In my ever continuing quest to make a draftable base set of vampire
featuring all new cards making it possible to draft all the different
clans in vampire, with their disciplines, I have thought of this new
mechanic.
It was recently inspired by A Game of Thrones designer journal about
cards turning into cards of another type.
Sure we can have PA cards that turn into vampires, or actions that
paste on a vamp that can be burned for intercept and what not, but what
about Vampires that can be Library cards.
ooohh...
So here's my proposed mechanic. See what you think.
Cohort: While a vampire with the word 'cohort' is in your uncontrolled
region you may discard a card from your hand, not replacing it until
your discard phase, reveal the vampire (turn it face up) and use its
Cohort ability, as if you had just played a card of the type described
from your hand granting you that ability. You may only use a cohort
ability if the vampire is not revealed (face up). You may spend two
trasnfers to turn a revealed vampire face dow (this making it not
revealed).
(examples:
Cohort/ Combat. Strike: Dodge
Cohort/ Combat. Strike: Strength +1 damage.
Cohort/ Combat. Press.
Cohort/ Combat. Use before the press step. This vampire gains amount of
blood equal to the damage it successfully inflicted on the opposing
minion this round. This vampire may not play any additional cards this
round of combat.
Cohort/ PA. +1 stealth. Choose two methuselah. Sussessful referendum
means the choosen methuselah burn one pool.
Cohort/ PA. +1 stealth. Name a clan. Each Methuselah gains two pool if
they control a vampire belonging to that clan.
Cohort/ PA. +1 stealth. Choose a location in play. Successful
referendum means you gain control of that location until the end of
your next minion phase.
Cohort/ Reaction. Only useable during a political action. This vampire
gains two votes.
Cohort/ Reaction. Useable by a tapped vampire. This vampire may attempt
to block an action as though it were untapped. If it does not block
this action, it burns one blood.
Cohort/ AM. Use after being blocked. Both minions untap and the
resulting combat, if any, is canceled.
Cohort/ Action. D action. Bleed at +1 bleed.
Cohort/ Action. D action. Enter combat with a tapped minion controlled
by another methuselah.
Cohort/ Action. D action. Burn a location controlled by your predator
or prey.
Cohort/ Master. Put one blood from the blood bank on an unrevealed
vampire in your uncontrolled region.
Cohort/ Master. Reveal a vampire controlled by another methuselah.
Cohort/ Master. Your prey burns one pool. Use this ability only if you
prey controls a minion in torpor.
end of examples)
So in general these Cohort abilities are to replace certain key cards
generated in the game, and are to make vampires that would normally be
a dead card in draft more valuable. They'd be valued somewhere between
half a point to a point.
Tell me what you think, if you've the time.
Thanks.
Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> So here's my proposed mechanic. See what you think.
>
> Cohort: While a vampire with the word 'cohort' is in your uncontrolled
> region you may discard a card from your hand, not replacing it until
> your discard phase, reveal the vampire (turn it face up) and use its
> Cohort ability, as if you had just played a card of the type described
> from your hand granting you that ability. You may only use a cohort
> ability if the vampire is not revealed (face up). You may spend two
> trasnfers to turn a revealed vampire face dow (this making it not
> revealed).
>
> (examples:
[...]
> So in general these Cohort abilities are to replace certain key cards
> generated in the game, and are to make vampires that would normally be
> a dead card in draft more valuable. They'd be valued somewhere between
> half a point to a point.
> Tell me what you think, if you've the time.
Very nice.
I think the once-per-lap and uncontrolled region slot are cost enough
without adding two transfers to reset. Just have them all reset
automatically in the "controller's" influence phase (when you'd naturally
be looking at those face-up oddballs) or in the "controller's" untap
phase (when you're handling all the other mundane resets).
The only drawback I see, and it is a slight one, is the possible
confusion between a revealed uncontrolled vampire and a torporous
vampire. Not really that different between distinguishing
contested torporous vampires from uncontrolled vampires, though.
Easily enough solved by putting the revealed ones on their
heads (180 degrees from what an untapped torporous vampire looks
like, that is).
Of course, crypt cards being what they are, space is already at
a premium, so most cohorts would have to have relatively simple
"main" texts as well (in addition to keeping their cohort texts
simple, as you have done).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Thank you for your kind (and your so supportive its almost eerie)
comments. Means something when a new mechanic is referred to as 'very
nice' by the current designer of the game (though, I'm sorry to say,
not as cool as if the original designer of the game were to somehow
come out of torpor and comment... that'd be weird).
