Clan symbols question (LSJ)

Hello, after the long discussion about the new promo Lucita and her clan symbol, i have a question about the new clan symbols on the upcoming Sabbat War expansion: the clan symbol for Lasombra, Panders and Tzimisce will be with the wax seal in the background? Also, the wax seal in the background of a clan symbol, should describe the "antitribu" status of that clan or Sabbat membership? Thanks in advance Aemilianus, Prince of Rome Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

On Sun, 3 Sep 2000 tetragr...@my-deja.com wrote: > Hello, after the long discussion about the new promo Lucita and > her clan symbol, i have a question about the new clan symbols on the > upcoming Sabbat War expansion: > the clan symbol for Lasombra, Panders and Tzimisce will be with the > wax seal in the background? > Also, the wax seal in the background of a clan symbol, > should describe the "antitribu" status of that clan or Sabbat > membership? Neither. It clearly has not indicated "antitribu" status. The Lasombra, the Tzimisce, and the Pander are not antitribu, and yet they have the wax seal. I doubt the new expansion will alter this, as it would only cause confusion. IANLSJ, but I would venture to say that I do not believe that, officially, the wax seal is an indicator of anything -- except that it is an element of the symbol of various clans, and, together with the central portion, indicates a particular clan. Officially, it is not merely a "background" for the clan symbol, it is a necessary part of the clan symbol. If you were to remove this background from "Nosferatu Antitribu" clan, you would then have the symbol for "Nosferatu", which is a different clan entirely. Similarly, if you were to remove the background from the Lasombra symbol (either the old or the new), you would no longer have what is the official symbol of clan Lasombra according to card-game rules. However if you wish to attach a individual meaning to the wax seal that is consistent with how it is used, I would suggest the following: It indicates that the clan in question is a "Sabbat clan", and that members of that clan are considered BY DEFAULT to be members of the Sabbat sect. This does not, of course, apply to individual vampires, but only to the clan as a whole. Thus, if Agatha (Nos Antitribu) were to acquire to acquire a Writ of Acceptance, she would no longer be a Sabbat vampire. However, she would still be a Nosferatu Antitribu, and her clan symbol would still have the Sabbat wax seal in its background, even though she is not Sabbat. She is no longer Sabbat, but her clan still is. The "default Sabbat" status of a clan becomes relevant when new members are created for that particular clan. Imagine, then that Agatha (with her writ of acceptance, and now Camarilla Prince of DC) plays Embrace, or 3rd Tradition Projeny, or Revelation of the Sire. In all these cases the newly created member of the Nos Antitribu clan is now considered Sabbat, because there is nothing indicating otherwise, and this is the default sect of the Nos-Antitribu clan. I imagine that this default status would also apply if a vampire from a normally Sabbat clan were inadvertently printed without the word "Sabbat" on it (none currently exist). The situation with Lucita is similar to that of Agatha with a writ of acceptance. She is not Sabbat, because her card text explicitly says so. Nonetheless, she is a member of clan Lasombra. Thus, her clan symbol has the seal -- because without it, it would no longer be the official symbol of Clan Lasombra. However, the meaning I have suggested need not not be strictly correct. We already have cards, such as "Invitation Accepted" that alter the default sect status for certain clans. This does not, of course, alter the clan symbol. Imagine that in the future a similar political card were printed that allowed all Nosferatu Antitribu to become Independent. Their clan symbol would remain the same, yet its wax seal could no longer be taken as a indicator of default Sabbat membership, since its members are now, by default, independent. So, in the final analysis, the symbol means nothing beyond helping to designate a certain clan. But as long as we're waiting for LSJ to answer, here's a question of my own relating to Lucita's sect status: At what points in the following chain of events is Lucita's "independent" text still applicable, and at what points is it superceded by other effects?: 1. Lucita reduntantly clan-impersonates Lasombra. 2. Lucita burns the Lasombra impersonation. 3. Lucita clan-impersonates a Tzimisce. 4. Lucita burns the Tzimisce impersonation. 5. Lucita clan-impersonates a Settite 6. Settites join the Camarilla via Invitation Accepted. 7. Lucita gains a writ of acceptance 8. Lucita (still with the writ) clan impersonates a Lasombra (she now has two impersonations and a writ on her) 9. Lucita loses the writ 10. Lucita burns the Settite impersonation 11. Lucita burns the Lasombra impersonation -- John Whelan

