned elsewhere. Peace of Khetamon, before Banishment was changed.

On 14 Aug 2001 14:12:51 -0700, MChir...@netscape.net (TwitchBot) wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Wooden Stake has been errated to not do aggravated damage. http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Cardlist_W.html#Wooden_Stake War Ghouls were too effective with broken chairs it would seem. ------------------------------- Ethan Burrow - Prince of Austin saa...@yahoo.com http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/

Aaron wrote: >>By the way, I value War Ghouls very little, so I'm sure Derek won't have any trouble trading them for these Kine Resources Contested, which I put high value on!(can you ever have enough?)>> But, but, but, if Kine Recources Contested and Conservative Agitation didn't exist, pure vote strategy couldn't be made to work! Voting is not a main strategy! It relies on only 2 cards! Raaaaaaa! Yeah, yeah. I'm an ass. :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

The Lasombra wrote: > Johan Lundstrom wrote: > > Shadow Parasite is utter and complete wallpaper, though. And Rare. > > What were they thinking? > > That decks built around it could win tables. > See this deck as an example of one that has never failed to gain > victory points, and often gains three. > > http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/shadow_parasite.htm Just about any card is cool to use in a casual play environment - if only to get some use out of all the cards you own. However, Thrown Sewer Lid is the clear winner by comparison. - Ben Peal, Prince of Boston fu...@mindstorm.com

> Chainsaw isn't a melee weapon, which makes it slightly functionally > different from Gas Powered chainsaw. Slightly? Minor understatement there. Functionally, it's more expensive than the Gas-Powered Chainsaw, does the same damage, and can't be modified by the various "strike with melee at +x" cards. Why play with it? What benefit does it's not being a melee weapon provide? Even in comparison to the Jyhad/VTES days, when Gas-Powereds weren't in print -- it cost the same as a Sawed-Off Shotgun, did the same amount of damage, and couldn't be played at range. It was wallpaper THEN. > It's wallpaper alright (in the respect that that's the only thing it's > good for), but not in the same way as Concealed Weapon. The concept behind the card is sound -- additional damage, much like Pulled Fangs, after strikes. Unfortunately, they added a minimum damage level, a required strike type (neither of these are problems for POT decks, but it does reduce utility of the card). If it didn't cost a blood -- i'd use it. But I can't rationalize spending a blood for one more point of damage except in very limited circumstances (need one more to play the disarm/send the vamp into torpor) -- and I always evaluate those circumstances are rare enough to warrant leaving the card out of eveyr POT deck I build. > Protracted Investment, as mentioned elsewhere. Made wallpaper by more recent cards. It provided a slight bonus over Short Terms during the Jyhad/VTES days, but with Secret Horde, I agree -- wallpaper. Fanboy

> Unflinching Persistance? You never see it played? It is the only Fortitude > manuver, the meat and drink of the Pot/For deck. And it prevents damage. It is > certainly useful. And that cool picture! Hey, it's a godsend in POT/FOR Car-tossing decks. That and Indomitability. Also, with Entombment and Coma out there, manuevers to avoid going to close range against Lasombra and Malk Antis are a GOOD thing. > Yeah, pretty much chaff. I can't think of any situation where I would use Wolf > Companion instead of Murder of Crows. Unless I was really afraid of Weather > Control... Availability was mentioned earlier. I don't have that many Murders -- and if I'm playing ANI retainers, I want more environmental damage than that -- so I add Wolves. > >>Is Well-Aimed Car chaff?>> No! It's hard to pull off, sure -- so is the RPG Launcher. Just because it's hard to use doesn't mean it's wallpaper. Is Drain Essence wallpaper because it has both conditionality and cost? No -- while you don't get any more from it than you would for a Taste -- your opponent loses twice as much. The same applies to the Car. Love the car. > Are people actually talking trash about Behind You as a crappy rare? Yeah, ok, > you could have got a Temptation of Greater Power instead of that Behind You, > but Behind You is an incredibly utilitarian card that goes in countless decks > with Obfuscate. CtB, while generally less utilitarian than Trap, is certainly > a useful card in the right decks. And fairly essential in Nos decks that shun combat. It's frustrating, I'll admit -- and celerity wastes decks that depend upon it -- but it's not a BAD card. Just limiting. > -Tourtured Confession. Yeah, yeah, I know, in the right deck, this card is > gonna be gold, and whatever. I'd never actually use it in a constructed deck > (sure, I'd play it in sealed), and if I ever considered using it in a > constructed deck, I'd have someone talk me down from the bad trip. If I truly want to see my opponents hand in constructed, I'll play Animalism or Auspex (Owl or Revelations/Pulse). Either that, or play with Cull the Herd (eats an action, but you might get something out of it). Fanboy

roans...@yahoo.com (Aaron) wrote in news:7ab27d37.01081...@posting.google.com: > Matt, I think Derek has the right idea here. By the way, I value War > Ghouls very little, so I'm sure Derek won't have any trouble trading > them for these Kine Resources Contested, which I put high value > on!(can you ever have enough?) > > Anyway, let me know when you want to make the swap Derek? You always > base you trades by what something is worth to the other person, right? Correct, I do. And you're lying to me, by the way, so if you intend to get something for nothing out of me, you'll have to work a lot harder than that. Come on, you don't think it's THAT easy, do you? The analogy to a car salesman doesn't work in reverse. If he says he thinks it's the most valuable thing out there, he MIGHT be lying, you know he might be lying, and you don't ACTUALLY know any more than you did before he opened his flap. If he says it sucks, though, you KNOW he's telling the truth. =)

> > > > As someone else pointed out, Concealed Weapon is one of the few "total > >wallpaper" cards. Chainsaw, I believe, is the other. > > Chainsaw isn't a melee weapon, which makes it slightly functionally > different from Gas Powered chainsaw. > Compare it to Shotgun. both cost the same, one does 3 damage, one does 3R damage and can use ammo. That is why Chainsaw is wallpaper, not just because Gas-Powered Chainsaw is better. > > As I remember seeing a looong time ago, Eyes of the Dead isn't > >technically wallpaper, either, just very, very weak. You can play it AND > >the Deadliest Sin for +4 intercept against diablerie with only Necromancy. > > Sure. It's still wallpaper. Yeah, but in the example above it's the stackability that makes it slightly useful, unlike Chainsaw, which can't stack with Shotgun. Cameron