The 'pay transfers to reset' thing was just to make offensive revealing
of others uncontrolled minions a possibility, and to give something to
use transfers for in the latemiddle game. The timing of transfers would
effect what types of Cohort abilities would be weaker to this kind of
offensive revealing (actions aren't hosed at all if they reset during
untap of course). Though this sort of minute detail probably doesn't
hurt it in its function of being draftable.
I had two other mechanics that played with uncontrolled vampires. One
called scout, which let you 'use' an uncontrolled minion to sort
through the top five cards of your library to find a card that the
scout could use and then put it into your hand. Another called Spy,
which worked the same way, but on your opponents ibrary (discarding it
instead of putting it in your hand). Both of these helped draft a bit,
but didn't help the actual design of the set. You know... squeezing in
enough disciplineless cards into a 400 card set that's trying to cover
every clan and discipline in the game...
~SV
In message <1102809189.3...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Screaming Vermillian <vermil...@yahoo.com> writes:
>Cohort: While a vampire with the word 'cohort' is in your uncontrolled
>region you may discard a card from your hand, not replacing it until
>your discard phase, reveal the vampire (turn it face up) and use its
>Cohort ability, as if you had just played a card of the type described
>from your hand granting you that ability. You may only use a cohort
>ability if the vampire is not revealed (face up). You may spend two
>trasnfers to turn a revealed vampire face dow (this making it not
>revealed).
I have a few mild concerns.
First of all, a number of common defences become depowered. For
instance, it's quite common to have Direct Intervention, Sudden Reversal
and Bleeding the Vine around for random weirdness interaction.
(Possibly Rewind Time, if available, but that's several orders of
magnitude less likely.)
That cards can be made to go away with such tactics, or blocking, can be
of great utility. They can't call them again. Interacting with these
is going to be much harder.
Also, I'm vaguely concerned that it encourages bad deck building in the
sense that it doesn't matter quite so much what you put in, you can
always use it with a cohort. And the chances of getting your vampires
reasonably early in the crypt are generally much better than out of 60
to 90 library cards, unlike if some of these abilities were on (say) a
Master card or Event card.
There aren't, in general, many good reasons for interacting with another
Methuselah's uncontrolled region - Might of the Camarilla, Memory's
Fading Glimpse etc. (I know the fanset is aimed at its own cards, but I
a) can't remember half of them and b) this is a general true-ism.) So
you'd probably want to include some sort of cards that interact with
them, but they're probably not enough to warrant their own card. So
you'd be heading for 'fallback' levels, or alternative uses, or Anarch
three-way type affairs with this as one option. (e.g. The Diamond
Thunderbolt has two different uses, Distraction has two radically
different uses, Friend of Mine is quite weird.) But then, what I
remember of the last time I perused the fan set, there were a lot of
cards already doing multi-functional things and I'd be loathe to water
it down more.
None of this is show-stopping. More just... hmm...
>Cohort/ Combat. Strike: Dodge
[...]
>Cohort/ AM. Use after being blocked. Both minions untap and the
>resulting combat, if any, is canceled.
See, between the two of these, a big vampire deck can be doing quite
well. Doesn't matter so much what it draws, it can kill your
combat/blocking quite nastily if it can get a few cohorts.
I'm not sure I like what happens when you start drawing several cohorts
(Effective Management, spending your transfers etc.) and they start
building up like that.
Also, what happens if I have several of the same cohort? Can I reveal a
cohort if I already have the same cohort revealed? What about if
someone else does? I quite like the idea of a cohort being "unique" in
that fashion - but that also means that the first person to use it gets
control if you go for the "untap phase" element that LSJ suggested.
>Cohort/ Master. Reveal a vampire controlled by another methuselah.
Minor pedant: Assuming you mean an unrevealed vampire (e.g. a cohort in
their uncontrolled region), they wouldn't be "controlled" by another
Methuselah. You'd want to use the "in another Methuselah's uncontrolled
region" wording, or similar.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though!
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.
A simple rule saying that if a card were to cancel the effect of a
Cohort ability the cohort gets revealed and the effect ceases to
happen. Its treated as though it were a card being played from your
hand, I'd think. Granted the wording isn't 100% yet.
And these are supposed to be mild powers, but general enough that they
are 'staples' of decks. Disciplineless cards like Fake Out and Trap and
Taste of Vitae. They are 'ho hum', but they are neccesities in base
sets, I think.
