[OT] Have Mariana Gilbert(s) available for trade

Hi, several people have mentioned they cannot get hold of any copies of Mariana Gilbert. I am fortunate to have a few available for trade, so you wont have to shell out $15 on ebay. I prefer to trade rather than sell. Here's my want list, mail me if interested in trading: Bloodlines: Rares: For decks: Art's Traumatic Essence Bond with the Mountain Coagulated Entity Contagion Darkling Trickery Erebus Mask Frozen Object High Top Blanche Hill Lazarene Inquisitor Le Dinh Tho Muricia's Call Shroud of Absence Rewind Time Siren's Lure Shroud of Absence Swoop Syneosis Tabriz Assembly The Call The Grandest Trick Krassimir Nu, the Pillar For my collection: Armor of Terra Ashes to Ashes Blissful Agony Call the Great Beast Condemnation: Betrayed Condemnation: Doomed Conscripted Statue Defender of the Haven Denial of Aphrodite's Favor Draught of the Soul Engling Fury Gestalt Gift of Bellona Huitzilopochtli Iron Heart Martyr's Resilience Neutral Guard Nightmare Curse Paris Opera House Raful al-Zarqa Sight Beyond Sight Stone Dog The Wildebeest True Faith Uncommons/Commons: Any and any number of the Temporis cards! Need quite a few: Sanguine Instruction Adonai 2 Anesthetic Touch Barry 2 Concert Tour 2 Concordance 2 Coroner's Contract 2 D'habi Revenant Dirty Contract Erinyi Falcon's Eye Fear of the Void Below 2 Feral Spirit Ferox, the Rock Lord Flow within the Mountain Gaėl Pilet Howler Ilse Jack Jack Dawson Jerry Karl Larry Luma, Stone Beauty Marconius Mark Obsidian 2 Panacea 2 Patrol 2 Pounce 2 Razor Bat Reg Driscoll Repulsion 2 Riddle Phantastique Saxum, Master of Slaves Stone Travel Strength of the Bear Terry The Baron 2 Toreador's Bane 2 Tracker's Mark 2 Truman Ublo-Satha Unre, Keeper of Golconda 2 Vitae Block 2 Walk of Caine Wolf Valentine Final Nights: Rares: Charisma Commons: Garrote Guard Duty Meat Hook Save Face 2x Zillah's Valley Vampires: Ur-Shulgi, The Shepherd Theo Bell Ramona 2x Isabel Giovanni Calebros the Martyr Ezmerelda Aisling Sturbridge Goratrix Jan Pieterzoon Sabbat/Sabbat War: Rares: Black Metamorphosis Uncommons & Commons: 3x Courier 2x Patronage The above cards are the cards I actually need because I do not have them. I obviously also trade for any of the really good cards like Disarm, Direct Intervention etc. I also trade for the any fixed Vampires from the Final Nights starter decks as well as cards only found in Sabbat War.

"Lasse Winther Wehner" <l...@mail1.stofanet.dk> wrote in message news:3c29000c$0$226$ba62...@nntp01.dk.telia.net... [ quoted text not captured ] > Gaël Pilet [ quoted text not captured ] As a side note, I don't see how this is off-topic, since this message is about: - the *GAME* *JYHAD* (VTES) - the concept of *TRADING* So, there is no reason to state that this message is off-topic. It is perfectly on-topic. Thank you for staying on-topic. :) Kevin M., Prince of Madison, WI (USA) "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

"Kevin M." wrote: > > someone wrote in message... > > Hi, > > several people have mentioned they cannot get hold of any copies of Mariana > > Gilbert. I am fortunate to have a few available for trade, so you wont have > > to shell out $15 on ebay. I prefer to trade rather than sell. > > > > Here's my want list, mail me if interested in trading: > As a side note, I don't see how this is off-topic, since this message is about: > > - the *GAME* *JYHAD* (VTES) > - the concept of *TRADING* > > So, there is no reason to state that this message is off-topic. It is off-topic because messages of solicitations for card trades are specifically *EXCLUDED* in this newsgroup. Furthermore, they are also specifically *INCLUDED* in the newsgroup rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc. Enough said. While we're on the subject, (and addressed to all concerned, not specifically to Kevin who wasn't the person that started this thread) please do not knowingly start off-topic threads, whether using the "OT" tag or not. The "OT" tag is not a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card for starting off-topic threads. > Thank you for staying on-topic. :) Agreed. Fred

