Torn Signpost (Hey Scalpel)

G'day, This got ruled on a long time ago when V:TES came out but there was a great deal of confusion in the debates about it. How does Torn Signpost actually work? Does it give you a base 2/3 hand damage and that's it? Or does it give you an effective +1/+2 hand damage. The point being of course that on Bianca it would be useless using the first method. The problem was with the new method of making everything cumulative. Look forward to a reply. Cheers, Peter

CLA...@leeds.ac.uk (DPH) writes: [ quoted text not captured ] If Torn Signposts were written as +1/+2, they would become better than Fists of Death (which would become wallpaper). By making Torn Signposts 2/3, it keeps a vampire from getting a huge base hand damage without any kind of cost. Mike

DPH wrote: > > Does it give you a base 2/3 hand damage and that's it? Yes. If another effect similarly set hand damage, they would not be cumulative. > Or > does it give you an effective +1/+2 hand damage. The > point being of course that on Bianca it would be useless > using the first method. But now Bianca doesn't have "2 Hand Damage", she has "+1 Hand Damage". So she tears off a signpost and now has 2+1=3 hand damage. James -- James Hamblin je...@cornell.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Only one human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else." -- Ambassador Delenn, "Babylon 5: Severed Dreams"

In article <56ve3v$7u8...@leeds.ac.uk> CLA...@leeds.ac.uk (DPH) writes: >How does Torn Signpost actually work? >Does it give you a base 2/3 hand damage and that's it? Or >does it give you an effective +1/+2 hand damage. The >point being of course that on Bianca it would be useless >using the first method. The problem was with the new method >of making everything cumulative. Look forward to a reply. Torn Signpost does give you a base 2/3 and that's it. What's changed is Bianca herself. Somebody from WW/WOTC announced at one point that when we see "2 hand damage" written on a minion card, we were supposed to read it as if it said "+1 hand damage." So pretend Bianca is really like Gaspare Giovanni. And, yes, if you play a Torn Signpost on Gaspare, his hand damage goes to 4 for that combat. (He gets +1 hand damage, has superior Potence: so 3+1=4.) Loki | once sysop of TWWOL | f3...@unb.ca (preferred) Brynjolfr Myrkjartanarson | now law student | d_fl...@husky1.stmarys.ca http://husky1.stmarys.ca/~d_flemmi/

In article <56ve3v$7u8...@leeds.ac.uk>, CLA...@leeds.ac.uk (DPH) wrote: >G'day, > >This got ruled on a long time ago when V:TES came out but >there was a great deal of confusion in the debates about it. >How does Torn Signpost actually work? > >Does it give you a base 2/3 hand damage and that's it? Or >does it give you an effective +1/+2 hand damage. The >point being of course that on Bianca it would be useless >using the first method. The problem was with the new method >of making everything cumulative. Look forward to a reply. > >Cheers, > >Peter Using the first method it would not be useless, Pete, as Bianca has +1 hand damage. Therefore, at inferior level, she would have 3 hand damage regardless of a ruling. What is more important is, is it used as: use your hand damage at 2/+1(at inferior) as a STRIKE for the remaineder of the combat or just as you stated. If you use it as the strike for the round you cannot stack potence strikes on top of it. Scalpel? LOS

LOS wrote: "What is more important is, is it used as: use your hand damage at 2/+1(at inferior) as a STRIKE for the remaineder of the combat or just as you stated. If you use it as the strike for the round you cannot stack potence strikes on top of it. Scalpel?" Torn Signpost just sets a vampires hand damage at a new level. It does not prevent the use of other Potence strikes in addition, nor is it a strike in and of itself. The VTES version of Torn Signpost is worded very poorly. A vampire may play Torn Signpost to get 3 hand damage, then play Fists of Death for +2 hand damage, getting a total of 5 hand damage, and then strike with Undead Strength for 7 points of damage. You could use a Bastard Sword on top of this for an adititonal +1 damage (Total of 8), but then it would be a Bastard sword strike, not a Hand strike. Torn Signpost is not a strike and does not prevent the use of other Potence cards. It just gives a vampire 2 or 3 base hand damage. That is all. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "And the license said you had to stick around until I was dead. But if you're tired of looking at my face I guess I already am." -Liz Phair

