Updated DC Rules: Effective in early February

Duelists' Convocation Official Vampire: The Eternal Struggle Tournament Rules Jan. 9 1995 A. Deck Construction 1. Vampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament decks may be built using cards from the Jyhad, Vampire: The Eternal Struggle and Dark Sovereigns card sets. Cards from new releases may not be inlcluded in sanctioned tournament play until thirty (30) days following the retail release date. You may place up to four of the same card (by card title) in your library. If you use cards from more than one set, read the rules on marked decks (Section 5). OPTIONAL RULE: Prior to the beginning of a sanctioned tournament, the Judge may declare that players who build decks from cards from both Jyhad and Vampire: The Eternal Struggle sets should ensure that between forty and sixty percent of their library should be from the Jyhad set. The tournament coordinator must announce and advertise use of this rule prior to the start of the tournament. 2. The crypt must contain a minimum of 12 (twelve) vampire cards. The crypt can be made up of vampires from the Jyhad or Vampire: The Eternal Struggle card sets, but not both. There is no maximum on the number of vampires that can be in your crypt. The library can contain a minimum of 60 (sixty) cards and maximum of 90 (ninety) cards total. 3. The Restricted List: No more than 6 (six) of each of the cards on the Restricted List is allowed in aVampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament deck. If more than 6 (six) of any individual card from the Restricted List is found in a player's deck, that will be interpreted by the Judge as a Declaration of Forfeiture. The Restricted List may be modified by the Director of the Duelists' Convocation as necessary. The Restricted List is as follows: Vampire: The Eternal Struggle Restricted List * Ancilla Empowerment * Conservitive Agitation * Domain Challenge * Earth Meld * Fifth Tradition: Hospitality * Form of Mist * Freak Drive * Kine Resources Contested * Majesty * Parity Shift * Sabbat Threat 4. The Banned List: The following cards are banned from tournament play: * Cunctator Motion * High Stakes * Rowan Ring * Stake * Playing For Keeps (Dark Sovereigns) (The Wooden Stake card from Vampire: The Eternal Struggle is permissible.) Some cards on the Banned List are not allowed because they clearly state that they are only usable if playing for ante. Wagering an ante is not required in a Vampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament (see General Floor Rules, rule #C2). Any future cards that make the same statement will subsequently be banned. This list may be modified by the Director of the Duelists' Convocation as necessary. 5. Marked Decks If a contestant, referee, or Judge has reason to believe another contestant has marked his or her deck, the referee or Judge may inspect the deck. If any of the deck stacking restrictions described below are breached, this is considered a Declaration of Forfeiture, and the contestant will be removed from the tournament. * All library cards from the Jyhad or Vampire: The Eternal Struggle card sets must be of sufficiently mixed card types (e.g., All the Jyhad library cards in your deck cannot consist of master cards and Dominate cards. Instead, your master and Dominate cards must appear with both Jyhad backs and Vampire: The Eternal Struggle backs or your Jyhad cards must include at least three different card types). * All your crypt cards must either have backs that read Jyhad or backs that read Vampire: The Eternal Struggle. They cannot have both. B. Adjudication and Playing Areas 1. Vampire: The Eternal Struggle tournaments will be presided over by a Judge, who may be assisted by as many Assistant Referees as necessary. NEITHER THE JUDGE NOR THE ASSISTANT REFEREES MAY PLAY IN A TOURNAMENT THAT HE OR SHE IS ADJUDICATING. A Judge may be required to interpret rules, interpret a Declaration of Forfeiture (see Closing, rule #G2 ), or make any other adjudication as necessary during the tournament. The Judge is also responsible for maintaining the tournament records. Assistant Referees will aid by answering rules questions on the floor, assisting with matching players for a new round, and making themselves available to the Judge for any other assistance they may require. In necessary cases, the Judge may overrule any decision made by an Assistant Referee. The decision of the Judge is always final. 2. A "table" is defined as a playing area where four or five players are competing in a game of Vampire: The Eternal Struggle in a Vampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament. 3. A Vampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament must have a minimum of 12 (twelve) players, and a minimum of 3 (three) tables per round (excluding finals). Each table must have a minimum of 4 (four) players at the start of the game. 4. An index card (or reasonable facsimile) will be prepared for each player in the tournament with that player's name and other tournament information. Cards will be shuffled and grouped randomly before tables are assigned in each round of the tournament (excluding finals). Alternatively, tournaments may use a computerized system for generating random groupings for each round, provided that the Judge can keep accurate records of each player's points throughout the tournament. 5. For each round, players will be randomly assigned in groups of five. In the likely event that the number of players is not evenly divisible by five, players should be assigned in groups of four and five; most groups should consist of five players. 6. Each table has five positions (numbered one through five) arranged clockwise around the table. The first player assigned to a table occupies position one, the second player occupies position two, and so on. When play begins for the round, the player in position one plays first (with one transfer allowed), followed by the player in position two (with two transfers allowed), and so forth. At tables with only four players, simply ignore the empty position for turn rotation. C. General Floor Rules 1. Players must use the same deck they have at the beginning of the tournament throughout the tournament. Changing or altering a tournament deck during the tournament may be interpreted by the Judge as a Declaration of Forfeiture. 2. Players are not required to wager ante during the tournament. Players may play for real ante, provided that all participants at the table give their consent, though this agreement does not allow the inclusion of banned ante cards in a tournament deck. Ante cards won in a tournament must be kept separate from the tournament deck and may not be used in the tournament in any capacity. If the loss of ante cards from a player's deck reduces the deck below 60 (sixty) cards, the player no longer has a legal tournament deck and will be removed from the tournament. 3. The use of plastic card sleeves or other protective devices on any player's cards will only be allowed if all players at the table agree to allow them in the round. If any player(s) at the table do not wish card sleeves to be used in the round for any reason, all sleeves must be removed from all decks at that table for the duration of the round. 4. The use of "proxy" cards in the tournament deck is not allowed. A proxy card is one that has been placed into the deck to represent another card the player doesn't want to play with for one reason or another; i.e. using a card with the words "Aaron's Feeding Razor" written on it because the player doesn't want to play with his actual Aaron's Feeding Razor. 