Whee! Look to LSJ for the "official" interpretation, but I can't help but give this one a go, since it looks entertaining. It probably helps that i've been playing one-pocket all night and am in a convoluted frame of mind already. On Sun, 3 Sep 2000 01:21:09 -0400, John Whelan <jbwh...@amanda.dorsai.org> wrote: >But as long as we're waiting for LSJ to answer, here's a question of my >own relating to Lucita's sect status: At what points in the following >chain of events is Lucita's "independent" text still applicable, and at >what points is it superceded by other effects?: > >1. Lucita reduntantly clan-impersonates Lasombra. she is now Sabbat - the impersonation is "complete". >2. Lucita burns the Lasombra impersonation. back to Independent. >3. Lucita clan-impersonates a Tzimisce. Sabbat - see #1. >4. Lucita burns the Tzimisce impersonation. back to Independent. >5. Lucita clan-impersonates a Settite Still independent, as Setites are independent, but her card text is obscured by the Setite Impersonation. >6. Settites join the Camarilla via Invitation Accepted. Now she's Camarilla by virtue of her Impersonation. >7. Lucita gains a writ of acceptance Now she's Camarilla twice. Whee! >8. Lucita (still with the writ) clan impersonates a Lasombra (she now has >two impersonations and a writ on her) This is where it gets ugly. I believe she's still Camarilla, since now she appears to be a Lasombra with a Writ of Acceptance. Or the long form: she's an Independent who is Impersonating a Setite who is Impersonating a Lasombra who has a Writ of Acceptance. >9. Lucita loses the writ Now she's Sabbat, as Lasombra are Sabbat. >10. Lucita burns the Settite impersonation Still Sabbat. >11. Lucita burns the Lasombra impersonation Back to herself. Does she have any blood left after all those Clan Impersonations? =) -- Derek Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta

tetragr...@my-deja.com wrote: > Hello, after the long discussion about the new promo Lucita and > her clan symbol, i have a question about the new clan symbols on the > upcoming Sabbat War expansion: > the clan symbol for Lasombra, Panders and Tzimisce will be with the > wax seal in the background? Yes, based on the Lucita card (which is a Lasombra, and uses a Lasombra symbol with a wax seal in the background), just like the Sabbat expansion had (with the then-current clan symbols, of course). > Also, the wax seal in the background of a clan symbol, > should describe the "antitribu" status of that clan or Sabbat > membership? Sabbat membership (of the clan). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

