Rules Questions for LSJ

Time for some fun! #1. When Sonja Blue blocks as an ally, her card text does not specify what type of ally she is. So since she is not blocking as a mortal or animal ally, then she's still technically a "monster" ally (for the purpose of Imbued cards). Right? #2. Bond states: "Move an incapacitated imbued to his or her controller's ready region. That imbued gains a life (not to exceed his or her starting amount)." Rules state: "Note that an imbued gains a life (not to exceed his starting life) if he leaves the incapacitated region by any other effect, as well." Is the card text in Bond just reminder text, or does an Imbued get an additional life from the Bond (in addition to what she normally gets for leaving the incapacitated region)? (i.e. Imbued has no life and Bond is played. Does she come back with 1 or 2 life?). #3. Zelios cannot pay the partial cost of a location, right? (I have 3 pool and Zelios has 2 blood. I can't play Club Zombie, paying 2 pool and 2 blood from Zelios). Card text does not seem to allow it, but just doublechecking. #4. The Erciyes Fragment can foil your prey's attempt to continue an action (e.g. Form of Mist), right? So my prey plays an action card and it is blocked (so the card goes to the ash heap). During combat, I can tap the Erciyes Fragment to remove the action card from his ash heap, preventing him from continuing the action. This issue was alluded to in one of the threads involving Massassi's Honor but I want to make sure. #5. A --> B --> C Methuselah A controls Charriger the Axe. Methuseleh B has Kherebutu. During Methuselah C's turn, Kherebutu burns. Is he shuffled into his library (with no soul counter added) or is he removed from the game (adding a soul counter)? Since C is the acting player, I'm guessing he would get to decide whether A's Charriger effect or B's Kherebutu effect works first? #6. White Nights Massacre states: "During your next discard phase, you must burn this card, and you may either burn a vampire in torpor or, by tapping a ready werewolf ally you control or discarding a White Nights Massacre from your hand, burn all vampires in torpor." Does the "you may either" mean you can choose A or B or neither? Or does it mean you are forced to choose either A or B (you can't choose neither)? #7. In the last printing of Terror Frenzy (Legacies of Blood), card text was ""Opposing vampire burns an additional blood when playing combat cards this combat." Currently online text shows "<Combat cards cost the opposing vampire> an additional blood this combat." Does this affect the previous ruling stating that even with Dragos or Path cards, Terror Frenzy still requires burning blood? #8. In combat, Methuselah A (acting) has his minion strike with hands (or a gun). Methuselah B strikes with the Ivory Bow. Methuselah A then attempts to play Claws of the Dead or Dragon's Breath Rounds. Can Methuselah B respond with a Rotschreck (they still haven't reached strike resolution) or is it too late? #9. Some cards/effects give stealth only if the action is directed or undirected (Creepshow Casino, Mirror's Visage, etc.) Do these effects check the condition only once or are they constantly checking? The main reason I'm asking is that if the directedness of an action changes during the action, do these effects recheck the state? For example: A. I perform an undirected action, tapping Creepshow Casino for +1 stealth. During the action, it becomes a directed action (probably due to a change in control). Does the Creepshow stealth suddenly disappear (since it is now directed) or does it only check when first used? B. Similarly, I perform a directed action and play Mirror's Visage at superior for +1 stealth. If the action later becomes undirected, do I suddenly get an additional +1 stealth (due to Mirror's Visage which was previously played)? Thanks!

<echia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c194a95f-6200-4e1d...@k4g2000yqb.googlegroups.com... > #4. The Erciyes Fragment can foil your prey's attempt to continue an > action (e.g. Form of Mist), right? So my prey plays an action card and > it is blocked (so the card goes to the ash heap). During combat, I can > tap the Erciyes Fragment to remove the action card from his ash heap, > preventing him from continuing the action. This issue was alluded to > in one of the threads involving Massassi's Honor but I want to make > sure. Although I wouldn't know if there's any hinky angles that might make the answer come out different than I'd expect, I can at least point you to the ruling on this (the link is up near the top of the WW "rulings page", so it's easy to find): http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/2d8a664119fb45a3 One would think your take on it is perfect. Fred

I know that for question 5, the removed from game instead means the text which shuffles you back to the library doesn't happen since you are RFG instead of being burned. Not RFG instead of going to the ash heap. so would he cause Sac Lamb to fail?