5. Players must keep the cards in their hand above the level of the playing surface at all times. If a player is in violation, the Judge may issue a warning to the player or interpret the violation as a Declaration of Forfeiture (at the Judge's discretion). 6. Players may not have any outside assistance (i.e., coaching) during a match. If a player is in violation, the Judge may issue a warning to the player or interpret the violation as a Declaration of Forfeiture (at the Judge's discretion). 7. Unsportsmanlike conduct will not be tolerated at a tournament. Players, Judges, and Assistant Referees will conduct themselves in a polite, respectable, and sportsmanlike manner. Any player who is excessively belligerent, argumentative, hostile, or unsportsmanlike may receive a warning or have this behavior interpreted as a Declaration of Forfeiture (at the Judge's discretion). 8. Players must take their turns in a timely fashion. While taking time to think through a situation is acceptable, stalling for time is not. If the Judge feels that a player is stalling to take advantage of a time limit, the Judge may issue a warning or interpret the stalling as a Declaration of Forfeiture (at the Judge's discretion). D. Scoring 1. One player at each table will be appointed as that table's scorekeeper by a tournament official. At the conclusion of each round, a tournament official will collect the scores for that table from the scorekeeper and register the standings with the Judge. 2. There are three different types of points used in a Vampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament. They are listed here in descending order of importance. Victory points are awarded when a player's prey is ousted and when a player survives a round. Tournament points are awarded based on a player's table ranking at the end of a round. Blood points are awarded based on the amount of blood a player controls at the end of a round. Victory points are the primary indicator, with tournament points and blood points used as the first-degree and second-degree tie-breakers. 3. A player receives 1 (one) victory point each time he or she ousts his or her prey during the game. A player receives an additional half victory point if he or she has not been ousted by the end of the round, unless one player is the last one surviving at the table, in which case, that player gets a full victory point (as outlined in the Vampire: The Eternal Struggle rules). Players are then ranked at their table from First to Fifth (i.e., the player with the most victory points places First). 4. Tournament points are awarded each round as follows: First = 60 pts., Second = 48 pts., Third = 36 pts., Fourth = 24 pts., Fifth = 12 pts., provided that table had five players at the beginning of the round. If the table had four players, they are ranked as First, Second, Fourth, and Fifth -the third place slot is taken by the "table bye" (an empty position). If more than one player is tied for a certain table ranking, average the tournament points contended (see Scoring Examples below). Scoring Examples: a. Example 1: Five players are at the table. Players A and B each ousted one prey and survived the round. Players C and D were the unfortunates ousted by A and B, and they did not oust any prey. Player E ousted no one, but survived the round. Players A and B each receive one- and-one-half victory points (one oust plus survival each), player E receives one-half (for surviving), and players C and D receive no victory points. Players A and B tie for First (which really means First and Second), so they each receive 54 Tournament points ([60+48] / 2 = 54). Player E is clearly Third, and receives 36 Tournament points. Players C and D tie for Fourth (Fourth and Fifth), and each receive 18 tournament points ([24+12] / 2 = 18). b. Example 2: Four players are at the table. Player A ousts one prey and survives the round. Neither player B nor C ousted prey, but both survived. Player D was player A's victim. Player A receives one- and-one-half victory points, players B and C each get one-half of a point, and player D gets no points. Player A is clearly First, receiving 60 tournament points. Players B and C tie for Second (which is really Second and Fourth -remember that Third goes to the "table bye") and each receives 36 tournament points ([48+24 / 2 = 36]), and player D is in Fifth with 12 tournament points. 5. Additionally, at the end of the round, each player must count the number of blood points he or she has left: each player adds all of the blood left in his or her blood pool to the amount of blood on all of the active vampires he or she controls. Players report this number to the scorekeeper, who verifies that the count is accurate. In some cases, blood points may be used as a second-degree tie-breaker, though this may be rare. E. Rounds 1. Each round of the tournament must have a time limit declared by the Judge, with a minimum time limit of 2 (two) hours. The tournament coordinator must announce and advertise this time limit prior to the tournament. During the first twenty minutes, officials record any scoring from the previous round and reassign players to new matches; this is followed by a playing period of one hour and forty minutes. All players begin play at the same time. If all of the twenty minute set-up time isn't used, the remainder of the time may be added to the playing period. At the one hour and fifty-five minute mark, the Judge should issue a warning that only five minutes of playing time remain in the round. 2. All play from a round will cease immediately when the Judge announces that the round is over. Players in mid-turn will be permitted to complete that turn before scores are calculated, up to a maximum time of one minute. "A player in mid-turn" is defined as a someone who has finished untapping all of his or her cards in play that could be untapped at that time during his or her turn. 3. Each tournament must consist of a number of rounds determined by the Judge, with a minimum of 3 (three) rounds. The five players with the highest total victory points from all three rounds advance to the final round. In a tie, the player with more tournament points from prior rounds advances to the final (first degree tie-breaker). If players are still tied, the player with the largest total blood pool from prior rounds advances (second degree tie-breaker). Finalists will be rated First through Fifth by victory points. Ties are resolved as above. F. Finals 1. Table positions are not assigned in the final round. Instead, the first finalist has his or her choice of position, then the second finalist, and so on. Play for the final round commences normally. 2. At the conclusion of the final round, the player with the most victory points from the final round alone is the winner of the tournament, with other players ranked accordingly by victory points. In case of ties, blood points from the final round alone are used as the tie-breaker. G. Closing 1. Failure to adhere to the above rules, or any other rules specific to a particular tournament, may be interpreted by the Judge as a Declaration of Forfeiture. Only the Judge may make an interpretation of a Declaration of Forfeiture. This is a more pleasant way of stating that if a player breaks the rules, the Judge will remove that player from the tournament. 2. Rules note: The Director of the Duelists' Convocation reserves the exclusive right to add, delete, alter, transmute, switch, revise in second edition, seduce, blood bond, Dominate, Obfuscate, vote in or out with any Primogen, Prince, or Justicar that ever has been or ever will be printed, or in any other way change these or any other official Duelists' Convocation rules, in whole or in part, with or without notice, at any time that it is deemed necessary or desirable. This right is non-negotiable.

