Sorry to post this so often, but the changes warrant it, so:
-----
Additions and comments should be sent to: sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu
Please include the text "house rule" in the subject line.
NOTE: Some rules are mix-n-match, some are mutually exclusive. Take what
you want and ignore the rest.
Opposition to a particular house rule is marked with -INI- (instead of
[INI], which indicates support).
House Rules
===========
Fixing what's Broken
--------------------
Bringing unbalancing cards into line, making the game playable.
o. Reaction cards can be played by Minions controlled by a Methuselah
other than the Methuselah controlling the acting Minion, even on
your own turn.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT]
o. Cards which cannot be used by vampires going to torpor (Pulled Fangs,
Amaranth) cannot be used by a vampire burned in combat, either.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT]
Bonding - only one of Bonding, Condition, or Threats Card may be used
during a single action.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC]
Charming Lobby - use as an action to call a vote at +1 stealth. If
successful, call a vote by playing a Political Action card or by naming
a vote allowed by a card in play. If the vote succeeds, the next vote
will pass as well.
[LSJ] [JHJ] [JC]
use as an action to call a vote at +1 stealth. If successful, a vote is
called to determine whether the next vote will pass. A successful vote
means the next vote called will pass automatically.
[CSA] [SHWT]
Conditioning - see Bonding.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT]
Fame - is a unique Master, contested by the vampire exactly as a title
would be contested.
[JF]
Malkavian Madness Network - makes it the turn of the Methuselah controlling
the acting Malkavian. After the action, the original Methuselah can
continue her turn.
[JC] [JF]
Monocle of Clarity - may not refer to future questions, answers, statements,
nor commands. If it invokes a relationship (p -> q), then the answerer is
free to make p true without regard to her ability to make the relationship
agree with her answer. Once p is true, the answerer becomes bound to make
the relationship agree with her answer, if possible.
[LSJ] [JHJ]
may be used only to gather information, not to bind commands.
[JC]
-JF- -LSJ-
must be answered with "Yes" or "No" [could be intuited, -lsj]
[JF]
does not bind the answerer if the answerer can demonstrate that the
phrasing of the question prevents something from occuring regardless
of whether the answer was Yes or No (i.e., the question must allow a
perfect partition of future answerer actions). [this is an inherent
quality of all Yes/No questions, so should not come up; so the rule
is useful for people without computers to parse every question -lsj]
[JF]
may be romoved from the game if all players not controlling the
Monocle of Clarity agree that the questioner abundantly demonstrates
that he is being a dick and/or formulaically unclever.
[JF]
Threats - see Bonding.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ]
Clarifications and Design Considerations
----------------------------------------
Correcting rules that work satisfactorily to begin with (includes wallpaper).
o. An action with the (D) symbol is directed, and can only be blocked by
the target Methuseleh or the target card's controller. An action
without the (D) symbol is undirected and can only be blocked by the
acting Methuseleh's prey or predator. An action not directed against
another Methuselah is considered undirected. The presence or absence
of the (D) symbol has no effect on determination of legal targets.
[CSA] [LSJ] [JHJ] [SHWT]
as above, but Computer Hacking may be directed at any Methuselah.
[JC]
o. Master Out-of-Turn cards may be played whenever appropriate in lieu
of you next Master Phase, as per the rulebook.
[LSJ] [JHJ]
o. Definition of "same action". For the purposes of cards that prohibit
the "same action", if an action defined in the rulebook (bleed, equip,
recruit ally, recruit retainer, political action, hunt, encounter
vampire in torpor, leave torpor) is accomplished more than once, it is
considered the same action even if the target changes or a different
action card is used. Likewise, any such action accomplished without a
card is considered the same as the same action accomplished with an
action card.
[CSA] [SHWT]
o. No more than one of any particular action modifier may be played or
used during any particular action, even if the acting minion changes.
This does not apply to minions that are not the acting minion when they
play the card.
[CSA]
o. Combat cannot occur with a vampire in torpor. Diablerie is possible
if the opposing minion is a ready vampire, otherwise nothing happens.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT]
o. Strike: Combat Ends resolves during normal strike resolution (still
cancelling first strikes). If the opposing strike is also: End Combat,
then both have their usual effect.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT]
o. Only Methuselehs other than the acting Methuseleh may use additional
political action cards for votes.
[CSA]
-LSJ-
Blood Rage - requires (th) not (fo).
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT]
Brujah Frenzy - may be played only on a Ready Brujah. Can only send the
Acting Brujah into combat with a Ready Minion.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JC] [SHWT]
Chainsaw - is a melee weapon
[CSA] [LX] [JC] [JF]
does 3 damage each strike. Only usable once per round.
[JHJ]
Concealed Weapon - does not require (ob).
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [JF]
Day Operation - is unblockable, even with the aid of Eagle's Sight.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [HAR] [JC] [SHWT]
Deflection - replace the superior version with "as above, plus the reacting
vampire can pay 1 blood and not be tapped by Deflection"
[CSA]
Eagle's Sight - allows only the attempt to block. Attempting to block an
unblockable action is futile.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [HAR] [JC] [SHWT]
Earth Meld - costs 1 blood from the acting vampire.