On 17 marras, 06:41, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang...@yahoo.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] 1# I would believe that yes she is still considered a monster. 2# I would think they get an extra from bond. 3# Looks like your right about this. 4# No idea about this one. 5# Chariggers card text seems to indicate that they are removed from the game instead of being burned so I would say that they aren't shuffled back. 6# I think you need to choose either or, although not sure what happens if there are no vampires in torpor and you choose the burn a vampire in torpor. 7# Main difference in those two wordings is that 'cost additional blood' can't be played if you don't have the blood to spend, while 'burns additional blood' can. 8# Yes you can play rotschreck any time before strike resolution. 9# I can't think of any effect that would change an action from undirected to directed, but creepshow casino only checks when you use it (you can only use it on undirected), Mirror's Visage probably also checks it only when its played, but not sure of that.

On Nov 17, 6:41 am, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Time for some fun! > > #1. When Sonja Blue blocks as an ally, her card text does not specify > what type of ally she is. So since she is not blocking as a mortal or > animal ally, then she's still technically a "monster" ally (for the > purpose of Imbued cards). Right? She's a monster even as an ally, because she's not a mortal or an animal. > #2. Bond states: "Move an incapacitated imbued to his or her > controller's ready region. That imbued gains a life (not to exceed his > or her starting amount)." Rules state: "Note that an imbued gains a > life (not to exceed his starting life) if he leaves the incapacitated > region by any other effect, as well." Is the card text in Bond just > reminder text, or does an Imbued get an additional life from the Bond > (in addition to what she normally gets for leaving the incapacitated > region)? (i.e. Imbued has no life and Bond is played. Does she come > back with 1 or 2 life?). Gains an additional life (come back with 2 life more). > #3. Zelios cannot pay the partial cost of a location, right? (I have 3 > pool and Zelios has 2 blood. I can't play Club Zombie, paying 2 pool > and 2 blood from Zelios). Card text does not seem to allow it, but > just doublechecking. Correct. > #4. The Erciyes Fragment can foil your prey's attempt to continue an > action (e.g. Form of Mist), right? So my prey plays an action card and > it is blocked (so the card goes to the ash heap). During combat, I can > tap the Erciyes Fragment to remove the action card from his ash heap, > preventing him from continuing the action. This issue was alluded to > in one of the threads involving Massassi's Honor but I want to make > sure. > > #5. A --> B --> C > > Methuselah A controls Charriger the Axe. Methuseleh B has Kherebutu. > During Methuselah C's turn, Kherebutu burns. Is he shuffled into his > library (with no soul counter added) or is he removed from the game > (adding a soul counter)? Since C is the acting player, I'm guessing he > would get to decide whether A's Charriger effect or B's Kherebutu > effect works first? Both effects fire regardless (assuming Charigger's controller makes the choice). Kherebutu tries to shuffle himself into library as he is burned, but Charigger says he is removed instead. So Kherebutu goes out of the game. > #6. White Nights Massacre states: "During your next discard phase, you > must burn this card, and you may either burn a vampire in torpor or, > by tapping a ready werewolf ally you control or discarding a White > Nights Massacre from your hand, burn all vampires in torpor." Does the > "you may either" mean you can choose A or B or neither? Or does it > mean you are forced to choose either A or B (you can't choose > neither)? Keyword *may*. You don't have to harm any vampires in torpor if you don't want to. > #7. In the last printing of Terror Frenzy (Legacies of Blood), card > text was ""Opposing vampire burns an additional blood when playing > combat cards this combat." Currently online text shows "<Combat cards > cost the opposing vampire> an additional blood this combat." Does this > affect the previous ruling stating that even with Dragos or Path > cards, Terror Frenzy still requires burning blood? If the online text is accurate, then Dragos and Path would affect the increased cost. Don't have a Legacies of Blood version at hand, so can't double check that, but if it's really "burns an additional blood" then Dragos and Path won't affect the cost, but you can play free combat cards even if you have 0 blood. > #8. In combat, Methuselah A (acting) has his minion strike with hands > (or a gun). Methuselah B strikes with the Ivory Bow. Methuselah A then > attempts to play Claws of the Dead or Dragon's Breath Rounds. Can > Methuselah B respond with a Rotschreck (they still haven't reached > strike resolution) or is it too late? It's not too late to play Rötschreck. > #9. Some cards/effects give stealth only if the action is directed or > undirected (Creepshow Casino, Mirror's Visage, etc.) Do these effects > check the condition only once or are they constantly checking? The > main reason I'm asking is that if the directedness of an action > changes during the action, do these effects recheck the state? For > example: > A. I perform an undirected action, tapping Creepshow Casino for +1 > stealth. During the action, it becomes a directed action (probably due > to a change in control). Does the Creepshow stealth suddenly disappear > (since it is now directed) or does it only check when first used? > B. Similarly, I perform a directed action and play Mirror's Visage > at superior for +1 stealth. If the action later becomes undirected, do > I suddenly get an additional +1 stealth (due to Mirror's Visage which > was previously played)? Of Mirror's Visage I'm not certain but would say stays at +2 stealth. Creepshow Casino's stealth would stay. > Thanks! No problem.

