Friend of mine came up with this idea the other day. Probably wouldn't work,
and would probably be really hard to pull off, but I figured it was worth
some discussion.
Here's what you do:
1) Get Madness Network out, with voting Malkavs
2) Get Carlotta Giovanni out
3) Bleed the crap out of your prey, leaving one vamp untapped
4) Call a *Reversal of Fortune* vote out of turn at the end of your turn,
untap all your dudes, and bleed the crap out of your prey again. Use
Carlotta to go get the reversal and wait til the end of your turn, where you
use another malkav to call the reversal again... ...untap... etc.
Does this work with the erratta'd MNetwork?
[ quoted text not captured ]
MNetwork has not been errata'd. It works as printed. It has a ruling
regarding who can block the action to burn it (and a pair of corner-case
rulings/clarifications), but that is all.
But, with regards to the question: "Does this work?":
No. Madness network allows Malkavians to take action at the end of any
Methuselah's minion phase. Malkavians still cannot act at the end of your
turn (or anyone else's).
--
LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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In article <7frs45$dte$1...@nntp5.atl.mindspring.net>, Robert C Campbell Jr
<bj...@mindspring.com> writes
>1) Get Madness Network out, with voting Malkavs
Difficult, but possible.
>2) Get Carlotta Giovanni out
Expensive.
>3) Bleed the crap out of your prey, leaving one vamp untapped
Okay.... But votes AND bleed crap out of them = more difficult. Maybe
vote the crap out of them instead.
>4) Call a *Reversal of Fortune* vote out of turn at the end of your turn,
Not possible. Have to wait for another Methuselah's turn. And the end
of their minion phase, not the end of their turn.
>untap all your dudes, and bleed the crap out of your prey again.
Well, because of this, your prey gets to react and untap etc.
>Use
>Carlotta to go get the reversal
Expensive. Just put more of them in your deck.
>and wait til the end of your turn, where you
>use another malkav to call the reversal again
Well, you could call it in your turn. At least one other Methuselah
will have to have a go, though. Most likely your prey. Who will burn
your Madness Network if he's any sort of player.
--
James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England)
Vampire: Elder Kindred Network
http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.nethttp://www.obeah.demon.co.uk
Just gonna throw my opinion in real quick. Dump Carlota and put in more
reversals if you really wanna try the deck. She's only trading card for
card and she's really expensive to begin with at 7 capacity. Then drop the
bleed and keep it to the minimum Defense and vote deck. You NEED defense to
keep the madness network and you NEED votes to keep the bounce effect going.
You can burn blood through voting if need be. As for the remainder of the
deck and game, it all relies on your ability to oust player after player.
The deck becomes officially pointless when you get to fewer people as well,
so you need to win a few VPs early and use your vote to get a point or two
later to win. it's very difficult when you're trying to get so manything
things going on. Also, keep in mind that 2 reversals only equals 1 turns of
bouncing and your prey is still untapping and attempting to do stuff to eat
your network that's not a terribly great ratio if you've got to put
intercept in the deck to stop your prey as well as add vote and pool burn.
Vince
James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>1) Get Madness Network out, with voting Malkavs>
>Difficult, but possible.
Easy, but somewhat expensive (7 pool and more).
>>2) Get Carlotta Giovanni out>Expensive.
Forget her. Can't do much besides use her special.
>>3) Bleed the crap out of your prey, leaving one vamp untapped>
>Okay.... But votes AND bleed crap out of them = more difficult. Maybe
>vote the crap out of them instead.
Yeah, votes, they do more damage for less cards. Unfortunatly, you'll need
good cards to do it. Presence Malks are a must, and those are big.
>>4) Call a *Reversal of Fortune* vote out of turn at the end of your turn,>
>Not possible. Have to wait for another Methuselah's turn. And the end
>of their minion phase, not the end of their turn.
Reversal of Fortune? Now why didn't I think about it? James and the gang,
will you allow me to replace one card in my JOL 95 deck with this one? It's
just for the fun of it, honest!