Thank you for recalling my original base set, as well, James. I was
primarily thinking of including these in that set, but realized that it
was a bit of, well... repetitive. I was now thinking of using less
'two-ways' and eliminating a lot of the weird Pillar abilities
(nullferiors if you remember correctly).
You have an interesting point that these Cohorts will be making a big
vampire deck good. Its own Strike: Dodge and Change of Target whenever
it wanted once per turn would be good. But what would your crypt be
like? 5-6 copies of Big Guy and then 3 of Dodge Cohort and 3 of the
Change of Target Cohort? I hope you really don't need another vampire,
cause it's not likely that those two Cohort will be very playable with
the Big Guy.
Really, I'd just have to be careful in the creation of these, were they
to ever see any Actual Existence that is.
And multiple cohorts was supposed to mean multiple uses of that
ability, though, if it proved (or theorized) to be out of hand, I
suppose one could limit it to one use of a named vampires cohort
ability per turn. Wouldn't kill draft all that much. However, limiting
it to a Cohort escalation war would (Minion A's cohort ability couldn't
be used while Minion A is revealed, or in play), so I was hoping the
wording implied there was no uniqueness here (vampires don't contest
until they become controlled you know...).
And you commented that it wouldn't matter what you'd put in, that you'd
always be able to use it with a Cohort... You'd have to HAVE those
Cohorts in your uncontrolled region. Perhaps you thought that a Cohort
would have access to ALL of those powers I listed. No. They'd have ONE.
Here's a sample vampire, for instance:
Minderz
!Nosferatu
7
DOM POT ani obf
Archbishop of Seatle
Cohort/ Reaction. During a bleed action, reduce the amount of bleed by
a younger minion by one.
Ok, that's a big ability and I'm not incredibly happy with what clan
has it (I guess I wanted a guy with DOM to have it and didn't look at
the clan when I gave it to him), but you see what I mean. If you want
that in your assamite deck, you're going to be packing copies of
Minderz, and probably not transferring him into play (unless you
assamite deck has a use for DOM POT ani obf and/or archbishop title).
Thanks for your time. What kind of cohort abilities would you like to
see, or would you think would assist a draft set?
~SV
On 14 Dec 2004 02:56:19 -0800, <x5m...@gmx.de> wrote:
> My problem: Non abstract games usually trie to reflect some reality in
> a playable form, even if this reality is a fantasy. VTES is very strong
> in that case and has many mechanics that reflect very good the (old)
> Word opf Darkness, a fantasy world that is also the background for
> other games.
>
> What are your mechanics reflecting?
> I personal dont want VTES turned into an abstract card game.
Anything.
Having a vampire in your crypt means that he or she is part of your
agennda.
Having him or her in your uncontrolled region means that he or she
is also within the minute grasp of your decissated talons.
Using their Cohort ability simply means that you exploit that grasp
without extending your control over them just yet.
--
Bye,
Daneel
In message <1102983307.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Screaming Vermillian <vermil...@yahoo.com> writes:
>A simple rule saying that if a card were to cancel the effect of a
>Cohort ability the cohort gets revealed and the effect ceases to
>happen. Its treated as though it were a card being played from your
>hand, I'd think. Granted the wording isn't 100% yet.
Well, it's not just that. Compare Direct Intervention:
"Burn a minion card as it is played."
Ditto Sudden Reversal:
"Burn a master card played by another Methuselah as that card is
played."
These aren't cards that are actually played. They're lines of text on a
Cohort. So those cancellation cards don't work.
Of course, you could make the Cohort rule say "...as if this was a card
played from your hand" or somesuch, but that gets icky.
>And these are supposed to be mild powers, but general enough that they
>are 'staples' of decks. Disciplineless cards like Fake Out and Trap and
>Taste of Vitae. They are 'ho hum', but they are neccesities in base
>sets, I think.
There's a number of really quite good things you've put in there too,
however. Gain two pool is a strong possibility, as is being able to
cancel combat when blocked.
>You have an interesting point that these Cohorts will be making a big
>vampire deck good. Its own Strike: Dodge and Change of Target whenever
>it wanted once per turn would be good. But what would your crypt be
>like? 5-6 copies of Big Guy and then 3 of Dodge Cohort and 3 of the
>Change of Target Cohort? I hope you really don't need another vampire,
>cause it's not likely that those two Cohort will be very playable with
>the Big Guy.
