Do action cards or cards in play, that allow you to take one of the 'standard actions' as outlined in 6.1 of the rulebook, add to or replace the default stealth noted in 6.1?
It's a very elementary question I know, but someone in my playgroup had made me doubt myself.:blush:
Examples:
The rulebook says an equip action is at a default +1 stealth.
So if a vampire plays Anonymous Freight, is it at +4 stealth (added to the default +1) or +3 (replacing the default +1)?
The rulebook says a political action is at a default +1 stealth.
So is the action to burn Legendary Vampire at +2 (add) or +1 (replace)?
Card texts:
Anonymous Freight
Type: Action
+3 stealth equip action. Requires a vampire.
Equip this vampire with a non-location equipment card from your hand (requirements and cost apply as normal).
Legendary Vampire
Type: Master
Cost: 2 pool
Unique master.
Put this card on a vampire with a capacity above 6 who was moved into your ready region during your last influence phase. This vampire gets +2 bleed and an additional 2 votes. Any vampire may call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action.
I would take it to mean add to whatever your current stealth is.
Equipping is +1, so just add another 3. I'd like to think they'd say "stealth is now +3" otherwise.
The same goes for the Bleed. Simply add +2 to whatever their bleed capability is.
There doesn't seem to be any rulings for the cards, but it's a simple enough question, that even I'm worried I might have missed something ;) In a game a s complicated to pick up at this, it's often the simple problems that cause the most fuss.
Anonymous Freight is a 3 stealth action. The political action to remove Legendary Vampire is at 1 stealth.
An equip action is 1 stealth by default, but Anonymous Freight is not a default equip action. It's a special equip action that specifies how much stealth it has - this is not in addition to the stealth given by a default equip because it's not a default equip and thus doesn't get that default stealth.
In general, an action that says how much stealth it gets doesn't add in any additional stealth that you can't see. Muaziz taking an Anonymous Freight action (or superior Magic of the Smith), would, of course, add her built-in +1 stealth.
> arkayn wrote:
> Anonymous Freight is a 3 stealth action. The political action to remove Legendary Vampire is at 1 stealth.
>
> An equip action is 1 stealth by default, but Anonymous Freight is not a default equip action. It's a special equip action that specifies how much stealth it has - this is not in addition to the stealth given by a default equip because it's not a default equip and thus doesn't get that default stealth.
>
> In general, an action that says how much stealth it gets doesn't add in any additional stealth that you can't see. Muaziz taking an Anonymous Freight action (or superior Magic of the Smith), would, of course, add her built-in +1 stealth.
Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, this means I've always been playing things wrong. :cry:
I always thought the whole point of the plus sign before each number was that it got added to whatever other values there might be, that any 'plusses' from anywhere count.
Just like Heathen Gray says, I figured any card that overrides a default instead of modifying it would literally say so. Like Torn Signpost for instance saying "2 strength" instead of "+1 strenght".
Not that I don't believe your answer of course, but if Anonymous Freight would have been worded "a 3 stealth action" (minus the '+'), it still would've been possible to have Muaziz make that 4, right? Would there have been any difference?
Directly from the rulebook (emphasis mine):
"Equipment cards are action cards that give minions special abilities. The equip action has a default +1 stealth.
To equip with an equipment card currently possessed by one of your other minions, tap the acting minion (the minion who is attempting to get the equipment) and announce the equipment card he is getting. More than one equipment card can be taken from a minion in a single action. If the action is unsuccessful, the equipment remains where it is."
Anonymous Freight explicitly states it's an "equip action". This, amongst other things means abilities like Reg Driscoll's special and Hag's Wrinkles still work, but it's not that logical (to me, anyways) that it follows all the rules in 6.1 for such actions, except the stealth bit.
Might be a language problem, that's always possible. But it seems counter-intuitive to me to think that some actions that (literally) are equip actions, would ignore that bold bit but follow the rest.
In the same way, the rulebook says political actions have +1 stealth but apparently what is meant is "(only) actions to play political action cards" get +1 stealth. Again, it seems strange to me that the action to burn Legendary Vampire is a political action in every way (NRA, reaction cards) except that bit.