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20010813042722...@mb-mc.aol.com>... > >True. Shadow Step would be nice to have more of. I question the wisdom > >that reprinted Twisting the Knife and not Derange or Shadow Step. > > Well, as LSJ has said before, they needed to balance things discipline-wise and > there weren't many other Potence rares to choose from. (It wouldn't have done > to print an unequal number of Dementation, Obtenebration, and Potence rares). > > Halcyan 2 Fists of Death? even a Well Aimed Car Cameron

On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Johan Lundstrom wrote: > Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote: > > >> Chainsaw, Eyes of the Dead, Concealed Weapon. Twisting the Knife - now > >> *there's* wallpaper... > > > > As someone else pointed out, Concealed Weapon is one of the few "total > >wallpaper" cards. Chainsaw, I believe, is the other. > > Chainsaw isn't a melee weapon, which makes it slightly functionally > different from Gas Powered chainsaw. yes, worse. there are, as far as i know, only cards that help cards that are specifically melee weapons. Thus, in every case possible there would be no reason to choose chainsaw over gas powered, UNLESS you were worried about someone stealing the gas-powered and using it with some hand-or-melee weapon strike card. also, even in just the base jyhad set, chainsaw was inferior to Sawed-off Shotgun, which had the same restrictions, the same cost, the same damage, but was ranged. So if you were worried about the hand-or-melee-weapon strike card using weapon theif, you'd just use sawed-off instead of chainsaw. > > As I remember seeing a looong time ago, Eyes of the Dead isn't > >technically wallpaper, either, just very, very weak. You can play it AND > >the Deadliest Sin for +4 intercept against diablerie with only Necromancy. > > Sure. It's still wallpaper. hmmmm...maybe there are differing views of the definition of "wallpaper" floating around here. I think, strictly speaking, it means a card that there is some other card that does the same job, only better. However, i tend to perhaps flippantly use the term "wallpaper" as a synonym for "crap" > > Other than Chainsaw and Concealed Weapon, are there any other "true > >wallpaper" cards, where there is alternate card that gives an identical > >effect but is equal or superior in every other way? > > Protracted Investment, as mentioned elsewhere. > > Peace of Khetamon, before Banishment was changed. Banishment was only _ready_ vampires. if they were in torpor, you couldn't banish them. you had to bring them peace instead. and if you can't banish them it leaves them ready to be rescued and taking actions during their turn. but, if you had the votes to pass banishment, you'd have the votes to survive a bloodhunt. hmmm, unless you were using action modifiers to pass the vote, which you probably would be. and then you might not even have stealth to get past those that would want to block the diablerie. also, just as a question for the group as a whole: has anyone noticed less diablerie occuring now that you're not allowed to intentionally contest with yourself? salem.

Pat Ricochet skrev i meddelandet ... > >> Chainsaw, Eyes of the Dead, Concealed Weapon. Twisting the Knife - now >> *there's* wallpaper... > > As someone else pointed out, Concealed Weapon is one of the few "total >wallpaper" cards. Chainsaw, I believe, is the other. TtK isn't worth the >blood, cardslot, or card stock it's printed on, but it's not strictly >wallpaper. > As I remember seeing a looong time ago, Eyes of the Dead isn't >technically wallpaper, either, just very, very weak. You can play it AND >the Deadliest Sin for +4 intercept against diablerie with only Necromancy. > > Other than Chainsaw and Concealed Weapon, are there any other "true >wallpaper" cards, where there is alternate card that gives an identical >effect but is equal or superior in every other way? > Does anyone care do defend Code of Milan Suspended? Cardtype: Political Action Political Card-Worth 1 Vote. Called by any Sabbat vampire at +1 stealth. Select the Methuselah with the Edge. If this referendum is successful, that Methuselah burns 1 pool Let's see here... Requires sabbat vampire and gives the one that happens to sit on the edge to burn ONE pool??? This is bad! /Henrik

Derek Ray skrev i meddelandet ... >"Henrik" <henri...@spray.se> wrote in >news:9la10k$7rifn$1...@ID-99227.news.dfncis.de: > >>>Interesting, yes. But it'll make weapons too powerfull. Remember the >>>'minion' in the card text: an ally could use it too. Nephandus with an >>>RPG launcher is quite scary. Or allies with White Phosphorus >>>Grenades, enhanced with Mass Reality. >> >> If I were to counterprove my own thesis, I would actually pick some >> more scary combo than "a Nephandus with an RPG >> launcher" - say a Muddled Vampirehunter with a Ivory Bow. But I really >> don't see any other combo that would be /too/ scary. As I said before, >> weapons (and also allies) would become better cards => more players >> would play with them => more players include anti-weaponcards. > >So now you either include X, or anti-X, or die horribly. I like to include some bleedcapacity in my decks, as well as some bleeddefense, sometimes booth. I like to include some votepower in my decks, as well as some votedefense, sometimes booth. I like to include some combatforce in my decks, as well as some combatdefense, sometimes booth. See the analogy? Besides I don't believe a few allies with weapons would kill the game. If they'd be that über-powerful, people would already be kicking ass with those same allies getting their weapons the normal way. >I would select a >War Ghoul with a Meat Hook, myself, as a nice scary combo. Not possible, does 5 damage. And is a meathook on the Warghoul really that more freightening than including two Traps or Boxed In in your deck? You have to sit on the meathook and the CW on the same time, and then get into two combats with opponents not being able to S:CE and have more than 4 blood on them before the meathook is effective. A normal press also gets around potence and dodge. Oppurtunity cost. >Ambrosius with a Crimson Sentinel isn't too pleasant either. Wow! You've bled yourself for 5 to get an ally that get dodged, S:CEd or ShadowTwinned... Rock! >Muddles with an Ivory Bow is highly overpowered; with a Sengir Dagger is probably worse. Agreed, the Vampirehunter is a badass with the bow... Better block him when he's recruited! ;o) But it's not really that bulletproof combat either, a prevent will kill him instantly, as will dodge+additional strike and so on... And remember: It's one unique allie, combined with one (or perhaps two) unique weapon. Contest anyone? >You really haven't thought this through all the way, and it HAS come up >before... not to mention what happens when you let a bunch of Celerity >weenies all pull Bang Nakh out of their pants. Does this sound more or less frightening than potenceweenies massacring you with signposts, grapples and disarms? And in that case, in what way? >Part of the problem would >be the allies, part of the problem would be the CEL vampires... part of the >problem is just that the game has had multiple expansions now that did NOT >allow for Concealed Weapon, which they needed to. > >> I have noticed that a lot of people on this newsgroup think that >> weapons and allies suck in general. And yet you are afraid of making >> them better. Why? > >Setting aside the obvious troll (we AREN'T afraid of making them better)... >again, you've misjudged the current game. They need to get a little bit >better. But this is not the right way to do it, because then they'll >become overpowered. Wrong answer. I dispute! /Henrik Isaksson

