Waste Management looks rather useful for Brujah/!Brujah rush decks.
The utility might be increased with a frequent shuffle effect on your
library. Can you use something like Al's Army Apparatus to search for
a non-existent weapon and then shuffle your library?
Tom
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
In article <8u8roa$8m1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Tom Kassel <tka...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Waste Management looks rather useful for Brujah/!Brujah rush decks.
> The utility might be increased with a frequent shuffle effect on your
> library. Can you use something like Al's Army Apparatus to search for
> a non-existent weapon and then shuffle your library?
I guess there is nothing per se to stop you doing so, but it is
unsportsmanlike - although not actually cheating it is abusing actions.
There are tourney rules about unsportsmanlike conduct, with some harsh
penalties. But in friendly play, you are left at the mercy of the other
players - sometimes even worse!
So if you are going to do it, do it *sparingly* (i.e. not every turn to
recycle your one Minion Tap!).
;)
Alternatvely, why bother with non - existent! Use lots of Bombs /
Grenades / WP Grenades, Pier 13 Baltimore / Vast Wealths. That way you
use the explosive weapon and burn it, cycle it back into your library
via Waste management, and you can search as an action with Vast Wealth
or Arms Dealer / Als Army Apparatus (shuffling afterwards). Even better
if used on Black Cat!
Alternatively, use Saturday Night Specials and Dragons Breath Rounds.
Even better if you use Fames too!
DH
[ quoted text not captured ]
hamd...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Tom Kassel <tka...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > Waste Management looks rather useful for Brujah/!Brujah rush decks.
> > The utility might be increased with a frequent shuffle effect on
> > your library. Can you use something like Al's Army Apparatus to
> > search for a non-existent weapon and then shuffle your library?
>
> I guess there is nothing per se to stop you doing so, but it is
> unsportsmanlike - although not actually cheating it is abusing
> actions.
It's legal, and I don't see anything unsportsmanlike about it.
Al's is a resource - you can use it in any legal way.
Otherwise you'll have to start worrying if any non-standard use
of a card is "sportsmanlike".
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8u8u9e$alf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> hamd...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Tom Kassel <tka...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > Waste Management looks rather useful for Brujah/!Brujah rush
decks.
> > > The utility might be increased with a frequent shuffle effect on
> > > your library. Can you use something like Al's Army Apparatus to
> > > search for a non-existent weapon and then shuffle your library?
> >
> > I guess there is nothing per se to stop you doing so, but it is
> > unsportsmanlike - although not actually cheating it is abusing
> > actions.
>
> It's legal, and I don't see anything unsportsmanlike about it.
> Al's is a resource - you can use it in any legal way.
>
> Otherwise you'll have to start worrying if any non-standard use
> of a card is "sportsmanlike".
The intention of the card is to search though for weapons. If you don't
have any in the deck, and you know this when you add the card, then the
search will be fruitless. This to my mind is like cheating if used on a
regular basis (as a key strategy of a deck).
If you do this in front of other players more than once in the game,
players will be very unimpressed.
Maybe Final Nights needs a card called something like "World in Chaos",
a Master Location you can tap to shuffle your deck.
DH
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8u8vsu$bqd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
[ quoted text not captured ]
Legal is good enough for me. I don't see how players can object to the
use of a game effect for less rather than more than it's printed text.
It's not clear how strong it would be. For reliability you would need
several copies of each, at the expense of other important masters. One
of the objectives is purely headache avoidance - not having to remember
the exact sequence of cards placed at the end of the deck with Waste
Management.
Tom
[ quoted text not captured ]
hamd...@my-deja.com writes:
> The intention of the card is to search though for weapons. If you don't
> have any in the deck, and you know this when you add the card, then the
> search will be fruitless. This to my mind is like cheating if used on a
> regular basis (as a key strategy of a deck).
What about burning your own vampires - so you can call Mark of the Damned
to trash your predator?
What about a minion who takes a beating and goes to torpor - on purpose, so
he can become a pool machine playing Regenerations with several Blood Dolls?
What about the legendary "Uriah Winter - Trojan horse of the Giovanni" -
strategy? (Have Vasilis, traitor of Don Cruez out, turn Uriah Winter into a
Brujah and let your prey take control of him)
What about giving pool away via Succubus Club - so you can call a
Parity Shift and steal pool from your prey?
> If you do this in front of other players more than once in the game,
> players will be very unimpressed.
In our playgroup, if you pull something like this out, the reaction tends
to be admiration and jealousy. (Why didn't *I* think about that?)