[CSA]
Elder Kindred Network - has no effect if the vote is successful.
[TOM] [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT]
Enchant Kindred - is at +1 stealth when attempting the superior version.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT]
Faceless Night - taps any minion who attempted to block when the action
becomes blocked or when the action resolves, as appropriate.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT]
Fame - affects the controller of the card that did the damage that caused
the vampire to enter torpor. If the vampire is sent to torpor by a
special card, such as Day Operation, it affects the controller of that
card.
[CSA] [JC]
-LSJ-
Form of Mist - costs 1 blood from the vampire playing it.
[CSA]
Freak Drive - costs 2 blood from the acting vampire.
[CSA]
Frenzy - may be played even if you have no Minions involved in the Combat.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC]
Lextalionis - may be called when a Methuselah has gained a victory point
since the start (untap) of your last turn.
[LSJ] [JHJ] [CSA] [JC] [SHWT]
Majesty - costs 1 blood from the vampire playing it.
[CSA]
Malkavian Dementia - returns the affected Malkavian at the *end* of the
untap phase.
[JF]
-LSJ-
Misdirection - costs 2*X to tap X minions.
[CSA]
costs 2+X to tap X minions.
[JC]
Obedience - costs 1 blood from the reacting vampire.
[CSA]
Parity Shift - may only redistribute pool up to the difference between the
selected Methuselah's pool and your own pool.
[LSJ] [CSA]
-JC-
Rampage - is not directed (D) when used to burn a location that you control.
[JF]
Rotschreck - hoses the vampire about to *deal* aggravated damage.
[JF]
Sport Bike - is not optional.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT]
Talbot's Chainsaw - does not force it's weilder to attack with it during
the controller's minion phase; it is merely an option.
[JC] [LSJ]
Taste of Vitae - only one of these may be played per minion per round.
[LSJ] [CSA] [LX] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [JF]
only counts blood lost to damage.
[CSA] [LSJ] [LX] [SHWT]
is only usable at close range.
[CSA] [LSJ] [SHWT] [JF]
The 2nd Tradition - may be used by an untapped Prince/Justicar for +2
intercept.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT]
The 5th Tradition - may not be used to refill the acting vampire
[CSA]
Wake with Evening's Freshness - costs 1 blood from the reacting vampire.
[CSA]
requires Thaumaturgy.
[JF]
Game World Considerations
--------------------------
Changes to make the card game feel like, or reflect the mechanics of, the
"real" world (where vampires exist, of course).
o. Actions by vampires in torpor can be blocked by Kindred ONLY.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT]
o. Transferring equipment from a vampire in torpor can be done by
Kindred ONLY.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT]
Camarilla Exemplary - does not require an Ally to pay life to attempt to
block.
[HAR]
Chainsaw - begins each combat "off". Does 3 damage each strike if it
began the round of combat "on". The minion holding it may use a Strike:
start chainsaw to turn the chainsaw "on". Strike: start chainsaw is
unaffected by Strike: dodge (or other non-attack strike).
[LSJ]
Chantry - may be applied during Untap, not Master phase.
[LSJ]
Day Operation - is as blockable by Allies (Kine), as a normal action
would be. (Intercept still required, of course).
[SHWT]
Haven Uncovered - does not prevent its victim from being attacked in torpor.
[LSJ] [SHWT]
Rotshreck - must target a vampire actually targetted by an act which would
cause aggravated damage. If the act is unperformed (due to Combat Ends or
steal/destroy equipment with first strike, e.g.), Rotshreck may not be
used. This does not apply if the damage is foiled (by dodge, fortitude,
Merril Molitor, Blood Rage/Fury, e.g.)
[LSJ] [JHJ] [JC]
is played only during damage resolution. May take into account damage
occurring by means other than strikes, such as Weather Control.
[CSA]
may be played any time the possibility of taking aggravated damage exists.
[LX]
Zip Gun - is a Weapon, but not a Weapon: Gun. (It may not use ammunition).
[CSA]
----------
[CSA] - Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
[HAR] - Harpua (rho...@itsmail1.hamilton.edu)
[JC] - Joseph Cochran (js...@vt.edu)
[JF] - Jon Ferro (fe...@chem.cmu.edu)
[JHJ] - J. Hunter Johnson (jhun...@io.com)
[LSJ] - L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu)
[LX] - Larrx (la...@acs.bu.edu)
[SHWT]- Shane H. W. Travis (sht...@duke.usask.ca)
Contributor to the list without his knowledge:
[TOM] - Thomas R Wylie, WotC Net.Rep (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu)
In article <3m3gi8$k...@redwood.cs.scarolina.edu>
sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes:
>Concealed Weapon - does not require (ob).
> [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [JF]
I don't particularly see the point to this one, particularly since it
leaves (ob) with one fewer cards than all the other disciplines (considering
the blood rage fix, natch.)
However, if you do make that change, you I strongly suggest adding a
"Do not replace this card until the end of combat" to it, just like all
other non-discipline combat cards.
In article <17379B8CAS...@utcvm.utc.edu>,
<JRA...@utcvm.utc.edu> wrote:
>>Concealed Weapon - does not require (ob).>I don't particularly see the point to this one, particularly since it
>leaves (ob) with one fewer cards than all the other disciplines (considering
>the blood rage fix, natch.)
