Unbeatable? combat deck.

jbab...@vt.edu (Jason Babbitt) wrote: > Well, I'm finally going to post my *maybe* unbeatable combat >deck. I haven't constructed it, or played with it yet, so it's purely >speculative. I would appreciate input. If you can think of a way to >beat it, please tell me. Here it is.... > I've got mostly Hidden Lurkers/Earth Melds. Some Protean and >Obfuscate cards. A fair number of Bum's Rushes. Maybe a couple of guns. >I don't need old vampires, young ones with obfuscate or protean are best. > I have to wait until I have two vampires. Then, I Bum's Rush my >opponent. I strike first, Earth Meld, untap. My other vampire plays >Hidden Lurker, my opponent has no strikes, I hit him (possibly with a >gun), I press with the Hidden Lurker (perhaps I'll include some press >cards as well). I Earth Meld, untap. My first vampire then plays Hidden >Lurker and repeats what the last one did. This continues until my >opponent is in torpor, leaving me with one vampire tapped and no damage >at all. Note also that since I allways get first strike, my opponent >cannot end combat. He can block the Lurker, but then I'll simply move my >combat to whoever blocked. So, basically, one of his vampires goes to >torpor, but he gets to choose which one. One possible escape is Elesium. >Another is Mariel. > Please tell me what you think. Peace Jason, Sounds very card intensive (more so than a regular combat deck). Wouldn't work against another combat deck, Brujah Pot/Cel, for example, as the Brujah could easily press to end combat or Immortal Grapple one of your vamps and pound it into mush. Nil carborundum illigitimi, James R. McClure Jr. The OS/2 Apostle <insert disclaimer here>

[ quoted text not captured ] The other problem with it is that you will need vampires with superior Protean and either superior Obfuscate, or normal Obfuscate with presses for it to even have a chance at working. If I'm not mistaken, all of the vampires who have both Protean and Obfuscate are big ones and I don't remember any of them having both superior, so you'll need to wait until you get your skill cards out before you can use it. --------- Paul Schaaf sch...@u.washington.edu

I think You have an interesting deck,but unbeatable no, this deck is geared to fight other vamps, other than mabe being a little annoying, I think a brujah or gangrel combat with presses and aggravated dmg would probably crush the little vamps. If you play it re-post and let us know how you did. Errol

jbab...@vt.edu (Jason Babbitt) writes: > I don't see how a combat deck could beat this deck. I will >almost allways have an Earth Meld in my hand. Well, combat decks beat up Combat Ends decks with Immortal Grapple (the #1 method), Fast Reactions, or Hidden Lurker. Weather Control and superior Drawing out the Beast can help too. You are right in that it is very rare for a combat deck to have enough of these, except sometime IG, >The beauty of this deck is >that when I bum's rush my opponent, he gets no strikes, the only possible >defense he has are presses, and I think I'll add press cards to the deck. Fortitude is a defense against this as you will burn cards doing damage about as fast as he burns them preventing the damage. One could also maneuver and Drawing out the Beast (but that's a weird one). >I also only need one vampire to block with since he can continually >untap. So I only *need* two young vampires. Ah yes, those unlimited untaps are paying us a visit in another incarnation -- I've seen another (apparently) abusive use of Earth Meld - an Obfuscate/Protean Deck with stealth, Claws, Earth Meld, and Laptops. Very few decks stand a reasonable chance against it - it Earth Melds from rushers, blocks with Earth Meld, and either sneaks past interceptors or claws them. At the same time there's too many bleeds for a reasonable bounce to work. About the only normal deck with a good chance is Brujah rush, and that only with Immortal Grapple, which is a rare and should thus not be an essential defensive card. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)