In message <9ldjvq$8obnp$1...@ID-99227.news.dfncis.de>, Henrik <henri...@spray.se> writes >>Ambrosius with a Crimson Sentinel isn't too pleasant either. > >Wow! You've bled yourself for 5 to get an ally that get dodged, S:CEd or >ShadowTwinned... Rock! Purely for factual purposes (rather than diving into the debate), Shadow Twin (inferior) will be ignored by Ambrosius; it is not aggravated damage. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F You scumbag, you maggot, you cheap lousy faggot B457CA213D7E6 Happy Christmas your arse, I pray God it's our last 68C3695D623D5D

"....salem christ...." <s940...@bohm.anu.edu.au> wrote in message news:<Pine.SOL.3.90.1010815182930.1021A-100000@bohm>... > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Johan Lundstrom wrote: > > Chainsaw isn't a melee weapon, which makes it slightly functionally > > different from Gas Powered chainsaw. > > yes, worse. there are, as far as i know, only cards that help cards that > are specifically melee weapons. Thus, in every case possible there would > be no reason to choose chainsaw over gas powered, UNLESS you were worried > about someone stealing the gas-powered and using it with some > hand-or-melee weapon strike card. Hey you are forgetting the dreaded werewolf pack which is not affected by strikes from melee weapons. You could kill the whole pack with just one blow (they have 3 life!) ;) - wouldn't that be nice. The poor fellas wouldn't know even what hit them if it was muddles wearing that thing. Of course there is King of the mountain with which you can destroy a melee weapon, but not chainsaws. > > Sure. It's still wallpaper. > hmmmm...maybe there are differing views of the definition of "wallpaper" > floating around here. > I think, strictly speaking, it means a card that there is some other card > that does the same job, only better. > However, i tend to perhaps flippantly use the term "wallpaper" as a > synonym for "crap" Same here I use the term quite broadly. I use the term when the card really could be used as wallpaper material (or more like insulation material in walls, it should be pretty if used as wallpaper). That usually means crap. > also, just as a question for the group as a whole: has anyone noticed > less diablerie occuring now that you're not allowed to intentionally > contest with yourself? No. Our local playgroup has witnessed diablering as very very common action during the last months (the final nights are really here!). - Jukka

"Henrik" <henri...@spray.se> wrote in news:9ldjvq$8obnp$1...@ID-99227.news.dfncis.de: > Derek Ray skrev i meddelandet ... >>So now you either include X, or anti-X, or die horribly. > > See the analogy? You missed mine, though. If you have CW disciplineless, you enhance combat to an enormous degree; not just combat for allies. At this point, you now MUST put a significant amount of combat defense in, or die horribly. We're already at the point where you really should put a LITTLE defense in, but decks can still do quite well by ignoring it. But forcing people to put *lots* in brings us to the old X or anti-X, which has been long determined to be a Bad Thing in the game. > Besides I don't believe a few allies with weapons would kill the game. > If they'd be that über-powerful, people would already be kicking ass > with those same allies getting their weapons the normal way. > >>I would select a >>War Ghoul with a Meat Hook, myself, as a nice scary combo. > > Not possible, does 5 damage. And is a meathook on the Warghoul really Fine, then a Garou with a Meat Hook, which only does 3, but *can* do 6 since he has an additional strike. That's actually scarier than a War Ghoul, since you can include some Dodges in your deck for him to jump out of the way on the initial strike and STILL hit for 3... with a press. > that more freightening than including two Traps or Boxed In in your Permanents are ALWAYS scary. > deck? You have to sit on the meathook and the CW on the same time, and > then get into two combats with opponents not being able to S:CE and > have more than 4 blood on them before the meathook is effective. A > normal press also gets around potence and dodge. Oppurtunity cost. Speaking from long experience using Disguised Weapon, it is NOT that difficult to get a weapon card and DW in your hand at the same time, if you build the deck for it. Also note that Meat Hook is FREE, so you just give EVERYONE a Meat Hook as the additional cards get into your hand - they turn out to be excellent cycling ability for you. There is very little opportunity cost. >>Ambrosius with a Crimson Sentinel isn't too pleasant either. > > Wow! You've bled yourself for 5 to get an ally that get dodged, S:CEd > or ShadowTwinned... Rock! Shadow Twin is ineffective against Ambrosius, as he is immune to normal damage. Dodge is ineffective, since if I'm using Ambrosius, I'll be putting Traps in the deck; what does HE care? Your ONLY choice now is to S:CE, strike with aggravated damage, or die miserably. Do you see how this is broken? When you create a situation in combat where the only options are "S:CE or die", you have a problem. >>Muddles with an Ivory Bow is highly overpowered; with a Sengir Dagger >>is probably worse. > > Agreed, the Vampirehunter is a badass with the bow... Better block him > when he's recruited! ;o) But it's not really that bulletproof combat Mmm... Forgotten Labyrinth/Elder Impersonation. Your block fails. > either, a prevent will kill him instantly, as will dodge+additional > strike and so on... And remember: It's one unique allie, combined with Mmm... Fake Out. I'll have PLENTY in my Muddles/Bow deck, for just those reasons. Better be able to hit at long range, S:CE, or, well, die. I might even put Dead End Alleys in the deck, too, just to deal with pesky Dodgers. > one (or perhaps two) unique weapon. Contest anyone? Relying on contesting to fix a broken idea is very weak. >>You really haven't thought this through all the way, and it HAS come >>up before... not to mention what happens when you let a bunch of >>Celerity weenies all pull Bang Nakh out of their pants. > > Does this sound more or less frightening than potenceweenies > massacring you with signposts, grapples and disarms? And in that case, > in what way? Sarah Brando, 3-cap, strikes you for 9 by using one card: Blur. If she's scared, she uses two cards: Sideslip/Blur. Celerity weenies with permanent equipment are FAR less card-intensive than Potence weenies. Once a Potence deck runs out of cards, it's hosed. Once THIS deck runs out of cards, it's still hitting for 3 in every combat... and realize that by that point in time in the game, a strike for 3 will torporize most vampires, as vampires tend to end up empty or nearly-so. Of course, we could also have Sarah pull a .44 out of her pants. Superior Celerity is at its most fearsome when combined with guns... and it's not tough to put a bunch of skill cards in a deck to make sure that ALL your 2- and 3-caps end up with superior. When it's S:CE vs. permanents, S:CE loses in the end. Not to mention some combat utility toys Potence weenies don't have access to, like Flash. Maneuvers are effective against a Potence weenie deck; not so against a CEL weenie deck. You maneuver, I play Flash to come back to close. You maneuver again, I say "Fine, I press from the Flash." Not good for you. If you don't believe me, build a deck and see; it's what I did. We rapidly decided that CW did NOT need to be disciplineless; it's strong enough when the CEL weenies have to take actions to get their stuff and the actions don't get intercepted.