IMHO, it's a sign of human ingenuity to use cards in a way they were
never meant to be used - as long as it's done legally, of course. :-)
HG
--
hg | The brain does process all sensation, Crowley said. If the brain
@iki | is fully awake and conscious of what it is doing, why on earth
.fi | should it treat any sensation as a less than orgasmic experience?
| - Robert Anton Wilson, "Masks of the Illuminati"
On Tue, 07 Nov 2000 13:25:56 GMT, hamd...@my-deja.com wrote:
>Maybe Final Nights needs a card called something like "World in Chaos",
>a Master Location you can tap to shuffle your deck.
As far as I know, it's always been legal to pick up your library and
shuffle it at any time; you then offer it to your predator to cut.
What has changed that I'm not aware of? I mean, it's not like
shuffling your library is guaranteed to HELP you in some fashion -
sure, perhaps if you have a Waste Management bit out, you can shuffle
your Minion Tap back in and then hope like hell it comes up closer to
the top, but this is HARDLY abusive. I'd certainly love to see
someone produce a deck that successfully did so, because we could sack
a few laws of probability in the process.
I really just don't understand, even if it is illegal to shuffle your
library at random, why it would matter somehow.
-- Derek
Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
- C. Darwin, 1871
> In article <8u8roa$8m1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,> Tom Kassel <tka...@my-deja.com> wrote:>> Waste Management looks rather useful for Brujah/!Brujah rush decks.
>> The utility might be increased with a frequent shuffle effect on your
>> library. Can you use something like Al's Army Apparatus to search for
>> a non-existent weapon and then shuffle your library?
[snip]
> Alternatvely, why bother with non - existent! Use lots of Bombs /
> Grenades / WP Grenades, Pier 13 Baltimore / Vast Wealths. That way you
> use the explosive weapon and burn it, cycle it back into your library
> via Waste management, and you can search as an action with Vast Wealth
> or Arms Dealer / Als Army Apparatus (shuffling afterwards). Even better
> if used on Black Cat!
>
> Alternatively, use Saturday Night Specials and Dragons Breath Rounds.
> Even better if you use Fames too!
Or do one of those weird alliances, with Rudolpho, Rigby (for the !Bru
you need) and some Ass-Mite (Parnassus is alaways good). Get out the
Terrorists, who can get a bomb next turn. Rigby or Parnassus can use
that little hairy eyeball to Precognizantly Moblize them, and the
terrorists can run off with their bomb that same turn. *BOOM!*
Rudolpho promptly Compels them back into play, and you put the Bomb
back on the bottom of the deck at the end. (Lather, et. al.)
Yeah, yeah, it's one pool every time, but getting Black Cat and
Heidelburg on top of all that was just *too* silly.
--
Pat Ricochet
Soul Jar'rn Fool
In article <sgag0tgmp5aseeok2...@4ax.com>,
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Nov 2000 13:25:56 GMT, hamd...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >Maybe Final Nights needs a card called something like "World in
Chaos",
> >a Master Location you can tap to shuffle your deck.
>
> As far as I know, it's always been legal to pick up your library and
> shuffle it at any time; you then offer it to your predator to cut.
>
> What has changed that I'm not aware of? I mean, it's not like
> shuffling your library is guaranteed to HELP you in some fashion -
> sure, perhaps if you have a Waste Management bit out, you can shuffle
> your Minion Tap back in and then hope like hell it comes up closer to
> the top, but this is HARDLY abusive. I'd certainly love to see
> someone produce a deck that successfully did so, because we could sack
> a few laws of probability in the process.
>
> I really just don't understand, even if it is illegal to shuffle your
> library at random, why it would matter somehow.
>
Re-shuffling a deck whose order is unknown is clearly a pointless
exercize, though many CCGs need a thorough shuffle between games
because cards become bunched by type in play. If you didn't spend
enough time on this task, as evidenced by drawing cards in clusters,
you might want to shuffle to better randomize the deck.
Once there have been additions to the bottom of the deck, the shuffle
can be valuable to bring the selected cards into play faster. In the
case of the rush deck I have been considering, the main effect of
adding a card a turn while playing perhaps 10 cards is another turn
before depleting the deck entirely. With my limited card collection it
would also allow more frequent use of a few key cards that I own in
insufficient quantities. A more generalized toolbox deck would be
better able to adapt to the opponents by recycling the most appropriate
cards. Neither of these seem terribly abusive functions, but it does
seem reasonable that there is some cost to be paid for the shuffle.
[ quoted text not captured ]
[ quoted text not captured ]
Well, Waste Management offers a slighty abusive function. The long
standing abuse option in V:TES is Tusk, the Talebearer (or Grendel, I keep
getting them confused since people often have both of them out).
"Hold on, lemme look at the top card. Ok, hold on, lemme shuffle. Cut me.