In article <43snek$3...@bert.compusmart.ab.ca>, etre...@compusmart.ab.ca says... [ quoted text not captured ] I don't see how a combat deck could beat this deck. I will almost allways have an Earth Meld in my hand. The beauty of this deck is that when I bum's rush my opponent, he gets no strikes, the only possible defense he has are presses, and I think I'll add press cards to the deck. I also only need one vampire to block with since he can continually untap. So I only *need* two young vampires. Jason Babbitt jbab...@vt.edu

Obfuscate and Protean are a great combo, and you would need those skill cards for the idea to work. As far as against other combat decks it would kick ass in my opinion! Vampire one rushes an opponents vampire. Plays the greater earth meld, and Vampire two follows up with hidden lurker, does some damage, presses (you can always keep gleam of the red eyes/ form of mist in your deck if anyone counter presses or steps to long range.) After the press Vampire two plays another meld and Vampire one picks up again... I have the intention of trying this deck out (when I get some more Earth Melds) and I would suggest using Nosferatu with plenty of protean skill cards, a few gangrel wouln't hurt (my favorite clan) and Zebulon has both obfuscate and protean. If you use the Nosferatu the option of potence comes into play. Vamps one and two beat down the victem with undead strength and when you get them to zero blood, hit em for another undead strength+claws of the dead and burn em. Of course this requires a lot of cards, and you must get each at the right moment. Then there is the problem of intercept, since Hidden Lurker is at 0 stealth (if I recall correctly) it could be easily intercepted. Though that my go your way depending on how you play your cards. Overall I think it was a very good Idea for a use of cards. I commend you Jason. It's to bad my major oponent also belongs to the news group, and will be expecting me to play with this deck.

>Fortitude is a defense against this as you will burn cards doing damage >about as fast as he burns them preventing the damage. Ah yes, of course you're correct. Fortitude is a good defense against this deck. I don't know why I never thought of this before, my other main combat deck is a fortitude deck. I don't see many fortitude decks anyway, so I don't think it'll be too much of a problem. Still, I think this deck will beat most other combat decks. I actually, at first, developed it primarily to combat my opponent's Tremere deck. He'd attack you, blur, steal *all* if your blood, then burn you. Then he'd minion tap the blood back to his pool. *Very* annoying. He would have an absolutely *enormous* pool after a few turns. Anyways, I'll tell you how the deck works out on Thursday. Thanks for all the help and input.... keep it coming!!! Jason Babbitt jbab...@vt.edu

In article <442sbb$g...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dlsh...@aol.com says... >There is no such thing as an unbeatable deck in a multi-player >environment, except in Illuminati. You can always be teamed up on, and >slaughtered out of hand by all of the other players, if they choose to >band against you! So quit making these posts. Well, excuse me. I never made the claim that this deck was unbeatable. The express purpose of these posts was to find a *combat* deck that could beat this one. I couldn't really think of too many ways myself, so I asked you people. I realize that a good bleed deck could *easily* beat this one. If you don't want people coming here to get your advice then why is this newsgroup here? If you don't want people coming here to share their decks with you, then why is this newsgroup here? I happen to believe that this is a very good deck, if you don't think so, then please, go away. Jason Babbitt jbab...@vt.edu

I happened to like Jason's deck and am glad he posted it on the newsgroup. It may not be unbeatable (and he didn't say it was, there is a ? after unbeatable which places it in the form of a question), but those of us who play are always trying to come up with a better deck. It is human nature to strive to be better. If Jason or anyone else has ideas for good decks I encourage you to post them, or E-mail them to me. And if your open minded and have concerns other than the ruthless ones of the Camarilla you might check out my *Unbeatable Deck* under the *Search for Golconda*