Actually, if you check the discipline cards, you'll find that
Thaumaturgy has one fewer common than the "normal" number, and Fortitude
and Obfuscate have one more common than the "normal" number. Moving
Blood Rage to Thau. fixes those two disciplines, and removing the Obf.
from Concealed Weapon (which is in every way inferior to Disguised
Weapon and has no superior form listed) balances it so that all
disciplines have an equal number of cards.
| If you've got a hot lead on a new | *--Joe--*
| PC game, call the announce line at | js...@vt.edu
| ** csi...@discus.ise.vt.edu ** |
+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------
"Carnivores, oy!" -- Timon, TLK
JRA...@utcvm.utc.edu wrote:
: In article <3m3gi8$k...@redwood.cs.scarolina.edu>: sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes::
: >Concealed Weapon - does not require (ob).: > [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [JF]: I don't particularly see the point to this one, particularly since it: leaves (ob) with one fewer cards than all the other disciplines (considering
: the blood rage fix, natch.): However, if you do make that change, you I strongly suggest adding a: "Do not replace this card until the end of combat" to it, just like all
: other non-discipline combat cards.:
The point is that concealed weapon has the same cost as disguised weapon, but
concealed weapon has no superior version, and concealed weapon limits the
weapons that you can equip with it. It is in every way inferior to disguised
weapon, and if it has the same cost, there is NO reason to play with it ever.
And teh commons work out fine. Obfuscate had an extra.
Larrx...
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu) wrote:
: Sorry to post this so often, but the changes warrant it, so:
This is David's post... all opinions here are David's... the responses
in here do not neccessarily involve those of others :'>
BTW, I'm not responding to anything which is already based on the rules ;'>
: o. Reaction cards can be played by Minions controlled by a Methuselah: other than the Methuselah controlling the acting Minion, even on
: your own turn.
: [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT]
I've told you time and time again, this rule does NOT work because of
the vote cards which go along... the ones where you cash 2 or 4
votes are made SPECIFICALLY for the anti of this rule. Also, you have
just made it possible for me to WWeF another vampire's vampires (and
if you really want, I can list several possibilites of times you want to
do this).
: use as an action to call a vote at +1 stealth. If successful, a vote is: called to determine whether the next vote will pass. A successful vote
: means the next vote called will pass automatically.
: [CSA] [SHWT]
Ummm... the whole point of Charming Lobby is to make sure the next vote
is passed if this one does. What's the point of the second vïte? If
you actually have the pull to pass the next vote regardless, it'll pass
anyway... if you don't, charming lobby becomes useless
: Fame - is a unique Master, contested by the vampire exactly as a title
: would be contested.
: [JF]
Hmmm... I prefer the ruling which says that Fame is burned after that
vampire goes to torpor.... and only 1 allowed per deck... you're still
managing to do 3 blood damage to your prey and 1 to everyone else, which
is a very powerful thing
: Monocle of Clarity - may not refer to future questions, answers, statements,: nor commands. If it invokes a relationship (p -> q), then the answerer is
: free to make p true without regard to her ability to make the relationship
: agree with her answer. Once p is true, the answerer becomes bound to make
: the relationship agree with her answer, if possible.
: [LSJ] [JHJ]: may be used only to gather information, not to bind commands.
: [JC]
: -JF- -LSJ-
I like this one.
: does not bind the answerer if the answerer can demonstrate that the: phrasing of the question prevents something from occuring regardless
: of whether the answer was Yes or No (i.e., the question must allow a
: perfect partition of future answerer actions). [this is an inherent
: quality of all Yes/No questions, so should not come up; so the rule
: is useful for people without computers to parse every question -lsj]
: [JF]
Hmmm... why make things so d*mn complicated :'>.. just keep to the rule
listed before this one, and let it go.... not say in the middle of the
game "OK... who votes that was a cheesy question?"
: may be romoved from the game if all players not controlling the: Monocle of Clarity agree that the questioner abundantly demonstrates
: that he is being a dick and/or formulaically unclever.
: [JF]
See above
: Clarifications and Design Considerations: ----------------------------------------
: Correcting rules that work satisfactorily to begin with (includes wallpaper).: another Methuselah is considered undirected. The presence or absence: of the (D) symbol has no effect on determination of legal targets.
: [CSA] [LSJ] [JHJ] [SHWT]
Actually, it does... cross table bleedings are a GOOD thing to be able to
do..... I like directing actions against others (it keeps them from calling
votes which I can't block against me... kinda a "Revenge thing" (you screw
me I'll screw you)).
: o. No more than one of any particular action modifier may be played or: used during any particular action, even if the acting minion changes.
: This does not apply to minions that are not the acting minion when they
: play the card.
: [CSA]
I can think of MANY reasons why you need to action modify more than once ;'>
: o. Strike: Combat Ends resolves during normal strike resolution (still: cancelling first strikes). If the opposing strike is also: End Combat,
: then both have their usual effect.
: [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT]
I disagree entirly..... non-combat decks NEED ways to avoid combat... if
you play with 4 card limit, this isn't even an issue (but since most
won't it is :'>).... even if you don't, they put a LOT of cards in so
they can strike: combat ends to risk huge amounts of damage... with your
ruling, I strike combat ends, john brujah counterstrikes, and then uses
something for a few additional strikes and kills me and I can't do anything.