>>untap all your dudes, and bleed the crap out of your prey again.>
>Well, because of this, your prey gets to react and untap etc.
With votes, you can instead put an ally as your prey and attack someone
else. You then don't mind if the player on your left gets to play.
>>Use
>>Carlotta to go get the reversal>
>Expensive. Just put more of them in your deck.
Yep, more of the good cards. You basically need KRC (CA in JOL) to hurt
your enemies, Bewitching Oration to make your votes pass, and ....
The card you want to use for this little trick is Dramatic Upheaval (some
Kindred Restructure for some more fun). The trick is to constantly trade
places with an ally of yours in the game. So you get to do your turn,
leaving a minion untapped. Then your "prey" gets her turn (hope you are
reading this, Heather, I'm talking about you) and at the end of your minion
phase you call a DU to trade seats with her (her seat is nice and comfy).
It is thus your turn again.
On this turn you call votes to hurt everyone but you and your friend
(let's call her Heather, it's her name), until you have two untapped vamps.
One calls a Dramatic Upheaval to trade seats again with Heather ('cause
you aren't too sure about the seat anymore), and the other remains
untapped. Heather takes her turn, and then you call another Dramatic
Upheaval, to become her prey again (yep, her seat is better).
You keep this up as long as you must ('cause both seats have so much too
offer, in very different ways), until you can oust everyone (but you and
Heather) in one, MAJESTIC, MAGNIFICIENT vote.
At which point you concede to Heather, 'cause there is no way I can think
of to make this deck work otherwise. Even with Banishment and all. No
realistic way anyway. And if you pull it off by going solo, hats off to you
and you are King of Jyhad. But anyway, such a game would be a fluke.
>>and wait til the end of your turn, where you
>>use another malkav to call the reversal again
See the above. And go take a look at JOL 95, where this deck is really
going great, despite a huge error in the crypt. You need weenies with the
titled vamps, and I forgot to put some.
>Well, you could call it in your turn. At least one other Methuselah
>will have to have a go, though. Most likely your prey. Who will burn
>your Madness Network if he's any sort of player.
But not if she's Heather. You do have to convince someone on the game to
become known as Heather though. Good luck. Look for someone in need of one
or two VPs to get to the finals, or for someone with no hope (and who knows
it).
Again, take a look at JOL 95, my good friend Legbiter does a wonderful job
of moderating it and the state is full of comments on why things look
screwed (okay, my fault ;)
Leggy, I love you
(scene of me kissing his Ass-a-mite butt)
Bleu, still wondering why the walls are white and cushiony here. Comfy too.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Ok, fine, I'll reveal my little secret plan to take over the world:
Turn one: get out a cheap malk.
Turn two: play the madness network. Have your malk declare himself
Justicar. Get out another. Make it your prey's turn. At the end of
his minion phase, send your new toadie out to call dramatic upheaval.
Switch places with your prey.
Turn three: Gain more titles or some pool or whatever you need. Make it
your new prey's turn. At the end of his turn switch seats with him.
Repeat until you run out of cards, at which point you whould be so
horribly bloated from pool gain that you win by sheer force of... force.
This is a sounder plan than any offered on this thread to date for
several reasons.
1) No toadie required. They're hard to come by, so better not to plan
to have one.
2) Your predator never gets a turn. Not while he's your predator,
anyway.
3) Sure, your prey gets a turn, but he has no stake in doing anything to
you. He's got another guy who actually is bearing down on him, so why
waste any actions hurting innocent old you?
4) Other people get to play. This makes the deck much less funny,
admittedly, but makes them much less sad.
--
Steve Wampler
swam...@clarityconnect.com
“And then the clouds parted and God said,
I hate you, Alfalfa.”
