To what extent is it ok to tell people how to play their game?
I know that it is illegal for an observer not involved in the game to
make comments and that "players are expected to behave in a respectful
and sportsmanlike manner at all times", but this leaves the door open
for pointing out every little aspect of what may or may not be
apparent to another player, most commonly if it is to your advantage.
Obviously this isn't as much of an issue where every player at the
table is a veteran but when there are varying levels of skill the
temptation is there to point out anything that might be missed by a
player if it will help theirs and your cause.
If someone is new to the game and learning, does this make a
difference to whether players 'help' them or should they just let them
make horrible mistakes and then let them know how bad they did
afterwards?
I can see this becoming tedious in the former and demoralising in the
latter. It might also be the crux of why the V:tES player base is
largely stagnant.
Interested in your thoughts.
Aaron
Prince of Adelaide
[ quoted text not captured ]
For newbies, most of the players here don't have a problem talking
them through their options, especially in combat, eg "so you are at
close range, do you have an immortal grapple? Now is the time to play
it". Its better to talk them through what is happening, be it the
mechanics of combat or voting, or the strategy of the current game
state.
We tend to have open discussions about the game state of the table and
what is happening. For less experienced players this can be an eye
opener. I try to point out all the options to a less experienced
player, even if it is to my own detriment. However, if an experienced
player can't see what is about the befall him, I don't hesitate to
take advantage of that.
In tournaments, I think the players can discuss as much as they want
as openly as they want. If one person is trying to talk a less
experienced player into doing something detrimental, it won't take
long for another player to pipe up.
Steve Harris
Prince of Brisbane
On Jan 21, 2:07 am, Aaron Connor <aaron.con...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If someone is new to the game and learning, does this make a
> difference to whether players 'help' them or should they just let them
> make horrible mistakes and then let them know how bad they did
> afterwards?
If it is a casual game, and someone is learning, a certain amount of
worthwhile aid from more experienced players is in no way out of the
realm of reason--i.e. pointing out things that are generally obvious,
but not necessarily to the new person; making sure that they don't do
things that are illegal or outright stupid; whatever. The kind of
stuff that you point out in *any* game where you are playing with
someone new.
That being said, the endless "No, no, you should do *this* instead of
that, 'cause of a factor that only I can envision currently..." is
incredibly annoying to both the new player *and* everyone else at the
table. So I'd avoid that.
In terms of competitive play, I'd stay away from telling other folks
what they should be doing. Especially as someone else at the table is
going to tell you to shut the hell up and just play your game.
> I can see this becoming tedious in the former and demoralising in the
> latter. It might also be the crux of why the V:tES player base is
> largely stagnant.
Why would it be the crux of why the VTES player base is stagnant?
Sometimes people are annoying in all games.
-Peter
Tell them, "Sure you can do that, but you really out to reconsider the
order/game state/what happens if you do first." Have them pause to
reconsider, since if someone points out a better option exists they
may find it on their own. A player will learn more if they figure it
out for themself than if someone just tells them what to do.
If they still fail to see it, then you can give more information until
it clicks.
[ quoted text not captured ]
The way the experienced players in Sydney tend to do it is to get the
new player to pitch an idea, based on what they see/know and then if
it doesn't wholly and entirely suck, let them do it. If it's clearly
a Bad Plan (tm) then suggest a different approach and just wait about
to answer questions on cards.
The other one, is just clearly talk new players through the stages of
things and tell the others not to play too many long chain or multi-
round combat decks.
Plus have some good old garden variety decks.
A toolbox bleeder
A bleed-king hit
A vote-bleed (!Tor are actually a really nice clan to teach people
with) and include some Cel-Guns tech
A blocky-bleed (!Ven w/obf is good, toss in a few permacepts and maybe
some stuff like Ablative Skin & Freak Drives)
Start them on the "minimal moving parts" jobs and then move up to the
ones with many "obvious" moving parts. When they're flying solo, help
them to build their collection with a standard kind of "2 Starters +
Commons I'm Willing to Get Rid of From My Boxes".
Seems to work reasonably around here.
On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 23:07:27 -0800 (PST), Aaron Connor
<aaron....@gmail.com> wrote:
> If someone is new to the game and learning, does this make a
> difference to whether players 'help' them or should they just let them
> make horrible mistakes and then let them know how bad they did
> afterwards?
Casual game (of course assuming no ante) - if someone is a noob, it's ok
to coach them, especially when a more experienced player sits next to
them and helps them (without playing in the game). A lot can be learned
that way. If the experienced player plays, it's called table talk, not
coaching. :)
Tournament - of course not. Observers are not even supposed to note
technical mistakes (instead calling the judge when they see one).
Observers should in no way interfere with the game.
--
Regards,
Daneel
> That being said, the endless "No, no, you should do *this* instead of
> that, 'cause of a factor that only I can envision currently..." is
> incredibly annoying to both the new player *and* everyone else at the
> table. So I'd avoid that.
It is a not so fine line between giving suggestions, benefiting them
from your experience but then gaining a significant advantage from
said 'advice'. It really is a matter of the tables perspective. It is
the general V:tES communities perspective that I would like to get a
read on.
> In terms of competitive play, I'd stay away from telling other folks
> what they should be doing. Especially as someone else at the table is
> going to tell you to shut the hell up and just play your game.
Yet what about reminding them, veteran or green, about current
gamestate conditions, especially the 'may' ones? e.g. "Hey, don't
forget you have the edge." "You played a Vessel, wanna burn a blood
doll?" "Don't forget to pay for the contest now or you will concede!"
The list goes on. Whilst some parties might be hoping that a
fortuitous mistake might occur the other guy on the table is busy
being a second brain for a cross table ally. Sure it may generate
table hate from some quarters but your just helping, right? Could get
old very fast and certainly slows the game down.
> Why would it be the crux of why the VTES player base is stagnant?
> Sometimes people are annoying in all games.
>
> -Peter
Because I can see it being potentially frustrating for those new to
the game. Not only are they coming to terms with the vast array of
cards and effects and what they want to do with their own deck, but
also the machinations of table talk, political vote discussions,
vagaries of predator\prey stances and the fine art of deal making. It
is ALOT to take in. It is fine if as Steve Harris suggests that you
offer advice that is impartial, even detrimental to your own position
but it only takes another on the table to dispute the validity of that
advice and your back to square one. Lets face it, advocating your own
position is a big part of the game and until you have a grasp on the
(sometimes not-so) subtle art of table manipulation it could seem
pretty daunting. Perhaps tables with a relatively green player should
have game tale talk kept to a minimum so that it can just play out, I
dunno.
> The way the experienced players in Sydney tend to do it...
*snip*
> The other one, is just clearly talk new players through the stages of
> things and tell the others not to play too many long chain or multi-
> round combat decks.
I have offered to sit out some rounds and go over options, explain
cards in hand, point out player logical and be there for questions.
Fortunately I get just as much a kick from observing games as I do
playing in them so this is fine for me, though not for everybody.
> Plus have some good old garden variety decks.
> A toolbox bleeder
> A bleed-king hit
> A vote-bleed (!Tor are actually a really nice clan to teach people
> with) and include some Cel-Guns tech
> A blocky-bleed (!Ven w/obf is good, toss in a few permacepts and maybe
> some stuff like Ablative Skin & Freak Drives)
All good deck ideas to start with.
> Start them on the "minimal moving parts" jobs and then move up to the
> ones with many "obvious" moving parts. When they're flying solo, help
> them to build their collection with a standard kind of "2 Starters +
> Commons I'm Willing to Get Rid of From My Boxes".
>
> Seems to work reasonably around here.
The new players I am thinking of have all started their own
collections and as such are building their own decks, which imho is
the way to go as you know what you were thinking for why that card is
there in your hand. It also means that they will bump into errata
shenanigans. Ammo not fitting into Zip Guns comes to mind...sucks to
have built deck only to find that its core concept is invalid on the
day.
On Jan 21, 11:09 pm, Aaron Connor <aaron.con...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It is a not so fine line between giving suggestions, benefiting them
> from your experience but then gaining a significant advantage from
> said 'advice'. It really is a matter of the tables perspective. It is
> the general V:tES communities perspective that I would like to get a
> read on.
Well, the thing is is that it is very difficult to differentiate
between "I'm giving you help to help you out" and "I'm giving you help
'cause it benefits me". I'd figure that the general consensus is if
someone is learning the game, people should give them help to help
them out in figuring out the game, but not try and game them into
giving you an advantage. 'Cause doing that is stupid.
> Yet what about reminding them, veteran or green, about current
> gamestate conditions, especially the 'may' ones? e.g. "Hey, don't
> forget you have the edge." "You played a Vessel, wanna burn a blood
> doll?" "Don't forget to pay for the contest now or you will concede!"
These aren't things that you would specifically tell a new player.
Pointing out that someone is forgetting to do something that they can
do due to something on the table or some card they play is not giving
advice or coaching. It is making sure people play the game correctly.