pd...@aol.comANTISPAM (Peter D Bakija) wrote in message news:<20010814203435...@mb-fq.aol.com>... > Aaron wrote: > >>By the way, I value War > Ghouls very little, so I'm sure Derek won't have any trouble trading > them for these Kine Resources Contested, which I put high value > on!(can you ever have enough?)>> > > But, but, but, if Kine Recources Contested and Conservative Agitation didn't > exist, pure vote strategy couldn't be made to work! Voting is not a main > strategy! It relies on only 2 cards! Raaaaaaa! > > Yeah, yeah. I'm an ass. > > :-) > No problem. Except that I prefere to kill people with Screw the masquerade, the greatest vote ever! Or consang. Condemnation. Or Domain challenge or anarchist uprising(killers of weeinie decks!) How about good old P. Shift for steal life! etc etc. There are many more kill you with vote cards. Hell you can even vote for intercept now(see national guard support) On the other hand, War Ghoul's hold little value. Even though they have built in rush, they are nothing.(since combat is nothing) What are you going to sac to them? each other!? Or is this the famous Tzm/Giov deck you've been cooking up? :-) Aaron

"Henrik" <henri...@spray.se> wrote in message news:<9ldjvq$8obnp$1@ID- > Besides I don't believe a few allies with weapons would kill the game. If > they'd be that über-powerful, people would already be kicking ass with those > same allies getting their weapons the normal way. Right, wouldn't want to make all those allys or weapons anymore playable! Then people might have to include anti-ally or anti-weapon cards and that would be terrible. Whats the deal people, if a war ghoul equiped(he can do that) a meat hook you're going to block him? But it's just too unfair to have disiplineless cards that he can use to equip unblockably? Hello? Why is it okay for assamites/malkavians/nosferatu to do it, but not everyone else? Maybe the card should be reworked for playability to be slightly more restrictive, and get it back to it's origional intent.(see above argument about why OBF has an extra card, why the card only has basic power, and why the card is a less cool duplicate of the disguised weapon) Does anyone know why they didn't just fix it before?(too lazy?) It would make many cards that are generally restricted, more widly avaliable and usable? It's not like it's illogical either. There is nothing to prevent Smudge the Ignored from keeping a saturday night special in his pocket, and pulling it out to suprise you? Aaron

>>>> Interesting, yes. But it'll make weapons too powerfull. Remember the >>>> 'minion' in the card text: an ally could use it too. Nephandus with an >>>> RPG launcher is quite scary. Or allies with White Phosphorus >>>> Grenades, enhanced with Mass Reality. >>> >>> If I were to counterprove my own thesis, I would actually pick some >>> more scary combo than "a Nephandus with an RPG >>> launcher" - say a Muddled Vampirehunter with a Ivory Bow. But I really >>> don't see any other combo that would be /too/ scary. As I said before, >>> weapons (and also allies) would become better cards => more players >>> would play with them => more players include anti-weaponcards. >> >> So now you either include X, or anti-X, or die horribly. > > I like to include some bleedcapacity in my decks, as well as some > bleeddefense, sometimes booth. > I like to include some votepower in my decks, as well as some votedefense, > sometimes booth. > I like to include some combatforce in my decks, as well as some > combatdefense, sometimes booth. > See the analogy? So now I would ALSO NEED to include anti-ally and anti-weapon cards. To one degree, the game isn't ABOUT the allies, it's about the Vampires. Allies should be good and balanced and cost effective (see, say, all the Giovanni allies for ones done right). Vampires should ALWAYS be better, pound for pound. > Besides I don't believe a few allies with weapons would kill the game. If > they'd be that über-powerful, people would already be kicking ass with those > same allies getting their weapons the normal way. Well, to counterpoint the second line of this message, forget about "minion," and consider the 1-caps. Weenie hordes do NOT need any more help, and the game has been *trying* (Rabble Razing, Free States Rant, Zillah's Valley) to move away from them being so strong. That's what makes Disguised weapon so cool; if you put together a crypt with OBF, you can speed up your deck by not equipping with weapons. That power really needs to be reserved for decks that NEED the help, i.e., decks with an average crypt capacity MORE than 2. Having a horde of 1-caps Computer Hacking, and *whoever* you block has a .44, or a White Phosphorus Grenade, or a Deer Rifle...at least if they have to equip, they spend one of their many actions NOT running you over, they're taking an action you can block (and outside of Creepshow Casino, they've got no stealth), and you can pick and choose what kind of weapon you'll be facing before you decide to block. Concealed Weapon appears as likely to be a last minute (poorly executed) design decision as a misprint. It would have been better not to bother printing it, of course, but maybe the sheets had already been decided, and it was too late to come up with a new card, but playtesting said "mess on this!" (All a conjecture, of course.) -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Xns90FEF5A0...@198.99.146.10>... [ quoted text not captured ] Don't play War Ghouls. They hold no meaning, probably why I don't have any of them.(traded all mine away) If you want to give me a war ghoul Ill take it, but I'll just get rid of it. It's not like I want it. Give me a nice Thadius Zho or Rafastio Ghoul anyday!(they are common, and far better to me) Actually, if you really want to get rid of something I've never seen anyone use but me, send all your 'transfer of power' this way! :) Aaron