"Kevin M." wrote: > > someone wrote in message... > > Hi, > > several people have mentioned they cannot get hold of any copies of > > Mariana Gilbert. I am fortunate to have a few available for trade, > > so you wont have to shell out $15 on ebay. I prefer to trade rather > > than sell. > > > > Here's my want list, mail me if interested in trading: > As a side note, I don't see how this is off-topic, since this message > is about: > > - the *GAME* *JYHAD* (VTES) > - the concept of *TRADING* > > So, there is no reason to state that this message is off-topic. It is off-topic because messages of solicitations for card trades are specifically *EXCLUDED* in the official charter for this newsgroup. Furthermore, they are also specifically *INCLUDED* in the official charter for the newsgroup rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc. That group is where such posts belong. Enough said. While we're on the subject, (and addressed to all concerned, not specifically to Kevin who wasn't the person that started this thread) please do not knowingly start off-topic threads, whether using the "OT" tag or not. The "OT" tag is not a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card for starting off-topic threads. > Thank you for staying on-topic. :) Agreed. Fred

Maybe we should change the charter to include trading. Lasse "Frederick Scott" <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> skrev i en meddelelse news:3C3793BB...@removethis.com... [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 6 Jan 2002 13:03:32 +0100, Lasse Winther Wehner wrote: >Maybe we should change the charter to include trading. I was curious as to what the charter might actually be. This newsgroup was created as part of a general reorganisation and renaming of rec.games.deckmaster by Ron Dippold in October 1994. The charter stated was: >Discussion of the trading card game "Jyhad". Topics include >the rules of the game, strategies for playing the game, and >information about the various cards and expansions sets for >the game, as well as other topics deemed to be specific to Jyhad. >Postings regarding sales, auctions, or trades of Jyhad cards are >not permitted in this group, as they belong in the companion >newsgroup rec.games.?.marketplace. Changing the charter is non-trivial - it's effectively the same process as any newsgroup change - a RFD and CFV. And, of course, we see that discussion of the trading card game "Vampire: The Eternal Struggle" is off-topic too. That belongs in rec.games.trading-cards.misc whose charter is: >Trading card game discussions which do not fit under any of the other >newsgroups in the hierarchy. Examples include existing games which >do not generate much traffic (such as TSR's Spellfire), new games >which do not yet have a game-specific newsgroup within the hierarchy, >and any other topic which does not fit within the charter of the >other newsgroups. It is anticipated that as new trading card games >are introduced, they will be discussed here first, and if the traffic >levels warrant it, a proposal will be generated to create a new group >specifically for any such game. Andrew

"Andrew S. Davidson" wrote: > I was curious as to what the charter might actually be. This > newsgroup was created as part of a general reorganisation and renaming > of rec.games.deckmaster by Ron Dippold in October 1994. The charter > stated was: > > >Discussion of the trading card game "Jyhad". Topics include > [...] > And, of course, we see that discussion of the trading card game > "Vampire: The Eternal Struggle" is off-topic too. That belongs in > rec.games.trading-cards.misc whose charter is: Too obvious really to even respond to, but since you claim ignorance: Jyhad was renamed V:TES. [WotC press release, April 26, 1995] So the discussion belongs in rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad. Spurious cross-posting again neutered. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3C385424...@white-wolf.com... > "Andrew S. Davidson" wrote: > > I was curious as to what the charter might actually be. This > > newsgroup was created as part of a general reorganisation and renaming > > of rec.games.deckmaster by Ron Dippold in October 1994. The charter > > stated was: > > > > >Discussion of the trading card game "Jyhad". Topics include > > [...] > > And, of course, we see that discussion of the trading card game > > "Vampire: The Eternal Struggle" is off-topic too. That belongs in > > rec.games.trading-cards.misc whose charter is: > > Too obvious really to even respond to, but since you claim ignorance: Actually claiming true ignorance to news group stuff, why is it still rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad? As there are no more 'jyhad' cards printed, fewer and fewer references to the game as 'jyhad' isn't it more and more likely that new players will not be able to locate this semi-official news group because its actually not called rec.games.trading-cards.vtes? What is necessary to create a new group, and remove this one? Why has it not already been done...other then typical human lazyness? I mean, I'm sure we have enough active members here to qualify for whatever restrictions are necessary? -- Aaron The Nosferatu Stuff

Lasse wrote: >>Maybe we should change the charter to include trading.>> There isn't any need for this. There is an existing trade list (rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc) that specifically exists to facilitate this; there are multiple other trading arenas (two or three trade sites on the web; at least 1 trading listserve). That, and allowing trades on this list would undoubtedly flood the list with a huge number of non discussion based trade posts and their followups, making it difficult to find the actual discussion posts (personally, I don't want to wade through 10 trade posts to find 5 actual conversations) and compromising the whole point of this list (discussing VTES). Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/bakija6 "...and the only person I can stand to be around is a neutered vampire who cheats at kitten poker!" -Buffy

Andrew wrote: >>And, of course, we see that discussion of the trading card game "Vampire: The Eternal Struggle" is off-topic too. That belongs in rec.games.trading-cards.misc whose charter is:>> Oh, Andrew. Why are you still here? You don't like this game. You don't play this game. You don't like the basic mechanics. You don't like the game play. You don't like the art. You don't like a basic goals. You don't like this game. Yet here you still are, posting trolling drivel like the above quoted text. Why? Why? Why? [ quoted text not captured ]

