rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

Damage Prevention Sequencing

5 messages from 3 participants · 27 September 1999 – 29 September 1999
original thread on Google Groups

Raille

I took a liberty of inserting the transfer of damage from the strike effects to the damage resolution stage. As such I renumbered your (LSJ's) additions to keep continuity. 6.4.6 Damage Resolution. 6.4.6.1 Damage resolution has three steps: damage allocation, prevent damage and heal damage. 6.4.6.2 Damage allocation. 6.4.6.2.1 Bring forward all normal and agravated damage from the resolve strike step of the combat phase. --- REFERENCE X.X.X Play/produce some damage-dealing effect (amount of damage is calculated at this time). X.X.X.1 Apply damage (all damage from other, simultaneous, effects is applied here before moving to the next step). X.X.X.2 Resolve Damage (see 6.4.6) ___ 6.4.6.3 Prevent Damage 6.4.6.3.1 The minion taking damage can play damage prevention cards if he is able to do so. These damage prevention cards are played one at a time until all damage is prevented or the minion chooses not to play any further cards. [Shouldn't mention Direct Intervention here unless you mention it wherever (minion) cards are played. As always your correct. I mentioned it only for the reference.] 6.4.6.3.2 Damage prevention cards may be selectively used to prevent aggravated damage before non-aggravated damage. 6.4.6.3.3 Only Minions can prevent damage. Damage to retainers cannot be prevented. 6.4.6.4 Heal damage 6.4.6.4.1. For each point of non-aggravated damage inflicted on a vampire, burn one blood to heal that damage. 6.4.6.4.1.1 A vampire may burn ALL of his blood to heal if needed, and doing so does not have any other negative effects on the vampire. 6.4.6.4.1.2 If a vampire cannot heal all the damage, having taken more damge than there was blood to heal, blood is burned to heal what damage can be healed. The rest is unhealed. (Unhealed damage causes a vampire to go to torpor after damage resolution.) 6.4.6.4.2 Aggravated damage is damage that a vampire cannot heal. 6.4.6.4.2.1 Since it cannot be healed, aggravated damage causes a vampire to go to torpor after damage resolution. 6.4.6.4.2.2 Aggravated damage done to a wounded vampire can burn the vampire outright. 6.4.6.4.2.2.1 For each point of aggravated damage successfully inflicted on a vampire who already has unhealed damage, he must burn a blood to prevent his destruction. 6.4.6.4.2.2.2 If he doesn't have enough blood, he is burned. 6.4.6.4.2.2.2.1 OR 6.4.3 Cards that are playable when a vampire/minion is burned can now be played. 6.4.5.4.2.2.3 A vampire burned by aggravated damage is not considered to have been diablerized and a blood hunt (6.5.6) cannot be called. 6.4.6.4.3 Each point of damage, aggravated or non-aggravated, inflicted on an ally or retainer causes the ally or retainer to lose one life counter. 6.4.6.4.3.1 An ally or retainer who loses all of his life counters is burned. 6.4.6.4.4 A vampire that has taken any damage that he has not healed goes to torpor. 6.4.6.4.4.1 OR 6.4.3 Card affecting a vampire going to torpor can now be played. Taste of Vitae can only be played after strike resolution - not after generic damage resolution. (Between 6.4.3.2 and whatever comes next: 6.4.3.3, 6.4.4, or "End of Round" (V.E of outline) if a combatant has been unreadied.) PF can be played at the end of a round. That is: during 6.4.4 (after both minions have decided not to play any further presses), or, if the round ends prematurely (due to a minion becoming unready, for instance), during the "unReady a minion" step. Probably there should be a step after 6.4.4 (like step V.E. of the outline) in which the end-of-round effects (like PF) can be played. I think that having gone over this in minutia, I can begin to see what the problem is. Damage resolution really is not in section 6.4.6 is it a sub step of 6.4.3 also section 6.4.5 might either be better served in a glossary or added into section 6.4.3 > Still with pulled fangs, (and you thought I'd get away from that!) you > generate a infinate loop. A easy manner to gain 1 VP in any game is to > put 60 PFs in a deck, then play them all in the first combat where you > inflict more damage that the other guy. Any +1 HD vampire will do. >That won't get you a VP - you still need to successfully withdraw (which >can't even begin until your next untap phase, after which you'd have to >avoid losing blood and losing pool and combat until your next untap phase. True, but if it is early in the game that would not be likely. Point was only added to highlight a few problems of the sequencing of combat and damage resolution. >Even so, how would that be different than just putting 60 Nosferatu >Putrescences in your 60 card deck and filling your crypt with Koko (and >playing all 60 NPs on Koko the first time she gets into combat)? <GRIN> Now thats an evil and funny thought! >See above. It goes after all strikes have been resolved (or all of them >that can be resolved), by necessity of the "inflicts more damage" >requirement. This has been ruled to be "at the end of the round" (without >regard to how the round is ending). So the playing of pulled fangs is effectively after damage resolution?? someplace like secion 6.4.3 sub paragraph 2c. That is after resolve strike, but before additional strikes. Were getting closer to the actual point or points where it can be played. Is you think Im beating this to death, Try thinking of itin these terms. "If I had to write a program to play jyhad, how would this work." So the actual point(s) where these effects can or cannot be played really needs a specific definition. Perhaps when I'm done the whole rules book will be renumbered in the actual manner of card sequencing. Raille.

LSJ

Raille wrote: > > I took a liberty of inserting the transfer of damage from the strike > effects to the damage resolution stage. As such I renumbered your > (LSJ's) additions to keep continuity. > > 6.4.6 Damage Resolution. > > 6.4.6.1 Damage resolution has three steps: damage allocation, prevent > damage and heal damage. > > 6.4.6.2 Damage allocation. > > 6.4.6.2.1 Bring forward all normal and agravated damage from the resolve > strike step of the combat phase. Allocating damage leads to damage resolution - it is not a part of it. Damage resolution has only two parts - prevention and heal/lose life/ prevent destruction (prevent and 'handle', that is). Most effects that produce (and allocate) damage are not played inside of damage resolution. > --- > REFERENCE > X.X.X Play/produce some damage-dealing effect (amount of damage is > calculated at this time). > X.X.X.1 Apply damage (all damage from other, simultaneous, effects > is applied here before moving to the next step). > X.X.X.2 Resolve Damage (see 6.4.6) > ___ > [snip] Quote [1] for reference later in this message: > > PF can be played at the end of a round. That is: during 6.4.4 (after > > both minions have decided not to play any further presses), or, if the > > round ends prematurely (due to a minion becoming unready, for instance), > > during the "unReady a minion" step. > > > Probably there should be a step after 6.4.4 (like step V.E. of the > > outline) in which the end-of-round effects (like PF) can be played. End quote [1] > I think that having gone over this in minutia, I can begin to see what > the problem is. Damage resolution really is not in section 6.4.6 is it > a sub step of 6.4.3 also section 6.4.5 might either be better served in > a glossary or added into section 6.4.3 It is a sub step of any damage - not just of 6.4.3 (Strike). The description of damage handling *is* in 6.4.6, though. That is independent of when the damage is allowed to occur. Combat is "sequenced" in the rules sections only by 6.4.2 Determine Range 6.4.3 Strike 6.4.4 Press (See 6.4.1) The rules are just rules - not necessarily sequential instructions. See the rules outline for the latter. > > > Still with pulled fangs, (and you thought I'd get away from that!) you > > > generate a infinate loop. A easy manner to gain 1 VP in any game is to > > > put 60 PFs in a deck, then play them all in the first combat where you > > > inflict more damage that the other guy. Any +1 HD vampire will do. > > >That won't get you a VP - you still need to successfully withdraw (which > >can't even begin until your next untap phase, after which you'd have to > >avoid losing blood and losing pool and combat until your next untap phase. > > True, but if it is early in the game that would not be likely. Point ? Not be "unlikely" you mean? Or I'm just not understanding you. Getting a +1 hand damage vampire into combat (against a non-S:CE, non-prevent, non-maneuver, non-dodge opponent - all necessary stipulations since you have no "useful" cards in the deck) would be difficult - why would such a combat-poor vampire block the action (necessary since you have no other way of getting into combat)? > was only added to highlight a few problems of the sequencing of combat > and damage resolution. It doesn't look like a problem nor a highlight of a problem. It seems to be just one of many examples of a series of events that can occur in the game. > >Even so, how would that be different than just putting 60 Nosferatu > >Putrescences in your 60 card deck and filling your crypt with Koko (and > >playing all 60 NPs on Koko the first time she gets into combat)? > > <GRIN> Now thats an evil and funny thought! > > >See above. It goes after all strikes have been resolved (or all of them > >that can be resolved), by necessity of the "inflicts more damage" > >requirement. This has been ruled to be "at the end of the round" (without > >regard to how the round is ending). > > So the playing of pulled fangs is effectively after damage resolution? Yes. Unless damage resolution includes the end of the round (like when damage goes unhealed) > someplace like secion 6.4.3 sub paragraph 2c. That is after resolve > strike, but before additional strikes. No. PF is played at the end of the round. See [1] above for details of where it would occur in the rulebook "sequence". Notably: PF cannot be played if any more strikes are pending or are possible in the current round. > Were getting closer to the actual point or points where it can be > played. > > Is you think Im beating this to death, Try thinking of itin these terms. > > "If I had to write a program to play jyhad, how would this work." > > So the actual point(s) where these effects can or cannot be played > really needs a specific definition. See [1] above. > Perhaps when I'm done the whole rules book will be renumbered in the > actual manner of card sequencing. See the outline, not the rules, for a better start on this sort of project. -- LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp

Raille

LSJ wrote: > The rules are just rules - not necessarily sequential instructions. > See the rules outline for the latter. Which outline? Is this something I've missed all these years? Is it something online for easy downloading? > > True, but if it is early in the game that would not be likely. Point > > ? Not be "unlikely" you mean? > Or I'm just not understanding you. I believe unlikely. > > So the playing of pulled fangs is effectively after damage resolution? > > Yes. Unless damage resolution includes the end of the round (like > when damage goes unhealed) > > > someplace like secion 6.4.3 sub paragraph 2c. That is after resolve > > strike, but before additional strikes. > > No. PF is played at the end of the round. See [1] above for details > of where it would occur in the rulebook "sequence". > See [1] above. > > > Perhaps when I'm done the whole rules book will be renumbered in the > > actual manner of card sequencing. > > See the outline, not the rules, for a better start on this sort of > project. You mentioned the outline twice. For the life of me I don't recall ever seeing an outline. Please elaborate. > -- > LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. > Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: > http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp Thanks Raille.

The Lasombra

In article <37F147...@mich.com>, rai...@mich.com wrote: > LSJ wrote: > > The rules are just rules - not necessarily sequential instructions. > > See the rules outline for the latter. > > Which outline? Is this something I've missed all these years? Is it > something online for easy downloading? Yes, he has posted the rules outline many times on the newsgroup. The most recent two are archived on my site, and reachable from: http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra Version 2.11 is there in HTML at: http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra/vcrr.htm and Version 3.1 is available as the post that LSJ first put on the newsgroup at: http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra/complete.txt Carpe Noctem. Lasombra http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

LSJ

Raille wrote: > > LSJ wrote: > > The rules are just rules - not necessarily sequential instructions. > > See the rules outline for the latter. > > Which outline? Is this something I've missed all these years? Is it > something online for easy downloading? [snip] > > See the outline, not the rules, for a better start on this sort of > > project. > > You mentioned the outline twice. For the life of me I don't recall ever > seeing an outline. Please elaborate. The rules outline is available on the Rulemonger page http://www.vekn.org/rulemonger/cgi-bin/rulemonger.cgi/rulesoutline [ quoted text not captured ]