Well, that depends on how many cohorts there are, and how different they
are, and how hard they are to play with the random big vampires who'd
benefit.
The first is controllable - but if you make too few, the mechanic never
gets used.
The second is also controllable - but difference isn't just about actual
difference. Yeah, that says "Strike: Dodge" and this says "A vampire
who is attempting to block you either burns one blood or has his block
attempt cancelled" (picking random ideas from my head), but they're both
good for a big vampire deck that doesn't want to be blocked and killed,
say. Any two random abilities may work well together like that, with a
little effort.
The third is hard to do anything about, however. New vampires are
possible, and it's always easy to just miss a possibility when creating
things. Never underestimate the ability to just design something and
miss an "obvious" possibility for everyone else.
Also, in a mono-vampire deck (say), what happens if the Cohort is also
the mono-vampire? e.g.
Random Vampire
Gangrel
6 cap
ANI for pro
Primogen
Cohort: The vampire using this Cohort may burn a blood to deal 1
environment damage during the first Strike Resolution during a round of
combat.
In this example, it's a weak version of Carrion Crows. That just seemed
to work in my head, however.
Can Random Vampire use Random Vampire when he's a Cohort? What about if
you have 5 Random Vampires in your uncontrolled region?
(This is another reason I wonder about "contesting" Cohorts.)
>And multiple cohorts was supposed to mean multiple uses of that
>ability, though, if it proved (or theorized) to be out of hand, I
>suppose one could limit it to one use of a named vampires cohort
>ability per turn. Wouldn't kill draft all that much. However, limiting
>it to a Cohort escalation war would (Minion A's cohort ability couldn't
>be used while Minion A is revealed, or in play), so I was hoping the
>wording implied there was no uniqueness here (vampires don't contest
>until they become controlled you know...).
No, I was implying that maybe there *should* be something like
"contesting", because of the possibilities of repetitive usage across
multiple copies of vampires.
>And you commented that it wouldn't matter what you'd put in, that you'd
>always be able to use it with a Cohort... You'd have to HAVE those
>Cohorts in your uncontrolled region. Perhaps you thought that a Cohort
>would have access to ALL of those powers I listed. No.
No, not at all.
>They'd have ONE.
>Here's a sample vampire, for instance:
>
>Minderz
>!Nosferatu
>7
>DOM POT ani obf
>Archbishop of Seatle
>Cohort/ Reaction. During a bleed action, reduce the amount of bleed by
>a younger minion by one.
You'll need to be clear about who things like "younger" apply to. Is it
younger than the acting vampire, or younger than the cohort? (Either
way is possible.)
>Ok, that's a big ability and I'm not incredibly happy with what clan
>has it (I guess I wanted a guy with DOM to have it and didn't look at
>the clan when I gave it to him), but you see what I mean. If you want
>that in your assamite deck, you're going to be packing copies of
>Minderz, and probably not transferring him into play (unless you
>assamite deck has a use for DOM POT ani obf and/or archbishop title).
I'm not entirely happy with the vampire in general, but that's a
separate issue.
But, sure, it'll be hard to use with an Assamite deck. But then, Kali's
Fang is hard to use with a Ventrue deck.
It's not just the clans you exclude him from use with that you have to
consider. How many clans can he work *well* with?
>Thanks for your time. What kind of cohort abilities would you like to
>see, or would you think would assist a draft set?
It would tend to depend on the contents of the rest of the set, and also
on how the Cohort ability worked in the end, and also on whether the set
was *only* for drafting. It would also depend on how many counter-
cohort options there were, and how worthwhile they were. If anti-cohort
cards are free and plentiful, with many options to hand or other levels
of card that you can use to achieve your ends when cohort-ism isn't an
issue, you could probably get away with more fun.
For instance, in a drafting only set, a Sybil's Tongue type ability
might be useful - being able to find specific cards, or semi-specific
cards (e.g. first equipment in your deck), or whatever. This could
counter-act the general lameness (comparatively) of most drafting decks.
On the flip-side, this would be worth a lot in a constructed deck. It
could also give a drafting deck a big advantage, if it was a hard to get
ability, or if it was unlikely that other decks would have good cohort
abilities meaning that you'd never draft the anti-cohort cards etc.
I'd also be wary of the possibility of thinking "Oh, it's okay, we can
compensate for the difficulty of building a good drafting deck by doing
this cool Cohort thing" and ending up with a mishmash of library cards
as a result. Or screwing up crypt cards in the same way.
[ quoted text not captured ]