I mean, yeah, gaining from the Edge or burning a Blood Doll is
optional, but reminding someone of this is perfectly reasonable.
> Could get old very fast and certainly slows the game down.
How does reminding someone that they have the Edge (or that some other
optional effect is in play) slow the game down? There isn't any debate
there. You say "Hey--you have the edge.". End of discussion.
> Because I can see it being potentially frustrating for those new to
> the game. Not only are they coming to terms with the vast array of
> cards and effects and what they want to do with their own deck, but
> also the machinations of table talk, political vote discussions,
> vagaries of predator\prey stances and the fine art of deal making.
If someone is learning the game, the people playing that game should
have enough sense to not overwhelm them, or try to use them to gain
advantage. 'Cause that is annoying. Let them learn the game, help them
out where needed.
> Perhaps tables with a relatively green player should
> have game tale talk kept to a minimum so that it can just play out, I
> dunno.
Why would it not? Someone is new to the game. Let them learn the game,
help them out where needed. Everyone else should be reasonable as a
result. Why try and teach someone VTES when playing a Madness Network
Reversal of Fortunes deck, or whatever?
-Peter
My stance in this is SHUT UP if you're not part of the game. We can
discuss after the game. For one thing, saying something like "Why
didn't you play that?" tells everyone in the table that there is
something you could have played. Don't do that, that's not part of the
game.
On Jan 21, 4:41 pm, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote:
> Tournament - of course not. Observers are not even supposed to note
> technical mistakes (instead calling the judge when they see one).
The only problem with that is if people are playing fairly quickly and
a judge isn't physically nearby, it may be detrimental to rewind the
game back to the state it was in when the mistake was made - the
longer it takes the judge to show up and rule to rewind, the more
potential there is for players to gain undue knowledge of what's in
other players' hands, for example. I'd much rather have someone not in
a game point out a technical error as soon as it happens, in order to
avoid that.
John Eno
> If someone is new to the game and learning, does this make a
> difference to whether players 'help' them or should they just let them
> make horrible mistakes and then let them know how bad they did
> afterwards?
I think that there isn't enough coaching of new players a lot of the
time. The learning curve on this game is so long that helping someone
out may shorten it significantly. If an experienced player can explain
to a player why the new player should or should not do something, it
gives them a deeper understanding of the mechanics and table dynamics.
Also, if experienced players can explain why they are doing what they
are doing(or explain it soon after if it is something sneaky), it
could be illuminating. Based on the tables I've been at, we don't hear
enough from experienced players, even long after the fact. Are they
hoarding their secrets, taking them to the grave? I'd like to hear an
answer, myself.
Tournaments are a different situation because of their strict rules,
prizes involved, and the results are more significant.
Brandon
On Jan 22, 10:43 am, brandonsantacruz <brandonsantac...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]
Weird. I cut way down on commenting on games because it seemed like
people either thought it was patronizing or thought it was attempted
manipulation.
Also, telling people what they should do is rarely as worthwhile as
people learning from their own mistakes. This, of course, doesn't
work so well when people don't think they make mistakes.
On Jan 22, 3:18 pm, Aaron Connor <aaron.con...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The new players I am thinking of have all started their own
> collections and as such are building their own decks, which imho is
> the way to go as you know what you were thinking for why that card is
> there in your hand. It also means that they will bump into errata
> shenanigans. Ammo not fitting into Zip Guns comes to mind...sucks to
> have built deck only to find that its core concept is invalid on the
> day.
With those guys, you should maybe just pencil up some decks during the
"downtime".
Good for your own deckbuilding practice, but also a good chance for
them to "build decks" without finding them in boxes and/or sleeving
them.
Plus I'd be suggesting to them that they should probably have, ready
at a given time, a bleeder, a blocker, a trick deck and another deck.
> Casual game (of course assuming no ante) - if someone is a noob, it's ok
> to coach them, especially when a more experienced player sits next to
> them and helps them (without playing in the game). A lot can be learned
> that way. If the experienced player plays, it's called table talk, not
> coaching. :)
>> --
> Regards,
>
> Daneel
What ante?
On Jan 26, 7:21 am, Orange Devil <orangede...@home.nl> wrote:
> What ante?
Is when you are staking a card from each player, normally chosen at
random before the game starts from out of the deck you are playing, as
a bet that will go to the winner of the game. There are some cards
that are specific to Ante in Jyhad. Wizards of the Coast were big on
it at the beginning of both Magic:The Gathering and Jyhad but people
were quite reluctant to risk those rare\good cards so as such it is
hardly ever done.
Aa