Orun vs Mata Hari

Hi, First, a little question about Transcendent Laibon: Does it have a requirement? In which conditions can you use its Burn Option? You previously answered (via mail): Yes, the requirements are that there must be a Laibon with 3 or more Aye and 3 or more Oruns, anywhere on the table. The Laibon can bein torpor, and/or controlled by someone else. Otherwise, I can use the Burn Option as usual. > Transcendent Laibon > Cardtype: Master > Clan: > Burn Option > Unique master. > Put this card on a Laibon with at least three Aye and three Orun. During your untap phase, this Laibon gains 1 blood. Allies and younger vampires must burn 1 blood or life to attempt to block this Laibon or to target this Laibon with a (D) action. Burn this card if this minion is not ready or has fewer than three Aye or three Orun. Now, the core part: Is it possible to play Orun on Mata Hari? If it is possible, can Mata Hari have more Oruns than her capacity (as long as she isn't a Laibon)? > Orun > Cardtype: Master > Master: trifle. > Put this card on a Laibon. For non-Orun cards played by Methuselahs other than this Laibon's controller, this Laibon is considered to have 2 additional capacity. A Laibon gets an additional vote for every three Orun he or she has. If this Laibon successfully bleeds for more than 2 or successfully performs a (D) action against a non-mortal minion, he or she burns one Orun. Burn this card if this Laibon has more Orun and Aye than his or her capacity. > Mata Hari > Cardtype: Vampire > Clan: Ravnos > Group: 4 > Capacity: 7 > Discipline: aus for qui CHI OBF > Independent. Red List: Mata Hari has 2 votes (titled). You and she may play cards that require a sect and/or clan as if she were of that required sect and/or clan.

> floppyzedolfin wrote: > Hi, > > First, a little question about Transcendent Laibon: > Does it have a requirement? In which conditions can you use its Burn Option? > You previously answered (via mail): Yes, the requirements are that there must be a Laibon with 3 or more Aye and 3 or more Oruns, anywhere on the table. The Laibon can bein torpor, and/or controlled by someone else. Otherwise, I can use the Burn Option as usual. The online rulebook has this to say about requirements and Burn Option: Requirements for Playing Cards. Each library card has symbols on the attribute bar (the marble stripe on the left side) for the card type (except for master cards), the clan or Discipline (if any) required to play the card and the cost (if any) of playing that card. Some cards will have other requirements (such as capacity or title) stated in the card text. Only a minion who meets the requirements given on a minion card can play it, while only a Methuselah who controls a ready minion who meets the requirements of a master card can play it. Some cards that have a requirement also have a burn option icon. This icon means that a Methuselah who doesn't control a minion that meets the requirements may discard the card during any Methuselah's untap phase. Each Methuselah is limited to one such discard each untap phase. LSJ's ruling seems inconsistent with the bold parts.

Well, the Burn Option / requirements might be a tad different than in the rulebook: > [url=http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/010871100558b7d5 wrote: > [LSJ 20091204][/url]"]No. Not all cards require a ready thing, e.g., High Aye/Orun, Transcendent Laibon, Council of Seraphim, etc. There's also a ruling about Watchtower: The Wolves Feeds, that allows the player to use its Burn Option when controlling Seraph but with no Gehenna in play (notice that "Gehenna" isn't a minion's trait).

> floppyzedolfin wrote: > Hi, > > First, a little question about Transcendent Laibon: > Does it have a requirement? Yes: there must be a Laibon with at least three Aye and three Orun. > In which conditions can you use its Burn Option? When there is no such Laibon. > You previously answered (via mail): Yes, the requirements are that there must be a Laibon with 3 or more Aye and 3 or more Oruns, anywhere on the table. The Laibon can bein torpor, and/or controlled by someone else. Otherwise, I can use the Burn Option as usual. I imagine so. It would be difficult to wrangle any other meaning from the printed text. > Now, the core part: > Is it possible to play Orun on Mata Hari? > If it is possible, can Mata Hari have more Oruns than her capacity (as long as she isn't a Laibon)? If she becomes a Laibon and has the proper combination of Aye and Orun, sure, you could play it on her. Note the obvious bit, too, that was also stated in the email you mention: that Transcendant Laibon doesn't require a Methuselah to control a ready Laibon in order to play it.

> Rulemonger wrote: > > > floppyzedolfin wrote: > > Now, the core part: > > Is it possible to play Orun on Mata Hari? > > If it is possible, can Mata Hari have more Oruns than her capacity (as long as she isn't a Laibon)? > If she becomes a Laibon and has the proper combination of Aye and Orun, sure, you could play it on her. > > Note the obvious bit, too, that was also stated in the email you mention: that Transcendant Laibon doesn't require a Methuselah to control a ready Laibon in order to play it. Err, there's been some misunderstanding here :) This last part (the questions involving Mata Hari) are only about Orun. No Transcendent Laibon. The initial question was to determine whether "Put this card on a Laibon [...]" was a requirement, which should make Orun playable on Mata Hari, since it seems to be the case.

If the master card doesn't require the Methuselah to control a ready Laibon in order to play the cad, then Mata doesn't get to use her special

OK, you got me confused. Was that last answer a ruling, or was it a clarification? Reasons for the confusion: > Rulebook wrote: > Burn Option > This icon means that a Methuselah who doesn't control a minion that meets the requirements may discard the card during any Methuselah's untap phase Orun and Transcendent Laibon both read "Put this card on a Laibon [...]". This line serves as "requirement" (Burn Option rule) for Transcendent Laibon. But it doesn't fit as "requirement" (Mata's cardtext) on the Orun card? Should Mata's cardtext be updated to reflect this ruling?

> floppyzedolfin wrote: > OK, you got me confused. Was that last answer a ruling, or was it a clarification? > > Reasons for the confusion: > > > Rulebook wrote: > > Burn Option > > This icon means that a Methuselah who doesn't control a minion that meets the requirements may discard the card during any Methuselah's untap phase > Orun and Transcendent Laibon both read "Put this card on a Laibon [...]". > This line serves as "requirement" (Burn Option rule) for Transcendent Laibon. But it doesn't fit as "requirement" (Mata's cardtext) on the Orun card? Right. > Should Mata's cardtext be updated to reflect this ruling? Nah. The rulebook text could benefit from some tightening, I suppose, though.

> floppyzedolfin wrote: > Should Mata's cardtext be updated to reflect this ruling? No. Mata Hari can also not get Carnivale played on her, which is similar with the "Put on an X" text that isn't a requirement. The problem is that Transcendent Laibon (and Watchtower Wolves Feed) have Burn Option but do not intuitively match the literal definition in the rulebook. It requires either errata to these 2 cards, or a change to the official Burn Option definition. Also, do not put Orun on Mata Hari. You have already lost, even if it mechanically works.