In article <442pn0$2...@solaris.cc.vt.edu> jho...@vt.edu (Jennifer Hormel) writes: > I actually, at first, developed it primarily to combat my >opponent's Tremere deck. He'd attack you, blur, steal *all* if your >blood, then burn you. Then he'd minion tap the blood back to his pool. >*Very* annoying. He would have an absolutely *enormous* pool after a few >turns. Anyways, I'll tell you how the deck works out on Thursday. I see. You developed the Earth Meld spoiler deck to combat his Theft of Vitae (minor spoiler, especially under current `maximal effect' ruling) /Minion Tap (spoiler IMO) spoiler deck. Fine, you'll be forgiven for using a spoiler deck ... :-) BTW, if you look at a certain Commons price list, you'll see which ones some spoilers are. Some become spoilers because of IMO misrules: (1) Bum's Rush is not spoiler, it just has an essential function irreplacable by any other card. OTOH, Bewitching Oration doesn't get its price beefed because it is replacable with any Political card under the vote-pushing (IMO mis-)rule. (2) Cloak the Gathering is spoiler. Enhanced Senses is not spoiler, but it becomes an essential card because of the Cloaks. -- "Live Life with Heart." Alan Kwan kw...@cs.cornell.edu

There is no such thing as an unbeatable deck in a multi-player environment, except in Illuminati. You can always be teamed up on, and slaughtered out of hand by all of the other players, if they choose to band against you! So quit making these posts. All Hail Discordia

jbab...@vt.edu (Jason Babbitt) writes: > Well, excuse me. I never made the claim that this deck was >unbeatable. The express purpose of these posts was to find a *combat* >deck that could beat this one. Well, when you headline the post "unbeatable deck", you kind of have to expect people to make that interpretation. >I happen to believe that this is a very good deck, if you don't think so, >then please, go away. It IS a good deck. The problem is that it's TOO good. You may not realize it, but you stepped smack into the middle of a touchy issue. Many people (including yours truly) consider Earth Meld one of the broken cards and so trying to beat an Earth Meld deck is mostly an academic exercise. Those people who believe Earth Meld is OK also may object to your posted deck; it very cleverly uses the endless untaps to allow more or less endless combat activities; it will be very hard for them to maintain their position now that your deck can be cited as an example of what can be done with Earth Meld. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)

I recently made a intercept/put them in torpor/combat deck designed to be used against high stealth decks or magesty decks (it would have never been made if I hadn't read Jason's hidden lurker/earth meld deck, which showed me the effectiveness of the Lurker. I chose to use Fast Reaction in the deck instead of Hidden Lurker because it is used as after blocking (which is what my minions are going to be spending most of their time doing.) Fast Reaction is also a reaction card instead of an action card so it cannot be blocked. You also don't waste any strike cards in combat when your opponent plays dodges or combat ends. I do have a question on the use of both the HL and FR. I know that while playing action modifiers/reactions and participating in combat the order of card play goes acting minion and then blocking minion. But what about the playing of Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction? At first I thought the acting minion would go first, but Hidden Lurker is a new action by a new minion. Fast Reaction is in reaction to the original combat ending so I think that it would be played before any new actions could have the chance to be played (but Hidden Lurker is an action in response to the combat ending). Or is it who every throws their card down first (which could result in an argument). Though this has never happened to me personally, it's something I wonder about.

Biomech8 (biom...@aol.com) wrote: : I know that while playing action modifiers/reactions and participating in : combat the order of card play goes acting minion and then blocking minion. : But what about the playing of Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction? At first : I thought the acting minion would go first, but Hidden Lurker is a new : action by a new minion. Fast Reaction is in reaction to the original : combat ending so I think that it would be played before any new actions : could have the chance to be played (but Hidden Lurker is an action in : response to the combat ending). Or is it who every throws their card down : first (which could result in an argument). Though this has never happened : to me personally, it's something I wonder about. This HAS happened to me, and I'd like to hear a ruling about it. Thanks. - Neil -- nwbe...@unix.amherst.edu, lentus in umbra | nudus ara, sere nudus... in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro

nwbe...@news.amherst.edu (Neil Bernstein) writes: >Biomech8 (biom...@aol.com) wrote: >: I know that while playing action modifiers/reactions and participating in >: combat the order of card play goes acting minion and then blocking minion. >: But what about the playing of Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction? At first >: I thought the acting minion would go first, but Hidden Lurker is a new >: action by a new minion. Fast Reaction is in reaction to the original >: combat ending so I think that it would be played before any new actions >: could have the chance to be played (but Hidden Lurker is an action in >: response to the combat ending). Or is it who every throws their card down >: first (which could result in an argument). Though this has never happened >: to me personally, it's something I wonder about. >This HAS happened to me, and I'd like to hear a ruling about it. Thanks. If Hidden Lurker is played as printed (and as officially ruled) - as an Action, then Fast Reaction take precedence - since it is payed at the tail end of the action prior to the action started by Hidden Lurker. If Hidden Lurker is played as intended (and as once officially errata'ed) - as an Action Modifier, then Hidden Lurker has precedence since it would be played by the acting Minion's Methuselah, and the order for "slap" situations is: Acting Minion/Methuselah, Blocking Minion/Methuselah ((D) actions), Prey then Predator (blocking undirected actions only), then clockwise around the table starting with the Prey of the acting Minion/Methuselah. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | These opinions are mine and http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | are subject to card text. Graphics Specialist and Jyhad Rulemonger. |

In article <4480c2$5...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, curt...@aol.com says... >Well, when you headline the post "unbeatable deck", you kind of have to >expect people to make that interpretation. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression, that is not what was meant by the headline "Unbeatable? Combat deck". I was asking for help on *how* people would beat the deck..... once again, I apologize. >You may not realize it, but you stepped smack into the middle of a >touchy issue. I knew that the deck would set some people off, but I couldn't resist posting it, besides, it gives me the opportunity to give my opinion on the issue. Personally, I hate untap decks, when they are abused. However, in the environment I play in, you have to be competetive. *Everyone* here has a spoiler deck, so I needed one of my own. >Those people who believe Earth Meld is OK also may object to your posted >deck; it very cleverly uses the endless untaps to allow more or less >endless combat activities; Why thank you. >it will be very hard for them to maintain their position now that your >deck can be cited as an example of what can be done with Earth Meld. I'm glad to be of service to the anti-broken-card cause.... There are still a lot of people out there who are going to play with broken cards, in my opinion, the best (and most convincing) way to defeat a spoiler deck is with a better spoiler deck.... I am open to argument on this matter. Jason Babbitt jbab...@vt.edu

In article <4498a2$e...@solaris.cc.vt.edu> jbab...@vt.edu (Jason Babbitt) writes: > I'm glad to be of service to the anti-broken-card cause.... >There are still a lot of people out there who are going to play with >broken cards, in my opinion, the best (and most convincing) way to defeat >a spoiler deck is with a better spoiler deck.... I am open to argument >on this matter. Well, using spoiler decks against spoiler decks doesn't IMO solve the problem: yes the first spoiler deck doesn't win all the time, but the game is now reduced to Mt$. OTOH, it is A Good Thing to post and expose abusive uses of spoiler decks. Spoilers are a problem in the design of the game IMO, not a problem of the player who uses them. Hiding the problem doesn't make it go away. Posting spoiler decks exposes the problem and (hopefully) leads to the spoiler cards being re-costed/modified/ banned (Fame should probably be banned). [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] In the case of a freaky bleed deck, if the cards go right and you are in position to clear the table in one round, that is about unbeatable. Or a gangrel deck when you get say five raven spies out and have a huge number of earth meld and a few other untaps, well that is just about unbeatable. Many people have stated that malk stealth and bleed deck is almost unbeatable in the case of four card limits. Maybe if you had read the post you would have seen he proposed an idea, which in theory, would have torpored one vampire per round. If he could achieve this in practice, it would be very close to unbeatable(IMO). The problems with have been discussed in other post but there was nothing wrong the basic premise. I for one am glad to see post that have deck ideas, esp ones they try to explore possible bugs in the game mechanics. If you don't like post about possible unbeatable decks I would sugest setting up a kill file and not trying to impose your views of what is and isn't a usefull post on other. Just my $.02 Steven Bauer

curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) writes: > Many people (including yours truly) consider Earth Meld one of the > broken cards and so trying to beat an Earth Meld deck is mostly an > academic exercise. Those people who believe Earth Meld is OK also may > object to your posted deck; it very cleverly uses the endless untaps to > allow more or less endless combat activities; it will be very hard for > them to maintain their position now that your deck can be cited as an > example of what can be done with Earth Meld. A hearty round of applause for this post! I suggest that all the "combat ends" cards (Earth Meld, Form of Mist and Majesty) be amended so that they cost one blood to play. Majesty would then allow vampires with superior Presence to untap at no extra cost. Consider this: Skin of Steel costs one blood and prevents all damage from all strikes this round, if you have superior Fortitude. Earth Meld prevents all damage from all strikes this round *and* in every possible subsequent round of combat. Admittedly, it does use up your strike, but the ability to untap more than compensates. I'd say it should cost at least as much to play as Skin of Steel. Come on, WotC, admit you made a mistake, and *fix it*. - Keith

jbab...@vt.edu (Jason Babbitt) wrote: ' Well, I'm finally going to post my *maybe* unbeatable combat deck. 'I haven't constructed it, or played with it yet, so it's purely speculative. 'I would appreciate input. If you can think of a way to beat it, please 'tell me. Here it is.... ' I've got mostly Hidden Lurkers/Earth Melds. Some Protean and 'Obfuscate cards. A fair number of Bum's Rushes. Maybe a couple of guns. 'I don't need old vampires, young ones with obfuscate or protean are best. ' I have to wait until I have two vampires. Then, I Bum's Rush my 'opponent. I strike first, Earth Meld, untap. My other vampire plays 'Hidden Lurker, my opponent has no strikes, I hit him (possibly with a 'gun), I press with the Hidden Lurker (perhaps I'll include some press 'cards as well). I Earth Meld, untap. My first vampire then plays Hidden 'Lurker and repeats what the last one did. This continues until my opponent 'is in torpor, leaving me with one vampire tapped and no damage at all. 'Note also that since I allways get first strike, my opponent cannot end 'combat. He can block the Lurker, but then I'll simply move my combat to 'whoever blocked. So, basically, one of his vampires goes to torpor, but 'he gets to choose which one. One possible escape is Elesium. Another is 'Mariel. ' Please tell me what you think. Presuming that you are playing Hidden Lurker as a 0 stealth action (which it seems that you are), then a block followed by Fast Reaction will interfere with your plan. If you play with Hidden Lurker as an action modifier (which many do), then you wouldn't be able to have the same minion do Hidden Lurker twice. And isn't there some restriction on Hidden Lurker so that it can only be played by a minion other than the acting minion? Maybe I'm mis-remembering this last bit. --- Eric Pettersen pe...@cgl.ucsf.edu (NeXTmail capable)

In article <1995Sep29.113821@cantva> eco...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz writes: >curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) writes: > >> Many people (including yours truly) consider Earth Meld one of the >> broken cards [...] >A hearty round of applause for this post! > >I suggest that all the "combat ends" cards (Earth Meld, Form of Mist >and Majesty) be amended so that they cost one blood to play. Majesty >would then allow vampires with superior Presence to untap at no extra >cost. Two blood (to play S:CE)! And 1 more to Untap with superior Majesty! We don't have to amend the cards, just add in the rules that S:CE must be played with burning 2 blood. Compare this: 1. not using S:CE : needs a dodge + Blur + 2 more dodges + presses to end combat. Costs 1 blood and /n/ cards. 2. S:CE : end of the story. Cost? 1 card. What do you think? > >Consider this: Skin of Steel costs one blood and prevents all damage >from all strikes this round, if you have superior Fortitude. Earth >Meld prevents all damage from all strikes this round *and* in every >possible subsequent round of combat. Admittedly, it does use up your >strike, but the ability to untap more than compensates. I'd say it >should cost at least as much to play as Skin of Steel. Skin of Steel cannot prevent Steal Blood or Blood Rage/Fury, and you require superior to prevent damage from additional strikes. Majesty doesn't need superior to prevent everything. It IMO should definitely cost more to play than Skin of Steel! >Come on, WotC, admit you made a mistake, and *fix it*. Don't count on that. Try to convince your friends to some house rules. [ quoted text not captured ]

This may sound pretty silly but.......For pulled Fangs , is damage taken for the round calculated in the same way as for Taste Of Vitae eg Blood at Start of round - Blood at end of round = Damage . Getting extra blood from someone playing a blur sucks i know . But the real point is when does PF damage apply ( i dont have the card) . If someone tries a S:CE and pays a blood to untap , can that blood be counted as 1 , compared to the 0 damage the fang puller will have taken ........ Im guessing not as once the SCE goes down thats it , but i suppose its worth asking , well almost .... JAC

Mr JA Chapman wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Pulled Fangs has been ruled to be usable only during the press subphase. Damage refers to the total amount of actual damage inflicted on the opposing vampire. I think damage inflicted by your own strikes (such as bombs) and stolen blood do not count as damage inflicted by the other minion. If someone knows this to be wrong, please say so... ********************************************************************* Santiago * Glory is worthless, e-mail: * Trust is invaluable. ia...@mail.utexas.edu *

Vampire A (who has greater fortitude) enters combat with vampire B. The round is at close range. Vampire A uses hand damage (1pt), and Vampire B (who has an innate hand damage of 2) uses hand damage (2pts.) Vampire A prevents both damage inflicted by Vampire B. Vampire B loses one blood. No additional strikes are made. During the press phase both players want to play Pulled Fangs. Vampire A did not take any actual damage (it was prevented), and Vampire B took one, so I would assume that Vampire A could play Pulled Fangs, while B could not. If Vampire B had two Wolf Companions (so another 2pts. of damage would be inflicted on A) does the 2 points count toward the playability of Pulled Fangs? (since Vampire B didn't inflict the damage, the Wolves did)

biom...@aol.com (Biomech8) writes: >Vampire A (who has greater fortitude) enters combat with vampire B. >The round is at close range. >Vampire A uses hand damage (1pt), and Vampire B (who has an innate hand >damage of 2) uses hand damage >(2pts.) >Vampire A prevents both damage inflicted by Vampire B. Vampire B loses >one blood. >No additional strikes are made. >During the press phase both players want to play Pulled Fangs. >Vampire A did not take any actual damage (it was prevented), and Vampire B >took one, so I would assume that Vampire A could play Pulled Fangs, while >B could not. Correct. From: aa...@hal.COM (Tom Wylie) Newsgroups: rec.games.deckmaster Subject: NEW: Rulings summary for Jyhad Date: 9 Nov 1994 13:11:24 -0800 Message-ID: <39rdts$s...@perv.hal.COM> Pulled Fangs: Used during the press step, and counts up damage successfully inflicted during the round. >If Vampire B had two Wolf Companions (so another 2pts. of damage would be >inflicted on A) does the 2 points count toward the playability of Pulled >Fangs? (since Vampire B didn't inflict the damage, the Wolves did) No. From: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad Subject: Re: Pulled Fangs Date: 4 Mar 1995 20:20:33 GMT Message-ID: <3jai2h$m...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> Pulled Fangs just cares about the range the round is at, not the nature of the damage inflicted upon the vampire whose fangs are to be pulled. So a shotgun will do just as well as a chainsaw. Note that damage from retainers such as Wolf Companion won't count when comparing damage inflicted. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | These opinions are mine and http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | are subject to card text. Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |