Does the cost for the superior version count as a cost of the card? If
so, then why is Eldritch Glimmer different? If not, why not? You pay
the cost as you play it, and just because the cost isn't printed as a
white blood drop it shouldn't mean it has no cost. Because the inferior
version is free so it wasn't possible to do that.
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Before you buy.
In article <8uauc6$vo0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote:
> Does the cost for the superior version count as a cost of the card
No
> You pay the cost as you play it,
No, you pay the cost when you make the damage Aggrevated. So you could
play the card then decide later whether or not to burn a blood.
> Because the inferior version is free so it wasn't possible to do that.
Because they are both free to play.
Joe C.
-
V:EKN Prince of Columbia, SC
Editor: Tzimisce Clan Newsletter
www.warghoul.com
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8uauc6$vo0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote:
> Does the cost for the superior version count as a cost of the card? If
No. The cost of the card is the number in the blood/pool drop on
the left.
> so, then why is Eldritch Glimmer different? If not, why not? You pay
> the cost as you play it, and just because the cost isn't printed as a
> white blood drop it shouldn't mean it has no cost. Because the
> inferior version is free so it wasn't possible to do that.
The effect has a cost. The card does not.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/[ quoted text not captured ]
On Wed, 08 Nov 2000 07:12:08 GMT, cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se>
wrote:
>Does the cost for the superior version count as a cost of the card? If
>so, then why is Eldritch Glimmer different? If not, why not? You pay
>the cost as you play it, and just because the cost isn't printed as a
>white blood drop it shouldn't mean it has no cost. Because the inferior
>version is free so it wasn't possible to do that.
To answer the question you're *really* asking here:
It was written that way specifically to prevent the Path of
Metamorphosis from ever giving the Tzimisce free aggravated hand
damage. Even with a Path out right now, you must burn a blood for the
Marauder. (or burn a blood for Body Arsenal.)
-- Derek
Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
- C. Darwin, 1871
> To answer the question you're *really* asking here:
> It was written that way specifically to prevent the Path of
> Metamorphosis from ever giving the Tzimisce free aggravated hand
> damage. Even with a Path out right now, you must burn a blood for the
> Marauder. (or burn a blood for Body Arsenal.)
If free agg hand damage is an issue, why was it given to the !Gangrel
with "Path of the Feral Heart"? And if it's not just the agg HD, why
is it an issue with the Tzminsce in particular? If it is the Tzimsce, why
favor one clan over another?
Sorrow
---
no hate no wars no ignorance no politics no pain no force
no weapons no oppression no sorrow no chemicals no dust
no leaders no violence no dust no leaders no leaders
now it's time for the world to see a man with open eyes
now it's time to realize we tell ourselves the best of lies
Sorrow wrote:
>
> > To answer the question you're *really* asking here:
> > It was written that way specifically to prevent the Path of
> > Metamorphosis from ever giving the Tzimisce free aggravated hand
> > damage. Even with a Path out right now, you must burn a blood for the
> > Marauder. (or burn a blood for Body Arsenal.)
>
> If free agg hand damage is an issue, why was it given to the !Gangrel
> with "Path of the Feral Heart"? And if it's not just the agg HD, why
> is it an issue with the Tzminsce in particular? If it is the Tzimsce, why
> favor one clan over another?
It was not written specifically for any purpose with combos.
It was written to achieve the desired effect: no cost at inferior and a
cost for the superior effect. See Rolling with the Punches.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Wed, 08 Nov 2000 16:18:35 GMT, "Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> wrote:
>> To answer the question you're *really* asking here:
>> It was written that way specifically to prevent the Path of
>> Metamorphosis from ever giving the Tzimisce free aggravated hand
>> damage. Even with a Path out right now, you must burn a blood for the
>> Marauder. (or burn a blood for Body Arsenal.)>
>If free agg hand damage is an issue, why was it given to the !Gangrel
>with "Path of the Feral Heart"? And if it's not just the agg HD, why
>is it an issue with the Tzminsce in particular? If it is the Tzimsce, why
>favor one clan over another?
disclaimer: i wasn't/ain't on the design team, so i do not know for
CERTAIN. however, i can make some educated guesses. that said:
(shrug) Protean has numerous sources of aggravated hand damage and
aggravated ranged damage. That's one of its big things. The
Gangrel/!Gangrel, however, come with their own problems to balance it
out - lack of intercept/bounce being one. That said, I wouldn't want
to see a "Path of the Tree Huggers" card that gave the same effect to
the Gangrel - they DO have plenty of potential for blood gain, and
with a little work, you can rack up a couple Raven Spies and intercept
locations.
The City Gangrel, though (OBF/CEL/PRO) are in even worse shape as far
as defense goes - NO intercept disciplines and NO bounce disciplines.
And they make up a large portion of the !Gangrel. Their defense *has*
to be their offense, so it makes perfect sense to provide a card that
makes offense even easier for them, and shores up a weak point in what
used to be a weak clan.
The Tzimisce are all about defense. They can untap and intercept the
world, and have little problem doing so with the resources available
to them (AUS/ANI). Their balancing point has to be a weak offense -
and providing free agg hand damage to them would give them very solid
offense. And it's in the form of a card which you need to take a
zero-stealth, interceptable action to get rid of - playing right into
their strong suit. So IMO, the card was written that way to make sure
it always had a cost at superior, even with the Path coming out.
Makes pretty clear sense to me.
[ quoted text not captured ]
> It was not written specifically for any purpose with combos.
> It was written to achieve the desired effect: no cost at inferior and a
> cost for the superior effect. See Rolling with the Punches.
Right. My question was geared more toward Derek who seemed to
indicate that the Tzimisce were being discriminated against somehow.
Sorrow
---
"Are they dead?" - Pugsly
"Does it matter?" - Wednesday
> disclaimer: i wasn't/ain't on the design team, so i do not know for
> CERTAIN. however, i can make some educated guesses. that said:
Ok
> (shrug) Protean has numerous sources of aggravated hand damage and
> aggravated ranged damage. That's one of its big things. The
> Gangrel/!Gangrel, however, come with their own problems to balance it
> out - lack of intercept/bounce being one.
The !Gangrel don't have *that* much problem with Intercept. And the
Gangrel certainly don't.
> to see a "Path of the Tree Huggers" card that gave the same effect to
> the Gangrel - they DO have plenty of potential for blood gain, and
> with a little work, you can rack up a couple Raven Spies and intercept
> locations.
The !Gangrel could do this just as well, though at a little more net cost.
> The City Gangrel, though (OBF/CEL/PRO) are in even worse shape as far
> as defense goes - NO intercept disciplines and NO bounce disciplines.
> And they make up a large portion of the !Gangrel. Their defense *has*
> to be their offense, so it makes perfect sense to provide a card that
> makes offense even easier for them, and shores up a weak point in what
> used to be a weak clan.
Perhaps. But it is a card that also works for the country Gangrel who
do have access to the aforementioned defenses.
> The Tzimisce are all about defense. They can untap and intercept the
> world, and have little problem doing so with the resources available
> to them (AUS/ANI). Their balancing point has to be a weak offense -
> and providing free agg hand damage to them would give them very solid
> offense.
But see, their offense isn't weak even w/o the free agg HD. And it's made
even better with their Path. Where is the balance? The only thing that the
!Gangrel can't do that the Tzimsce can is bounce. And though they cannot
intercept as well as the Tzimsce, they can do so somewhat well. I do not
think this brings balance to the free agg hd issue.
> And it's in the form of a card which you need to take a
> zero-stealth, interceptable action to get rid of - playing right into
> their strong suit.
Right, which makes things even better for them. Though not by much, better
nonetheless.
> So IMO, the card was written that way to make sure it always
> had a cost at superior, even with the Path coming out.
Again, I do not believe all the above factors were considered when
determining
whether or not CM has a cost or not. It doesn't make *that* much sense.
Sorrow
-devil's advocate
---
I keep telling them that I think they're out to get me.
They ask me if I feel remose and I answer, "Why of course!
There's so much more I could have done if they'd let me!"
So it's Rorschach and Prozac and everything is groovy
On Thu, 09 Nov 2000 14:54:06 GMT, "Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> wrote:
>> (shrug) Protean has numerous sources of aggravated hand damage and
>> aggravated ranged damage. That's one of its big things. The
>> Gangrel/!Gangrel, however, come with their own problems to balance it
>> out - lack of intercept/bounce being one.>
>The !Gangrel don't have *that* much problem with Intercept. And the
>Gangrel certainly don't.
Animalism-only intercept is nice until people start chucking around
Forgotten Labryinth or Lost in Crowds + Cloak the Gathering. Then you
start to see why it only qualifies as "light intercept" - good as a
deterrent, but not as a defense.
>> to see a "Path of the Tree Huggers" card that gave the same effect to
>> the Gangrel - they DO have plenty of potential for blood gain, and
>> with a little work, you can rack up a couple Raven Spies and intercept
>> locations.>
>The !Gangrel could do this just as well, though at a little more net cost.
At a significantly higher net cost. The near-total lack of superior
Fortitude below a 10-cap means that blood gain comes extremely
difficult for them, not to mention just surviving the intercept
itself. The only really worthwhile vampire to go out and try to
intercept things with is Omaya, who with ANI/AUS/FOR and a free
prevent is actually capable of setting up a wall all by herself - but
she's the only one who can do this, and one-vampire-wonder decks are
notoriously unreliable.
>> The City Gangrel, though (OBF/CEL/PRO) are in even worse shape as far
>> as defense goes - NO intercept disciplines and NO bounce disciplines.
>> And they make up a large portion of the !Gangrel. Their defense *has*
>> to be their offense, so it makes perfect sense to provide a card that
>> makes offense even easier for them, and shores up a weak point in what
>> used to be a weak clan.>
>Perhaps. But it is a card that also works for the country Gangrel who
>do have access to the aforementioned defenses.
And the country !Gangrel weren't really in that good shape either, as
seen above. Besides, if you want an ANI/FOR/PRO deck, you might as
well go with a mix of 'straight' and anti-Gangrel, meaning that a
!Gangrel only card isn't necessarily going to be of much use to you.
>> The Tzimisce are all about defense. They can untap and intercept the
>> world, and have little problem doing so with the resources available
>> to them (AUS/ANI). Their balancing point has to be a weak offense -
>> and providing free agg hand damage to them would give them very solid
>> offense.>
>But see, their offense isn't weak even w/o the free agg HD. And it's made
Hmm, I don't know about -that- either. Before Sabbat War, VIC looked
great on paper (Horrid Form! Body Arsenal! Zip! Bang! Pow!) but tended
to be very tricky to pull off in practice. Worse, with no solution
for S:CE or decent prevent on hand, they tended to spend huge chunks
of blood on key combats, or get their blood nitpicked away by trying
to combine offense and defense. (after you stick a Pulse on Meshenka,
even that 1 for Body Arsenal while being punched for 1 begins to add
up, and then you STILL have to intercept the rescue action.) If it's
not Meshenka, worse luck - 2 for BA, punched for 1 (or Horrid Form for
1, it doesn't matter), starting to go downhill rapidly. Every
functional Tzimisce deck I've made has included the Hungry Coyote,
because there's just no other way to get blood back ONTO them once
they've burnt it all or once you've Blood Dolled it off them in order
to get 3-4 functionally-sized minions out.
Chiropteran Marauder permits anyone with VIC to spend one blood, get
hit for 1, and torporize someone - making Lolita Houston (VIC/aus) the
good vampire she should always have been, instead of the "disposable
Body Arsenal" she ended up being. It ALSO permits interceptors to run
away from things and still stop actions, if they end up having to be
the predator/prey of a Potence deck - without having to swap out their
entire deck inbetween. But making it free? Too strong.
>even better with their Path. Where is the balance? The only thing that the
>!Gangrel can't do that the Tzimsce can is bounce. And though they cannot
>intercept as well as the Tzimsce, they can do so somewhat well. I do not
>think this brings balance to the free agg hd issue.
...So the !Gangrel can't bounce and can't intercept serious stealth,
leaving them basically defenseless if their offence doesn't "go". A
Tzimisce deck can always go on the "2-VP plan" and actually have a
fighting chance even if people keep intercepting their Pulse actions
and War Ghoul recruitments.
>> And it's in the form of a card which you need to take a
>> zero-stealth, interceptable action to get rid of - playing right into
>> their strong suit.>
>Right, which makes things even better for them. Though not by much, better
>nonetheless.
So to get rid of the free agg HD, you have to generate (on average) +4
stealth on a 0 stealth action against a clan that is going to use that
free agg HD against you immediately. And it's an intercept clan, so
it will probably be able to stop the first 3-4 attempts. Compare to
the !Gangrel, who will kill the first person who comes to try it,
possibly the 2nd, but the 3rd person (or anyone along that list who
generates +2/+3 stealth) will definitely get by. Possibly the 2nd,
since a !Gangrel deck is not likely to be built around intercept and
may not draw up the untap or transient necessary.
>> So IMO, the card was written that way to make sure it always
>> had a cost at superior, even with the Path coming out.>
>Again, I do not believe all the above factors were considered when
>determining
>whether or not CM has a cost or not. It doesn't make *that* much sense.
(shrug) It could also have been the converse; 1-blood maneuvers
really suck ass for anything short of desperation, so the card needed
to be written in the "twisted" format to make the inferior usable.
I'm sure THAT was part of it too... But.
[ quoted text not captured ]