John Whelan wrote: > But as long as we're waiting for LSJ to answer, here's a question of my Your answers and examinations appear correct. > own relating to Lucita's sect status: At what points in the following > chain of events is Lucita's "independent" text still applicable, and at > what points is it superceded by other effects?: > > 1. Lucita reduntantly clan-impersonates Lasombra. Nothing happens (except that she burns 2 blood). > 2. Lucita burns the Lasombra impersonation. Nothing happens. > 3. Lucita clan-impersonates a Tzimisce. She becomes a Tzimisce. Since she has changed clans to a clan of a different sect, her sect changes [10]. > 4. Lucita burns the Tzimisce impersonation. She becomes Lasombra (and remains Sabbat). > 5. Lucita clan-impersonates a Settite She becomes a Follower of Set (and remains Independent) > 6. Settites join the Camarilla via Invitation Accepted. All Followers of Set (incl. the impersonating Lucita) are Camarilla. > 7. Lucita gains a writ of acceptance Lucita remains Camarilla (and has a writ). > 8. Lucita (still with the writ) clan impersonates a Lasombra (she now has > two impersonations and a writ on her) Luciat becomes Lasombra. Since she changes clan to a clan of a different sect, her base sect changes to Sabbat. She still has the Writ, however, so is still considered Camarilla. > 9. Lucita loses the writ She drops to her "base" sect: Sabbat. > 10. Lucita burns the Settite impersonation No effect. The Lasombra Impersonation still holds. > 11. Lucita burns the Lasombra impersonation No effect. She remains Lasombra. (and Sabbat, since that is what she was before "nothing happened"). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, LSJ wrote: > John Whelan wrote: > > But as long as we're waiting for LSJ to answer, here's a question of my > > Your answers and examinations appear correct. > > > own relating to Lucita's sect status: At what points in the following > > chain of events is Lucita's "independent" text still applicable, and at > > what points is it superceded by other effects?: > > > > 1. Lucita reduntantly clan-impersonates Lasombra. > > Nothing happens (except that she burns 2 blood). > > > 2. Lucita burns the Lasombra impersonation. > > Nothing happens. > > > 3. Lucita clan-impersonates a Tzimisce. > > She becomes a Tzimisce. Since she has changed clans to a clan of a different > sect, her sect changes [10]. > > > 4. Lucita burns the Tzimisce impersonation. > > She becomes Lasombra (and remains Sabbat). Hmm. Interesting. So burning the Impersonation does not restore her original designation by card text. That leads me to ask about another example: 1- Lucita impersonates a Settite (She remains independent, but card text is, in a way, superceded, since her Independent status is no longer based on card text, but on the sect of her new clan). 2- Lucita burns the Impersonation (becoming Lasombra again). So is her original independent status (by card text) now restored, or does she now become Sabbat, since she has just changed into a Lasombra, and Lasombra are a Sabbat clan? -- John Whelan

John Whelan wrote: > Hmm. Interesting. So burning the Impersonation does not restore her > original designation by card text. That leads me to ask about another Right. Neither card text nor any rule says to change her sect, so her sect doesn't change. > example: > > 1- Lucita impersonates a Settite (She remains independent, but card text > is, in a way, superceded, since her Independent status is no longer > based on card text, but on the sect of her new clan). She didn't change clans to a clan of a different sect, so her sect has not been superceded. She remains Independent. > 2- Lucita burns the Impersonation (becoming Lasombra again). > > So is her original independent status (by card text) now restored, or does > she now become Sabbat, since she has just changed into a Lasombra, and > Lasombra are a Sabbat clan? Now she has changed clans to a clan (Lasombra) which belongs to a different sect than the sect to which she currently belongs. So she changes sect to match the sect of her new clan (Sabbat). See section 10. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > So is her original independent status (by card text) now restored, or does > > she now become Sabbat, since she has just changed into a Lasombra, and > > Lasombra are a Sabbat clan? > Now she has changed clans to a clan (Lasombra) which belongs to a different > sect than the sect to which she currently belongs. So she changes sect to > match the sect of her new clan (Sabbat). So by nature of her changing sect (via Clan Impersonation) then undoing that change, she can go from Independant to Sabbat (thus effectively removing the 'Independant' text on her card)? That seems counter-intuitive... Sorrow --- "Are they dead?" - Pugsly "Does it matter?" - Wednesday

Christoph wrote: > > > So is her original independent status (by card text) now restored, or > does > > > she now become Sabbat, since she has just changed into a Lasombra, and > > > Lasombra are a Sabbat clan? > > Now she has changed clans to a clan (Lasombra) which belongs to a > different > > sect than the sect to which she currently belongs. So she changes sect to > > match the sect of her new clan (Sabbat). > > So by nature of her changing sect (via Clan Impersonation) then undoing that > change, she can go from Independant to Sabbat (thus effectively removing > the 'Independant' text on her card)? Yes. > That seems counter-intuitive... Perhaps, but it follows directly from the rules. While independent, she changed clans to a Sabbat clan - Clan Lasombra. By section 10, her sect also changes to the sect of the new clan. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > So by nature of her changing sect (via Clan Impersonation) then undoing that > > change, she can go from Independant to Sabbat (thus effectively removing > > the 'Independant' text on her card)? > Yes. Funky. > > That seems counter-intuitive... > Perhaps, but it follows directly from the rules. Perhaps, but... > While independent, she changed clans to a Sabbat clan - Clan Lasombra. > By section 10, her sect also changes to the sect of the new clan. I could have sworn you said something to the contrary early on... That if she Clan Impersonated a Lasombra, she would remain 'Independant' and not 'Sabbat' and as such could not play "Sabbat only" cards... I cannot seem to get Deja.com to work for me right now, so I cannot find anything to back the above up. My memory could be off, but I could have sworn I remember seeing something along those lines from you... Sorrow --- "...but you know, evil is an exact science..."

Christoph wrote: > > While independent, she changed clans to a Sabbat clan - Clan Lasombra. > > By section 10, her sect also changes to the sect of the new clan. > > I could have sworn you said something to the contrary early on... That if > she Clan Impersonated a Lasombra, she would remain 'Independant' and > not 'Sabbat' and as such could not play "Sabbat only" cards... > > I cannot seem to get Deja.com to work for me right now, so I cannot find > anything to back the above up. My memory could be off, but I could have > sworn I remember seeing something along those lines from you... Yes. The key is that if she doesn't change clans (Impersonates a Lasombra when she is Lasombra already, for instance), then there is no mechanism to change sect. (This being the gist of the article you're thinking of.) If she does change clans (say, from Settite to Lasombra, as in the example in question above), *and* the clan being changed to is of a different sect than her current sect (again, as above), then her sect changes to that of the new clan as well. All of this is handled by section 10. And section 10's sect-change only applies when *changing* clans - not when "impersonating" your own clan. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > I could have sworn you said something to the contrary early on... That if > > she Clan Impersonated a Lasombra, she would remain 'Independant' and > > not 'Sabbat' and as such could not play "Sabbat only" cards... > Yes. The key is that if she doesn't change clans (Impersonates a Lasombra > when she is Lasombra already, for instance), then there is no mechanism > to change sect. (This being the gist of the article you're thinking of.) Ahh yes, I recall now.. You are correct. > If she does change clans (say, from Settite to Lasombra, as in the example > in question above), *and* the clan being changed to is of a different sect > than her current sect (again, as above), then her sect changes to that > of the new clan as well. > All of this is handled by section 10. > And section 10's sect-change only applies when *changing* clans - not when > "impersonating" your own clan. Understood. Thanks for the clarification. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, LSJ wrote: > All of this is handled by section 10. > > And section 10's sect-change only applies when *changing* clans - not when > "impersonating" your own clan. I checked section 10, and I cannot find that this issue is specifically dealt with. I'm not arguing. Just wondering if something got inadvertently edited out. I expected to find something along the lines of "If a vampire changes to a new clan, then he will also assume whatever sect is associated with that clan." I seem to remember a ruling somewhat like that, but cannot find it on the current on-line version of the rulebook. Is there another more complete version somewhere? -- John Whelan

John Whelan wrote: > > On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, LSJ wrote: > > > All of this is handled by section 10. > > > > And section 10's sect-change only applies when *changing* clans - not when > > "impersonating" your own clan. > > I checked section 10, and I cannot find that this issue is specifically > dealt with. I'm not arguing. Just wondering if something got > inadvertently edited out. Oops. You're right. It's from RTR 08-JUL-1996, and it's not in the revised (online) rulebook: "If a vampire changes his clan to one that is part of a different sect (e.g., a Giovanni impersonates a Camarilla clan), then he or she is considered to be part of the new sect instead of the old one." Thanks for checking up on me. :-) [ quoted text not captured ]