roans...@yahoo.com (Aaron) wrote in news:7ab27d37.01081...@posting.google.com: > Don't play War Ghouls. They hold no meaning, probably why I don't > have any of them.(traded all mine away) If you want to give me a war > ghoul Ill take it, but I'll just get rid of it. It's not like I want See..., they have significant value to you as trade-bait... largely because a lot of other people want one. ;) You don't -directly- want a War Ghoul, but you know what you can GET for one. :) > it. Give me a nice Thadius Zho or Rafastio Ghoul anyday!(they are > common, and far better to me) > > Actually, if you really want to get rid of something I've never seen > anyone use but me, send all your 'transfer of power' this way! :) What, all one of it? :P

Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message news:<B79CDFCE.6674%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>... > > Chainsaw, Eyes of the Dead, Concealed Weapon. Twisting the Knife - now > > *there's* wallpaper... > > As someone else pointed out, Concealed Weapon is one of the few "total > wallpaper" cards. Chainsaw, I believe, is the other. TtK isn't worth the I don't think Chainsaw is wallpaper. It's prohibitively expensive, but not wallpaper. Why not? Beats the hell out of me. It just doesn't seem like wallpaper. As an aside, I'll add an asterisk (*) to this thread, and say that we're talking about Constructed decks.

>>> Chainsaw isn't a melee weapon, which makes it slightly functionally >>> different from Gas Powered chainsaw. >> >> yes, worse. there are, as far as i know, only cards that help cards that >> are specifically melee weapons. Thus, in every case possible there would >> be no reason to choose chainsaw over gas powered, UNLESS you were worried >> about someone stealing the gas-powered and using it with some >> hand-or-melee weapon strike card. > > Hey you are forgetting the dreaded werewolf pack which is not > affected by strikes from melee weapons. You could kill the whole pack > with just one blow (they have 3 life!) ;) - wouldn't that be nice. The > poor fellas wouldn't know even what hit them if it was muddles wearing > that thing. Of course there is King of the mountain with which you can > destroy a melee weapon, but not chainsaws. But, once again, your Shotgun can't be King of the Mountained, and it still blows away the Dreaded Werewolf Pack...even if they Fake Out. =) >>> Sure. It's still wallpaper. >> hmmmm...maybe there are differing views of the definition of "wallpaper" >> floating around here. >> I think, strictly speaking, it means a card that there is some other card >> that does the same job, only better. >> However, i tend to perhaps flippantly use the term "wallpaper" as a >> synonym for "crap" > > Same here I use the term quite broadly. I use the term when the card > really could be used as wallpaper material (or more like insulation > material in walls, it should be pretty if used as wallpaper). That > usually means crap. Well, don't we all? But, that's why I asked about (and defined) "true wallpaper" at the start of the thread. That's lost to the mists of USENET, but that's okay, of course. Any thread that stays totally on topic wasn't interesting. =) >> also, just as a question for the group as a whole: has anyone noticed >> less diablerie occuring now that you're not allowed to intentionally >> contest with yourself? No, not at all. I mean, if you don't eat the guy, then can spend 2 blood to get him back instead of X pool. I don't really see "not diablerizing" as a general "strategy" to keep a guy from getting a vampire. Among other things, it assumes they have an uncontrolled copy of the guy they want to bring out. (that was the point of the question, right? To keep them from getting the guy directly into the ready region to skip past the blockable rescue action?) [ quoted text not captured ]

Aaron wrote: >>No problem. Except that I prefere to kill people with Screw the masquerade, the greatest vote ever! >> Doesn't StM, just, like, suck? As far as I recall (not looking at cards right now), doesn't StM make everyone lose a pool and then one guy of your choice gets to lose an extra one? That sounds like a card that will get the whole table to kill you, more than anything else... >>Or consang. Condemnation.>> Well, if you have bleed back up or Domain Challenge (the "lose X pool where X is the number of tapped minions you have" vote, da?) or something. In and of itself, Condemnation is questionably useful. >>Or Domain challenge or anarchist uprising(killers of weeinie decks!)>> Domain Challenge and Anarch Uprising (is the the right title? I'm thinking of the "Lose X pool where X is the number of minions you control" vote) are moderately useful in the right deck or right circumstances, but most of the time you are better off with just another KRC. >>How about good old P. Shift for steal life!>> Parity Shift rocks, but you only can play a very limited number per game, such that including too many of them in your deckis a bad idea--yeah, if your prey has more pool than you, you can take his, but then you have more than him, and the Parity Shift only allows you to give it back :-) >>There are many more kill you with vote cards.>> But few of them are particularly reliable. KRC/ConAg are very reliable, incredibly utilitarian, and have zero opportunity cost (well, ok, if you are at 1 pool, and the only other guy at the table, you can't really play one, but other than that, they are always good). Unless you were making a kooky deck (or meta gaming against a particulrly prevelant deck type), the vast bulk of the damage causing votes in a pure vote deck will (or certainly should) be KRC/ConAg. [ quoted text not captured ]

pd...@aol.comANTISPAM (Peter D Bakija) wrote in message news:<20010815141138...@ng-co1.aol.com>... > Aaron wrote: > >>No problem. Except that I prefere to kill people with Screw the > masquerade, the greatest vote ever! >> > > Doesn't StM, just, like, suck? As far as I recall (not looking at cards right > now), doesn't StM make everyone lose a pool and then one guy of your choice > gets to lose an extra one? That sounds like a card that will get the whole > table to kill you, more than anything else... No, it's awesome. One of my favorite decks(and most successful) is a Nosferatu vote deck. It relies on screw the masquerade/transfer of power, and anarch revolt to kill everyone in sequence. I prefer using StM because it hurts everyone, but someone more. Always direct the extra damage at your prey. Assuming things are flowing, you will have 3 anarch revolts out, and have called 2 StM. Thats 10 pool loss to your prey, on the 3rd turn...but it's 8 to your grand prey and everyone else. Anyway, no one is your friend, but I'll email it to you and maybe you will want to include it in your Nosferatu news letter(its the only NOS deck I've ever had any luck with) Aaron.