: o. Only Methuselehs other than the acting Methuseleh may use additional: political action cards for votes.
: [CSA]
: -LSJ-
Ummmmm.... NO! Those of us who call votes need to get them passed :'>...
you're trying to kill political decks who want to get really odd evil
votes going (1st tradition and such)
: Blood Rage - requires (th) not (fo).: [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT]
I thought about this... and decided against it. Theft of Vitae does
everything this card does, at range, with the added bonus that you
gain the blood. In every aspect, theft of vitae would be superior to
the (th) version of this card... regardless of what the RPing game
says
: Chainsaw - is a melee weapon
: [CSA] [LX] [JC] [JF]
Agreed
: does 3 damage each strike. Only usable once per round.
: [JHJ]
Makes it WAY too powerful ;'>
: Concealed Weapon - does not require (ob).: [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [JF]
agreed
: Deflection - replace the superior version with "as above, plus the reacting: vampire can pay 1 blood and not be tapped by Deflection"
: [CSA]
You're trying to make Deflection and Telapathic Misdirection the same card?
: Earth Meld - costs 1 blood from the acting vampire.
: [CSA]
Why? It's not that powerful... rememmber, presense is a "smorgasboard"
of the best of all worlds... it's MADE such that in every instance
it's a little less powerful than the origional discipline. Therefore,
Majesty should be a little worse than Earth Meld (will still be used
more by clans which aren't gangrel).
: Enchant Kindred - is at +1 stealth when attempting the superior version.: [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT]
Hmmm... could be see above, but this one does have a valid point... I
agree... it's still less powerful than Enchant Kindred.
: Fame - affects the controller of the card that did the damage that caused: the vampire to enter torpor. If the vampire is sent to torpor by a
: special card, such as Day Operation, it affects the controller of that
: card.
: [CSA] [JC]
: -LSJ-
Not a bad ruling on fame. I like it.
: Form of Mist - costs 1 blood from the vampire playing it.
: [CSA]
Why? It's only an extra stealth
: Freak Drive - costs 2 blood from the acting vampire.
: [CSA]
Why? All these changes of cost will get VERY confusing during game play.
: Majesty - costs 1 blood from the vampire playing it.
: [CSA]
See abve AGAIN... god, this CSA guy wants to make things really complicated
:'>
: Misdirection - costs 2*X to tap X minions.
: [CSA]
See above AGAIN! (ARGH!) it's not that powerful
If you change the cost of everything, might as well change the cost
of nothing.
: Obedience - costs 1 blood from the reacting vampire.
: [CSA]
Especially this card... this card SUCKS!
: Parity Shift - may only redistribute pool up to the difference between the: selected Methuselah's pool and your own pool.
: [LSJ] [CSA]
: -JC-
Disagree, but that's just cause Parity Shift is one of my favorites...
if you insist on making it this unpowerful, than remove the Prince/
Justicar restriction
: Rampage - is not directed (D) when used to burn a location that you control.
: [JF]
Why not? If you want to burn your own location, be my guest :'>.. should
be allowed with no block :'>
: Taste of Vitae - only one of these may be played per minion per round.: [LSJ] [CSA] [LX] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [JF]
Ehhh.... this isn't THAT powerful a card.
: only counts blood lost to damage.
: [CSA] [LSJ] [LX] [SHWT]
as above
: is only usable at close range.
: [CSA] [LSJ] [SHWT] [JF]
as above
: The 5th Tradition - may not be used to refill the acting vampire
: [CSA]
Hmmm... interesting... I actually like this ruling
: Wake with Evening's Freshness - costs 1 blood from the reacting vampire.
: [CSA]
Once again, a card which just isn't that powerful being blown out of
proportion
: requires Thaumaturgy.
: [JF]
Really disagree, but if you're going to do this to make it like the RPing
game, remove the "DO NOT REPLACE UNTIL AFTER COMBAT"
: Camarilla Exemplary - does not require an Ally to pay life to attempt to
: block.
: [HAR]
It should ;'>
: Chainsaw - begins each combat "off". Does 3 damage each strike if it: began the round of combat "on". The minion holding it may use a Strike:
: start chainsaw to turn the chainsaw "on". Strike: start chainsaw is
: unaffected by Strike: dodge (or other non-attack strike).
: [LSJ]
I have absolutly no idea what LSJ just said :'>
: Chantry - may be applied during Untap, not Master phase.
: [LSJ]
Why?
: Haven Uncovered - does not prevent its victim from being attacked in
torpor. : [LSJ] [SHWT]
No combat occurs in torpor.
: Zip Gun - is a Weapon, but not a Weapon: Gun. (It may not use ammunition).
: [CSA]
Sure it can... one of the beauties of it :'>..... remember, you're
not taking 1 damage per combat for nothing.
[DL] - David Leader - contested Prince of Atlanta
In article <3m3uhp$5...@moe.cc.emory.edu> dle...@larry.cc.emory.edu (David Leader) writes:
>L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu) wrote:>: o. Reaction cards can be played by Minions controlled by a Methuselah
>: other than the Methuselah controlling the acting Minion, even on
>: your own turn.