In article <56ve3v$7u8...@leeds.ac.uk>, CLA...@leeds.ac.uk (DPH) wrote: > Does it give you a base 2/3 hand damage and that's it? Or > does it give you an effective +1/+2 hand damage. The > point being of course that on Bianca it would be useless > using the first method. The problem was with the new method > of making everything cumulative. Look forward to a reply. Noted for the next Rules Meeting. ------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Wilkie Wot...@aol.com a.k.a."Scalpel" Customer Service, Wizards of the Coast "This isn't going to have a happy ending" -Detective Somerset, Se7en -------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, Lord of Shadows wrote: > In article <56ve3v$7u8...@leeds.ac.uk>, CLA...@leeds.ac.uk > (DPH) wrote: > >G'day, > > > >How does Torn Signpost actually work? > > > >Does it give you a base 2/3 hand damage and that's it? Or > >does it give you an effective +1/+2 hand damage. The > >point being of course that on Bianca it would be useless > >using the first method. The problem was with the new method > >of making everything cumulative. Look forward to a reply. > > > Using the first method it would not be useless, Pete, as Bianca > has +1 hand damage. Therefore, at inferior level, she would have > 3 hand damage regardless of a ruling. What is more important is, > is it used as: use your hand damage at 2/+1(at inferior) as a > STRIKE for the remaineder of the combat or just as you stated. If > you use it as the strike for the round you cannot stack potence > strikes on top of it. Scalpel? TSP is indeed a problem because of of this. By present wording TSP is just a "base hand damage" modifier. It doesn't add anything, it changes what was before a universal 1 base hand damage to 2/3. So it is still a hand strike, and you may use all the modifiers that act upon hand strikes (like Undead Strength). Wich doesn't mean it is correct, because there are many inconsistencies that arise from that fact, such as growing claws on the signpost or using a Bastard Sword "attached" to the signpost. A nice errata/house rule is making it a one-shot melee weapon that is burned after combat. Scalpel? (And there's no way I'm buying that "feat of strength" crap...) David Pontes 8[

Wot...@aol.com (Jon Wilkie) writes: >In article <56ve3v$7u8...@leeds.ac.uk>, CLA...@leeds.ac.uk (DPH) wrote: >> Does it give you a base 2/3 hand damage and that's it? Or >> does it give you an effective +1/+2 hand damage. The >> point being of course that on Bianca it would be useless >> using the first method. The problem was with the new method >> of making everything cumulative. Look forward to a reply. >Noted for the next Rules Meeting. Torn Signpost resets a vampire's (or ally with potence)'s base hand damage to two or three. A vampire's inate bonus to hand damage will still be applied to that new base (Biance would get 2/3 +1 = 3/4). The only reason for not making the Signpost read +1/+2 is to keep it from being stackable with itself (which would make Fists of Death completely inferior rto the Signpost). -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Experience is something you http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | get just after you need it. Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