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: [snip] >The analogy to a car salesman doesn't work in reverse. If he says he >thinks it's the most valuable thing out there, he MIGHT be lying, you know >he might be lying, and you don't ACTUALLY know any more than you did before >he opened his flap. If he says it sucks, though, you KNOW he's telling the >truth. =) This vacuum cleaner is the most valuable thing out here because it sucks. <eg> Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices.

"Aaron" <roans...@yahoo.com> wrote > > Don't play War Ghouls. They hold no meaning, probably why I don't > have any of them.(traded all mine away) If you want to give me a war > ghoul Ill take it, but I'll just get rid of it. It's not like I want > it. You all saw him say this right? > Give me a nice Thadius Zho or Rafastio Ghoul anyday!(they are > common, and far better to me) I have a Thadius Zho with your name on it Aaron (well, actually it has his name on it). I'll trade it to you for a War Ghoul :) Can I get a witness? Cheers, WES

> > also, just as a question for the group as a whole: has anyone noticed > less diablerie occuring now that you're not allowed to intentionally > contest with yourself? > What the? That's a weird new rule. Anyone know what the rationale is behind that one? And what happens if you have full blood on a vamp that you already have out? Does it just sit there uncontrolled with, say, 15 blood on it? That would be pretty useful for pool gain with GtU and the like if you can't take off all the excess blood in one turn (and I've had that happen where I had to pay another pool for a new vamp and wait a turn so that I didn't contest myself).

ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Chris Berger) wrote in message news:<5287ede4.01081...@posting.google.com>... > > > > also, just as a question for the group as a whole: has anyone noticed > > less diablerie occuring now that you're not allowed to intentionally > > contest with yourself? > > > What the? That's a weird new rule. Anyone know what the rationale is > behind that one? Section 4.1 of the new rulesbook (Final Nights) "...Be careful about putting duplicates of the same unique cards in your deck. You can't control more than one of the same unique card at a time, and you cannot contest cards with yourself. On the other hand, you may wish to have a second copy handy in case the first is burned." I think there is a caveat that if you are forced, by card effects, to contest your own stuff, the new copy is burned. I could be wrong (it happens so rarely - i.e. never - as to not be an issue). And what happens if you have full blood on a vamp > that you already have out? Does it just sit there uncontrolled with, > say, 15 blood on it? In your example it's not going to happen, since the highest cap vampire in your uncontrolled is 11. :) However, using an example of a 6 cap vampire with 5 blood on it in your uncontrolled region, an uncontrolled vampire is not contesting since it is not active - only if you tried to influence it into your ready region would you be trying to contest (which is illegal). So for effects such as GtU (sup) where you move blood on to an uncontrolled vampire, you can still use transfers to pull it off into your pool - even when the uncontrolled vampire you are moving the blood to is a copy of one already controlled. As for reasoning, there were a few people using the self contest rule to get a vampire up to full blood (which was annoying, silly, and not thematically correct). Other than that, it was just lame. DH

On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Pat Ricochet wrote: > >>> Chainsaw isn't a melee weapon, which makes it slightly functionally > >>> different from Gas Powered chainsaw. > >> > >> yes, worse. there are, as far as i know, only cards that help cards that > >> are specifically melee weapons. Thus, in every case possible there would > >> be no reason to choose chainsaw over gas powered, UNLESS you were worried > >> about someone stealing the gas-powered and using it with some > >> hand-or-melee weapon strike card. > > > > Hey you are forgetting the dreaded werewolf pack which is not > > affected by strikes from melee weapons. You could kill the whole pack > > with just one blow (they have 3 life!) ;) - wouldn't that be nice. The > > poor fellas wouldn't know even what hit them if it was muddles wearing > > that thing. Of course there is King of the mountain with which you can > > destroy a melee weapon, but not chainsaws. oh, so there are cards that specifiically screw melee weapons. whoops. O:) > > But, once again, your Shotgun can't be King of the Mountained, and it > still blows away the Dreaded Werewolf Pack...even if they Fake Out. =) so chainsaw is still wallpaper. yay! > >> also, just as a question for the group as a whole: has anyone noticed > >> less diablerie occuring now that you're not allowed to intentionally > >> contest with yourself? > > No, not at all. I mean, if you don't eat the guy, then can spend 2 > blood to get him back instead of X pool. I don't really see "not > diablerizing" as a general "strategy" to keep a guy from getting a vampire. i guess i'm just used to it being quite a painful and arduous process getting otrpored vamps out. they usually have havens/contracts/etc, plus other naughty cards. and then the rescues get blocked, and actions are wasted, etc... mind you, i really haven't noticed a drop-off in diablerie in my playgroup. actually, quite the contrary, i was just wondering if anyone else had noticed a drop-off, based on my thoughts of the no-self-contest rule. > Among other things, it assumes they have an uncontrolled copy of the guy > they want to bring out. (that was the point of the question, right? To > keep them from getting the guy directly into the ready region to skip past > the blockable rescue action?) that indeed was the point of the question. and usually because it's the guy's key vamp that you've slapped up, he usually will have a 2nd copy. but, i guess it's still just not worth leaving them there....oh well. O:) salem.

Aaron wrote: > [Screw the Masq.] is awesome. One of my favorite decks(and most successful) is a > Nosferatu vote deck. It relies on screw the masquerade/transfer of > power, and anarch revolt to kill everyone in sequence. I prefer using > StM because it hurts everyone, but someone more. Always direct the > extra damage at your prey. Assuming things are flowing, you will have You could achieve the same effect except without taking the pool loss yourself with Conservative Agitation (at least, until there're only two players left in the game), no? Give your prey two, then every other player (except yourself) one. Plus you get the advantage of flexibility when, say, your grandprey has only one pool remaining. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Chris Berger wrote: > > > > > also, just as a question for the group as a whole: has anyone noticed > > less diablerie occuring now that you're not allowed to intentionally > > contest with yourself? > > > What the? That's a weird new rule. Anyone know what the rationale is > behind that one? Intuitiveness and simplicity. > And what happens if you have full blood on a vamp > that you already have out? It comes out and is burned (without contesting) - unles it's Jimmy Dunn or some other non-contesting vampire. [ quoted text not captured ]