>: [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT]
>I've told you time and time again, this rule does NOT work because of
>the vote cards which go along... the ones where you cash 2 or 4
>votes are made SPECIFICALLY for the anti of this rule.
Read the rule again (RTRA). It doesn't do that.
>: use as an action to call a vote at +1 stealth. If successful, a vote is
>: called to determine whether the next vote will pass. A successful vote
>: means the next vote called will pass automatically.
>: [CSA] [SHWT]>Ummm... the whole point of Charming Lobby is to make sure the next vote
>is passed if this one does. What's the point of the second vïte? If
>you actually have the pull to pass the next vote regardless, it'll pass
>anyway... if you don't, charming lobby becomes useless
Actually, I think there is only 1 vote here. There are several reasons:
to conserve a Pol. card, to prevent reactions usable only during
political actions from being played, and to allow a non-prince
to pave the way for a Prince/Justicar vote. Also, the Superior
version has 2 votes.
>: o. No more than one of any particular action modifier may be played or
>: used during any particular action, even if the acting minion changes.
>: This does not apply to minions that are not the acting minion when they
>: play the card.
>: [CSA]
>I can think of MANY reasons why you need to action modify more than once ;'>
The /SAME/ action modifier? I'd like to hear about them. It seems
to me that the only case Net Personality can think of is double
Dominate a Mask of 1000 Faces Bleed.
>
>: o. Strike: Combat Ends resolves during normal strike resolution (still
>: cancelling first strikes). If the opposing strike is also: End Combat,
>: then both have their usual effect.
>: [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT]>I disagree entirly.....
RTRA.
>: o. Only Methuselehs other than the acting Methuseleh may use additional
>: political action cards for votes.
>: [CSA]
>: -LSJ-
>Ummmmm.... NO! Those of us who call votes need to get them passed :'>...
>you're trying to kill political decks who want to get really odd evil
>votes going (1st tradition and such)
1st Tradition will pass if there is a weenie horde player everybody
hates. If your group vote down those kinds of votes in every
situation, IMO they are not (strategically) mature enough.
>: Blood Rage - requires (th) not (fo).
>: [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT]
>I thought about this... and decided against it. Theft of Vitae does
>everything this card does, at range, with the added bonus that you
>gain the blood. In every aspect, theft of vitae would be superior to
>the (th) version of this card... regardless of what the RPing game
>says
That would be a possible card balance problem of Theft of Vitae.
This has nothing to do with which Discipline Blood Rage should be.
>: Deflection - replace the superior version with "as above, plus the reacting
>: vampire can pay 1 blood and not be tapped by Deflection"
>: [CSA]
>You're trying to make Deflection and Telapathic Misdirection the same card?
Huh? Does Deflection give you +1 intercept? Does Telepathic
Misdirection allow you to not tap the Bleed Bouncing vampire?
>: Form of Mist - costs 1 blood from the vampire playing it.
>: [CSA]
>Why? It's only an extra stealth
... if the card untaps the opposing minion.
>: Freak Drive - costs 2 blood from the acting vampire.
>: [CSA]
>Why? All these changes of cost will get VERY confusing during game play.
If all tournaments get won by decks with 20+ Freak Dirves in 8
turns, people will begin to appreciate this kind of change.
>: Majesty - costs 1 blood from the vampire playing it.
>: [CSA]
>See abve AGAIN... god, this CSA guy wants to make things really complicated
A Majesty-bleed deck is not as annoying as Misdirection, but
bad enough.
>: Taste of Vitae - only one of these may be played per minion per round.
>: [LSJ] [CSA] [LX] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [JF]
>Ehhh.... this isn't THAT powerful a card.
Because it is rare. Even with this house rule, every tournament combat
deck /has to/ contain a few of them. Without this house rule,
every tourny combat deck will have a pile of them, as they are
easily disposible, with benefit.
>: Zip Gun - is a Weapon, but not a Weapon: Gun. (It may not use ammunition).
>: [CSA]
>Sure it can... one of the beauties of it :'>..... remember, you're
>not taking 1 damage per combat for nothing.
The problem is, you're not taking 1 damage per combat, you're
taking 1 damage for only 1 combat, during which the Zip Gun
gets burned. Tremere will be totally wallpaper, as Malk.
decks have 20 Zip Guns and 20 Dragonbreath Rounds. Nosferatsu
decks /have to/ have 10+ Immortal Grapple's, or they'll lose
/every/ combat they enter, going to Torpor, regardless of
whichever Clan they face ...
--
"Live Life with Heart."
Alan Kwan kw...@cs.cornell.edu
dle...@larry.cc.emory.edu (David Leader) writes
>BTW, I'm not responding to anything which is already based on the rules
;'>
You'd be surprised how many commensensical rulings here go against the DTR
>: o. Reaction cards can be played by Minions controlled by a Methuselah
>: other than the Methuselah controlling the acting Minion, even on
>: your own turn.
>: [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT]
>I've told you time and time again, this rule does NOT work because of
>the vote cards which go along... the ones where you cash 2 or 4
>votes are made SPECIFICALLY for the anti of this rule.