tra...@duke.usask.ca (Shane Travis) wrote: >: Duelists' Convocation Official >: Vampire: The Eternal Struggle >: Tournament Rules Jan. 9 1995 > >: You may place up to four of the same card (by card title) in your library. > >Sigh. DC goes for blanket card limits... or does it? > >: 3. The Restricted List: >: No more than 6 (six) of each of the cards on the Restricted List is >: allowed in aVampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament deck. If more than >: 6 (six) of any individual card from the Restricted List is found in a >: player's deck, that will be interpreted by the Judge as a Declaration of >: Forfeiture. > >Huh? I can have no more than 4 of any individual card, except for the >Rstricted List of Really Bad and Unfairly Powerful Cards, of which I can >have 6 each? > >Something does not make sense here... I was wondering if anybody was going to pick up on that. What do you think, they really meant the 6 card Restricted limit, and forgot to take the 4CL clause out when they edited magic's deck construction rules? Looks that way to me. "I dedicate this book to the followers of * David Bonner Christ and his teachings, and in particular * Box 1465 to a true Christian - Jimmy Hoffa - because * 140 Bay State Rd. he hired ex-convicts, as, I assume, Christ * Boston, MA 02215 would have." -Lenny Bruce * dbo...@bu.edu

Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote: : Duelists' Convocation Official : Vampire: The Eternal Struggle : Tournament Rules Jan. 9 1995 : You may place up to four of the same card (by card title) in your library. Sigh. DC goes for blanket card limits... or does it? : 3. The Restricted List: : No more than 6 (six) of each of the cards on the Restricted List is : allowed in aVampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament deck. If more than : 6 (six) of any individual card from the Restricted List is found in a : player's deck, that will be interpreted by the Judge as a Declaration of : Forfeiture. <actual list deleted> Huh? I can have no more than 4 of any individual card, except for the Rstricted List of Really Bad and Unfairly Powerful Cards, of which I can have 6 each? Something does not make sense here... Shane H.W. Travis | Galbraith's Law of Human Nature: Faced with the tra...@duke.usask.ca | choice between changing one's mind and proving Saskatoon, Saskatchewan | that there is no need to do so, almost everybody | gets busy on the proof.

aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) wrote: >A. Deck Construction > >1. Vampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament decks may be built using >cards from the Jyhad, Vampire: The Eternal Struggle and Dark Sovereigns >card sets. Cards from new releases may not be inlcluded in sanctioned >tournament play until thirty (30) days following the retail release date. >You may place up to four of the same card (by card title) in your library. ^^^^^^^^^^ >If you use cards from more than one set, read the rules on marked decks >(Section 5). Peace Thomas, WHAT! You can't be serious. Someone, please, tell me what the DC is smoking/popping/injecting and how I can legally get some. >2. The crypt must contain a minimum of 12 (twelve) vampire cards. The >crypt can be made up of vampires from the Jyhad or Vampire: The Eternal >Struggle card sets, but not both. There is no maximum on the number of There goes "completely compatible". >vampires that can be in your crypt. The library can contain a minimum of >60 (sixty) cards and maximum of 90 (ninety) cards total. ^^^^ At least they fixed this. >3. The Restricted List: > >No more than 6 (six) of each of the cards on the Restricted List is ^^^ >allowed in aVampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament deck. If more than >6 (six) of any individual card from the Restricted List is found in a >player's deck, that will be interpreted by the Judge as a Declaration of >Forfeiture. The Restricted List may be modified by the Director of the >Duelists' Convocation as necessary. The Restricted List is as follows: So, I can have more cards from the RL than I can non-restricted cards?!? This has got to be a serious typo. Nil carborundum illigitimi, James R. McClure Jr. The OS/2 Apostle <insert disclaimer here>

> > Don't they mean 6 different cards from the restricted list? > Like I could have 2 Freak Drives, 2 Parity Shifts and 2 Kine Resources > Contested in my deck, but then I couldn't include 2 Conservative > Agitations also, because that would bring it to 8 cards from the > restricted list. > > >Shane H.W. Travis > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ They might, but the wording was explicit in saying no more of 6 individual. I take that as 6 each. REF Considering a 80 card deck (4 players at a table) I think 6 is a fair limit. More then that in my decks is for the theme. REF

Time to tear the new one apart... <sigh> On 11 Jan 1996, Thomas R Wylie wrote: > Duelists' Convocation Official Vampire: The Eternal Struggle > Tournament Rules Jan. 9 1995 > A. Deck Construction > 1. Vampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament decks may be built using > cards from the Jyhad, Vampire: The Eternal Struggle and Dark Sovereigns > card sets. Cards from new releases may not be inlcluded in sanctioned > tournament play until thirty (30) days following the retail release date. > You may place up to four of the same card (by card title) in your library. > If you use cards from more than one set, read the rules on marked decks > (Section 5). 4? Hmm..., what would Richard Garfeild say. :) This is sure to win cheers in the CL crew! :) Read below. > OPTIONAL RULE: Prior to the beginning of a sanctioned tournament, the > Judge may declare that players who build decks from cards from both Jyhad > and Vampire: The Eternal Struggle sets should ensure that between forty > and sixty percent of their library should be from the Jyhad set. The > tournament coordinator must announce and advertise use of this rule prior > to the start of the tournament. (You've heard this paragraph before I bet. Ignore it if you want ;) Guess every malk deck I play is going to know that I don't have Archon Investigation. I don't want to have to buy more cards just so I can play in a tourney. > 2. The crypt must contain a minimum of 12 (twelve) vampire cards. The > crypt can be made up of vampires from the Jyhad or Vampire: The Eternal > Struggle card sets, but not both. There is no maximum on the number of > vampires that can be in your crypt. The library can contain a minimum of > 60 (sixty) cards and maximum of 90 (ninety) cards total. Why not 40+10*players. This almost give limited sideboard ability. Oh well, I guess I can't play my <insert cool deck here>. I'd have to take out too many vamps. > 3. The Restricted List: > No more than 6 (six) of each of the cards on the Restricted List is > allowed in aVampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament deck. If more than > 6 (six) of any individual card from the Restricted List is found in a > player's deck, that will be interpreted by the Judge as a Declaration of > Forfeiture. The Restricted List may be modified by the Director of the > Duelists' Convocation as necessary. The Restricted List is as follows: 6? :) What happened to four? Who wrote this anywho? :) > Vampire: The Eternal Struggle Restricted List > * Ancilla Empowerment > * Conservitive Agitation > * Domain Challenge > * Earth Meld > * Fifth Tradition: Hospitality > * Form of Mist > * Freak Drive > * Kine Resources Contested > * Majesty > * Parity Shift > * Sabbat Threat Still vote neutering... <Grunt> This is bad. > 4. The Banned List: The following cards are banned from tournament > play: > * Cunctator Motion > * High Stakes > * Rowan Ring > * Stake > * Playing For Keeps (Dark Sovereigns) What about Succubus Club? I guess me and my friends will each throw one in our decks, thus guaranteeing one of us will win should we ever be at the same table. Stake and Rowan Ring should be included. Though paralyze is removed, it is simple to make a explanation card for future booster packs/starters, as was done in Legends for Magic. > (The Wooden Stake card from Vampire: The Eternal Struggle is permissible.) > Some cards on the Banned List are not allowed because they clearly state > that they are only usable if playing for ante. Wagering an ante is not > required in a Vampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament (see General Floor > Rules, rule #C2). Any future cards that make the same statement will > subsequently be banned. This list may be modified by the Director of the > Duelists' Convocation as necessary. > 5. Marked Decks [Snip. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Spare me.] [Yet more snippage...] "I can send and receive e-mail even over the Internet"-aol commercial @#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$ # Adrian Sullivan sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu Spoutingly yours 8^) # $ GAT/CS/O/WS R+++* tv&--- b++(+++)&+ t X++&-- 5->? e+*>++++ PS+&-+ @ # PE&++&- C(+++)$ UX+>+++$ N++(+) K+>++++ w---$>? M++$ r(+) y*+? 3.1# @#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$

In article <4d47fh$c...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes: |> |> Duelists' Convocation Official |> Vampire: The Eternal Struggle |> Tournament Rules Jan. 9 1995 |> |> A. Deck Construction |> |> 1. Vampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament decks may be built using |> cards from the Jyhad, Vampire: The Eternal Struggle and Dark Sovereigns |> card sets. Cards from new releases may not be inlcluded in sanctioned |> tournament play until thirty (30) days following the retail release date. |> You may place up to four of the same card (by card title) in your library. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You guys weren't trying to sneak this little bit by everyone by hiding it in the middle of a paragraph, were you? So, other than the Mlak. S&B deck, what else is viable under a 4 card limit? |> If you use cards from more than one set, read the rules on marked decks |> (Section 5). |> |> |> Vampire: The Eternal Struggle Restricted List |> |> * Ancilla Empowerment |> * Conservitive Agitation |> * Domain Challenge |> * Earth Meld |> * Fifth Tradition: Hospitality |> * Form of Mist |> * Freak Drive |> * Kine Resources Contested |> * Majesty |> * Parity Shift |> * Sabbat Threat |> Let's see, that's all the 'selfish votes', untap cards, and the two broken cards. Does this mean that all future selfish votes and untap cards will be restricted as well? |> |> 4. The Banned List: The following cards are banned from tournament |> play: |> |> * Cunctator Motion |> * High Stakes |> * Rowan Ring |> * Stake |> * Playing For Keeps (Dark Sovereigns) Does this mean that the Monacle of Clarity is "back", or was it just left off the list by accident? |> |> (The Wooden Stake card from Vampire: The Eternal Struggle is permissible.) |> |> | Just some random comments... Gary

tra...@duke.usask.ca (Shane Travis) wrote: >Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote: >: Duelists' Convocation Official >: Vampire: The Eternal Struggle >: Tournament Rules Jan. 9 1995 >: You may place up to four of the same card (by card title) in your library. >Sigh. DC goes for blanket card limits... or does it? >: 3. The Restricted List: >: No more than 6 (six) of each of the cards on the Restricted List is >: allowed in aVampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament deck. If more than >: 6 (six) of any individual card from the Restricted List is found in a >: player's deck, that will be interpreted by the Judge as a Declaration of >: Forfeiture. ><actual list deleted> >Huh? I can have no more than 4 of any individual card, except for the >Rstricted List of Really Bad and Unfairly Powerful Cards, of which I can >have 6 each? >Something does not make sense here... Don't they mean 6 different cards from the restricted list? Like I could have 2 Freak Drives, 2 Parity Shifts and 2 Kine Resources Contested in my deck, but then I couldn't include 2 Conservative Agitations also, because that would bring it to 8 cards from the restricted list. >Shane H.W. Travis | Galbraith's Law of Human Nature: Faced with the >tra...@duke.usask.ca | choice between changing one's mind and proving >Saskatoon, Saskatchewan | that there is no need to do so, almost everybody > | gets busy on the proof. | http://www.cs.utwente.nl/~baalman | "Talk to yourself mailto:j.p.a....@student.utwente.nl | Listen, because no one else will" Philippus Baalman | --- The God Machine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Tom: Maybe I am a bit dim, but it seems rather strange that the DC rules allow 4 cards of any particular title in your library, but only 6 of any particular card from the restricted list. If I do understand this correctly, I might suggest that this kind of ruling and/or lack of crosschecking is not the sort of thing which engenders confidence in the brainpower of the DC. Chick...@msn.com

In article <NEWTNews.8214807...@refplace.best.com>, refp...@best.com wrote: >> >> Don't they mean 6 different cards from the restricted list? >> Like I could have 2 Freak Drives, 2 Parity Shifts and 2 Kine Resources >> Contested in my deck, but then I couldn't include 2 Conservative >> Agitations also, because that would bring it to 8 cards from the >> restricted list. >> >> >Shane H.W. Travis An intelligent person would come to this conclusion. They are fallible when it comes to wording their intentions. Expect a clarification... >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >They might, but the wording was explicit in saying no more >of 6 individual. >I take that as 6 each. >REF >Considering a 80 card deck (4 players at a table) I think 6 >is a fair limit. More then that in my decks is for the theme. >REF +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ! Rick Mc Leod - Adventurer, would-be Attorney, and part-time Dark Lord ! ! PO Box 522 Ashburn VA 22011 USA email: r...@cais.com ! ! Mitakuye Oyasin. !

Wahoo! Another triumph from the WotC Rules boys (sarcasm alert)! Do us a favor, sell V:TES to someone who understands how to write rules for games (like Atlas, Ultimate Games, or even AEG or Daedalus) . . .

Philippus Baalman (j.p.a....@student.utwente.nl) wrote: : >Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote: : >: No more than 6 (six) of each of the cards on the Restricted List is ^^^^ : Don't they mean 6 different cards from the restricted list? : Like I could have 2 Freak Drives, 2 Parity Shifts and 2 Kine Resources : Contested in my deck, but then I couldn't include 2 Conservative : Agitations also, because that would bring it to 8 cards from the : restricted list. That is not the way the sentence reads, although you may be correct in that this is what they intended (Especially if they were serious about that 4CL thing...) [ quoted text not captured ]

On 11 Jan 1996 23:45:53 GMT, aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) wrote: > >Duelists' Convocation Official >Vampire: The Eternal Struggle >Tournament Rules Jan. 9 1995 > >A. Deck Construction > >1. Vampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament decks may be built using [snip] >You may place up to four of the same card (by card title) in your library. What?! Is this supposed to be here? Is Wizards officially backing a 4cl for the game they initially said didn't need such limits? I certainly hope this is a mistake...Did I miss something? Tom? >No more than 6 (six) of each of the cards on the Restricted List is >allowed in aVampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament deck. If more than >6 (six) of any individual card from the Restricted List is found in a >player's deck, that will be interpreted by the Judge as a Declaration of >Forfeiture. The Restricted List may be modified by the Director of the >Duelists' Convocation as necessary. The Restricted List is as follows: Hurrah! I'm very glad to see that this has been upped from the previous "2 per" that first came out. Thanks much, Tom for helping to get this changed! :) [rest of list snipped for space] -- Manor

The Corrupter <sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu> wrote: >Time to tear the new one apart... <sigh> > >On 11 Jan 1996, Thomas R Wylie wrote: [Much snipped] [Ooops. Identification of the Banned List snipped] >> * Cunctator Motion >> * High Stakes >> * Rowan Ring >> * Stake >> * Playing For Keeps (Dark Sovereigns) > >What about Succubus Club? I guess me and my friends will each throw one >in our decks, thus guaranteeing one of us will win should we ever be at >the same table. I have never seen a succubus club, or even heard of one. I just looked at Shane Travis' spoiler list, and the card text makes NO SENSE. Does the card grant you the power to say to another Mesuthelah " I'll give you 3 pool and a Burning Wrath for your Archon Investigation."? From your HAND? And then there is the phrase "none are enforced by the rules" (Sorry I haven't posted card text but cheesy shell and DOS vs UNIX makes it tough) Does this mean that, after saying the above, I can proceed to give the other person a Chainsaw? And they can give me a Movement of the Mind? It just seems too wierd. Tell me I have it all wrong please. And what makes winning inevitable with 2 at one table? > >[Snip. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Spare me.] >[Yet more snippage...] > grrrr... Some of us haven't gotten the original post yet. gnfnrf