Aaron wrote: << Anyway, no one is your friend, but I'll email it to you and maybe you will want to include it in your Nosferatu news letter(its the only NOS deck I've ever had any luck with) >> Ooh, cool! Please do, with comentary, and I'll use it for next month! [ quoted text not captured ]

> >>Or consang. Condemnation.>> > > Well, if you have bleed back up or Domain Challenge (the "lose X pool where X > is the number of tapped minions you have" vote, da?) or something. In and of > itself, Condemnation is questionably useful. Back in the day when people were playing one clan decks this vote rocked. I used in in my ventrue political ally deck to good effect too. Although that was when we all still used two boxed of Jyhad starters to play with. > >>How about good old P. Shift for steal life!>> > > Parity Shift rocks, but you only can play a very limited number per game, such > that including too many of them in your deckis a bad idea--yeah, if your prey > has more pool than you, you can take his, but then you have more than him, and > the Parity Shift only allows you to give it back :-) Hmmmm... gotta disagree with you here, I have a deck with 17 of them, and it usually gets 10 or so off a game. The key is deciding who gets to pool, oh and getting low on pool yourself. Wonder how I could get the Ventrue to do that... oh well. <grin> > >>There are many more kill you with vote cards.>> > > But few of them are particularly reliable. KRC/ConAg are very reliable, > incredibly utilitarian, and have zero opportunity cost (well, ok, if you are at > 1 pool, and the only other guy at the table, you can't really play one, but > other than that, they are always good). Unless you were making a kooky deck (or > meta gaming against a particulrly prevelant deck type), the vast bulk of the > damage causing votes in a pure vote deck will (or certainly should) be > KRC/ConAg. Absolutly, they are the core of any oust your prey with damaging votes, deck. Cameron

"Wes" <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message news:<9lf17...@enews2.newsguy.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] It's all yours man. As soon as Derek sends it to me for my KRC's. ;) Aaron.

roans...@yahoo.com (Aaron) wrote in news:7ab27d37.01081...@posting.google.com: > It's all yours man. As soon as Derek sends it to me for my KRC's. ;) I have plenty of KRCs though. What else you got to offer? ;)

Henrik <henri...@spray.se> wrote: >Does anyone care do defend Code of Milan Suspended? >Cardtype: Political Action >Political Card-Worth 1 Vote. Called by any Sabbat vampire at +1 stealth. >Select the Methuselah with the Edge. If this referendum is successful, that >Methuselah burns 1 pool > >Let's see here... Requires sabbat vampire and gives the one that happens to >sit on the edge to burn ONE pool??? This is bad! CoMS is insanely bad, but not in every possible way inferior to, say, Kine Resources contested. You can damage just a single Meth, and if there's just you and one other guy left in the game, both of you on 1 pool, and the opposition has the edge...

In message <20010815141138...@ng-co1.aol.com>, Peter D Bakija <pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> writes >>>There are many more kill you with vote cards.>> > >But few of them are particularly reliable. KRC/ConAg are very reliable, >incredibly utilitarian, and have zero opportunity cost (well, ok, if you are at >1 pool, and the only other guy at the table, you can't really play one, but >other than that, they are always good). Comparing this to rush combat, the best archetype is something like pool damage vote, being similarly focussed (but on a different target) to rush combat. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3b7aee12....@news.shuswap.net>, Gene Wirchenko <ge...@shuswap.net> writes > This vacuum cleaner is the most valuable thing out here because >it sucks. <eg> Man, you must be really hard up for MOTAS out there... [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <B7A02128.676E%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>, Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> writes > So now I would ALSO NEED to include anti-ally and anti-weapon cards. Not necessarily. One of the factors in many games, like Jyhad and Magic, is that you can often defend more easily than you can advance - but the fact that they need to do something for you to defend against makes this balanced. Since allies are recruited or compelled via actions, generic action defence (intercept) provides a potentially solid defence against such. This is true even now, since allies *can* be made to work. A number of substantial decks have been made with lots of allies and Memories of Mortality. Defence against them is still possible via standard mechanisms. If, in Jyhad, the standard mechanisms are used to facilitate something, you can use standard defences. If something requires actions, you can block them. If something requires vampires, you can get rid of them. If something requires pool, you can bleed them. etc. etc. etc. None of them are fool-proof, of course, and specific anti-X will do better - which is great for commanding your metagame. However, generic anti-something will help you. That is, however, a function which works better in a toolboxed deck. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Johan Lundstrom" <jo...@algonet.se> wrote in message news:3b7ab4c1....@news.algonet.se... [ quoted text not captured ] What happens if the chosen methuselah pitches the edge for a vote in the referendum? I imagine he still burns the blood even if he can no longer burn the edge. Oscar Garza Prince of College Station The Crazy Aggie

skippy wrote: > > >Code of Milan Suspended? > > >Cardtype: Political Action > > >Political Card-Worth 1 Vote. Called by any Sabbat vampire at +1 stealth. > > >Select the Methuselah with the Edge. If this referendum is successful, that > > >Methuselah burns 1 pool > > What happens if the chosen methuselah pitches the edge for a vote in the > referendum? I imagine he still burns the blood even if he can no longer burn > the edge. Right. (Card text) Nothing about CoMS indicates that the chosen Methuselah must burn the edge when she burns a pool. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Aaron wrote: >> [Screw the Masq.] is awesome. One of my favorite decks(and most successful) >> is a >> Nosferatu vote deck. It relies on screw the masquerade/transfer of >> power, and anarch revolt to kill everyone in sequence. I prefer using >> StM because it hurts everyone, but someone more. Always direct the >> extra damage at your prey. Assuming things are flowing, you will have > > You could achieve the same effect except without taking the pool loss yourself > with Conservative Agitation (at least, until there're only two players left > in the game), no? Give your prey two, then every other player (except > yourself) > one. Plus you get the advantage of flexibility when, say, your grandprey has > only one pool remaining. Well, but it agitates the table against you, of course. It's much easier to "buy" votes for a vote where "it's not my fault!" they took the damage. Calling Screw the Masquerade might be advantageous to a cross-table ally, if they can take the pool loss better than THEIR prey. Calling a ConAg 2-1-1-1 is *choosing* that distribution, and makes you look really greedy and wanting all the VPs, compared to StM, that makes you look like a guy trying some new trick deck. (However, I still nod to the excellent numerical analysis; I had never noticed the parallel that makes ConAg nearly "wallpaper" StM =) [ quoted text not captured ]