David Pontes wrote: " A nice errata/house rule is making it a one-shot melee weapon that is burned after combat. Scalpel? (And there's no way I'm buying that "feat of strength" crap...)" Hey David. I know we have had this very same discussion before, but hey why not again :-) Anyway, why is it needed to make an errata to make Torn Signpost into a one shot melee weapon? I understand that the name "Torn Signpost" does not quite match up with the function of the card, and may be somewhat aesthetically unpleasing to some as a result, but eratta is used to fix cards with problems. Torn Signpost is not a broken card, nor is at an unbalanced card, nor is it a wallpaper card. Torn Signpost is a perfectly ballanced card and one of the basic building blocks of Potence Combat, which does not need to be weakened in any way. Without Torn Signpost as a card that Undead Strength can be stacked upon, Pot Combat becomes a game of 3 point hits, unless you happen to own the very rare Fists of Death. This makes FoD a very powerful and nessecary Rare, giving a huge advantage in Pot combat, especially if you are playing a non Celerity (i.e. Nosferatu or Giovanni or Losambra) Pot combat deck. Without stackable Pot cards (TS+FoD+US), non Celerity Potence combat becomes completely outclassed by the Brujah. As it stands, a Nosferatu can use 2 cards (TS+US) to punch someone for 5 damage for no blood cost. The Brujah can use 2 cards (TS+Blur) to hit someone for 9 damage for 1 blood. The Brujah still have a slight edge, but if the Nosferatu can put the Brujah into torpor in his first big 5 point hit, the Nosferatu wins out. Without Torn Signpost as a card that can be stacked upon, the Nosferatu have a much greater combat disadvantage when compared tot the Brujah. I understand that you are not fond of the "Feat of Strength" rationalization of the card title, but if you are willing to accept eratta that changes the card text to "...is a one shot melee weapon", are you not also willing to accept eratta that leaves the function of the card alone, but changes to title to "Vampiric Might" or something? This would fix the aesthetic problems with the card while leaving the function of the card completely alone, and is much easier that changing the function of the card (weakening it considerably in the process). Torn Signpost is not a card that needs to be fixed or changed in any way, except possibly for aesthetic reasons. Fixing aesthetic problems should not comprimise the function of the cards being fixed. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 24 Nov 1996 pd...@aol.com wrote: > David Pontes wrote: > " A nice errata/house rule is making it a one-shot melee weapon > that is burned after combat. Scalpel? > > Anyway, why is it needed to make an errata to make Torn Signpost into a > one shot melee weapon? [TSP does not need errata because it's not broken that way -- the only reason for this is aesthetics] You're right about that one: having a potence card deal +1/+2 non-stackable damage without blood cost is indeed fair for Potence standards. And the only reason I insist in having the card errataed (?) is indeed aesthetics. > > As it stands, a Nosferatu can use 2 cards (TS+US) to punch someone for 5 > damage for no blood cost. The Brujah can use 2 cards (TS+Blur) to hit > someone for 9 damage for 1 blood. The Brujah still have a slight edge, > but if the Nosferatu can put the Brujah into torpor in his first big 5 > point hit, the Nosferatu wins out. Without Torn Signpost as a card that > can be stacked upon, the Nosferatu have a much greater combat disadvantage > when compared tot the Brujah. > I can't see why... If you'd make it a melee weapon you could still put potence cards on it -- UStr. can be used on melee weapons, you know... (as can be most Potence cards) Only thing is that you could *not* use it with hand damage-only modifiers (such as claws or Burning Wrath) and you couldn't stack it with melee weapons (such as Bastard Sword and Bangh Nahk (sp?) ). > I understand that you are not fond of the "Feat of Strength" > rationalization of the card title, but if you are willing to accept eratta > that changes the card text to "...is a one shot melee weapon", are you not > also willing to accept eratta that leaves the function of the card alone, > but changes to title to "Vampiric Might" or something? This would fix the > aesthetic problems with the card while leaving the function of the card > completely alone, and is much easier that changing the function of the > card (weakening it considerably in the process). > I believe they could make something in line with Zip Gun and have a bold text saying "MELEE WEAPON" prior to the main text. At the end they would put "burn after combat". Pretty simple, IMHO. Anyway, if you want "vampiric might" you got Fists of Death or Undead Strength. > Torn Signpost is not a card that needs to be fixed or changed in any way, > except possibly for aesthetic reasons. Fixing aesthetic problems should > not comprimise the function of the cards being fixed. > I agree with you that TSP is not a broken card and in no way endangers the balanced of the game to be used as it is, but it doesn't "compromise" it's function (as I believe you'll agree after you read the cards I've mentioned). It's really a matter of aesthetics (wich seems to be of no concern for the rules team, though I think it should) David Pontes 8[

David Pontes wrote: > [snip: TS as melee weapon is just as good] But you can't use it in an Immortal Grapple, a _big_ disadvantage. > Anyway, if you want "vampiric might" you got Fists of Death or > Undead Strength. Fists of Death is rare (I play a Potence combat deck, but I only have one. I have two Fire in the Blood, but they suck). Undead Strength doesn't stack on itself. > I agree with you that TSP is not a broken card and in no way > endangers the balanced of the game to be used as it is, but it doesn't > "compromise" it's function (as I believe you'll agree after you read the > cards I've mentioned). But the fact that it cannot be used in an Immortal Grapple, and that cards which state that minions cannot use equipment prevent its use also make this a bad idea. [ quoted text not captured ]

David Pontes <l41...@alfa.ist.utl.pt> writes: >On 24 Nov 1996 pd...@aol.com wrote: >> David Pontes wrote: >> " A nice errata/house rule is making it a one-shot melee weapon >> that is burned after combat. Scalpel? >> Anyway, why is it needed to make an errata to make Torn Signpost into a >> one shot melee weapon? >[TSP does not need errata because it's not broken that way -- the only >reason for this is aesthetics] > You're right about that one: having a potence card deal +1/+2 >non-stackable damage without blood cost is indeed fair for Potence >standards. And the only reason I insist in having the card errataed (?) >is indeed aesthetics. If we're going for purity of the game world, then you need to modify the weapon such that it can only be used by someone with potence (in case it is stolen with Fast Hands or somesuch): (In the broken Melee Weapon template of VtES:) Torn Signpost - combat - potence - 0 cost Only usable before range is determined. Put this card on this vampire. This card represents a melee weapon. Minion with potence may inflict +1 hand damage each strike with this weapon. Minion with superior potence may inflict +2 hand damage each strike with this weapon. Burn this card at the end of combat. (In the clearer Melee Weapon template of Jyhad:) Torn Signpost - combat - potence - 0 cost Melee Weapon. Can only be brought into play before range is chosen. Burn this card at the end of combat. Strike: +1 hand damage if bearer has potence. Strike: +2 hand damage if bearer has superior potence. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Eschew http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | Obfuscation [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <57cnfl$9...@redwood.cs.sc.edu>, L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote: >(In the broken Melee Weapon template of VtES:) > >Torn Signpost - combat - potence - 0 cost >Only usable before range is determined. Put this card on this vampire. >This card represents a melee weapon. Minion with potence may inflict +1 >hand damage each strike with this weapon. Minion with superior potence >may inflict +2 hand damage each strike with this weapon. Burn this card >at the end of combat. What is so unclear about this? (read on) This seems better than the one below... >(In the clearer Melee Weapon template of Jyhad:) > >Torn Signpost - combat - potence - 0 cost >Melee Weapon. Can only be brought into play before range is chosen. Burn >this card at the end of combat. >Strike: +1 hand damage if bearer has potence. >Strike: +2 hand damage if bearer has superior potence. But then you couldn't use it with Undead Strength or any other such modifier. Is this really what you meant, Scott? --Judy -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> "You boys aren't drunk. You're just stupid." - Beavis & Butt-Head <> <> jcoo...@eng.umd.edu * http://www.glue.umd.edu/~jcookson <> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

jcoo...@Glue.umd.edu (Judith Cookson Grunberger) writes: >In article <57cnfl$9...@redwood.cs.sc.edu>, >L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote: >>(In the broken Melee Weapon template of VtES:) >> >>Torn Signpost - combat - potence - 0 cost >>Only usable before range is determined. Put this card on this vampire. >>This card represents a melee weapon. Minion with potence may inflict +1 >>hand damage each strike with this weapon. Minion with superior potence >>may inflict +2 hand damage each strike with this weapon. Burn this card >>at the end of combat. >What is so unclear about this? (read on) This seems better than the one >below... It suggests that the strike is a hand strike, as has been mentioned many times before in relation to this template. >>(In the clearer Melee Weapon template of Jyhad:) >> >>Torn Signpost - combat - potence - 0 cost >>Melee Weapon. Can only be brought into play before range is chosen. Burn >>this card at the end of combat. >>Strike: +1 hand damage if bearer has potence. >>Strike: +2 hand damage if bearer has superior potence. >But then you couldn't use it with Undead Strength or any other such >modifier. Is this really what you meant, Scott? Actually, you could use it with any other modifier (except itself, as normal) with the exception of Burning Wrath. Undead Strength in particular goes out of its way to be included in Melee weapons' strikes. It reads exactly as it is intended to - but applying false rulings to it may lead to false readings, of course. [ quoted text not captured ]

sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) wrote: >David Pontes <l41...@alfa.ist.utl.pt> writes: >>On 24 Nov 1996 pd...@aol.com wrote: >>> David Pontes wrote: >>> " A nice errata/house rule is making it a one-shot melee weapon >>> that is burned after combat. Scalpel? >>> Anyway, why is it needed to make an errata to make Torn Signpost into a >>> one shot melee weapon? >>[TSP does not need errata because it's not broken that way -- the only >>reason for this is aesthetics] [snip] >If we're going for purity of the game world, then you need to modify the >weapon such that it can only be used by someone with potence (in case >it is stolen with Fast Hands or somesuch): Why? I'd assume the Feat of Strength is to rip the sign post out of the ground, not strike with it. Superior potence just means you rip out a bigger signpost. :) [card mods snipped] Pretty cool. gnfnrf