The Nosferatu Stuff wrote: > Actually claiming true ignorance to news group stuff, why is it still > rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad? As there are no more 'jyhad' cards printed, > fewer and fewer references to the game as 'jyhad' isn't it more and more > likely that new players will not be able to locate this semi-official news > group because its actually not called rec.games.trading-cards.vtes? > > What is necessary to create a new group, and remove this one? Why has it > not already been done...other then typical human lazyness? I mean, I'm sure > we have enough active members here to qualify for whatever restrictions are > necessary? You can call it human laziness if you like. I'd call it a huge pain in the ass. This is akin to a newsgroup reorganization, I suppose, except that it removes one group and creates only one group in its place. Basically, things of this nature don't get done unless there's a very solid motivation. When a reorganization is done to split a newsgroup, there's usually a real element of multiple distinct types of traffic (with a sufficient quantity of traffic) and large segments of the readership who don't want see one one or more of the segments they're not interested in. The Magic newsgroups got split into subgroups because some people didn't care about strategy, some didn't care about rules, and some _only_ cared about one or the other. This caused a large enough number of people to become sufficiently dissatisfied with the status quo to go out and do something about it. Doing something about a newsgroup naming flaw that isn't impacting large numbers of people in any significant way isn't going to cut it in terms of inspiring a reorganization. And I'm pretty sure that's how the people who made up these rules wanted it. By the way, as far as changing the charter goes, I'd personally be against that because of the confusion it would cause (this would become the only group that allowed it) and because I'm not convinced that such posts might not become a problem in the future. I know it's really harmless in this group at the minute, but I've spent too long in the Magic groups where sellers and traders are constantly vying for attention however they can get it. Fred

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:20020106113141...@mb-mn.aol.com... > Lasse wrote: > >>Maybe we should change the charter to include trading.>> > > There isn't any need for this. i think there is need for this. many people would like to include trading. >There is an existing trade list > (rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc) that specifically exists to > facilitate this; there are multiple other trading arenas (two or three trade > sites on the web; at least 1 trading listserve). ever looked at this newsgroup (marketplace misc) it is useless. > > That, and allowing trades on this list would undoubtedly flood the list with a > huge number of non discussion based trade posts and their followups, making it > difficult to find the actual discussion posts (personally, I don't want to wade > through 10 trade posts to find 5 actual conversations) and compromising the > whole point of this list (discussing VTES). so all the stuff concerning the rpg should be banned to?! i and many others find the trading posts very usefull (more usefull than 60% of the stuff that is written here) and hopefully we will see more of them in the future AT [ quoted text not captured ]

"AT" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:3c3889ac$0$26072$3b21...@news.univie.ac.at... > > >>Maybe we should change the charter to include trading.>> > > There isn't any need for this. > i think there is need for this. many people would like to include trading. There are multiple places for them to do this. rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad is not the appropriate place. > i and many others find the trading posts very usefull (more usefull than 60% > of the stuff that is written here) and hopefully we will see more of them in > the future I have serious doubts about your definition of "very usefull" as we usually see fewer than 10 trading posts per month. If you aren't looking for the content of this newsgroup, try the other message boards for this game (follow the links in my signature). Anyone serious about Trading will be visting one or more of the following locations: There are two websites dedicated to trading Vampire the Eternal Struggle, and one mailing list with an online archive. The Succubus Club http://www.succubusclub.net http://vampire.tne.net.au/trades The Communal Haven http://www.melancholy.org/vtes/communal_haven/ VTES_Trading http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VTES_Trading/ Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com/cardtrader.htm -- all the trading and buying links http://www.TheLasombra.com/boards.htm -- all the forum / message board links -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

"The Lasombra" <thela...@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:db8d760f45e3a9a5d4b...@mygate.mailgate.org... > "AT" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:3c3889ac$0$26072$3b21...@news.univie.ac.at... > > > >>Maybe we should change the charter to include trading.>> > > > > There isn't any need for this. > > > i think there is need for this. many people would like to include trading. > > There are multiple places for them to do this. > rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad is not the appropriate place. > there are at least some people who think this is the right place to post trades what makes you more right than me > > > i and many others find the trading posts very usefull (more usefull than 60% > > of the stuff that is written here) and hopefully we will see more of them in > > the future > > I have serious doubts about your definition of "very usefull" as we > usually see fewer than 10 trading posts per month. If you aren't looking > for the content of this newsgroup, try the other message boards for this game > (follow the links in my signature). > i like the content of this newsgroup if not i would not read it, but a lot of post that are, when taking the charter word by word, off topic, are accepted because they are endorsed by the inner circle of this newsgroup. trade posts are not because the IC considers them of topic. > Anyone serious about Trading will be visting one or more of > the following locations: > > i know these sites and they are usefull too but i still like to see trade posts in this newsgroup. AT