On Nov 17, 11:37 am, Klaital <klaita...@gmail.com> wrote: > 5# Chariggers card text seems to indicate that they are removed from > the game instead of being burned so I would say that they aren't > shuffled back. Yeah I think you're right. It does look like Charriger's effect has precedence (since it takes place instead). However, this does mean that Charrigger largely negates your prey's pool loss for Tension in the Ranks (he still loses pool for torpored vampires, but his minions never get burned), right? On Nov 17, 12:29 pm, JH <jhatt...@tenerdo.org> wrote: > If the online text is accurate, then Dragos and Path would affect the > increased cost. Don't have a Legacies of Blood version at hand, so > can't double check that, but if it's really "burns an additional > blood" then Dragos and Path won't affect the cost, but you can play > free combat cards even if you have 0 blood. Well, even with the original Sabbat wording: ""Opposing minion pays an additional blood when playing combat cards during this combat." it was still ruled that Dragos would have to burn a blood. So even if the wording was changed (to something closer to the original), it still seems like the older ruling would still hold unless explicitly overturned. > #9. Some cards/effects give stealth only if the action is directed or > undirected (Creepshow Casino, Mirror's Visage, etc.) Do these effects > check the condition only once or are they constantly checking? The > main reason I'm asking is that if the directedness of an action > changes during the action, do these effects recheck the state? For > example: > A. I perform an undirected action, tapping Creepshow Casino for +1 > stealth. During the action, it becomes a directed action (probably due > to a change in control). Does the Creepshow stealth suddenly disappear > (since it is now directed) or does it only check when first used? > B. Similarly, I perform a directed action and play Mirror's Visage > at superior for +1 stealth. If the action later becomes undirected, do > I suddenly get an additional +1 stealth (due to Mirror's Visage which > was previously played)? There seems to be some confusion regarding an action changing its directedness, so let me explain: A. During your minion phase, you take a directed action at a vampire but during the action you burn Temptation counters to take control of that vampire (since you now control the target, the action becomes undirected). B. Similarly, during your prey's turn, you take an undirected action (Enkil Cog / Madness Network) targeting one of your own vampires but then your prey takes control of the target with Temptation (now the action is directed). C. There may also be situations where you take an undirected action with multiple targets, but during the action one or more of the targets are no longer valid (i.e. leave play), so the only remaining target is controlled by another player (making the action directed).

On Nov 17, 6:48 pm, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang...@yahoo.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Hummm.... I think that temptation should be rulled. Not be used in the middle of any action... it disrupts the game...

> C. There may also be situations where you take an undirected action > with multiple targets, but during the action one or more of the > targets are no longer valid (i.e. leave play), so the only remaining > target is controlled by another player (making the action directed). This concept has been changed generally. Any action that targets multiple targets is treated as a (D) action against the controllers of each of the targets. So any Methuselah with a target may react as if it was a (D) action against them.