Are you aware that, at present, this only makes difference when the
Madness Network is in play?
>Also, you have
>just made it possible for me to WWeF another vampire's vampires (and
>if you really want, I can list several possibilites of times you want to
>do this).
No, you can never use another's minion to play a minion card, and this
rule does nothing to change that
Charming Lobby:
>: use as an action to call a vote at +1 stealth. If successful, a
vote is
>: called to determine whether the next vote will pass. A successful
vote
>: means the next vote called will pass automatically.
>: [CSA] [SHWT]
>Ummm... the whole point of Charming Lobby is to make sure the next vote>is passed if this one does. What's the point of the second vote? If>you actually have the pull to pass the next vote regardless, it'll pass
>anyway... if you don't, charming lobby becomes useless
Hardly. Remember the + vote cards you just mentioned?
If I've got a vote I want to get through, and you've got +vote reactions -
I'm in trouble.
UNLESS - I play CL. If you let the CL through, I get the vote. Use your
reactions - then I call the real vote, and your reactions are gone.
Other uses - Democritus can use a Bewitching Oration to give Badger a
Princedom.
+2 votes at superior aren't chicken feed, either.
If you think my interpretation is strict, you should see Wizard's
>: another Methuselah is considered undirected. The presence or
absence
>: of the (D) symbol has no effect on determination of legal targets.
>: [CSA] [LSJ] [JHJ] [SHWT]
>Actually, it does... cross table bleedings are a GOOD thing to be able to
>do..... I like directing actions against others (it keeps them from
calling
>votes which I can't block against me... kinda a "Revenge thing" (you
screw
>me I'll screw you)).
Sigh. We've been over this. If you don't like it, put yourself down in
opposition.
>: o. No more than one of any particular action modifier may be played or
>: used during any particular action, even if the acting minion
changes.
>: This does not apply to minions that are not the acting minion when
they
>: play the card.
>: [CSA]
>I can think of MANY reasons why you need to action modify more than once
;'>
I'm not quite sure of the point of your comment. MoTF can be used for
some horrible things without this rule.
>: o. Strike: Combat Ends resolves during normal strike resolution (still
>: cancelling first strikes). If the opposing strike is also: End
Combat,
>: then both have their usual effect.
>: [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT]>I disagree entirly..... non-combat decks NEED ways to avoid combat... if
>you play with 4 card limit, this isn't even an issue (but since most
>won't it is :'>).... even if you don't, they put a LOT of cards in so
>they can strike: combat ends to risk huge amounts of damage... with your
>ruling, I strike combat ends, john brujah counterstrikes, and then uses
>something for a few additional strikes and kills me and I can't do
anything.
AHAH! 4-card! That's why you don't understand Charming Lobby. With only 4
Bewitching Orations, Negotiated Vote (passing votes by methods other than
having a majority of princes) become essentially impossible.
On this issue, combat ends during the first damage resolution. John
Brujah never gets an additional strike phase to use his Blur.
>: o. Only Methuselehs other than the acting Methuseleh may use additional
>: political action cards for votes.
>: [CSA]
>: -LSJ-
>Ummmmm.... NO! Those of us who call votes need to get them passed :'>...
>you're trying to kill political decks who want to get really odd evil
>votes going (1st tradition and such)
No, I'm trying to handle decks like:
Crypt - 12 2 point vampire
8 Effective Management
52 vote cards.
Also, this is what both rulebooks say.
A good vote deck can still get 1st tradition through - through judicious
use of Charming Lobby :-)
>: Blood Rage - requires (th) not (fo).
>: [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT]
>I thought about this... and decided against it. Theft of Vitae does
>everything this card does, at range, with the added bonus that you
>gain the blood. In every aspect, theft of vitae would be superior to
>the (th) version of this card... regardless of what the RPing game
>says
Theft can't send anybody to torpor, can't stop a blurred SMG, and can't
negate a strike AFTER it's been played.
>: Deflection - replace the superior version with "as above, plus the
reacting
>: vampire can pay 1 blood and not be tapped by Deflection"
>: [CSA]
>You're trying to make Deflection and Telapathic Misdirection the same
card?
No, just trying to tone down an overpowered card. Deflection still does
at normal what TM does at superior.
>: Earth Meld - costs 1 blood from the acting vampire.
>: [CSA]
>Why? It's not that powerful...
It's as powerful as the ability of a Gangrel to do non-combat actions -
substantial, in spite of their rep.
>Therefore,
>Majesty should be a little worse than Earth Meld (will still be used
>more by clans which aren't gangrel).
It still is. 1 blood more to untap.
>: Form of Mist - costs 1 blood from the vampire playing it.
>: [CSA]
>Why? It's only an extra stealth
With multiples, it's an unblockable action. See Earth Meld.
>: Freak Drive - costs 2 blood from the acting vampire.
>: [CSA]
>Why? All these changes of cost will get VERY confusing during game play.
Because a 1 blood Freak Drive allows the Jyhad equivalent of
Lotus-Channel-Fireball.
>: Majesty - costs 1 blood from the vampire playing it.
>: [CSA]
>See abve AGAIN... god, this CSA guy wants to make things really
complicated
And see above.
>: Misdirection - costs 2*X to tap X minions.
>: [CSA]
>See above AGAIN! (ARGH!) it's not that powerful
If so, why is it one of only 2 cards restricted by Wizards?
>If you change the cost of everything, might as well change the cost
>of nothing.
No. I'm changing the costs of a set of card (the untappers) which are all
extremely powerful. With these costs, the untap cards aren't head and
shoulders over everything else.
>: Obedience - costs 1 blood from the reacting vampire.
>: [CSA]
>Especially this card... this card SUCKS!
Cassandra + Celerity + 20 Obediences = Neither prey nor predator will ever
get another action through.
Add Eagle's sight and make it the whole board.
(Call this the "Bossandra" strategy :-)
This ability sucks?
>: Taste of Vitae - only one of these may be played per minion per round.
>: [LSJ] [CSA] [LX] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [JF]
>Ehhh.... this isn't THAT powerful a card.
Do you realize that Rush + ToV = infinite blood supply?
What DO you consider powerful? :-)
>: Wake with Evening's Freshness - costs 1 blood from the reacting
vampire.
>: [CSA]
>Once again, a card which just isn't that powerful being blown out of
>proportion
Given that Wakes sell for more than most uncommons, apparently many others
think it's extraordinarily powerful.
>: Zip Gun - is a Weapon, but not a Weapon: Gun. (It may not use
ammunition).
>: [CSA]
>Sure it can... one of the beauties of it :'>..... remember, you're
>not taking 1 damage per combat for nothing.
Zip + DBR = why would anybody be dim enough to play Protean Claws?
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
JRA...@utcvm.utc.edu writes:
>In article <3m3gi8$k...@redwood.cs.scarolina.edu>
>sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes:>>Concealed Weapon - does not require (ob).
>> [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [JF]>I don't particularly see the point to this one, particularly since it
>leaves (ob) with one fewer cards than all the other disciplines (considering
>the blood rage fix, natch.)
Hmm. If that's true, maybe disguised weapon was supposed to have a blood
cost?
>However, if you do make that change, you I strongly suggest adding a
>"Do not replace this card until the end of combat" to it, just like all
>other non-discipline combat cards.
Obviously. :)
--
Aaron Mandelbaum
David Leader (dle...@larry.cc.emory.edu) wrote:
: L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu) wrote:
: : o. Reaction cards can be played by Minions controlled by a Methuselah: : other than the Methuselah controlling the acting Minion, even on
: : your own turn.
: : [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT]
: I've told you time and time again, this rule does NOT work because of
: the vote cards which go along... the ones where you cash 2 or 4
: votes are made SPECIFICALLY for the anti of this rule.
Sorry, but you are giving only one oration, and it the Referendum-caller
has superior then he is even _more_ bewitching (4 votes). Nonetheless,
he is still only giving _one_ oration.
: : use as an action to call a vote at +1 stealth. If successful, a vote is: : called to determine whether the next vote will pass. A successful vote
: : means the next vote called will pass automatically.
: : [CSA] [SHWT]
: Ummm... the whole point of Charming Lobby is to make sure the next vote
: is passed if this one does. What's the point of the second vïte? If
: you actually have the pull to pass the next vote regardless, it'll pass
: anyway... if you don't, charming lobby becomes useless
I know why I voted for it - this is the way I first interpreted it. This
is an action card, which says, "Call a Vote." How can I do anything else
but exactly that?
: : o. Strike: Combat Ends resolves during normal strike resolution (still: : cancelling first strikes). If the opposing strike is also: End Combat,
: : then both have their usual effect.
: : [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT]
: I disagree entirly..... non-combat decks NEED ways to avoid combat... if
: you play with 4 card limit, this isn't even an issue (but since most
: won't it is :'>).... even if you don't, they put a LOT of cards in so
: they can strike: combat ends to risk huge amounts of damage... with your
: ruling, I strike combat ends, john brujah counterstrikes, and then uses
: something for a few additional strikes and kills me and I can't do anything.
The _first_ thing that resolves in any combat's strike resolution phase
is Strike:Combat Ends, then Dodge, then First Strike, then the rest.
Thus, if a S:CE card is played, there is _no_ chance to take damage. The
combat _ENDE_ at that point (hence the name of the card) before any
further effects are resolved.
The reasoning behind this house-rule is: currently, combat ends
_immediately_ upon the playing of a S:CE card. If it is played by the
acting minion, this does not even give the opponent a chance to cycle
through a card or play their own Majesty/Combat Untap card. Many people
feel this is not fair, and thus have lent approval to the rule.
: : o. Only Methuselehs other than the acting Methuseleh may use additional: : political action cards for votes.
: : [CSA]
: : -LSJ-
: Ummmmm.... NO! Those of us who call votes need to get them passed :'>...
: you're trying to kill political decks who want to get really odd evil
: votes going (1st tradition and such)
Given an absolutely literal reading of the rules, a case could be made
that this is what they say. There has been response from WotC, however,
that this isn't what they meant.