AT wrote: > > "The Lasombra" <thela...@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > There are multiple places for them to do this. > > rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad is not the appropriate place. > > > there are at least some people who think this is the right place to post > trades what makes you more right than me Do you *not* read the thread the you interject yourself in so forcefully?!? A newsgroup charter is the place where the topic of a given newsgroup is spelled out. The charter for *this* newsgroup explicitly states that posts soliciting card trades are *not* part of this newsgroup's discussion topics. How much much more right can Jeff be? > i like the content of this newsgroup if not i would not read it, but a lot > of post that are, when taking the charter word by word, off topic, > are accepted because they are endorsed by the inner circle of this > newsgroup. trade posts are not because the IC considers them of topic. What "inner circle" are you talking about? There is no "inner circle" here. There may be posters whose opinions carry more weight with the population of the newsgroup than others, I suppose. Ultimately, that comes from being known for posting intelligent comments, a good habit to aspire to. But that's beside the point. If you find a post to be "off-topic" and it's causing you a problem, you have as much right as anyone else to object to it. Personally, I don't make a point of objecting to every single off-topic post, myself. It's not necessary and it wouldn't contribute anything positive to the group. I do get involved in discussion threads where someone loudly proclaims their right and duty to post stuff that is off-topic because I disagree vehemently with such attitudes. If I was worried that something was getting too pervasive, such as the trading posts going on just after Bloodlines came out, I might start raising a fuss. But don't confuse lack of reaction with approval. If something you think is off-topic which doesn't draw a response, it either means people don't think it's off-topic or might also mean it's not important enough to object to. Yet. > i know these sites and they are useful too but i still like to see trade > posts in this newsgroup. That may be. But unfortunately, you missed your chance to express that preference at a meaningful time by about 7 1/2 years. I take it you also weren't present when the events leading up to the writing of that newsgroup charter occurred. Which means you also didn't have the joy of living in a newsgroup where people were constantly trying to trade by Usenet post. Fred

"Frederick Scott" <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3C38C7DF...@removethis.com... > AT wrote: > > > > "The Lasombra" <thela...@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > > There are multiple places for them to do this. > > > rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad is not the appropriate place. > > > > > there are at least some people who think this is the right place to post > > trades what makes you more right than me > > Do you *not* read the thread the you interject yourself in so forcefully?!? > A newsgroup charter is the place where the topic of a given newsgroup is > spelled out. The charter for *this* newsgroup explicitly states that posts > soliciting card trades are *not* part of this newsgroup's discussion topics. > How much much more right can Jeff be? i do read the threat and know that by the charter trades are not allowed in this group, but the charter is 7 years old and a charter could be changed. and that was what someone was suggesting. >> > i like the content of this newsgroup if not i would not read it, but a lot > > of post that are, when taking the charter word by word, off topic, > > are accepted because they are endorsed by the inner circle of this > > newsgroup. trade posts are not because the IC considers them of topic. > > What "inner circle" are you talking about? There is no "inner circle" here. > There may be posters whose opinions carry more weight with the population of > the newsgroup than others, I suppose. Ultimately, that comes from being > known for posting intelligent comments, a good habit to aspire to. > Well some people think that their word counts more than that of others. the act like they are the IC of this newsgroup. i am not writing any names but most people know who i mean. > > That may be. But unfortunately, you missed your chance to express that > preference at a meaningful time by about 7 1/2 years. so am i not allowed to express it now. is this charter sisled in stone? > I take it you also > weren't present when the events leading up to the writing of that newsgroup > charter occurred. Which means you also didn't have the joy of living in a > newsgroup where people were constantly trying to trade by Usenet post. i did not encounter these events in those dark times. but after a new expansion is shipped it is understandable that some people post trade offers and that should be accepted. AT > > Fred