> > I have never seen a succubus club, or even heard of one. I just looked at > Shane Travis' spoiler list, and the card text makes NO SENSE. Does the card > grant you the power to say to another Mesuthelah " I'll give you 3 pool and > a Burning Wrath for your Archon Investigation."? From your HAND? And then > there is the phrase "none are enforced by the rules" (Sorry I haven't posted > card text but cheesy shell and DOS vs UNIX makes it tough) Does this mean > that, after saying the above, I can proceed to give the other person a > Chainsaw? And they can give me a Movement of the Mind? It just seems too > wierd. Tell me I have it all wrong please. And what makes winning inevitable > with 2 at one table? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It would allow the players to cheat by ganging up. You may trade pool or cards. If you trade from your hand you must have an equal # of cards involved as no one may end the trade with less or more then they started. Trades are subject to honesty at the time but no enforcement on promises exists. That last is not from text but a ruling I heard about. REF

aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) wrote: >2. The crypt must contain a minimum of 12 (twelve) vampire cards. The >crypt can be made up of vampires from the Jyhad or Vampire: The Eternal ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Struggle card sets, but not both. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ So if I am reading this right, WotC is saying is that if you want to play in a tournament with your Jyhad cards and any V:TES expansions, your out of luck... unless you want to put out more $$$ for your crypt card backs to match. This is WRONG! We were promised that the Jyhad cards were not going to be made obsolete by the game being renamed. +---------------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | Theodore Davis (aka THuD) | Disclaimer: | | th...@pacifier.com | | | WSD Games - Cry Havoc | I am not a net-surfer, but I play one | | cryh...@orionsys.com | on my PC... | +---------------------------+-----------------------------------------+

Maybe they meant to flip flop that shit. 6 of any card 4 of any restricted cards? just a little batter -- ||||||| BRAD /\wa...@pioneer.nevada.edu |^_.^ _^|. o O (all I did was smoke) /vvvvvvvvvvvv \-----------------------C\[@]-[@]/)-------, ____ `^^^^^^^^^^^^ /========================| : U .:|=======" / /\ WARD \/ wa...@cs.unlv.edu `.(===):' ( ==/=*~) \---/ \/____/

Well, aside from the 4CL bit (which I suspect is just a typo left over from where they converted the Mt$ rules into VtES rules), this set of tourny rules is a far far sight better then the last. 1) The time limit per round is now 2 hours. This is a confortable time for a hand of Jyhad, while still being short enough that a tournament can get in 3 rounds plus a final in an 8 hour day of gaming. 2) The victory conditions were updated to make surviving worth something. Combined with the 2 hour limit, this means that people can play decks that explore other strategies than mere speed. 3) The horrible 2 card restricted list was upped to 6. While card limits are still a poor cousin to rules fixes on the broken cards, this is a nice compromise which allows people to use these restricted cards in a useful way, while stopping a few abusive deck designs based on those cards. All in all, I'd say that Tom managed to convey our problems with the last set of rules to the DC quite nicely, and a good compromise was reached. Alec -- Alec Habig, Indiana University High Energy Astrophysics aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu http://www.astro.indiana.edu/home/ahabig/ Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns.

The Corrupter <sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu> wrote: >> 2. The crypt must contain a minimum of 12 (twelve) vampire cards. The >> crypt can be made up of vampires from the Jyhad or Vampire: The Eternal >> Struggle card sets, but not both. There is no maximum on the number of >> vampires that can be in your crypt. The library can contain a minimum of >> 60 (sixty) cards and maximum of 90 (ninety) cards total. > >Why not 40+10*players. This almost give limited sideboard ability. Huh? if you're sitting at a table composed of the reccomended 5 players, that's 90 cards if you calculate 40+10*players with the same arithmatic as I do. You'll have 10 extra cards if you happen to sit at a 4 player table. But since whether the table is at 4 or 5 is random and beyond your control, just saying "90" means that you don't have to rework your deck on short notice. >Oh well, I guess I can't play my <insert cool deck here>. I'd have to >take out too many vamps. I don't understand this one at all. The "minimum of 12 vamps" is the same rule as the game out of the box. You can have as many vamps as floats your boat. [ quoted text not captured ]

Although Tom didn't post it on this thread, he has posted saying that the 4cl and Monocle things were both errors. His post: No, the VTES tournament rules shouldn't have a blanket 4-card limit. No, it didn't occur to me that I'd have to check to make sure they didn't add that back in. Also, Monocle of Clarity is still on the banned list. Apparently these are both just clerical errors. Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc. -CT -- Charles T. Schwope | Every man is a spark in the darkness. By the aka CT | time he is noticed, he is gone forever, a sch...@infrared.csc.ti.com | retinal afterimage that fades, and is obscured c-sc...@ti.com | by newer, brighter lights.

In article <4d6u85$e...@news.pacifier.com>, th...@pacifier.com (Theodore Davis) writes: >So if I am reading this right, WotC is saying is that if you want to play >in a tournament with your Jyhad cards and any V:TES expansions, your out >of luck... unless you want to put out more $$$ for your crypt card backs >to match. This is WRONG! We were promised that the Jyhad cards were not >going to be made obsolete by the game being renamed. Another triumph for the WotC Rules folks!