Pat Ricochet wrote: > Calling a ConAg 2-1-1-1 is *choosing* that distribution, and makes you > look really greedy and wanting all the VPs, compared to StM, that makes you > look like a guy trying some new trick deck. Ah. In that case, there are no "wallpaper" cards. You could always play with them in order to give the impression that you don't know what you're doing. :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in news:3B7C1A68...@white-wolf.com: > Pat Ricochet wrote: >> Calling a ConAg 2-1-1-1 is *choosing* that distribution, and >> makes you >> look really greedy and wanting all the VPs, compared to StM, that >> makes you look like a guy trying some new trick deck. > > Ah. In that case, there are no "wallpaper" cards. You could always > play with them in order to give the impression that you don't know > what you're doing. :-) SHUSH! you'll give away all our secrets. seriously, i believe one should always be careful of appearances. Choosing 4th Tradition over Govern the Unaligned when possible, for example; a 4th Tradition action doesn't call attention to the Dominate on a vampire in the same way. :)

Howdy, This seems like an appropriate question for this thread... When would Day Operation be preferred to Daring the Dawn? Note: I don't really consider the Day Op to be wallpaper, as I have so few of both cards, and they are so similar in effect, but still, I always prefer to include Daring. Am I missing something? The facts as I see them: Day Operation: Action Modifier, Fortitude, 1 blood [for] Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. Vampires cannot block this action. The acting vampire goes into torpor after this action takes place. [FOR] As above, but usable when a vampire is attempting to block. Daring the Dawn: Action Modifier, Fortitude [for] Vampires cannot block this action. This vampire takes 2 aggravated damage (not preventable) after the action is complete. [FOR] As above, but this acting vampire takes 1 aggravated damage. ----- At inferior, Day Op will cost your minion one blood and put it in torpor (it cannot be played if your minion is empty); it can only be played when the action is announced. At inferior, Daring will put your minion in torpor and cost it one blood (or burn your minion if it had no blood on it to begin with); it can be played in reaction to a block attempt. At superior, Day Op will cost your minion one blood and put it in torpor (it cannot be played if your minion is empty). At superior, Daring will put your minion in torpor. ----- The only case I can think of in which Day Op is a better bet is if you are paying for it with Masochism at inferior - and it's still arguably not any better than Daring, given the fact that it has to be played as the action is announced. Alex

Alex Broadhead wrote: > > Howdy, > > This seems like an appropriate question for this thread... When would > Day Operation be preferred to Daring the Dawn? 1: When you've got Ankara Citadel. 2: When you've got normal Fortitude and attempt a Force of Will action. 3: When your initial Daring the Dawn is Direct Intervention'ed. 4: When you're taking a Regeneration action. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in news:3B7D3EC9.471847C4@white- wolf.com: > Alex Broadhead wrote: >> >> Howdy, >> >> This seems like an appropriate question for this thread... When would >> Day Operation be preferred to Daring the Dawn? > > 1: When you've got Ankara Citadel. > 2: When you've got normal Fortitude and attempt a Force of Will action. > 3: When your initial Daring the Dawn is Direct Intervention'ed. > 4: When you're taking a Regeneration action. 5: Allies cannot block a Day Opped action, but MAY block one with Daring the Dawn attached. If I intend to only toss 1 or 2 "unblockable" modifiers in, I generally will use Day Op "just in case". If I intend to use more, it's Daring the Dawn.

self-correction. When did Day Op get errata to change it to "vampires cannot block" instead of "action cannot be blocked"? =/

Derek Ray wrote: > > self-correction. When did Day Op get errata to change it to "vampires > cannot block" instead of "action cannot be blocked"? =/ It hasn't been changed. It still makes the action unblockable. Day Operation [Jyhad, V:TES] 1 blood Fortitude Action Modifier [for] Only usable when you are announcing your current action. This action cannot be blocked. The acting vampire goes into torpor after this action takes place. <b>[FOR] As above, but usable in response to an attempt to block. [ quoted text not captured ]

> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in news:3B7D3EC9.471847C4@white- > wolf.com: > >> Alex Broadhead wrote: >>> >>> Howdy, >>> >>> This seems like an appropriate question for this thread... When would >>> Day Operation be preferred to Daring the Dawn? >> >> 1: When you've got Ankara Citadel. >> 2: When you've got normal Fortitude and attempt a Force of Will action. >> 3: When your initial Daring the Dawn is Direct Intervention'ed. >> 4: When you're taking a Regeneration action. > > 5: Allies cannot block a Day Opped action, but MAY block one with Daring > the Dawn attached. 6: When you're using Masochism, you can pay for the Force of Will and the Day Op without spending any blood, just rush counters. [ quoted text not captured ]

Howdy, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3B7D4CF0...@white-wolf.com>... > Derek Ray wrote: > > > > self-correction. When did Day Op get errata to change it to "vampires > > cannot block" instead of "action cannot be blocked"? =/ > > It hasn't been changed. It still makes the action unblockable. > > Day Operation [Jyhad, V:TES] 1 blood Fortitude Action Modifier > [for] Only usable when you are announcing your current action. This action cannot be blocked. The acting vampire goes into torpor after this action takes place. > <b>[FOR] As above, but usable in response to an attempt to block. Firstly, thanks for the usage suggestions - now I know better. Secondly, thanks for the correction to both my and (apparently) Derek's readings of the card - it looks like ELDB has a non-standard wording. I'll have to let David know. The wording error is much more significant to me than any of the other usages anyone pointed out. That'll teach me to design decks without looking at the cards... Thanks again, Alex

On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, LSJ wrote: > Alex Broadhead wrote: > > > > Howdy, > > > > This seems like an appropriate question for this thread... When would > > Day Operation be preferred to Daring the Dawn? > > 1: When you've got Ankara Citadel. > 2: When you've got normal Fortitude and attempt a Force of Will action. > 3: When your initial Daring the Dawn is Direct Intervention'ed. > 4: When you're taking a Regeneration action. 5: When you want to not be blocked by allies as well. salem.