In message <3c38ba7e$0$30724$3b21...@news.univie.ac.at>, "AT" <nos...@nospam.com> mumbled something about: >"The Lasombra" <thela...@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >news:db8d760f45e3a9a5d4b...@mygate.mailgate.org... >> There are multiple places for them to do this. >> rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad is not the appropriate place. >> >there are at least some people who think this is the right place to post >trades And they're wrong. You can find "some people" who think anything. This doesn't make them right. >what makes you more right than me Besides that you're a damned idiot, and you choose to disagree with things solely for the sake of disagreeing, making you the USENET equivalent of a five-year old child kicking the back of a car seat? The fact that there are other places to go whose SOLE purpose is to facilitate trades, and therefore will be much more effective than random shotgun blasts onto rgtcj, is one such reason, and the only reason anyone would need. >> I have serious doubts about your definition of "very usefull" as we >> usually see fewer than 10 trading posts per month. If you aren't looking >> for the content of this newsgroup, try the other message boards for this >game >> (follow the links in my signature). >> >i like the content of this newsgroup if not i would not read it, but a lot >of post that are, when taking the charter word by word, off topic, >are accepted because they are endorsed by the inner circle of this >newsgroup. trade posts are not because the IC considers them of topic. And here you go babbling about an "inner circle" again. Face it, Stefan. There is no great rgtcj conspiracy to be mean to some users, and nice to other users. Some things really are common sense... if you weren't born in a barn or lived your entire life in a bubble. It's called courtesy. And if you act like an idiot, expect to be treated like an idiot. >i know these sites and they are usefull too but i still like to see trade >posts in this newsgroup. Just because you like something doesn't mean it should happen. -- "Now remember, class; rape BEFORE you pillage."

AT wrote: > > "Frederick Scott" <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> schrieb im > > A newsgroup charter is the place where the topic of a given newsgroup is > > spelled out. The charter for *this* newsgroup explicitly states that > > posts soliciting card trades are *not* part of this newsgroup's discussion > > topics. How much much more right can Jeff be? > > i do read the threat and know that by the charter trades are not allowed in > this group, but the charter is 7 years old and a charter could be changed. > and that was what someone was suggesting. OK, then. Go through the process of changing it and if you succeed, then you can claim to be right and Jeff will have to agree with you. Until then, he's right and you're wrong. > > What "inner circle" are you talking about? There is no "inner circle" > > here. There may be posters whose opinions carry more weight with the > > population of the newsgroup than others, I suppose. Ultimately, that > > comes from being known for posting intelligent comments, a good habit to > > aspire to. > > Well some people think that their word counts more than that of others. the > act like they are the IC of this newsgroup. i am not writing any names but > most people know who i mean. No, no one here knows what you mean. This is your conjecture and no one else's. In the end, it doesn't matter who thinks they're more important than anyone else. Only who has the better reasoning for their arguments. > > That may be. But unfortunately, you missed your chance to express that > > preference at a meaningful time by about 7 1/2 years. > > so am i not allowed to express it now. is this charter sisled in stone? I've stated elsewhere I don't know exactly what's required to change a charter. Andrew claims it's essentially the same process as, for instance, creating a newsgroup and what I've heard elsewhere in past was something to that effect. Again, if this is really that meaningful to you, why don't you go research it and find out? Last I looked, it was covered in the rotating autoposts in news.announce.newusers. If not there, then probably there would be a FAQ in news.announce.newgroups which talks about how to do it. One thing I do know is that it's insufficient to change the charter by simply being some yahoo who wants to grouse that the charter doesn't say what he wants it to say. > > I take it you also weren't present when the events leading up to the > > writing of that newsgroup charter occurred. Which means you also didn't > > have the joy of living in a newsgroup where people were constantly trying > > to trade by Usenet post. > > i did not encounter these events in those dark times. but after a new > expansion is shipped it is understandable that some people post trade offers > and that should be accepted. I accept that some people will *want* to. I just disagree that they should be able to do so. Fred

AT wrote: >>i think there is need for this. many people would like to include trading.>> A) the charter of this group states no trading, B) there are many, many other pre-existing places to trade cards, and C) trade lists would make it much harder to read this list. >>ever looked at this newsgroup (marketplace misc) it is useless.>> It seems useless because people don't use it. If everyone here who wanted to trade VTES cards posted trade lists on marketplace.misc, it wouldn't seem useless, now would it? There is a perfectly good newsgroup that exists *specifically* to trade things like VTES cards. It is a very clean newsgroup (i.e. very little spam--98% of the posts are card trade/sales related), and would work just fine if people decided to use it. Simply because folks are lazy and don't want to make a trip over to a second newsgroup to look for and post trades does not mean that the group is useless. That, and there are still two (if not three) good web based trade sites, and a trade listserve. >>so all the stuff concerning the rpg should be banned to?!>> If it doesn't pertain in some way to the card game, yes. Luckily for those interested, it isn't that difficult to tie discussion of the RPG to VTES. >>i and many others find the trading posts very usefull (more usefull than 60% of the stuff that is written here) and hopefully we will see more of them in the future>> Again, they are not allowed. If you wish to change the charter, please go through the appropriate channels and do so. It isn't a good idea, however, as it would greatly compromise the newsgroup as a forum for discussion. [ quoted text not captured ]

AT wrote: >>i do read the threat and know that by the charter trades are not allowed in this group, but the charter is 7 years old and a charter could be changed. and that was what someone was suggesting.>> Yes, the charter could be changed. There are specific ways to do this. If you want to change the charter, please feel free to start the ball rolling. It is, however, a bad idea, and it seems likely that such a proposal wouldn't get much support. >>so am i not allowed to express it now. is this charter sisled in stone?>> You are welcome to express an opinion. You are not welcome to disregard the charter of the group. If you don't like the charter, you are welcome to begin the process of changing it. >> i did not encounter these events in those dark times. but after a new expansion is shipped it is understandable that some people post trade offers and that should be accepted.>> No, it should not. This group does not permit trade posts. It also does not permit posts that discuss Brittany Spears or the New York Yankees rather than VTES. If newsgroups don't have rules, they cease to be valuable as forums for discussion. There are 4 or 5 easily accessable forums that exist specifically to trade cards. There is no need to bring them here. [ quoted text not captured ]

pd...@aol.comANTISPAM (Peter D Bakija) wrote in message news:<20020106113402...@mb-mn.aol.com>... > Andrew wrote: > >>And, of course, we see that discussion of the trading card game "Vampire: The > Eternal Struggle" is off-topic too. That belongs in > rec.games.trading-cards.misc whose charter is:>> > > Oh, Andrew. > > Why are you still here? You don't like this game. You don't play this game. You > don't like the basic mechanics. You don't like the game play. You don't like > the art. You don't like a basic goals. You don't like this game. > > Yet here you still are, posting trolling drivel like the above quoted text. > Why? Why? Why? > > Funny thing is; the only tournament I've seen Mr Davidson at was the final nights pre-release where he left after getting his cards and still managed to get 3 or 4 complaints about his conduct. Odd really that the man still feels qualified to post long and involved diatribes about "the way the game is played at tournaments". Oh, I tell a lie, I hear that he was lurking at GenCon somewhere. Maybe the Shadowfist tourney finished early or something. I think he just does it to annoy people. Dunno why he'd want to, but hey.... Tony Literary Thug

(All of it snipped) First, the AT's notion that trading posts are equally as off-topic as RPG (Vamp related) posts is faulty because the charter continually referenced in this discussion specifically BANS trading posts. Without that specific ban, it would be considered on-topic, as trading Jyhad cards relates to Jyhad. Vamp related RPG posts pertains to Jyhad (especially since WW took the game back, they've inserted quite a bit of the new WoD into the game, so brushing us up on what's happening in the WoD will help us predict what changes we can expect in OUR game) is on-topic, and since they are not specifically barred by said charter, they are OK. Second, on the topic of a Newsgroup inner circle, you are all right. There are quite a few posters who get "more of a benefit of a doubt" than others. Not to single anyone out, but if Peter were to make one statement and AT were to make the same statement, no matter how non-sensical the statement was people would try to find the hidden meaning in what Peter wrote and flame AT for it. Now you can say that this is because Peter has a long history of reasoned posts, or you can blame it on an "Old Boy Network", or find another reason for it. But it does exist, in fact it must exist. To expect that people would have been writing back and forth to each other (or met each other at numerous events) over the past years and NOT formed an opinion, whether complementary or not, is just plain silly. Matt

> Second, on the topic of a Newsgroup inner circle, you are all right. > There are quite a few posters who get "more of a benefit of a doubt" > than others. Not to single anyone out, but if Peter were to make one > statement and AT were to make the same statement, no matter how > non-sensical the statement was people would try to find the hidden > meaning in what Peter wrote and flame AT for it. I usually don't reply to either Stefan or Peter, but I (personally) find that Peter says all kind of Bunkus that makes me think "boy, is he full of it." But his arguing style is to reply and reply to wear you down, so I know it's not (usually) worth getting into. =) > Now you can say that > this is because Peter has a long history of reasoned posts, or you can > blame it on an "Old Boy Network", or find another reason for it. But > it does exist, in fact it must exist. To expect that people would have > been writing back and forth to each other (or met each other at > numerous events) over the past years and NOT formed an opinion, > whether complementary or not, is just plain silly. "Inner Circle" would seem to imply some kind of power, or string pulling, or private machinations. All of which is crap, since you can read all the posts for themselves. The fact that a group of mostly like-minded posters get "more of the benefit of the doubt" is easily explained by the fact that they think logically, and so come to many of the same conclusions, and all have the same disagreements with baseless arguments. Occam's razor doesn't see the need a conspiracy for a group to disagree with an individual, or even many individuals. The far simpler explanation puts the onus on the one, not the many. -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta

Pat wrote: >>I usually don't reply to either Stefan or Peter, but I (personally) find that Peter says all kind of Bunkus that makes me think "boy, is he full of it." But his arguing style is to reply and reply to wear you down, so I know it's not (usually) worth getting into. =)>> Bunkus? That was totally uncalled for. I've never posted unkind things about/towards/or at you. I save that for Andrew. Ya know, I'd just reply with "bite me" over and over again, but I clearly have already worn down your resolve. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Andrew S. Davidson" wrote: > > Changing the charter is non-trivial - it's effectively the same > process as any newsgroup change - a RFD and CFV. Actually it is of no consequence. Newgroups belong to the people to use them. So unless there is a controlling authority that not only can, but will, eliminate, delete, or stop posts that fail to meet the original charter, then that charter is worthless. As a community, the newsgroup here tends to allow limited trading posts, and if the greater sum of the people in this newsgroup all want to turn this into the jyhad marketplace, well then they can, and there is little or nothing that can be done to prevent it. Raille

Peter D Bakija wrote: > > Lasse wrote: > >>Maybe we should change the charter to include trading.>> > > There isn't any need for this. There is an existing trade list > (rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc) that specifically exists to > facilitate this; there are multiple other trading arenas (two or three trade > sites on the web; at least 1 trading listserve). I don't know about you, but I've never even heard of 'misc', let along played a game of 'misc'! Is 'Misc' any good? Raille

Raille wrote: > > "Andrew S. Davidson" wrote: > > Changing the charter is non-trivial - it's effectively the same > > process as any newsgroup change - a RFD and CFV. > > Actually it is of no consequence. Newgroups belong to the people to use > them. So unless there is a controlling authority that not only can, but > will, eliminate, delete, or stop posts that fail to meet the original > charter, then that charter is worthless. There is more than one person in the Magic newsgroups who frequently claims that his complaints to the service providers of transgressors results in the loss of their accounts. I don't know if it happens as often as they claim it does (my experience with sysadmins is that they hate to deal with such issues and avoid them like rotten fish however they can), but I imagine it happens once in a while. However, your implied point is well-taken. *IF* no one cares about the newsgroup charter, it becomes suitable mainly for wrapping fish. However, my experience is that people tend to respect these things and unless it has very little support, attempting to wantonly and repeatedly violate it will only result in huge flame-wars. People can get very annoyed if they think you're "cheating" to get your way. > As a community, the newsgroup here tends to allow limited trading posts, Correction: the "community" allows nothing. It just doesn't react to sporadic nuisances, which seems a healthy enough behavior to me. Try challenging it head on, however, and you may find yourself in a different situation. > and if the greater sum of the people in this newsgroup all want to turn > this into the jyhad marketplace, well then they can, and there is little > or nothing that can be done to prevent it. Depends on how much you like angry flamewars and endless debate. Believe me, if you think the community here wants a different charter, it is *much* *much* better to do it the right way. Then we can put the issue behind us after a genial discussion and vote have taken place. Fred

I agree with all your points. I was mearly adding the fact that in some cases, the charter is useless. I was only pointing out to the 'etched in stone' crowd that there is a lot of variation allow within the newgroups. I would rather have a marketplace.jyhad or vtes for official trading posts. Raille

"The Nosferatu Stuff" <roans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<a19qip$p7h4f$1...@ID-125246.news.dfncis.de>... > > Actually claiming true ignorance to news group stuff, why is it still > rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad? As there are no more 'jyhad' cards printed, > fewer and fewer references to the game as 'jyhad' isn't it more and more > likely that new players will not be able to locate this semi-official news > group because its actually not called rec.games.trading-cards.vtes? > I play Jyhad, not V:TES, although I do seem to have all of these cards with misprinted backs gumming up my collection.

[ quoted text not captured ] There is also little else that can be done to stem any off-topic posts here (dealing with the fall of Rome, Tom Cruise's next movie, or what have you) that cannot be done to stem off-topic posts like posts that belong in marketplace. You don't nee the "greater sum" to accomplish this - just a few people who choose to ignore netiquette. The USENET is built on the assumption that people will behave themselves - there is no controlling authority (except for the few moderated newsgroups). As the net grows, though, you get a greater percentage of people who don't know how to behave themselves. Eventually leading to the oft-forecast "end of USENET". [ quoted text not captured ]

pd...@aol.comANTISPAM (Peter D Bakija) wrote in message news:<20020106113402...@mb-mn.aol.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Amen. Thank yourself lucky you've never met the guy (I assume). You think he's irritating on the NG.... You ain't seen nothing! :) Glad to hear there's a few people out there with the same opinion of Mr S. Davidson as I have. However, coming back to the original post (kinda), I have, and always will, referred to VTES as Jyhad. Was much cooler back then too - when Spawning Pool was a minion card, 4th Tradition was a master and we had Renagade Garous. We just don't get mistakes like that any more (except the HUGE one on the Paris Opera House - it's pool not blood!!!) Marty

In message <3C3B1945...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> mumbled something about: >As the net grows, though, you get a greater percentage of people who >don't >know how to behave themselves. Eventually leading to the oft-forecast >"end of USENET". STANDARDIZED USENET REPLY FORM I took exception to your recent _X_ post to ______r.g.t-c.j._______. (newsgroup) ___ email [most of form snipped -- everyone's seen it before] Your attention is drawn to the fact that: _X_ you predicted the "Immanent Death of the Net[tm]". (Mark only if above checked) _X_ *Without* adding "<form of representation> at 11". =) =) =) =) -- "I am NOT illiterate -- my parents were married!"

On 1/7/02 4:36 PM, "Peter D Bakija" <pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> wrote: >>> I usually don't reply to either Stefan or Peter, but I (personally) find > that Peter says all kind of Bunkus that makes me think "boy, is he full of > it." But his arguing style is to reply and reply to wear you down, so I > know it's not (usually) worth getting into. =)>> > > Bunkus? That was totally uncalled for. I've never posted unkind things > about/towards/or at you. I save that for Andrew. Huh? Whether or not I think what you're saying (logically) is just Plain Wrong has nothing to do with whether or not you've said unkind things about me or I've said them about you. You'll just say some things when you're arguing that I think either "He's crazy," or "Oh, come on, Peter, you know better than THAT." Just plain disagreeing isn't being "unkind," right? We can agree on that, at least? > Ya know, I'd just reply with "bite me" over and over again, but I clearly have > already worn down your resolve. You forgot the smiley. Or I did. Whatever. Of vaguely more topical interest: On 1/8/02 10:30 PM, "Peter D Bakija" <pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> wrote: > It is just as easy to get folks to use the marketplace.misc group as it would > be to get them to use a marketplace.vtes group. And you don't need to make a > new newsgroup. Lemme hop in here and concur. Similar to alt.games.jyhad, which is actually an even BETTER place for trading posts, really, for all the traffic it gets. (Consisting of a bit of spam, and Lasombra and Leggy dropping in) If everyone refuses to stay on topic here, maybe at least the trading posts can wander over there. Do "alt"s have charters, even? [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <B8629C35.A953%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>, Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> mumbled something about: > Lemme hop in here and concur. Similar to alt.games.jyhad, which is >actually an even BETTER place for trading posts, really, for all the traffic >it gets. (Consisting of a bit of spam, and Lasombra and Leggy dropping in) >If everyone refuses to stay on topic here, maybe at least the trading posts >can wander over there. Do "alt"s have charters, even? alt.* groups don't generally have a charter. It's normally possible to create an alt.* group by simply figuring out how to issue a newgroup command/message. This happens quite a bit, as can be seen by the numerous alt.personal.name.here.sucks.sucks.sucks groups that have sprung up over the years. The alt.* hierarchy is liberally pruned by most news servers, and what isn't pruned generally isn't propagated very widely, due to the tendency of alt.* groups to be complete crap. In general, if you want a newsgroup that will hit all news servers, you need it in the rec.* hierarchy -- and it is a pain to get a new group created in rec.*, always has been, and is even more so these days. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <i1kr3uo4673kf5a9d...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes: >In general, if you want a newsgroup that will hit all news servers, you >need it in the rec.* hierarchy -- and it is a pain to get a new group >created in rec.*, always has been, and is even more so these days. The big-8 in general will do fine - though groups regarding Jyhad will almost certainly be in rec.* Other hierarchies do well for such matters too, who have taken the time to set up control mechanisms, group establishment procedures, PGP keys for signing creation messages and so on. alt.* is not one of them. -- James Coupe You remind me of the babe. What babe? PGP 0x5D623D5D The babe with the power. What power? EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Power of voodoo. Who do? 13D7E668C3695D623D5D You do. Do what? Remind me of the babe.

Pat wrote: >>You'll just say some things when you're arguing that I think either "He's crazy," or "Oh, come on, Peter, you know better than THAT.">> People talk out of their ass all the time here. What is the point of saying something if you aren't going to be confident about it? >>Just plain disagreeing isn't being "unkind," right? We can agree on that, at least?>> I have no problem at all with people disagreeing with me or calling me wrong--that is why I am here. If you think I am a talking out of my ass, point out why you think so or completely ignore me, either is just fine. I do take issue with random, out of nowhere, completely unjustified general jabs at me. Heck, I wasn't even part of that particular discussion--I didn't bring myself up in that context. >>You forgot the smiley. Or I did. Whatever.>> Nah, there was one in there. I left one out, 'cause, well, I thought it was pretty funny anyways. >>Lemme hop in here and concur. Similar to alt.games.jyhad, which is actually an even BETTER place for trading posts, really, for all the traffic it gets. (Consisting of a bit of spam, and Lasombra and Leggy dropping in) If everyone refuses to stay on topic here, maybe at least the trading posts can wander over there. Do "alt"s have charters, even?>> alt.games.jyhad would be a fine place to trade, I figure, although I don't know if it is gonna show up on every newsreader, as it doesn't show up on mine (which isn't the AOL newsreader--I don't even know it if shows up there, as I have never checked). [ quoted text not captured ]