In <4d6u85$e...@news.pacifier.com>, th...@pacifier.com (Theodore Davis) writes: >aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) wrote: > >>2. The crypt must contain a minimum of 12 (twelve) vampire cards. The >>crypt can be made up of vampires from the Jyhad or Vampire: The Eternal > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>Struggle card sets, but not both. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >So if I am reading this right, WotC is saying is that if you want to play >in a tournament with your Jyhad cards and any V:TES expansions, your out >of luck... unless you want to put out more $$$ for your crypt card backs >to match. This is WRONG! We were promised that the Jyhad cards were not >going to be made obsolete by the game being renamed. Wait a minute. Let me get this straight. If I have a full set of Jyhad cards (NO V:TES cards) and I want to play a tournament ... I can't play with any DS vampires? Am I getting this right? That really sucks. I also remember the promise that we can combine Jyhad and V:TES cards. I DON'T remember anyone saying that this only applies to the library. Please, TOM, correct me if I wrong. Loy.

loy...@on.bell.ca writes: >In <4d6u85$e...@news.pacifier.com>, th...@pacifier.com (Theodore Davis) writes: >>aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) wrote: >> >>>2. The crypt must contain a minimum of 12 (twelve) vampire cards. The >>>crypt can be made up of vampires from the Jyhad or Vampire: The Eternal >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>>Struggle card sets, but not both. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >>So if I am reading this right, WotC is saying is that if you want to play >>in a tournament with your Jyhad cards and any V:TES expansions, your out >>of luck... unless you want to put out more $$$ for your crypt card backs >>to match. This is WRONG! We were promised that the Jyhad cards were not >>going to be made obsolete by the game being renamed. >Wait a minute. Let me get this straight. >If I have a full set of Jyhad cards (NO V:TES cards) and I want to play a >tournament ... I can't play with any DS vampires? Am I getting this right? >That really sucks. I also remember the promise that we can combine Jyhad and >V:TES cards. I DON'T remember anyone saying that this only applies to the >library. >Please, TOM, correct me if I wrong. No, you aren't wrong - the promise was made many times. Direct quote from the DCI: players will be able to use any combination of card backs during tournaments Apparently, tho, it was just meant to diffuse the growing opposition to the new release. By diffusing it early with empty promises, WotC saved face with some gullible players, only to hose them later when WotC finally admitted that they have no intention of allowing mixed decks unless you purchase a substantial quantity of VtES. They chant the mantra "But, you can always trade for the VtES vampire you need." But who's going to trade VtES for the abandoned Jyhad-backed cards? I can buy Jyhad cards for $1 per booster or VtES packs for $2.75 a booster - whose trading in that environment? --- Reference the promise: From: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad Subject: Press Release on Card Back Changes for V:TES Date: 2 May 1995 02:18:39 GMT Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz Message-ID: <3o44pv$h...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> "Changing the card backs doesn't affect how the game is played. Although you'll be able to see the back of the tail card in your opponent's hand and the top vampire in the crypt, you won't know what the cards are," says Matthew Burke, V:TES Project Coordinator. "Changing the card backs doesn't make Jyhad cards obsolete." The Duelists' Convocation will allow both Jyhad and V:TES cards in tournament play. Under Convocation rules, players will be able to use any combination of card backs during tournaments. The creator of the card game, Richard Garfield, agrees with using the two sets in tournaments. "I think the Duelists' Convocation rules allowing the use of both card backs goes a long way toward making the [Jyhad and V:TES] cards compatible," says Garfield. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | These opinions are mine and http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | are subject to card text. Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

The DC is still trying to fix vote pushing with card limits on specific votes. This isn't going to work. There's no substantial difference between 24 KRC and 6 KRC/6CA/6 Sabbat Threat/6 Parity Shift. The problem with vote pushing is not the vote being called but the other 6 luking in the hand to pass it, and it makes absolutely no difference what votes they are. The problem is the total number of political action cards in the deck. If the DC wants to fix votes pushing with deck construction rules, then the way to do it is to restrict the total number of vote cards, of any type or name, in the deck. In my experience, "healthy" (normal, counterable, interesting) vote decks like Prince Vote or Toreador carded vote or Brujah Bruise and Vote never have more than 1/3 vote cards. Weenie vote decks never have less than half and usually no less than 2/3. So there's a fairly wide gap there. Limiting the number of political action card in the deck to 40% will leave the normal vote decks fully functional but eliminate the push-only weenie vote tactic. Weenie voters would still have a chance via passing Praxis Siezures, but, with so many non-vote cards, they can't just burn through their decks. They'll need to do something with the rest of the cards, and that will slow them markedly.

In article <30f7533b...@news.wolsi.com>, Ma...@wolsi.com (D'Kit Manor) writes: {snip} > [snip] > >>You may place up to four of the same card (by card title) in your library. > > What?! Is this supposed to be here? Is Wizards officially > backing a 4cl for the game they initially said didn't need such > limits? I certainly hope this is a mistake...Did I miss something? > Tom? > >>No more than 6 (six) of each of the cards on the Restricted List is >>allowed in aVampire: The Eternal Struggle tournament deck. If more than >>6 (six) of any individual card from the Restricted List is found in a >>player's deck, that will be interpreted by the Judge as a Declaration of >>Forfeiture. The Restricted List may be modified by the Director of the >>Duelists' Convocation as necessary. The Restricted List is as follows: > > Hurrah! I'm very glad to see that this has been upped from > the previous "2 per" that first came out. Thanks much, Tom for > helping to get this changed! :) > > [rest of list snipped for space] > > -- Manor > > Wait a sec. NORMAL cards restricted to FOUR, and RESTRICTED cards restricted to _6_?!?!?!?!?!?! I don't quite see the logic here.

First of all, I apologize to everyone for posting this to the newsgroup. This message is for Chick Lewis (Chick...@msn.com). Chick, I cannot reach your mailbox for some reason. I get a message that your host isn't recognized. That is why I haven't responded. I would like to trade. I have the following cards you wanted: Jyhad: 3 Burst of Sunlight 2 Psychic Veils V:TES: Giants Blood How about those 6 cards for the following 6 of yours: 2 Fists of Death 1 Malkavian Madness Network 3 Golcondas Please let me know. And if there is some special trick to reaching you by e-mail, then let me know that as well. Thanks. -Elfholme -- ****************************************************************************** This bit of wisdom has been brought to you by: Mark Havener Lord of elfh...@netcom.com Wood Elf King (and Jyhad player extraordinaire!) ******************************************************************************

Dear djn31, no, Tom reposted that leaving the 4cl in the rules was a typo which he didn't think to check for. Latest postings of these rules have no blanket 4cl.

The local group had a little question about one of the new DS cards tonight. The card is Kindred Coercion (I think that's the name). It's a Dominate reaction card that lets a vampire cancel the votes of "X" vampires during a Political Action. My question: What exactly is meant by a vampire's "votes". Obviously, votes conferred by a title (Prince, Justicar) could be canceled, but what about votes from action modifier/reaction cards? What about votes received for burning other PA cards? Do these go to a vampire first, or do they go straight to the Methuselah? Would the original one vote for the PA being called count as a "vote" for the acting vampire (thus allowing it to be cancelled)? Also, the card does not cancel PAs, just individual votes, correct? So, if one player has a Prince that has voted, the reacting vampire could cancel the two votes that the Prince gets, but couldn't just cancel the "vote" (PA) itself, correct? We opted to let the reacting vampire cancel *all* the votes of X minions, including any votes received for action modifier/reaction cards, because it was a good compromise at the time, but we'd like to know what the real rules for this card are. [ quoted text not captured ]

>Also, the card does not cancel PAs, just individual votes, correct? So, >if one player has a Prince that has voted, the reacting vampire could >cancel the two votes that the Prince gets, but couldn't just cancel the >"vote" (PA) itself, correct? It doesn't affect PA's other than the original PA. Not only can you cancel their votes but you can reverse them for instant ousting when mixed with Elder Kindred Network.

In article <4dmb8v$l...@redwood.cs.sc.edu>, sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes: >Direct quote from the DCI: > > players will be able to use any combination of > card backs during tournaments > >Apparently, tho, it was just meant to diffuse the growing opposition >to the new release. By diffusing it early with empty promises, WotC >saved face with some gullible players, only to hose them later >when WotC finally admitted that they have no intention of allowing >mixed decks unless you purchase a substantial quantity of VtES. The more they do, they more they prove it: WotC is a gang of very, very lucky people who hired a genius and haven't stopped screwing up since. I'd say more, but I have to wash my hands . . . they're stained with the ink that has rubbed off my brand-new, only played once, non-compatible, back-changed V:TES cards. A**holes.

aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes: >>Would the original one vote for the PA being called count as >>a "vote" for the acting vampire (thus allowing it to be cancelled)? >I can't find a definite reference on this either way. While it might seem >that the vampire is casting the vote, I think it should actually be the >Methuselah. For example, I don't think that if a Tremere called the vote, >that Astrid Thomas should control which way that built-in 1 vote goes. >But I'll have to see what the others think. I just happen to a reference handy, Tom. :-) ----- From: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad Subject: DESIGN TEAM RULINGS: 5/9/95 Date: 9 May 1995 07:17:48 GMT Message-ID: <3on4us$l...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> 8) If a vampire uses a political action card such as Disputed Location to call a vote, the vote provided by that card is considered to be cast by the player rather than by the vampire. So vote provided by the political action card cannot be canceled by Pulled Strings, for example. ----- [ quoted text not captured ]

Mark Havener <elfh...@netcom.com> wrote: >The local group had a little question about one of the new DS cards >tonight. The card is Kindred Coercion (I think that's the name). It's a >Dominate reaction card that lets a vampire cancel the votes of "X" >vampires during a Political Action. My question: What exactly is meant >by a vampire's "votes". Obviously, votes conferred by a title (Prince, >Justicar) could be canceled, but what about votes from action >modifier/reaction cards?... It cancels all votes produced by a vampire, whether by its title, by action modifiers and reactions, or what have you. >What about votes received for burning other PA >cards? Do these go to a vampire first, or do they go straight to the >Methuselah?.. Votes from burning political cards are cast by the Methuselah, so cannot be affected by Kindred Coercion. >Would the original one vote for the PA being called count as >a "vote" for the acting vampire (thus allowing it to be cancelled)? I can't find a definite reference on this either way. While it might seem that the vampire is casting the vote, I think it should actually be the Methuselah. For example, I don't think that if a Tremere called the vote, that Astrid Thomas should control which way that built-in 1 vote goes. But I'll have to see what the others think. >Also, the card does not cancel PAs, just individual votes, correct? So, >if one player has a Prince that has voted, the reacting vampire could >cancel the two votes that the Prince gets, but couldn't just cancel the >"vote" (PA) itself, correct? Right. >We opted to let the reacting vampire cancel *all* the votes of X minions, >including any votes received for action modifier/reaction cards, because >it was a good compromise at the time, but we'd like to know what the real >rules for this card are. You are correct sir. [ quoted text not captured ]