Oh well, guess I have some weird news next game night. :soblue:
I get what you're saying. But I think there are a few reasons why things are worded the way they are.
First, I think it wanted to be clear that everything stacks. In the original version of the game, Torn Signpost said "2 hand damage / 3 hand damage", and there were also vampires that said "2 hand damage". By that wording, it was clear they did not stack. At some point, Torn Signpost was changed to say "+1 hand damage / +2 hand damage", but only allowed once per combat. Later, in a more reasonable update, Torn Signpost was changed back to the way it was (you could play it multiple times, but wouldn't get any additional benefit), and the "2 hand damage" vampires were changed to "+1 hand damage" (later "+1 strength", when the concept of strength was introduced). Stealth has always been defined with "+ amount" rather than any base amount plus bonuses, to avoid the issue of two base numbers that don't stack. Everything stacks on top of the "0 stealth" base value, and plusses make it obvious that everything stacks.
I haven't read any version of the rules in a very long time, but the action definitions for equipping and political actions, I believe, are referring to the actions given by those types of cards. When you play a political action card to call a vote, that action is at +1 stealth. If Legendary Vampire simply said "as a political action", I'm not 100% clear whether the current rules would have made that a +1 stealth action or not. If so, then it's basically reminder text. Like "your prey" on cards that say "bleed your prey". Unfortunately, there have been so many multiple iterations of rules and cards with different card text, that it can be confusing if you don't already know how it's played. But in either case, if the political action would be at +2 stealth, then it would say +2 stealth political action. If the action is at a default +1 stealth, and then it wanted an additional +1 stealth, it would be more confusing to ask you to remember that you take the default and then apply the stated amount on top of it. Similarly with Anonymous Freight. If it wanted you to take the default +1 stealth inherent in an equip action and add a bonus on top of it, it would state that somehow on the card.
Anonymous Freight has an additional issue. It is in no way like a default equip action. The equip action is defined as using an equipment card from your hand as an action card (or taking any amount of equipment from another vampire, but that's another thing entirely), and equipping it at +1 stealth. Anonymous Freight is an action card itself, and playing an action card comes with no inherent stealth that isn't printed on the card. In this case, "equip" is essentially a keyword that lets it interact with special abilities that work on equip actions. There's a similar card in... Ebony Kingdom, I think... that's a +2 stealth hunt action. Hunt is just a keyword that lets you use the card when your vampire is out of blood.
The rulebook, for each of these actions, says "This action has a default of +1 stealth."
Maybe it's just my programming background, but "default" means "unless otherwise specified, this is the value". Default is the correct term.
If it were meant to be a base stealth value that other actions built on top of, I think it would have to use a different term (like, well, "base stealth").
Thanks for your replies. I understand the whole idea of stacking/not stacking, in fact that's exactly what caused my (wrong) assumptions in the first place.
This has always been how I've explained things to new players: "There's a base value for everything, Bleed is 1, strength is 1, hand size is 7...and a + or - means you modify, not replace, that value." I always took Torn Singpost as an example of the exception to that rule: a base-changer instead of a modifier.
You see (and yes, I realize this whole discussion is only academic, I'm not really trying to convince anyone),
> arkayn wrote:
> it would be more confusing to ask you to remember that you take the default and then apply the stated amount on top of it.
I disagree with you there. I really find it easier to tell people "The 10 standard actions are bleed, hunt, political, recruit, employ, equip, go anarch, leave Torpor, rescue from Torpor, diablerie. Bleeding and rescuing/diablerizing someone else's vampire are at 0 stealth, the others at +1" (rule 6.1, 6.5, 10.4) and then have each card state they are to be counted a standard action or not. If not, there is no inherent stealth unless noted on the card.
IMHO it's always better to learn the rules as stated in the rulebook and then have a card actually modify a value established in the rules, than having to memorize that a lot of "+ values" are there to modify base values, but some actually replace them.
> arkayn wrote:
> There's a similar card in... Ebony Kingdom, I think... that's a +2 stealth hunt action. Hunt is just a keyword that lets you use the card when your vampire is out of blood.
Again, it might be the language barrier at work here. But I don't really see that in the rules myself. Quoted from 6.1 (emphasis mine):
"Instead of taking a default action, a ready minion could play an action card to perform the action indicated on the card. Some action cards are enhanced versions of the default bleed action or other basic actions, while others are original types of actions."
I always read that as meaning a card that i.e. makes you hunt is a hunt action in any way, and follows all the rules for hunting (gain a blood, undirected, mandatory if a vampire is empty) just like the 'cardless version' of the action would. Seems weird that all of that is true except the stealth bit.
> jozxyqk wrote:
> The rulebook, for each of these actions, says "This action has a default of +1 stealth."
>
> Maybe it's just my programming background, but "default" means "unless otherwise specified, this is the value". Default is the correct term.
>
> If it were meant to be a base stealth value that other actions built on top of, I think it would have to use a different term (like, well, "base stealth").
I totally agree on 'default' meaning 'unless specified otherwise'. It's the '+' on cards like Ano.Freight that's causing me problems. When I know there is a default and I see a '+', I am assuming the default still stands (there has been no other established value that replaces it) and now it's getting modified.
I wouldn't have had this problem if the rulebook would have made it clear the default + 1 is only for directly playing an equipment card/transferring a card, instead of mentioning the general wording "equip actions".
Sorry if I'm being unclear, by the way. It's one of those times I'm trying to make a point that sounds fine in my head, but then I need to translate it..
Wow, this is a confusing issue.
I still don't like the idea that +3 basically means -1+3. I get that using the card in itself is a +0 stealth action. But why wouldn't succeeding in playing it mean the +3 is added to the +1 stealth. Surely the rules don't discern between "Default Equip Action" and "Equip Action"?
I could totally get "3 Stealth Action", "+2 to base stealth action" (meaning to add 2 to the original 1 to get the desired 3), or "-3 stealth action" (meaning to subtract 3 from 1). Hell even "A +3 stealth action", to indicate that is it.
Are there not other cards that can be played and are stack-able? Is there a ruling on this anywhere?
I found this to back up my original thinking, from the VEKN.net Rules example:
6.1.6. Action Card (or Card in Play) (http://www.vekn.net/index.php/rulebook/6-minion-phase)
If Krid plays Computer Hacking (text: "Action. Bleed at +1"), then all
the normal rules of bleed actions (only being able to target your prey,
for example) apply, except that the bleed amount is increased by one.
The card is here (http://www.vteschecklist.com/library/show/312).
This card could be take to mean that your Bleed is at +1, rather than adding to the default of +1. It doesn't seem different for Anon Freight "+3 stealth equip action".
> heathengray wrote:
> This card could be take to mean that your Bleed is at +1, rather than adding to the default of +1. It doesn't seem different for Anon Freight "+3 stealth equip action".
It is different. There are some numbers that are base values in the game. Base stealth is 0, base intercept is 0, base bleed is 1, base strength is 1. Any modifications are applied to that base.
The default equip action is at +1 stealth (base of zero, plus one). Anonymous Freight is at +3 stealth (base of zero, plus three - the +3 replaces the default +1). Do I think that they should have just defined Equip as a "1 stealth action", instead of plus 1 stealth? Yes, absolutely. So in that way, I agree with you guys. Action cards that are at more than the base (0) stealth, all say "+ whatever stealth", when they could just as easily say "whatever stealth". Since you only take one action at a time, having action cards that simply set/define the new base stealth for that action instead of wording it as a modifier would have made more sense, IMO, and there would be no issue with what does/doesn't stack.
But despite the fact that the way things are defined (nothing ever says it's a "1 stealth action", it's always a "+1 stealth action") can create confusion, I don't think it's actually ambiguous.
Ah! I think I get it.
Now bear with me... But "+3 stealth equip action." Doesn't mean +0 Stealth to play this card, then the player gets a +3 stealth equip action. The Card is the action to equip.
So the card could read "+3 Stealth Action. Equip any...", adding +3 to whatever the base stealth of the vampire (if any), rather than the default + 1 stealth of the equip action.
And the other card says "a +1 stealth political action." which just means you get what the card says, not adding to anything. But the definite article "a" makes all the difference in understanding that card
Am I correct?