: : Blood Rage - requires (th) not (fo).: : [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT]
: I thought about this... and decided against it. Theft of Vitae does
: everything this card does, at range, with the added bonus that you
: gain the blood. In every aspect, theft of vitae would be superior to
: the (th) version of this card... regardless of what the RPing game
: says
This ruling fixes up the discrepancy in common discipliune cards between
Thau (one too few) and Fort (one too many). Really, a Fortitude card
that stops Fortitude cards? Makes no sense to me...
: : Chainsaw - begins each combat "off". Does 3 damage each strike if it: : began the round of combat "on". The minion holding it may use a Strike:
: : start chainsaw to turn the chainsaw "on". Strike: start chainsaw is
: : unaffected by Strike: dodge (or other non-attack strike).
: : [LSJ]: I have absolutly no idea what LSJ just said
Translation: You can't use the chainsaw on the first round. If you want
to use it on the second (or any later rounds) then you have forego one of
your strikes at some point in a prior round to 'turn the chainsaw on'.
This cannot be stopped by any combat effects like Dodge.
: : Haven Uncovered - does not prevent its victim from being attacked in: torpor. : [LSJ] [SHWT]
: No combat occurs in torpor.
This would allow diablerie in place of combat.
Shane Travis | Natives who beat drums to drive off evil spirits
sht...@duke.usask.ca | are objects of scorn to Americans who blow horns
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan | to break up traffic jams.
| -- Mary Ellen Kelly
sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes:
>Chainsaw - begins each combat "off". Does 3 damage each strike if it
> began the round of combat "on". The minion holding it may use a Strike:
> start chainsaw to turn the chainsaw "on". Strike: start chainsaw is
> unaffected by Strike: dodge (or other non-attack strike).
> [LSJ]
How about, chainsaw, melee weapon 3 damage, -1 stealth. If you always keep
it running, you don't have to start it, but... :)
--
Aaron Mandelbaum
Aaron Mandelbaum (ad...@po.cwru.edu) wrote:
: JRA...@utcvm.utc.edu writes:
: >sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes:: >>Concealed Weapon - does not require (ob).: >> [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [JF]: >I don't particularly see the point to this one, particularly since it: >leaves (ob) with one fewer cards than all the other disciplines (considering
: >the blood rage fix, natch.): Hmm. If that's true, maybe disguised weapon was supposed to have a blood
: cost?
It's not true. Obfuscate and Fortitude currently have one 'extra' card
each; Thaumaturgy currently has one 'less' card usable with this discipline.
The Blood Rage fix mends Fort and Thau. This fix mends Obfuscate.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Aaron Mandelbaum (ad...@po.cwru.edu) wrote:
: How about, chainsaw, melee weapon 3 damage, -1 stealth. If you always keep
: it running, you don't have to start it, but... :)
Interesting idea. Problem is that Brujah (who are probably the most
likely clan to want to use a Chainsaw if it is made a melee weapon) do
not usually _care_ if their actions are intercepted; they would be
perfectly happy to have their now-minus one-stealth-presence-bleed
intercepted if they could use an acrobatics to get out of the way of
whatever you were about to do and then pump up their hand damage (from
potence) and take off about 6 blood from the blocker...
This would likely hurt the Nosferatu most of all, as they are the only
clan with both potence and obfuscate, and I don't think many people want
to pick even further on the poor Nosferatu...
[ quoted text not captured ]
dle...@larry.cc.emory.edu (David Leader) writes:
>L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu) wrote:
>: Sorry to post this so often, but the changes warrant it, so:
>This is David's post... all opinions here are David's... the responses
>in here do not neccessarily involve those of others :'>
>BTW, I'm not responding to anything which is already based on the rules ;'>
>: o. Reaction cards can be played by Minions controlled by a Methuselah
>: other than the Methuselah controlling the acting Minion, even on
>: your own turn.
>: [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT]
>I've told you time and time again, this rule does NOT work because of
>the vote cards which go along... the ones where you cash 2 or 4
>votes are made SPECIFICALLY for the anti of this rule. Also, you have
>just made it possible for me to WWeF another vampire's vampires (and
>if you really want, I can list several possibilites of times you want to
>do this).
Hello? Is this thing on?
The rule I have in no way affects the reality you live in (if i'm even
reaching that planet ;-)
Dread Gaze a vote you call? Not by the rule above.
Similarily with Surpirse Influence (wouldn't be a surprise, now would it :-)
Wake another Methusealh's vampire? certainly not.
(and I definately do NOT need a list of when you would want to cheat, thanks)
ad...@po.cwru.edu (Aaron Mandelbaum) writes:
>JRA...@utcvm.utc.edu writes:>>In article <3m3gi8$k...@redwood.cs.scarolina.edu>>>sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes:>>>Concealed Weapon - does not require (ob).
>>> [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [JF]>>I don't particularly see the point to this one, particularly since it
>>leaves (ob) with one fewer cards than all the other disciplines (considering
>>the blood rage fix, natch.)>Hmm. If that's true, maybe disguised weapon was supposed to have a blood
>cost?>>However, if you do make that change, you I strongly suggest adding a>>"Do not replace this card until the end of combat" to it, just like all
>>other non-discipline combat cards.>Obviously. :)
Open Grate is not DNRUAC. Neither is Dead-End Alley. Neither is Taste of
Vitae. Neither is Trap.
And neither is Concealed Weapon. :-)