-Alfalfa, The Little Rascals
> Ok, fine, I'll reveal my little secret plan to take over the world:
> Turn one: get out a cheap malk. Turn two: play the madness network. Have your
> malk declare himself Justicar. Get out another. Make it your prey's turn. At
> the end of his minion phase, send your new toadie out to call dramatic
> upheaval. Switch places with your prey. Turn three: Gain more titles or some
> pool or whatever you need. Make it your new prey's turn. At the end of his
> turn switch seats with him. Repeat until you run out of cards, at which point
> you whould be so
> horribly bloated from pool gain that you win by sheer force of... force.
>
> This is a sounder plan than any offered on this thread to date for several
> reasons.
> 1) No toadie required. They're hard to come by, so better not to plan to have
> one.
> 2) Your predator never gets a turn. Not while he's your predator, anyway.
> 3) Sure, your prey gets a turn, but he has no stake in doing anything to you.
> He's got another guy who actually is bearing down on him, so why waste any
> actions hurting innocent old you?
> 4) Other people get to play. This makes the deck much less funny, admittedly,
> but makes them much less sad.
Neato mosquito. Sounds like a fun idea. But will it work? Ahh. :-)I also like
the idea of using a Reversal of Fortunes/Millicent Smith combo. Nobody takes
risky actions except you, who take actions when it's not your turn. I can see
someone sacrificing a weenie to get rid of that though, so you'd need multiples.
p.
Would Smiling Jack work like I think he would with that deck? He'd be disgustingly
venomous. By the time your original predator got a turn, he'd have to pay 4 pool.
His next go around he'd have to pay 8!!
That's one situation where making yourself a target would be worth it.
p.
Patrick Harris wrote in message <37273171...@alpinetaxi.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
It would work that way, but it wouldn't be as cool as you think it is. Think
about it. If I'm the smilingjacker and you're the smilingjackee you take
more damage if you pay for it every turn instead of every four.
Good thought, though!
> It would work that way, but it wouldn't be as cool as you think it is. Think
> about it. If I'm the smilingjacker and you're the smilingjackee you take
> more damage if you pay for it every turn instead of every four.
>
> Good thought, though!
I still pay for it every time I start my turn, it's just that you get 4 turns to
add counters/blood to Jack before I get my next turn. I'd pay one on my first
turn, then add 4 for each of my next turns. Every time you get your untap
phase, which would be after every single player's turn, you'd add another
counter to Jack. If you manage to protect it for two full rounds, now we're all
into pool loss that will keep us from bringing out more minions.
I think that might also be worth it. If you arrange to have Jack out on your
first turn (by putting a good amount in there) you can play it and have it go
around the whole table probably twice before anyone is able to get a good shot
at destroying it. And by that time you should have at least a second minion out
to call votes and help block. If you build, as Steve described, a pool-gain
deck, then the loss from paying for Jack shouldn't be that big of a problem.
Say I'm the first to get hit, your original prey - 1 pool. I manage to get a
small minion out on my turn. My next turn comes around - 5 more pool. I try to
get rid of Jack. You block because you have a Homunculus untap and are ready
for me. It goes around again? If so, I lose another 9 pool. That's 15 by my
3rd turn. If you play against anyone with big vampires, you don't even have to
use the blood to untap as they likely don't have a minion out until the end of
their 2nd turn.
I think the only things you need to be careful of, aside from the obvious fact
that you become a HUGE target, are that you're likely to weaken someone to the
point that their predator can take them out for the VP, and a weenie horde deck
will get past you and take Jack out.
There still may be an error in my thinking here, but I don't think it's the
cost.
p.
Okay, here's the Jack problem.
Let's say I've got a Smiling Jack/Musical Chairs deck. Let's also
assume that no one attempts to burn Jack. I'm in a tournament,
and the original seating arrangement is:
John (me)
Tom
Dick
Harry
Sue
I played Jack last turn, and at the start of my turn, I pay for Jack. I
take my turn, then Tom does, paying one pool _or_blood_. Then,
I step in front of him, take my turn, and do it again. After one whole
super-round of this, (i.e. I'm back to my original seat) here's the
new situation:
John -- Spent 4 pool on Jack
Tom -- Spent 1 pool/blood on Jack
Dick -- Spent 2 pool/blood on Jack
Harry -- Spent 3 pool/blood on Jack
Sue -- Spent 4 pool/blood on Jack
Now, if we go through the same thing for another super-round, then
at the start of my next turn in my original position:
John -- Spent 8 pool on Jack
Tom -- Spent 6 pool/blood on Jack
Dick -- Spent 8 pool/blood on Jack
Harry -- Spent 10 pool/blood on Jack
Sue -- Spent 12 pool/blood on Jack
By now, someone should be dying. Unfortunately, it's most likely me.
Remember that vampires' blood satisfies Jack just as much as
Methuselahs' pool. Now, yes, with each super-round the benefits
become more and more mine, but if no one else at the table
realizes this by now, then they have no right to their pool anyway.
Heck, if someone else had a combat deck with Taste, he'd LOVE
Smiling Jack by now. Then he'd burn it, since no other vampire has
blood left for him to taste.
There's a much better return on your investment if the other players
take more turns. I'd play up the other aspects of the Musical Chairs
deck instead of Smiling Jack. The big one, of course, being
no predator.
Incidentally, I'd thought about designing one of these decks, too,
called "Swing Yer Partner!" but using Kindred Restructure instead
of Dramatic Upheaval, and putting on my best square dance caller
voice while I play. Getting enough princes would be tough, but the
deck would be so much more fun. You'd also get better deals with
other players for better positioning, too.
John Baker
> I played Jack last turn, and at the start of my turn, I pay for Jack. I
> take my turn, then Tom does, paying one pool _or_blood_. Then, I step in
> front of him, take my turn, and do it again. After one whole super-round
> of this, (i.e. I'm back to my original seat) here's the new situation:
>
> John -- Spent 4 pool on Jack
> Tom -- Spent 1 pool/blood on Jack
> Dick -- Spent 2 pool/blood on Jack
> Harry -- Spent 3 pool/blood on Jack
> Sue -- Spent 4 pool/blood on Jack
>
> Now, if we go through the same thing for another super-round, then at the
> start of my next turn in my original position:
>
> John -- Spent 8 pool on Jack
> Tom -- Spent 6 pool/blood on Jack
> Dick -- Spent 8 pool/blood on Jack
> Harry -- Spent 10 pool/blood on Jack
> Sue -- Spent 12 pool/blood on Jack
>
> By now, someone should be dying. Unfortunately, it's most likely me.
I was thinking Jack would be a good add-on to Steve's vote/pool-gain deck.
If you have the pool gain working for you, then paying for Jack, although a
heavy tax, shouldn't be that big a problem.
> Remember that vampires' blood satisfies Jack just as much as Methuselahs'
> pool. Now, yes, with each super-round the benefits become more and more
> mine, but if no one else at the table realizes this by now, then they
> have no right to their pool anyway.
Heheh. I agree about them having no right to their pool. But the nice
thing about this is that if you do manage to get Jack out on your first
turn, you might just get two full rounds without anyone doing anything
about it. If a Meth. uses vamps bigger than 4 capacity, you've got no
worries from him until the end of his second turn anyway, so he'll be
paying twice whether he likes it or not. If you run into weenies you could
be in trouble though. You should, with 4 extra turns, be able to get some
blockers out though. The hard part would be getting that pool gain working
early. Also, if you run into a Sudden Reversal it shuts down as well. I
think this can only work if you get it in early. Definitely risky and
delicate, but you're the king if you get the Smiling Jack juggernaut
rolling.
I had forgotten about Jack being paid for with pool or blood. I don't
think that will matter much if you get him out early though, as there are
no minions from which to remove blood except weenies, and if they're
hunting next round they can't try and get rid of Jack.
> Heck, if someone else had a combat deck with Taste, he'd LOVE Smiling
> Jack by now. Then he'd burn it, since no other vampire has blood left for
> him to taste.
The problem for the combat decks is that they are paying as well. They
really don't want to remove blood from their minions, so it's going to be
coming from the Meth's pool. He can attack your minions, but you should
have a little of that OOT claws+Rotschreck business happening to snatch a
few minions (now I'm really starting to pile in tons of cards, aren't I).
Plus, except for weenie bruise decks, combat crypts tend to be a little
high in capacity. If they don't get the minions out to attack with, you
lay waste to the Meth. with Jack. Once they get a combat monger out there,
he's alone for a long while (if not for the rest of the game) because his
controller can't afford a combat buddy for him.
> There's a much better return on your investment if the other players take
> more turns. I'd play up the other aspects of the Musical Chairs deck
> instead of Smiling Jack. The big one, of course, being
> no predator.
That is definitely an option. I think my idea may require too many cards
anyway - cards to give you OOT/Dramatic Upheaval and the votes to pass
them/OOT combat cards (claws+Rotschreck)/pool gain cards/enough Jacks to
get them first round - and surely needs to be refined. It's quite a
delicate ploy, and can be spoiled easily. The Smiling Jack idea doesn't
necessarily make it too risky, as the deck should still be *decent* without
that part functioning. I just think that if one could pull that part off
it would be amazing to see. The lack of cards to try and build it is
killing me. :-)
> Incidentally, I'd thought about designing one of these decks, too, called
> "Swing Yer Partner!" but using Kindred Restructure instead of Dramatic
> Upheaval, and putting on my best square dance caller voice while I play.
> Getting enough princes would be tough, but the deck would be so much more
> fun. You'd also get better deals with other players for better
> positioning, too.
It would be hard to get enough Princes, but I think the same goes for
Steve's current deck idea. He's still having to call Praxis Seizures for
every minion he brings out to get the voting power needed. I think either
vote (DU or KR) would work, since they're all going to be Princes/Justicars
anyway. KR might be better in that you could work those deals you
mentioned.
p.
Steve Wampler <swam...@clarityconnect.com> wrote:
>Ok, fine, I'll reveal my little secret plan to take over the world:
>Turn one: get out a cheap malk.
>Turn two: play the madness network. Have your malk declare himself
>Justicar. Get out another. Make it your prey's turn. At the end of
You thus have two votes for, and possibly two against. Always count on
someone playing a voting deck, with a PA in hand. He may be your predator
or prey, which means instant vote against. Someone else either got a PA too
or the edge.
>his minion phase, send your new toadie out to call dramatic upheaval.
>Switch places with your prey.
>Turn three: Gain more titles or some pool or whatever you need. Make it
>your new prey's turn. At the end of his turn switch seats with him.
>Repeat until you run out of cards, at which point you whould be so
>horribly bloated from pool gain that you win by sheer force of... force.
With those voters, you should rather call damaging votes like CA or KRC,
'cause there is no other thing you can do. The deck simply won't work if
you put in enough bleed to oust a few preys. Votes. Plain and simple.
>This is a sounder plan than any offered on this thread to date for
>several reasons.
>1) No toadie required. They're hard to come by, so better not to plan
>to have one.
>2) Your predator never gets a turn. Not while he's your predator,
>anyway.
First time you do the trick, you get one guy with enough intelligence to
blow up the network (Hi Jaysen!). The second time you do the trick, you get
almost all the other meths on your back. If you still have voting
superiority by then, you are the leading candidate for Bum's Rushes.
>3) Sure, your prey gets a turn, but he has no stake in doing anything to
>you. He's got another guy who actually is bearing down on him, so why
>waste any actions hurting innocent old you?
Because the guy behind him only comes once. You come back often. And think
of it, if the trick works each time, you will become his predator again.
And you will be a lot more developped then the one who only played once
each turn around the table. A more dangerous predator, I'd say.
>4) Other people get to play. This makes the deck much less funny,
>admittedly, but makes them much less sad.
On that point, I must agree. However, they'll still be angry.
Bleu