JH wrote: > On Nov 17, 6:41 am, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang...@yahoo.com> > wrote: >> #1. When Sonja Blue blocks as an ally, her card text does not specify >> what type of ally she is. So since she is not blocking as a mortal or >> animal ally, then she's still technically a "monster" ally (for the >> purpose of Imbued cards). Right? > > She's a monster even as an ally, because she's not a mortal or an > animal. She's still technically a vampire (and a monster). She's just blocking as an ally (a monster ally, at that, yes, since it doesn't say mortal ally or animal ally, right). >> #2. Bond states: "Move an incapacitated imbued to his or her >> controller's ready region. That imbued gains a life (not to exceed his >> or her starting amount)." Rules state: "Note that an imbued gains a >> life (not to exceed his starting life) if he leaves the incapacitated >> region by any other effect, as well." Is the card text in Bond just >> reminder text, or does an Imbued get an additional life from the Bond >> (in addition to what she normally gets for leaving the incapacitated >> region)? (i.e. Imbued has no life and Bond is played. Does she come >> back with 1 or 2 life?). > > Gains an additional life (come back with 2 life more). Reminder text. (Comes back with the 1 life more specified). >> #3. Zelios cannot pay the partial cost of a location, right? (I have 3 >> pool and Zelios has 2 blood. I can't play Club Zombie, paying 2 pool >> and 2 blood from Zelios). Card text does not seem to allow it, but >> just doublechecking. > > Correct. Right. >> #4. The Erciyes Fragment can foil your prey's attempt to continue an >> action (e.g. Form of Mist), right? So my prey plays an action card and >> it is blocked (so the card goes to the ash heap). During combat, I can >> tap the Erciyes Fragment to remove the action card from his ash heap, >> preventing him from continuing the action. This issue was alluded to >> in one of the threads involving Massassi's Honor but I want to make >> sure. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/173210c5ed106356 >> #5. A --> B --> C >> >> Methuselah A controls Charriger the Axe. Methuseleh B has Kherebutu. >> During Methuselah C's turn, Kherebutu burns. Is he shuffled into his >> library (with no soul counter added) or is he removed from the game >> (adding a soul counter)? Since C is the acting player, I'm guessing he >> would get to decide whether A's Charriger effect or B's Kherebutu >> effect works first? > > Both effects fire regardless (assuming Charigger's controller makes > the choice). Kherebutu tries to shuffle himself into library as he is > burned, but Charigger says he is removed instead. So Kherebutu goes > out of the game. Correct. >> #6. White Nights Massacre states: "During your next discard phase, you >> must burn this card, and you may either burn a vampire in torpor or, >> by tapping a ready werewolf ally you control or discarding a White >> Nights Massacre from your hand, burn all vampires in torpor." Does the >> "you may either" mean you can choose A or B or neither? Or does it >> mean you are forced to choose either A or B (you can't choose >> neither)? > > Keyword *may*. You don't have to harm any vampires in torpor if you > don't want to. Correct. >> #7. In the last printing of Terror Frenzy (Legacies of Blood), card >> text was ""Opposing vampire burns an additional blood when playing >> combat cards this combat." Currently online text shows "<Combat cards >> cost the opposing vampire> an additional blood this combat." Does this >> affect the previous ruling stating that even with Dragos or Path >> cards, Terror Frenzy still requires burning blood? > > If the online text is accurate, then Dragos and Path would affect the > increased cost. Don't have a Legacies of Blood version at hand, so > can't double check that, but if it's really "burns an additional > blood" then Dragos and Path won't affect the cost, but you can play > free combat cards even if you have 0 blood. It's cost. >> #8. In combat, Methuselah A (acting) has his minion strike with hands >> (or a gun). Methuselah B strikes with the Ivory Bow. Methuselah A then >> attempts to play Claws of the Dead or Dragon's Breath Rounds. Can >> Methuselah B respond with a Rotschreck (they still haven't reached >> strike resolution) or is it too late? > > It's not too late to play R�tschreck. Correct. >> #9. Some cards/effects give stealth only if the action is directed or >> undirected (Creepshow Casino, Mirror's Visage, etc.) Do these effects >> check the condition only once or are they constantly checking? The >> main reason I'm asking is that if the directedness of an action >> changes during the action, do these effects recheck the state? For >> example: >> A. I perform an undirected action, tapping Creepshow Casino for +1 >> stealth. During the action, it becomes a directed action (probably due >> to a change in control). Does the Creepshow stealth suddenly disappear >> (since it is now directed) or does it only check when first used? >> B. Similarly, I perform a directed action and play Mirror's Visage >> at superior for +1 stealth. If the action later becomes undirected, do >> I suddenly get an additional +1 stealth (due to Mirror's Visage which >> was previously played)? > > Of Mirror's Visage I'm not certain but would say stays at +2 stealth. > Creepshow Casino's stealth would stay. Creepshow stays (card text). Mirror's Visage mirrors Foreshadowing's text (and result): it continuously checks.

On Nov 18, 3:49 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > >> #4. The Erciyes Fragment can foil your prey's attempt to continue an > >> action (e.g. Form of Mist), right? So my prey plays an action card and > >> it is blocked (so the card goes to the ash heap). During combat, I can > >> tap the Erciyes Fragment to remove the action card from his ash heap, > >> preventing him from continuing the action. This issue was alluded to > >> in one of the threads involving Massassi's Honor but I want to make > >> sure. > > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/1732... Followup question on this one: if in the above scenario the prey had a second (older) copy of the action card in question already in their ash heap, would that let them continue the action? Or does action continuation need & check for the specific copy of the action card?

[ quoted text not captured ] The specific card.