Oh, lemme see the top card again. No, wait, lemme shuffle again. . ."
This is covered under DCI/VKEN/whatever as "delay of game," probably.
Wouldn't be hard to call the judge over. But, what if she does it only once
a turn? Is that clever, or abuse?
--
Pat Ricochet
Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta
In article <sgag0tgmp5aseeok2...@4ax.com>,
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Nov 2000 13:25:56 GMT, hamd...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >Maybe Final Nights needs a card called something like "World in
Chaos",
> >a Master Location you can tap to shuffle your deck.
>
> As far as I know, it's always been legal to pick up your library and
> shuffle it at any time; you then offer it to your predator to cut.
What? During games? I've never heard of such a thing. Do
people actually do this? I always thought you only shuffled
and offered the cut (a) at the beginning of a game, and (b)
when a card tells you to (eg Vast Wealth, Horrid Reality,
etc).
I mean, the rulebook may not specifically tell you not to
shuffle during games, but I think it only tells you that
you *should* shuffle before the game... and not mentioning
that you can't do it doesn't mean that you can.
> What has changed that I'm not aware of? I mean, it's not like
> shuffling your library is guaranteed to HELP you in some fashion -
> sure, perhaps if you have a Waste Management bit out, you can shuffle
> your Minion Tap back in and then hope like hell it comes up closer to
> the top, but this is HARDLY abusive. I'd certainly love to see
> someone produce a deck that successfully did so, because we could sack
> a few laws of probability in the process.
It's obvious that, if you put a Minion Tap on the bottom of
your library, and then shuffle, it *must* be at least as
close to the top as it was before, and will almost certainly
be closer.
> I really just don't understand, even if it is illegal to shuffle your
> library at random, why it would matter somehow.
Because if you know what the deck looks like beforehand
(eg you know what cards are on the bottom), you may have
a reason to want to shuffle.
Josh
better late than never
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Tue, 07 Nov 2000 17:51:38 GMT, Tom Kassel <tka...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
>In article <sgag0tgmp5aseeok2...@4ax.com>,
> Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:>> the top, but this is HARDLY abusive. I'd certainly love to see
>> someone produce a deck that successfully did so, because we could sack
>> a few laws of probability in the process.
>>>> I really just don't understand, even if it is illegal to shuffle your
>> library at random, why it would matter somehow.
>>>Re-shuffling a deck whose order is unknown is clearly a pointless
>exercize, though many CCGs need a thorough shuffle between games
>because cards become bunched by type in play. If you didn't spend
>enough time on this task, as evidenced by drawing cards in clusters,
>you might want to shuffle to better randomize the deck.
Correct. Of course, there's also the theory that you could just have
hit an isolated cluster, and that shuffling does no better than to
just produce MORE clusters - but that's part of why it's a pointless
exercise.
>Once there have been additions to the bottom of the deck, the shuffle
>can be valuable to bring the selected cards into play faster. In the
So instead of being card #70 in a library with 70 cards remaining, I
now have any of 69 different places the card could end up.
Mathematically, this is an improvement. Realistically, unless one
gets incredibly lucky and shuffles it into their top 10-20 cards, it
provides no significant benefit. A 30% chance of getting a card back
again in my next few turns is not something I'd care to gamble on -
I'd rather just add more into my deck.
In addition, your predator gets to cut your deck, adding an additional
random element and removing any chance of deliberately shuffling the
card near to the top.
>case of the rush deck I have been considering, the main effect of
>adding a card a turn while playing perhaps 10 cards is another turn
>before depleting the deck entirely. With my limited card collection it
Certainly. And for Rush decks, this would work very well, since over
the course of several turns you could "stack" the bottom of your deck
to be in perfect order (ie Bum's Rush, Torn Signpost, Flash, Immortal
Grapple, Blur, Taste) for One Last Hurrah. But you have to reach the
bottom of your deck for this to work, and if you're ousted by then, it
won't matter much - so I can't see this as being abusive at all.
It is worth noting that they put it in a Rush-clan deck. :)
>would also allow more frequent use of a few key cards that I own in
>insufficient quantities. A more generalized toolbox deck would be
>better able to adapt to the opponents by recycling the most appropriate
>cards. Neither of these seem terribly abusive functions, but it does
>seem reasonable that there is some cost to be paid for the shuffle.
I cannot see any way to guarantee that you will draw the card shuffled
thusly in any reasonable amount of time. Someone who wishes to depend
totally on luck is perfectly welcome to, IMO.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Joshua Duffin <jt...@cornell.edu> wrote:
> Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > As far as I know, it's always been legal to pick up your library and
> > shuffle it at any time; you then offer it to your predator to cut.
>
> What? During games? I've never heard of such a thing. Do
> people actually do this? I always thought you only shuffled
> and offered the cut (a) at the beginning of a game, and (b)
> when a card tells you to (eg Vast Wealth, Horrid Reality,
> etc).
Correct. You can only shuffle at the designated times.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/[ quoted text not captured ]
hamd...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> In article <8u8u9e$alf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > hamd...@my-deja.com wrote:> > > Tom Kassel <tka...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > > Waste Management looks rather useful for Brujah/!Brujah rush
> decks.
> > > > The utility might be increased with a frequent shuffle effect on
> > > > your library. Can you use something like Al's Army Apparatus to
> > > > search for a non-existent weapon and then shuffle your library?
> > >> > > I guess there is nothing per se to stop you doing so, but it is
> > > unsportsmanlike - although not actually cheating it is abusing
> > > actions.
> >
> > It's legal, and I don't see anything unsportsmanlike about it.
> > Al's is a resource - you can use it in any legal way.
> >
> > Otherwise you'll have to start worrying if any non-standard use
> > of a card is "sportsmanlike".
>> The intention of the card is to search though for weapons. If you don't
> have any in the deck, and you know this when you add the card, then the
> search will be fruitless. This to my mind is like cheating if used on a
> regular basis (as a key strategy of a deck).
Eh, you need to get a new mind, then. If the shuffle mechanic is part of
the card, then it automatically becomes a useful tool for that purpose.
Never mind what how the card was "intended" to be used. You really have
no proof that the designers actually _didn't_ intend for AAA to be used
in this manner. And by the same token, I suspect lots of other cards get
used all the time in ways the designers never envisioned.
> If you do this in front of other players more than once in the game,
> players will be very unimpressed.
I will be. I think it would be very clever if someone can make this work.
Fred
On Tue, 07 Nov 2000 12:48:49 GMT, hamd...@my-deja.com wrote:
>I guess there is nothing per se to stop you doing so, but it is
>unsportsmanlike - although not actually cheating it is abusing actions.>There are tourney rules about unsportsmanlike conduct, with some harsh
>penalties.
Unsportsmanlike conduct means out-of-game stuff like hurling abuse at
your opponent or the umpire. The usual term for the sort of trick
that Tom proposes is "cheese". Don't ask me why ...
Andrew
> Unsportsmanlike conduct means out-of-game stuff like hurling abuse at
> your opponent or the umpire. The usual term for the sort of trick
> that Tom proposes is "cheese". Don't ask me why ...
>
actually i'd say it's you can do that... <evil grin> not necessarily in
that order. Cheese is presence bleed before misdirection was fixed,
cheese is infinate cardano unblockable tacticle nukes, this isn't
cheese, it's a novel use for a card that other wise doesn't get much
play. good for tom.
Cameron
[ quoted text not captured ]
<hamd...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8u8vsu$bqd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8u8u9e$alf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > hamd...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > Tom Kassel <tka...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > > Waste Management looks rather useful for Brujah/!Brujah rush
> decks.
> > > > The utility might be increased with a frequent shuffle effect on
> > > > your library. Can you use something like Al's Army Apparatus to
> > > > search for a non-existent weapon and then shuffle your library?
> > >> > > I guess there is nothing per se to stop you doing so, but it is
> > > unsportsmanlike - although not actually cheating it is abusing
> > > actions.
> >> > It's legal, and I don't see anything unsportsmanlike about it.
> > Al's is a resource - you can use it in any legal way.
> >
> > Otherwise you'll have to start worrying if any non-standard use
> > of a card is "sportsmanlike".
>
> The intention of the card is to search though for weapons. If you don't
> have any in the deck, and you know this when you add the card, then the
> search will be fruitless. This to my mind is like cheating if used on a
> regular basis (as a key strategy of a deck).
If there was a medicine that could save your life during a heart attack
but was originally used for something completely different, would you
take it during your heart attack? Oh, wait, that is ASPIRIN we are
talking about, and you can bet that the doctors that will recommend that
you use aspirin this way don't care that is was originally used for
toothaches. (apologies for prolific use of the word 'that')
Could you tell me why LEGAL but TRICKY use of a card merits your disdain,
and why LEGAL use of a card mechanic is CHEATING?
> If you do this in front of other players more than once in the game,
> players will be very unimpressed.
Define "unimpressed".
> Maybe Final Nights needs a card called something like "World in Chaos",
> a Master Location you can tap to shuffle your deck.
Final Nights needs that card like the World Trade Center needs another
bomb.
> DH
--
Kevin J. Mergen, kjme...@home.com, Prince of Madison, WI
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier