The 2nd Preview is Out on White Wolf's page

It appears the 2nd preview for Sabbat War is out on White Wolf's page. Don't want to ruin the surprise so see for yourself at.. http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/Checklist_SabbatWar.html There also seems to be icon page, for those of you who argue over the Lasombra Antitribute symbol. I don't want to name any names and or poke at an Archon of the Swamp or anything. http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/icons.html Later, Justin -- Justin Lacey Tzimisce Historian of Charlotte Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

kindred_historian <jbl...@hotmail.com> wrote: > It appears the 2nd preview for Sabbat War is out on White Wolf's page. > Don't want to ruin the surprise so see for yourself at.. > > http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/Checklist_SabbatWar.html Hell, I'll ruin the surprise a little. The picture of Mercy, a 5 cap !Toreador looks very nice. It appears I'll have more vampires for my Hot Chicks in Leather deck. Noal -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

YES!! She's a "bleeder" baby! :-) I can't wait for the release. More toys to play with <g> In article <8rst1p$7dn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > kindred_historian <jbl...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > It appears the 2nd preview for Sabbat War is out on White Wolf's > > page. Don't want to ruin the surprise so see for yourself at.. > > > > http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/Checklist_SabbatWar.html > > Hell, I'll ruin the surprise a little. The picture of Mercy, a 5 cap > !Toreador looks very nice. It appears I'll have more vampires for my > Hot Chicks in Leather deck. ------------------------------- Ethan Burrow - Prince of Austin et...@ddg.com http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 09 Oct 2000 17:18:14 GMT, Ethan Burrow <saa...@yahoo.com> wrote: >YES!! She's a "bleeder" baby! :-) Pulse. Legal. Conditioning. and inferior celerity to get out of the way. =) -- Derek "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - C. Darwin, 1871

Has anyone noticed that (some of) the vamps are getting CHEAPER? (cost- wise) I remember that around 25% of the vamps in Ancient Hearts were virtually unplayable because they cost so much for what skills and abilities they possessed. EG: Patrizia Giovanni, Collector of Secrets (Ancient Hearts) 5 -- nec thau qui -- Giovanni <Independent>. As an action, Patrizia can employ a retainer in your ash heap. She still pays the employment cost as normal, but she burns one additional blood. I guess they've Always been expensive... Radeyah (Ancient Hearts) 6 -- CEL pre pot -- Toreador As a (D) action, Radeyah can enter combat with any Follower of Set <controlled by another Methuselah>. Ya Bring HER on... Is Superior Celerity worth THAT much? TAlley - has SUPERIOR Potence AND Obtenebration plus Dom & Aus and an ability (Very nice one too) for 6. That's scary! This new Toreador Antitribu (5pt.) is great as well. Does anyone know how costing a vamp goes? Are some disciplines worth more than others? I remember an article on this maybe 4 years ago - but that was when ONLY the Base set was out. Thanks for posting the previews nonetheless - keeps anticipation at a peak!!! jds Ya I understand she has Potence. Fine - what about In article <8rsr7f$5mt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, kindred_historian <jbl...@hotmail.com> wrote: > It appears the 2nd preview for Sabbat War is out on White Wolf's page. > Don't want to ruin the surprise so see for yourself at.. > > http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/Checklist_SabbatWar.html > > There also seems to be icon page, for those of you who argue over the > Lasombra Antitribute symbol. I don't want to name any names and or poke > at an Archon of the Swamp or anything. > > http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/icons.html > > Later, > Justin > > -- > Justin Lacey > Tzimisce Historian of Charlotte > [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8rt3mn$dds$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, bind...@my-deja.com wrote: > TAlley - has SUPERIOR Potence AND Obtenebration plus Dom & Aus and an > ability (Very nice one too) for 6. That's scary! This new Toreador > Antitribu (5pt.) is great as well. Does anyone know how costing a > vamp goes? Are some disciplines worth more than others? I remember > an article on this maybe 4 years ago - but that was when ONLY the Base > set was out. Thanks for posting the previews nonetheless - keeps > anticipation at a peak!!! The equation used for Sabbat vampires can be found on our Austin expansion page - http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/expansion/vampires.html. We used that equation to make our own vampires. The above two vampires fit the equation, if you round down the fractions. ------------------------------- Ethan Burrow - Prince of Austin et...@ddg.com http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 09 Oct 2000 18:44:42 GMT, bind...@my-deja.com wrote: >Has anyone noticed that (some of) the vamps are getting CHEAPER? (cost- >wise) >I remember that around 25% of the vamps in Ancient Hearts were >virtually unplayable because they cost so much for what skills and >abilities they possessed. EG: > >Patrizia Giovanni, Collector of Secrets (Ancient Hearts) >5 -- nec thau qui -- Giovanni ><Independent>. As an action, Patrizia can employ a retainer in your ash >heap. She still pays the employment cost as normal, but she burns one >additional blood. >I guess they've Always been expensive... No, they've just had a horrible discipline mix. Patrizia is overcosted slightly, but where she really hurts is that her discipline mix is basically just total ass - fits into neither the Giovanni, the Assamites, or the Tremere. Amusing special, but not as good as advertised, since only a few retainers are worthwhile and those cost either lots, nothing, or are things like Marijava Ghoul (and therefore useless to Patrizia.) >Radeyah (Ancient Hearts) >6 -- CEL pre pot -- Toreador >As a (D) action, Radeyah can enter combat with any Follower of Set ><controlled by another Methuselah>. >Ya Bring HER on... Is Superior Celerity worth THAT much? Actually, she fits in a "flung junk" deck of mine very well, since she can bleed for 3, and if you block her, she throws a Gate and two Sewer Lids at you. Don't underestimate superior CEL. The Rush action is mostly useless, but when it IS applicable, it's usually very handy (since the most common Setite decks can be pretty nasty.) >TAlley - has SUPERIOR Potence AND Obtenebration plus Dom & Aus and an >ability (Very nice one too) for 6. That's scary! This new Toreador >Antitribu (5pt.) is great as well. Does anyone know how costing a vamp >goes? Are some disciplines worth more than others? I remember an >article on this maybe 4 years ago - but that was when ONLY the Base set >was out. Thanks for posting the previews nonetheless - keeps >anticipation at a peak!!! Judging from the 3 vampire previews so far, the original "cost" system has probably been tossed. (hey, that rhymes!) Some guidelines you could go by from the original system, though: No disciplines are worth more than others. Superior is worth 2. Inferior is worth 1. Specials are usually worth 1. Some were worth 2 once, but looking at Talley and the Little Tailor,... "not no more." Titles are usually worth 1, but sometimes seem to be free. A 1-4 cap usually has a point less than capacity, often in the form of a special disability. (Lena Rowe.) A 5-7 cap usually has the same points as capacity. An 8-and-up cap tends to be more points than capacity - often lots, especially when you get around the 10 and 11s. soo... we get: Talley, POT (2) OBT (2) dom (1) aus (1) and a special (1) = 7, and he should technically only have 6. But he's also supposed to be a very "good" vampire by comparison to others, even in the clan novels. Little Tailor, VIC (2) ANI (2) AUS (2) dem (1), two specials = 9, and this is more or less 'right' for an 8. Mercy, AUS (2) dom (1) pre (1) cel (1) and no specials = 5, which she is. Lucita, DOM (2) FOR (2) OBT (2) pot (1) cel (1) and a special = 9, which is also about "right" for an 8... and she's -supposed- to be a big ole badass. (three good "make stuff dead" skills, Fortitude, and Dominate. Ouch.) [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] I'm not sure if this is real, but if so, it's definitely better than the point system would allow (but damn it's another 8-cap Tzimisce): http://members.telocity.com/~tzimisce/preview/preview.html p. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:36:02 GMT, Myrmidian <pha...@sfopera.com> wrote: >I'm not sure if this is real, but if so, it's definitely better than >the point system would allow (but damn it's another 8-cap Tzimisce): > >http://members.telocity.com/~tzimisce/preview/preview.html "404 Not Found The requested URL /~tzimisce/preview/preview.html was not found on this server." I would say that putting any trust in a preview which was not located on White Wolf's website would probably not be your best chance of getting an accurate preview of Sabbat War. Especially when it goes boom like that. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Ethan Burrow wrote: Re: Mercy > YES!! She's a "bleeder" baby! :-) Thankfully, they're both (pre and dom) at inferior. *sighs with relief* -- James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D "And all the while I'm thinking things that I can never share with him. I'm a bundle of confusion, yet it has a strange appeal. Did it all begin with him and the way he makes me feel?"

> Re: Mercy > > YES!! She's a "bleeder" baby! :-) > Thankfully, they're both (pre and dom) at inferior. > *sighs with relief* Not that it isn't going to be difficult to make them superior... Sorrow

In article <8r65usot6hhgtjkrv...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:36:02 GMT, Myrmidian <pha...@sfopera.com> > wrote: > > >I'm not sure if this is real, but if so, it's definitely better than > >the point system would allow (but damn it's another 8-cap Tzimisce): > > > >http://members.telocity.com/~tzimisce/preview/preview.html > > "404 Not Found > > The requested URL /~tzimisce/preview/preview.html was not found on > this server." > > I would say that putting any trust in a preview which was not located > on White Wolf's website would probably not be your best chance of > getting an accurate preview of Sabbat War. Especially when it goes > boom like that. =) > Well for one thing, that was only a temp placement and wasn't supposed to be linked to directly. Try reading the online version October Newsletter http://www.warghoul.com/tzimisceNL and look at the bonus coverage. Thanks, Joe Churchill V:EKN Prince of Columbia, SC Editor: Tzimisce Clan Newsletter www.warghoul.com [ quoted text not captured ]

> There also seems to be icon page, for those of you who argue over the > Lasombra Antitribute symbol. I don't want to name any names and or poke > at an Archon of the Swamp or anything. > > http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/icons.html I got your number smart-ass. I was wondering if you noticed the little disclaimer at the bottom. * Note: Clan icons for Sabbat clans include a red wax seal, not shown above, to indicate the clan's membership in the Sabbat. I guess they put that there to maybe avoid confusion on the whole waxseal vs. starcrest issue. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

kindred_historian wrote: > > It appears the 2nd preview for Sabbat War is out on White Wolf's page. > Don't want to ruin the surprise so see for yourself at.. > > http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/Checklist_SabbatWar.html Aaaah, much better :) These cards are a welcome breath of fresh air after the first two! Mercy is particularly stunning, I must say. Still, the oversized normal discipline symbols (and undersized superior symbols) are hard on the eyes. But that is a minor gripe considering the overall quality being shown here. Roll on October 31... -- / \ /\_/ ne...@camtech.net.au \_/\ ( ) ( ) .( ). http://www.adelaide.net.au/~nene/ .( ).

hmmm I'm surprised nobody has commented the fact there's a !Toreador in Sabbat War. I thought there was only going to be vamps of the four announced clans in SW? Surely Mercy probably is only going to be found in the booster, but does that mean there's at least one vamp for all other Sabbat clans as well? What about disciplines then? Will be interesting to see :-) Although the usefulness for new players could be debated. However I think it's good there's a little bit of everything to make the old players happy as well. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8rv4ac$vmg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > [snip] > I guess they put that there to maybe avoid confusion on the whole > waxseal vs. starcrest issue. Norm, You'll also notice, if you squint really hard and turn your brightness up really high the starcrest/burst inside the wax seal on the new !Tor preview vamp on the White Wolf site. Man if there would've been a thin white border around the starcrest/burst it would've been a lot easier on the ol' eyesockets. Joe C. -- V:EKN Prince of Columbia, SC Editor: Tzimisce Clan Newsletter www.warghoul.com [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8rv6g2$1k6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote: > hmmm I'm surprised nobody has commented the fact there's a !Toreador > in Sabbat War. I thought there was only going to be vamps of the four > announced clans in SW? There have never been any official announcements of anything that would be excluded. The announcements have indicated that most of Sabbat would be reprinted. At this point, you should think that all of the Sabbat clans will reappear, with the possible exception of the Tremere Antitribu as they have ceased to exist as a clan in the roleplaying game. The game would grow old pretty quickly if there were only four clans, and White Wolf isn't introducing this Sabbat War expansion so that new players will buy the old WotC stock that is still sitting on distributers shelves, they are introducing it so that people will buy Sabbat War. Carpe Noctem. Lasombra http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8rt3mn$dds$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, bind...@my-deja.com wrote: > Has anyone noticed that (some of) the vamps are getting CHEAPER? > (cost-wise) Does anyone know how costing a vamp goes? Are some > disciplines worth more than others? I remember an article on this > maybe 4 years ago - but that was when ONLY the Base set was out. This was posted less than 10 ten days ago, but I will repost it so that your may read it. http://www.crosswinds.net/~yhtapa/ The Point System: Vampire Construction Formula for Jyhad/V:TES The system used by the Jyhad and V:TES design teams to construct vampires has been fairly well mapped out by the Jyhad community. The following concise and illuminating explanation of this set of unofficial rules was posted by Peter Bajika on the rec.games.trading- cards.jyhad newsgroup, with additional clarifications provided by Carl Pilhatsch and V:TES netrep L. Scott Johnson. This system is best employed in figuring out whether a given vampire is average (points equal to cost), undercosted (points exceed cost) or overcosted (cost exceeds points). The System (Peter Bajika) I don't think anyone is completely sure that there ever was an actual formula used to make the Jyhad set vampires, but as all of them were pretty balanced in terms of abilities vs. capacity, we all came up with one to use as a judge for the cost effectiveness of vampires. The original vampires tended to fit in the following system: Vampires of size 2-4: They got one less point in disciplines/abilities than their age--i.e. a 2 point vampire got one point of skills, a 3 point vampire got 2 points of skills, a 4 point vampire got 3 points of skills. Vampires of size 5-8: They got points disciplines/abilities equal to their age--i.e. a 6 point vampire got 6 points worth of disciplines and special abilities. Vampires of size 9-10: They got one or two points of extra abilities over and above the amount equal to their age--i.e. a 10 point vampire usuaully had 11 or 12 points of skills and special abilities. Caitiff tended to have one discipline and a disadvantage, 2 disciplines and a severe disadvantage, or no disciplines and an advantage (Smudge will be ignored no longer!). Costs: A basic discipline cost 1 point. A superior discipline cost 2 points. +1 bleed or +1 hand damage cost 2 points. A title costs 1 point (many folks adhere to the cost scheme of Primogen=.5 points, Prince=1 point, Justicar=1.5 points, with rounding, but the end result is the same). Most other special abilites cost 1 point. Some special abilities end up costing 2 points to make the formula work. Most clan specific special abilities (like Rake's) are free. For example: Emerson Bridges (8): He has 3 superior disciplines (6 points), one inferior discipline (1 point), and is a Prince (1 point). 6+1+1=8...Emerson's capacity. Agrippina (4): She has one superior discipline (2 points) and one inferior (1 point). 2+1=3...one less than Agrippina's capacity (because she is 4 or younger). Badger (6): 2 superiors (4 points) and 2 inferiors (2 points). 4+2=6. Sebastian Marley (7): 1 superior (2 points), 3 inferiors (3 points), +1 hand damage (2 points). 2+3+2=7. Don Cruez (10): 3 superiors (6 points), 3 inferiors (3 points), Justicar (1 point), special ability (1 point). 6+3+1+1=11...one more than Don's capacity. Anvil (6): 2 superiors (4 points), 3 inferiors (3 points), Primogen (1 point). 4+3+1=8 points! Anvil is the original "broken" vampire--far more effective for his cost than he should to be. Now, this formula was well adhered to in the original set--most vampires fit very well, assuming you are willing to accept that some of the weird special abilities of the huge vampires are worth 2 points to make everything fit well. The expansion vampires (DS and AH) tended to follow this formula as well, but the designers seemed more willing to ignore the formula when they felt like it. For instance, Judah (6) only has 4 points of skills and is a Primogen, making him a point overcosted--he should be a 5 or have one more point of abilities (like inferior obf). With the Sabbat, the designers decided that most special skills were only worth 1 point (even +1 hand damage and +1 bleed, which were worth 2 points in Jyhad, resulting in fairly weak vampires like Zack North, Sebastian Marley, and Adrianne), and out of clan disciplines only cost half. This design decision resulted in the Sabbat vampires being wildly overpowered when compared to their Jyhad counterparts. Compare Sheila Mezarin (6) to Adrianne (6). Sheila has 2 in clan superiors, one in clan inferior, one out of clan inferior, and +1 bleed. Adrianne (6) has 3 in clan inferiors, one out of clan inferior, and +1 bleed. According to the original design system, Sheila has 2 points more in abilities than she should--the result being that Adrianne is completely eclipsed by Sheila. The System for the Sabbat Expansion (Carl Pilhatsch) Ok, in Sabbat it was like follows: 1 point for being a non-Pander 1 point for each normal in-clan discipline 0.5 point for each normal out-of-clan discipline add. 1 point for each superior in-clan discipline, but every 2nd is free! add 0.5 point for each superior out-of-clan discipline 1 point for each vote (bishop 1, archbishop 2, cardinal+priscus 3) 1 point for +1 bleed, +1 intercept, +1 hand damage, +1 stealth, each appropriate cost for each special ability, mostly 1 point In Sabbat, all vamps applied strictly to this formula. For VTES, DS and AH, I don't know for sure, but you can apply the formula and it works well (I don't know if there are any exceptions). Agrippina is ok: 1 for being a non-caitiff, 2 for sup OBF, 1 for inf pot (1+2+1=4). Anvil: 1 non-caitiff, 3 for standard disciplines norm, 2 in-clan sup (1 point, every second free!), 2 out-of-clan normal (1 point) and 1 vote (1 point). (1+3+1+1+1=7) Still overpowered a bit. Some Exceptions from Sabbat (L. Scott Johnson) >In Sabbat, all vamps applied strictly to this formula. Not All (if I understand your formula, and if the WotC spoiler is correct). A brief look at the spoiler lists produced two out-of-line vamps: Caitlin and Sela. Caitlin (capacity: 5, PRO ANI dom aus, Bishop) If she's a country Gangrel Antitribu (Ani, For, Pro): 1 Non-Pander 2 Protean (1 for in-clan +1 for superior) 1 Animalism (1 for in-clan, +0 for 2nd superior) 0.5 Dominate (off-clan) 0.5 Auspex (off-clan) 1 Bishop (1 vote) --- 6.0 If she's city Gangrel Antitribu (Cel, Pro, Obf): 1 Non-Pander 2 Protean (1 for in-clan +1 for superior) 1 Animalism (0.5 for off-clan, +0.5 for superior) 0.5 Dominate (off-clan) 0.5 Auspex (off-clan) 1 Bishop (1 vote) --- 6.0 Sela (capacity: 6, PRE POT cel obt, Bishop, +1 bleed) Brujah Antitribu (Cel, Pot, Pre) 1 Non-Pander 2 Presence (1 for in-clan +1 for superior) 1 Potence (1 for in-clan, +0 for 2nd superior) 1 Celerity (1 for in-clan) 0.5 Obtenebration (off-clan) 1 Bishop (1 vote) 1 +1 bleed --- 7.5 Note One or two of you might recognize this page as an offsite rendering of an article originally found on a Jyhad page called XILE. There is absolutely no truth to this. Please ignore the man behind the curtain. [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > I was wondering if you noticed the little > disclaimer at the bottom. > > * Note: Clan icons for Sabbat clans include a red wax seal, not shown > above, to indicate the clan's membership in the Sabbat. > > I guess they put that there to maybe avoid confusion on the whole > waxseal vs. starcrest issue. ? It was put in there because the icons shown on the page do not include the wax seal that the icons used on the cards themselves do. (Note Mercy's clan symbol, which uses both the wax seal and the starcrest, as it should). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

In article <8rv77l$283$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: > In article <8rv6g2$1k6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote: > > hmmm I'm surprised nobody has commented the fact there's a !Toreador > > in Sabbat War. I thought there was only going to be vamps of the four > > announced clans in SW? > > There have never been any official announcements of anything > that would be excluded. The announcements have indicated that > most of Sabbat would be reprinted. At this point, you should > think that all of the Sabbat clans will reappear, with the > possible exception of the Tremere Antitribu as they have ceased > to exist as a clan in the roleplaying game. No official announcment no. but there's only going to be 4 different precon starters, so you're saying that new players are going to be able to make decks of all clans of Sabbat with SW only? I wouldn't think so really. I'd be surprised to find a bunch of !Ventrues in the Brujah precon! I haven't kept up to date with WoD recently, what happened to !Tremere? > > The game would grow old pretty quickly if there were only > four clans, and White Wolf isn't introducing this Sabbat War > expansion so that new players will buy the old WotC stock > that is still sitting on distributers shelves, they are > introducing it so that people will buy Sabbat War. Hmm you're contradicting yourself here. I agree that they made SW so ne wplayers would buy SW, and why would new players want say 2 vamps from each clan other than the 4 clans (!Brujah, !Venture, Tzimisce, Lasombra)?? That's just a waste of slots. No tot say that they'd need to include discipline cards like Dementation etc. So I very much doubt that Mercy was put in the SW for the new players. You're > Carpe Noctem. > > Lasombra > > http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra > [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8rvdjn$7vg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote: > In article <8rv77l$283$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > In article <8rv6g2$1k6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [snip] > No official announcment no. but there's only going to be 4 different > precon starters, so you're saying that new players are going to be able > to make decks of all clans of Sabbat with SW only? I wouldn't think so > really. I'd be surprised to find a bunch of !Ventrues in the Brujah > precon! > There are going to be 4xPrecon clan decks (PCDs) and boosters available. the boosters will have vampires from all sabbat clans in them (with the possible exception of !Trem). So, yes, a new player could build any clan specific deck with SW cards alone, provided they purchased enough boosters. You obviously won't find !ventrue in the !Brujah PCD, why would you?, you will find !Ventrue in SW boosters though. > I haven't kept up to date with WoD recently, what happened to !Tremere? > > > > > The game would grow old pretty quickly if there were only > > four clans, and White Wolf isn't introducing this Sabbat War > > expansion so that new players will buy the old WotC stock > > that is still sitting on distributers shelves, they are > > introducing it so that people will buy Sabbat War. > > Hmm you're contradicting yourself here. I agree that they made SW so ne > wplayers would buy SW, and why would new players want say 2 vamps from > each clan other than the 4 clans (!Brujah, !Venture, Tzimisce, > Lasombra)?? That's just a waste of slots. No tot say that they'd need > to include discipline cards like Dementation etc. So I very much doubt > that Mercy was put in the SW for the new players. > Um, new players would want vampires from other clans to build decks for those clans. I think you may be mistakenly thinking that all SW cards are to be related to the 4 PCD clans. SW will contain a substantial reprint of the Sabbat (including dementation cardsand !Malks) along with an undisclosed number of new cards. One of which is a vampire called Mercy. To recap: New players can buy the PCDs and boosters. If they buy boosters, they will find a greater variety of clans and skills available to them. I think this is the information that most people were assuming. BTW I think Mercy looks pretty damn cool. matt. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8rvdjn$7vg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote: >I haven't kept up to date with WoD recently, >what happened to the !Tremere? Read the Tremere Clan Novel. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.00101...@red.csi.cam.ac.uk>, ja...@zephyr.org.uk says... > >On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Ethan Burrow wrote: > >Re: Mercy > >> YES!! She's a "bleeder" baby! :-) > >Thankfully, they're both (pre and dom) at inferior. > >*sighs with relief* > Is the proper term "thankfully" or is it "mercifully"? Greg

"The Lasombra" <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:8s0e14$4ub$1...@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8rvdjn$7vg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote: > >I haven't kept up to date with WoD recently, > >what happened to the !Tremere? > > Read the Tremere Clan Novel. > The clan novel's a little vague about the actual happeneings, but it does say that the Tremere Antitribu are all more or less extinct. I've heard the story, does anyone know where it's printed? It's also not in the Tremere clanbook (different from the novel), though the story of the birth of !Tremere & why only they have gargoyles and other cool stuf is in there. -Brian

Brian Reed <leub...@austin.rr.com> wrote > The clan novel's a little vague about the actual happeneings, but it does > say that the Tremere Antitribu are all more or less extinct. I've heard the > story, does anyone know where it's printed? Transylvania Chronicles IV has a story regarding the demise of the antitribu... find a roleplayer and ask to borrow it, or ask Kelly Nine to sum it up for you. (Hi, Kelly...) Note, however, much of White Wolf's RPG products lately have prefatory notes encouraging players to disregard their history or current events in favor of their (the players') own stories and events, if doing so helps establish a better continuity. I've heard about three different stories on "where the Tremere antitribu went"... -Matt

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 03:07:48 GMT, "Brian Reed" <leub...@austin.rr.com> wrote: >> >what happened to the !Tremere? >> >> Read the Tremere Clan Novel. >> >The clan novel's a little vague about the actual happeneings, but it does >say that the Tremere Antitribu are all more or less extinct. I've heard the >story, does anyone know where it's printed? It's also not in the Tremere >clanbook (different from the novel), though the story of the birth of >!Tremere & why only they have gargoyles and other cool stuf is in there. The whole story is written in this book for V:TM : Nights of Prophecy Hope this help, Remy Auclair

In article <8rvf91$9if$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, mgre...@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <8rvdjn$7vg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote: > > In article <8rv77l$283$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > In article <8rv6g2$1k6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > [snip] > > No official announcment no. but there's only going to be 4 different > > precon starters, so you're saying that new players are going to be > able > > to make decks of all clans of Sabbat with SW only? I wouldn't think so > > really. I'd be surprised to find a bunch of !Ventrues in the Brujah > > precon! > > > There are going to be 4xPrecon clan decks (PCDs) and boosters available. > the boosters will have vampires from all sabbat clans in them (with the > possible exception of !Trem). So, yes, a new player could build any clan > specific deck with SW cards alone, provided they purchased enough > boosters. You obviously won't find !ventrue in the !Brujah PCD, why > would you?, you will find !Ventrue in SW boosters though. This is what I don't agree on. because I don' thtink there will be like 10+ vamps of !Toreador in the boosters so that you can actually make a ! Toreador deck by buying enough of boosters. If this was the case the boosters would need to have a a huge variety of cards, and SW isn't big enough to include so many cards in the boosters. So I assume there will be only 1-3 vamps of each clan in the boosters that doesn't belong to the PCD clans, and you can't make a clan specific deck with that. So why are they then included? To make the old players happy of course. Thus, SW is not entirely made for the new players like Lasombra claims. > > > I haven't kept up to date with WoD recently, what happened to [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8s0e14$4ub$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] I only wanted a short one-line eexplanation. I don't have time to read a whole novel (as interesting as they are) just to find out this. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > No official announcment no. but there's only going to be 4 different > precon starters, Yes. There are going to be 4 pre-con starters. There are also going to be lots of cards in boosters. There was no announcement that any Sabbat clan was going to be excluded from the full set presented in the boosters. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > Toreador deck by buying enough of boosters. If this was the case the > boosters would need to have a a huge variety of cards, and SW isn't big > enough to include so many cards in the boosters. The boosters have, from all accounts, a huge variety of cards. Just like the boosters in V:TES did. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > I only wanted a short one-line eexplanation. I don't have time to read > a whole novel (as interesting as they are) just to find out this. A short one-line explanation of what happened is not possible, as there are many subtle complexities to the entire issue. Short one-line explanation: Stuff happened. [ quoted text not captured ]

cantila wrote: > This is what I don't agree on. because I don' thtink there will be like > 10+ vamps of !Toreador in the boosters so that you can actually make a ! > Toreador deck by buying enough of boosters. If this was the case the > boosters would need to have a a huge variety of cards, and SW isn't big > enough to include so many cards in the boosters. So I assume there will > be only 1-3 vamps of each clan in the boosters that doesn't belong to > the PCD clans, and you can't make a clan specific deck with that. So > why are they then included? To make the old players happy of course. > Thus, SW is not entirely made for the new players like Lasombra claims. That is certainly not my perception. If it were true, this expansion would likely be a major failure, I think. I do not believe that White Wolf would sell enough of these boxes to make a profit if players with no appreciable stock of The Sabbat had a reason to buy them (and I thought such players were exactly the reason to print Sabbat Wars - to relieve the unsatisified demand for The Sabbat). I can't see it being much reason to get 4 of 9 Sabbat Clans and a little extra variety on certain library cards. Maybe; I guess it depends on what the library cards are, I suppose. But my understanding was that this expansion is the size of The Sabbat or bigger, not even counting the cards only available in precons. The Sabbat printed 11 different vampires for each of the Sabbat clans. So explain to me why they can't print at least as many in SW? Fred

In article <8s2ahj$lme$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote: > So I assume there will be only 1-3 vamps of each clan in the boosters > that doesn't belong to the PCD clans, I can assure you that you assume incorrectly. That's all I'm sayin'. Regards, Noal McDonald Prince/Priscus of Metro Detroit, MI -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 18:12:12 GMT, cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote: >This is what I don't agree on. because I don' thtink there will be like >10+ vamps of !Toreador in the boosters so that you can actually make a ! >Toreador deck by buying enough of boosters. If this was the case the >boosters would need to have a a huge variety of cards, and SW isn't big >enough to include so many cards in the boosters. So I assume there will >be only 1-3 vamps of each clan in the boosters that doesn't belong to >the PCD clans, and you can't make a clan specific deck with that. So >why are they then included? To make the old players happy of course. >Thus, SW is not entirely made for the new players like Lasombra claims. Keeping in mind that everyone is making a bunch of wild-ass guesses here, since none of us know what's actually in Sabbat War yet and won't until it's officially released... Sabbat War has been advertised as a Standalone Expansion, meaning that you'll be able to play V:TES by purchasing Sabbat War and nothing else; but if you have earlier expansions of V:TES, Sabbat War will have stuff in it for you too. I cannot believe that White Wolf would release a standalone expansion and not put enough vampires in to make a full clan deck of any clan in the expansion. They just AREN'T that stupid. Why include only 3 !Toreador and piss off all the new players who thought they could play the game with only Sabbat War? No, I just can't see it working out that way - their marketing department is smarter than that. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <3bf9us0l64nc07kh0...@4ax.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] I hope you're right =) Of course I'd want to have 10+ vamps of all Sabbat clans released than just 4 of them, and maybe this is true. But reading Inquest #65 it says that the expansion is going to be of more than 300 cards. Assuming they're right you come to the conclusion it's less than 400 cards and Sabbat expansion was of 402 cards. So SW is smaller, but if they leave out !Tremere I guess there could be some 11 vamps of all other Sabbat clans, so there's hope :) However I think ! Tremere will be in the set, why would they else have made an icon for the clan on WW's homepage and confuse new players to the game? I hope you guys are right, I never thought of this option since they didn't make precons for all clans and the discussions on deja that I've read have assumed that dementation for example wouldn't be in the SW. On the other hand, since Tailor has dementation it could hint that it's going to be included in the game. It's all speculation, but it's fun, isn't it? :P > > "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." > - C. Darwin, 1871 > [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8s2g51$qti$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > In article <8s2ahj$lme$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote: > > So I assume there will be only 1-3 vamps of each clan in the boosters > > that doesn't belong to the PCD clans, > > I can assure you that you assume incorrectly. That's all I'm sayin'. > I believe your word, so I'm happy to hear about it :) Don't amke me disappointed now hehe > Regards, > Noal McDonald > Prince/Priscus of Metro Detroit, MI > -- > "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from > what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, > of pure sons of bitches." > --Faulkner, "The Mansion" > [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.0010111944100.17636- 100...@green.csi.cam.ac.uk>, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > > Toreador deck by buying enough of boosters. If this was the case the > > boosters would need to have a a huge variety of cards, and SW isn't big > > enough to include so many cards in the boosters. > > The boosters have, from all accounts, a huge variety of cards. > > Just like the boosters in V:TES did. But the boosters in SW has only 11 cards eahc of what I've heard...that makes a LOT of boosters to buy :( But I'm glad I found it out so I order more than I had planned at first. > > -- > James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D > "And all the while I'm thinking things that I can never share with him. > I'm a bundle of confusion, yet it has a strange appeal. Did it all begin > with him and the way he makes me feel?" > > [ quoted text not captured ]

cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote: > If this was the case the boosters would need to have a a huge > variety of cards, and SW isn't big enough to include so many > cards in the boosters. I have one other question: Where the hell did you come up with this B.S.?!? Y'know the old rule about "assume"? I'm certainly able to admit to being an ass whenever the mood suits me, but I'd rather not have it thrust upon me. Jesus f'n christ on a pogo stick. The quote in Derek's sig has got to be the most accurate insight into human nature that the world has ever seen. Noal -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <39E4BD66...@netcom.com>, fre...@netcom.com wrote: > cantila wrote: > > > This is what I don't agree on. because I don' thtink there will be like > > 10+ vamps of !Toreador in the boosters so that you can actually make a ! > > Toreador deck by buying enough of boosters. If this was the case the > > boosters would need to have a a huge variety of cards, and SW isn't big > > enough to include so many cards in the boosters. So I assume there will > > be only 1-3 vamps of each clan in the boosters that doesn't belong to > > the PCD clans, and you can't make a clan specific deck with that. So > > why are they then included? To make the old players happy of course. > > Thus, SW is not entirely made for the new players like Lasombra claims. > > That is certainly not my perception. If it were true, this expansion would > likely be a major failure, I think. I do not believe that White Wolf would > sell enough of these boxes to make a profit if players with no appreciable > stock of The Sabbat had a reason to buy them (and I thought such players > were exactly the reason to print Sabbat Wars - to relieve the unsatisified > demand for The Sabbat). I can't see it being much reason to get 4 of 9 > Sabbat Clans and a little extra variety on certain library cards. Maybe; > I guess it depends on what the library cards are, I suppose. > > But my understanding was that this expansion is the size of The Sabbat or > bigger, not even counting the cards only available in precons. The Sabbat > printed 11 different vampires for each of the Sabbat clans. So explain to > me why they can't print at least as many in SW? > > Fred According to Inquest #65 the set will have 300+ cards..and Sabbat had 405(?) so SW should be smaller because if it exceeded 400 cards you'äd think they'd say "more than 400 cards" and not "more than 300 cards". [ quoted text not captured ]

> This is what I don't agree on. because I don' think there will be like > 10+ vamps of !Toreador in the boosters Care to explain WHY you think this way? Any proof? Didn't think so. > So I assume there will > be only 1-3 vamps of each clan in the boosters that doesn't belong to > the PCD clans, Once again, do you have ANY PROOF? Nope. Why don't you have any proof? Maybe.... cause the set isn't out yet? So without proof, you are just flapping your gums to the wind and causing a big stink over nothing. Lets all relax and enjoy the time we have before SW. I know its killing all of us since we haven't had new cards for 4 years - but just relax. Isn't it silly to get all worked up over something we have no proof on? Its like saying - Man, if they print the card listed below, I'll never play this stupid game again!! Name - Assamites WIN AGAIN! Free Action at +10 stealth requiring only an Assamite. You oust your prey and gain 50 pool. Untap at the end of this action. I personally do not see anything wrong with this card. :) Of course, I'm just kidding. See... there is no reason to panic UNTIL we see this card printed. And I for one have enough faith in the developers to know that things like this will never be printed. No reason to get upset over something that "might happen". Just my random thoughts, Todd Banister Prince of Atlanta Scribe of the Assamites

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3bf9us0l64nc07kh0...@4ax.com... > cantila wrote: > >This is what I don't agree on. because I don' thtink there will be like > >10+ vamps of !Toreador in the boosters so that you can actually make a ! > >Toreador deck by buying enough of boosters. If this was the case the [snip] > Keeping in mind that everyone is making a bunch of wild-ass guesses > here, since none of us know what's actually in Sabbat War yet and > won't until it's officially released... Yup. It would be great if we could just shelve the rest of this discussion about whether or not there will be enough !Toreador or whatever until we actually see the cards. And "wild-ass guesses" is right... :) Although I suppose a few people do *actually* know what is in it, but they aren't allowed to say. Sweet sweet playtesting. It would drive me crazy, trying not to respond to all the crazy guesses. Especially about the !Tremere. "I heard that instead of any !Tremere, they're going to put in a bunch more Lasombra, and give them a pile of new clantoys, and reprint the old Thoughts Betrayed as a Lasombra-only card!" Sheesh. So my point is, no one that can say anything knows, and we're probably better off just anxiously anticipating it with closed mouths. Unless you breathe through your mouth. Mouth-breather. > I cannot believe that White Wolf would release a standalone expansion > and not put enough vampires in to make a full clan deck of any clan in > the expansion. They just AREN'T that stupid. Why include only 3 Well...there is already the whole Promogate fiasco. Hehe. Xian -- I'd tell the world and save my soul, But rain falls down and I feel cold. A cold that sleeps within my heart, It tears the earth and sun apart. --_Shellshock_, New Order www.waste.org/~xian

cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote: > However I think ! Tremere will be in the set, why would they > else have made an icon for the clan on WW's homepage and > confuse new players to the game? The !Tremere icon is there because the clan was printed with Sabbat. Note that the Camarilla clan icons are there also, but they will also not be re-printed with the Sabbat War expansion. Even if White Wolf doesn't reprint a particular clan, they still need to provide definitions for the older clans so the new players don't get too confused when I show up with cards from prior expansions. Oh, and sorry about the earlier acid remarks. This week has been a very long, frustrating month...and it's only Wednesday. Noal -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:Pine.SOL.4.21.001011...@green.csi.cam.ac.uk... > On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > > I only wanted a short one-line eexplanation. I don't have time to read > > a whole novel (as interesting as they are) just to find out this. > > A short one-line explanation of what happened is not possible, as there > are many subtle complexities to the entire issue. > > Short one-line explanation: > > Stuff happened. Hahahahhaah!!!!! I haven't read any of the novels, but what it has basically been described to me as is: One night, everyone woke up, and all the !Tremere were just a bunch of ashes, the most rumored explanation being a bigass Tremere spell/ritual that was finally completed. Happy? [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <W64F5.1465$kX2.1...@news.uswest.net>, "Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote: > > "James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message > news:Pine.SOL.4.21.001011...@green.csi.cam.ac.uk... > > On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > > > I only wanted a short one-line eexplanation. I don't have time to read > > > a whole novel (as interesting as they are) just to find out this. > > > > A short one-line explanation of what happened is not possible, as there > > are many subtle complexities to the entire issue. > > > > Short one-line explanation: > > > > Stuff happened. > > Hahahahhaah!!!!! > > I haven't read any of the novels, but what it has basically been described to > me as is: > > One night, everyone woke up, and all the !Tremere were just a bunch of ashes, > the most rumored explanation being a bigass Tremere spell/ritual that was > finally completed. > > Happy? Well far more descriptive than any previous posts, which should say a whole lot about them :P But thanx. > > Xian > > -- > I'd tell the world and save my soul, But rain falls down and I feel cold. > A cold that sleeps within my heart, It tears the earth and sun apart. > --_Shellshock_, New Order > www.waste.org/~xian > > [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <G34F5.59$XQ2....@eagle.america.net>, "Todd Banister" <T_Ban...@Premier-Lending.com> wrote: > > This is what I don't agree on. because I don' think there will be like > > 10+ vamps of !Toreador in the boosters > [ quoted text not captured ] I'll make an attempt as to why I thought this. In Inquest #65 they say the set will have "more than 300 cards" which ought to be less than Sabbat's 405. !Tremere should be included in SW because they have included their icon on WW's page. The precons ought to have 12 vamps each in them to make the playable, right? So to me it would be weird if the other Sabbat clans didn't have 12 as well. That makes 12*9 = 108 vampires, or 120 if you count on 12 Panders. I think I saw LSJ or someone else with insight saying that 30 (or was it 33%?) of the cards in SW were going to be vamps. So that leaves 216-240 other cards, which is about 55-80 less cards than in the Sabbat expansion. A noticable difference to me, but I guess it's workable. But why didn't they then make precons for all Sabbat clans, but only 4? Maybe it's for production costs, but then this system will make it harder to acquire a full set of a Sabbat clan other than the 4 precons, which in turn means that the rarity of the other vamp clans would be higher since I can easily get Lucity by buying a Lasombra starter, but I couldn't count on getitng a specific !Gangrel if I bought a booster. To me that's pretty weird. Although I don't exactly complain if it was like this either. I'd be happy to have more vamps for the other Sabbat clans :) However some months ago wasn't there was also a discussion where Steve Wieck said that after SW they might make another Sabbat to cover clans that wasn't gonne be precons, or else they'd go for the Independents? [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8s2i5g$sm8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote: > > If this was the case the boosters would need to have a a huge > > variety of cards, and SW isn't big enough to include so many > > cards in the boosters. > > I have one other question: > Where the hell did you come up with this B.S.?!? > > Y'know the old rule about "assume"? I'm certainly able to admit to being > an ass whenever the mood suits me, but I'd rather not have it thrust > upon me. Jesus f'n christ on a pogo stick. The quote in Derek's sig has > got to be the most accurate insight into human nature that the world has > ever seen. > > Noal And where the hell do you come up with the opposite opinion?? Because you too assume things (that I'm wrong for example). > -- > "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from > what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, > of pure sons of bitches." > --Faulkner, "The Mansion" > [ quoted text not captured ]

when I show up with cards from prior expansions. > > Oh, and sorry about the earlier acid remarks. This week has been a very > long, frustrating month...and it's only Wednesday. > > Noal That's okey, I don't like the attitude here sometimes but at least you apologized. Hmm must be a very long _week_ indeed if it's a "frustrating month" hehe. [ quoted text not captured ]

>Name - Assamites WIN AGAIN! >Free Action at +10 stealth requiring only an Assamite. >You oust your prey and gain 50 pool. Untap at the end of this action. I D.I. that. Have fun with the malkavians. :)

gonna do cantilla a favor here since most others havent been so gracious with information. According to Nights of Prophecy: In '98 all of the tremere anti's went to a supposed secret meeting, but they never came back. Now if you know about Tremere himself, you know that he's been engaged in a spirit war with Salout, the antedelluvian he sucked dry to become a vampire. Well in the latest battle with Salout's soul, Tremere got roughed up pretty badly so he had to inhabit the body of a 4th generation tremere to keep his soul alive. Tremere then called all the tremere anti's to the main tremere chantry and ashed them all, the reason why isn't clear. Hope that works for ya. Troile [ quoted text not captured ]

cantila wrote: > makes 12*9 = 108 vampires, or 120 if you count on 12 Panders. I think I > saw LSJ or someone else with insight saying that 30 (or was it 33%?) of > the cards in SW were going to be vamps. So that leaves 216-240 other I can assure you it wasn't me. Perhaps you are mis-remembering my statement that the SW booster packs would have 3 vampires and 8 library cards each (with 1 in a 100 having just 2 vamps and 9 library cards). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > But the boosters in SW has only 11 cards eahc of what I've heard...that > makes a LOT of boosters to buy :( With a downgrading in price to compensate. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > According to Inquest #65 the set will have 300+ cards..and Sabbat had > 405(?) so SW should be smaller because if it exceeded 400 cards you'äd > think they'd say "more than 400 cards" and not "more than 300 cards". Magazines Get Things Wrong (tm). [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > > Y'know the old rule about "assume"? I'm certainly able to admit to > being > > an ass whenever the mood suits me, but I'd rather not have it thrust > > upon me. Jesus f'n christ on a pogo stick. The quote in Derek's sig > has > > got to be the most accurate insight into human nature that the world > has > > ever seen. > > > > Noal > > And where the hell do you come up with the opposite opinion?? Because > you too assume things (that I'm wrong for example). From what has been written on the newsgroup, there are a number of NJL players involved in the playtesting. Noal is an NJL player. Connect the dots for yourself. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <39E5A629...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > cantila wrote: > > makes 12*9 = 108 vampires, or 120 if you count on 12 Panders. I think I > > saw LSJ or someone else with insight saying that 30 (or was it 33%?) of > > the cards in SW were going to be vamps. So that leaves 216-240 other > > I can assure you it wasn't me. > > Perhaps you are mis-remembering my statement that the SW booster packs > would have 3 vampires and 8 library cards each (with 1 in a 100 having > just 2 vamps and 9 library cards). Hmm it could possibly be that. If there's going to be 12 vamps of each clan, then it means the set will be in the upper level of the 300-400 range of cards. I don't think there will be 12 Panders though, that seems unnecessary to me. But I really do hope they include !Tremere, else it will make the clan less fun than the other existing clans because they have the least variety (or wille ventually have when/if Final Nihgts comes out) which would be a shame, because they're one of the most fun to play :) I'm starting to think there will be 10+ vamps of all Sabbat clans now :) But I think it's bad that some clans are going to be harder to get than the others (PCD vs Booster clans) if this is the case. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > Hmm it could possibly be that. If there's going to be 12 vamps of each > clan, then it means the set will be in the upper level of the 300-400 > range of cards. I don't think there will be 12 Panders though, that > seems unnecessary to me. Why? The Pander are a clan just the same as any other in Sabbat, and a perfectly playable one. [ quoted text not captured ]

Greg Faulkner wrote in message ... >In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.00101...@red.csi.cam.ac.uk>, >ja...@zephyr.org.uk says... >> >>On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Ethan Burrow wrote: >> >>Re: Mercy >> >>> YES!! She's a "bleeder" baby! :-) >> >>Thankfully, they're both (pre and dom) at inferior. >> >>*sighs with relief* >> > >Is the proper term "thankfully" or is it "mercifully"? > >Greg > Go watch some football, dirty Greg. BTW, Ethan called her a bleeder. Is she a hemophiliac? Or did Ethan mispell "bleater" as in one who bleats? Mike Ooi Insane Prince of Houston, TX Home of the functionally-named Houston Texans NFL Team sh...@texas.net

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Mike Ooi wrote: > BTW, Ethan called her a bleeder. Is she a hemophiliac? Or did Ethan mispell > "bleater" as in one who bleats? That's spelled "sheep". [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray wrote: >I cannot believe that White Wolf would release a standalone expansion and not put enough vampires in to make a full clan deck of any clan in the expansion. They just AREN'T that stupid. Why include only 3 !Toreador and piss off all the new players who thought they could play the game with only Sabbat War? Now Derek, you know you don't have to play a full clan deck to play the game. New players will still get to play the game with only Sabbat War, and they will all be able to feel utter despair when I play my "Nuttin' Butt Dark Sovereigns" deck. >No, I just can't see it working out that way - their marketing department is smarter than that. Now Derek, you know that marketing departments aren't smart. Think about this example: When Coors put its slogan, "Turn It Loose," into Spanish, it read as "Suffer From Diarrhea." > >-- Derek > >"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." > - C. Darwin, 1871 Now Derek, you know that Charles Darwin was a degenerate pervert who wanted to justify his existence outside of the presence of the Almighty DeathBuddha, Destroyer of the Cosmos. Do we want to hear what his dirty dirty mouth or his dirty dirty hand had to say? [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.0010121520320.23305- 100...@yellow.csi.cam.ac.uk>, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > > Hmm it could possibly be that. If there's going to be 12 vamps of each > > clan, then it means the set will be in the upper level of the 300- 400 > > range of cards. I don't think there will be 12 Panders though, that > > seems unnecessary to me. > > Why? The Pander are a clan just the same as any other in Sabbat, and a > perfectly playable one. I wouldn't say they're as perfectly playable as all others though, and they're not exactly the same as all other clans since they have only one clan-specific card and no HG's for example or any titled vampires. So there IS a difference. Not saying they're not playable but I'd not cry any tears if there was only 6 Panders instead of 12 (I do hope they will include some Panders!) because I think another 12 is a little unnecessary, at least compared to the necessity for the other clans to get another 12. It's just my opinion of course, but I think it's clear they're not "just the same as any other in Sabbat" for the things I pointed out above. > > -- > James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D > "And all the while I'm thinking things that I can never share with him. > I'm a bundle of confusion, yet it has a strange appeal. Did it all begin > with him and the way he makes me feel?" > > [ quoted text not captured ]

I forgot to add they don't have any specific clan disciplines either. [ quoted text not captured ]

cantila wrote: > In Inquest #65 they say the set will have "more than 300 cards" which > ought to be less than Sabbat's 405. To elaborate on that "more than 300 cards" statement: The boosters will be composed of 11 cards chosen randomly from an assortment of exactly 300 cards. The preconstructed starters will contain some cards that are not found in the booster pack assortment and some cards that are. Net result: "more than 300 cards" [ quoted text not captured ]

cantila wrote: > In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.0010121520320.23305- > 100...@yellow.csi.cam.ac.uk>, > James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > > On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > > > Hmm it could possibly be that. If there's going to be 12 vamps of > > > each clan, then it means the set will be in the upper level of the > > > 300-400 range of cards. I don't think there will be 12 Panders > > > though, that seems unnecessary to me. > > > > Why? The Pander are a clan just the same as any other in Sabbat, and > > a perfectly playable one. > > I wouldn't say they're as perfectly playable as all others though, and > they're not exactly the same as all other clans since they have only > one clan-specific card and no HG's for example or any titled vampires. Actually, 2 clan-specific cards I can think of: Legacy of Pander and Ghouled Street Thug. The clan is also mentioned on Unacceptable Appearance, although that doesn't really count for much obviously. Anyway, though your point is still good, it nonetheless seems like the intention was to make them a full, pretty much normal clan in The Sabbat. Like all the other Sabbat Clans, there were 11 Panders. I don't think the number was coincidental. > So there IS a difference. Not saying they're not playable but I'd not > cry any tears if there was only 6 Panders instead of 12 (I do hope they > will include some Panders!) because I think another 12 is a little > unnecessary, at least compared to the necessity for the other clans to > get another 12. It's just my opinion of course, but I think it's clear > they're not "just the same as any other in Sabbat" for the things I > pointed out above. Personally, I'd like to see them get their fair share. I've often felt and I've heard other players remark that it isn't the large Vampires, such as the Vykos, the Little Tailors of Prague, the Tallys, and the Lucitas of the game which are lacking for folks to build decks. It's the little guys in all the clans. The four-caps with the exact two disciplines you're looking for or better still a single major discipline that doesn't yet exist in a three or four cap vampire that a lot of folks are crying for. The Pander are great for filling some of these things in, being as how the designers are (or were in the past, at least) fairly intent on providing the other clans with a broad, even range of minions - which translates to only about three or so vamps of four capacity or less. Fred

In article <39E64118...@netcom.com>, fre...@netcom.com wrote: > cantila wrote: > > > In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.0010121520320.23305- > > 100...@yellow.csi.cam.ac.uk>, > > James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > > > On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > > > > Hmm it could possibly be that. If there's going to be 12 vamps of > > > > each clan, then it means the set will be in the upper level of the > > > > 300-400 range of cards. I don't think there will be 12 Panders > > > > though, that seems unnecessary to me. > > > > > > Why? The Pander are a clan just the same as any other in Sabbat, and > > > a perfectly playable one. > > > > I wouldn't say they're as perfectly playable as all others though, and > > they're not exactly the same as all other clans since they have only > > one clan-specific card and no HG's for example or any titled vampires. > > Actually, 2 clan-specific cards I can think of: Legacy of Pander and > Ghouled Street Thug. The clan is also mentioned on Unacceptable > Appearance, although that doesn't really count for much obviously. When I said clan.specific I was thinking of cards that requires a Pander to be played, like Ghouled Street Thug. LoP can after all be played by anyone, although it would usually be pointless unless you have one yourself. > > Anyway, though your point is still good, it nonetheless seems like the > intention was to make them a full, pretty much normal clan in The > Sabbat. Like all the other Sabbat Clans, there were 11 Panders. I > don't think the number was coincidental. I don't think so either, after all they're a clan, so you should at least have a base to make a complete Pander deck from if you wanted. But now when we got 11 I don't see the need for another 12 frankly. It's better to make low caps for the other clans instead. My opinion is that, say 6 more Panders are sufficient. I rather see more vamps of the other clans than many Panders on the cost of the other clans. [ quoted text not captured ]

cantila wrote: > In article <39E64118...@netcom.com>, I wrote: > > Personally, I'd like to see them get their fair share. I've often felt > > and I've heard other players remark that it isn't the large Vampires, > > such as the Vykos, the Little Tailors of Prague, the Tallys, and the > > Lucitas of the game which are lacking for folks to build decks. It's > > the little guys in all the clans. The four-caps with the exact two > > disciplines you're looking for or better still a single major discipline > > > that doesn't yet exist in a three or four cap vampire that a lot of > folks > > are crying for. The Pander are great for filling some of these things > > in, being as how the designers are (or were in the past, at least) > fairly > > intent on providing the other clans with a broad, even range of > > minions - which translates to only about three or so vamps of four > > capacity or less. > > It's better to make low caps for the other clans instead. My opinion is > that, say 6 more Panders are sufficient. I rather see more vamps of the > other clans than many Panders on the cost of the other clans. I would agree if I thought they'd actually *do* that. But they haven't in the past, as I pointed out, and I don't believe they will in the future. Thus, I'd rather see the fair number of Panders rather than printing many (evenly distributed) vamps of the other clans at the cost of the Pander. Fred

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > > Why? The Pander are a clan just the same as any other in Sabbat, and > a > > perfectly playable one. > > I wouldn't say they're as perfectly playable as all others though, I see your unsubstantiated ponderings and raise you one Legacy of Pander. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.001012...@yellow.csi.cam.ac.uk>, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > > According to Inquest #65 the set will have 300+ cards..and Sabbat had > > 405(?) so SW should be smaller because if it exceeded 400 cards you'=E4d > > think they'd say "more than 400 cards" and not "more than 300 cards". > > Magazines Get Things Wrong (tm). =20 > Inquest _always_ gets things wrong. In fact, it is about as reliable a source of information as National Enquirer (except without the jiggly chested eye-candy...). matt. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8s3m3m$pbi$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, tr0i...@my-deja.com wrote: > gonna do cantilla a favor here since most others havent been so > gracious with information. > > According to Nights of Prophecy: In '98 all of the tremere anti's went > to a supposed secret meeting, but they never came back. Now if you > know about Tremere himself, you know that he's been engaged in a spirit > war with Salout, the antedelluvian he sucked dry to become a vampire. > Well in the latest battle with Salout's soul, Tremere got roughed up > pretty badly so he had to inhabit the body of a 4th generation tremere > to keep his soul alive. Tremere then called all the tremere anti's to > the main tremere chantry and ashed them all, the reason why* isn't clear. > > Hope that works for ya. > > Troile > *[a] he was hungry [b] he had read Matt Green's many perceptive comments on the Tremere/ !tremere and thought he would do the VTES community at large a favour by removing any and all possible temptations to use the buggers for constructing tournament-losing decks. Legbiter, STILL experimenting with the wretched wizards despite getting caned again on Monday night, and not even by an efficient deck. Bah. [ quoted text not captured ]

"cantila" <rogc...@student.luth.se> a écrit dans le message news: 8s5hca$c98$1...@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <39E64118...@netcom.com>, > fre...@netcom.com wrote: > > cantila wrote: > > > > > In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.0010121520320.23305- > > > 100...@yellow.csi.cam.ac.uk>, > > > James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > > > > On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > > > > The Pander are a clan just the same as any other in Sabbat, and > > > > a perfectly playable one. > > > > > > I wouldn't say they're as perfectly playable as all others though, > and > > > they're not exactly the same as all other clans since they have only > > > one clan-specific card and no HG's for example or any titled > vampires. > > > > Actually, 2 clan-specific cards I can think of: Legacy of Pander and > > Ghouled Street Thug. The clan is also mentioned on Unacceptable > > Appearance, although that doesn't really count for much obviously. Don't they lack something big ?? Pander hunting ground WANTED !

"Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote in message news:8s6raf$qbo$1...@news2.isdnet.net... > Don't they lack something big ?? Pander hunting ground WANTED ! Bah. Who needs a hunting ground when you have Taste of Vitae? :) [ quoted text not captured ]

<legb...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8s6pem$aqq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com... > [b] he had read Matt Green's many perceptive comments on the Tremere/ > !tremere and thought he would do the VTES community at large a favour by > removing any and all possible temptations to use the buggers for > constructing tournament-losing decks. Well...I'm still thinking about it, but I think it would be just *wrong* for me to play something other than Tremere in the upcoming tournament...the first in Minnesota in...ages, if not the first. Not making any promises here, but there's at least an even chance...I wasn't going to reply to the other thread about this, but now I have to. > Legbiter, STILL experimenting with the wretched wizards despite getting > caned again on Monday night, and not even by an efficient deck. Bah. You have to make sure of what you're doing with the Tremere. They can either be very toolbox, or they have to be very focused, moreso than many other clans. And I'd still mainly avoid intercept... [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <1mDF5.324$_24.3...@news.uswest.net>, "Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote: > > "Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote in message news:8s6raf$qbo$1...@news2.isdnet.net... > > Don't they lack something big ?? Pander hunting ground WANTED ! > > Bah. Who needs a hunting ground when you have Taste of Vitae? > > :) > > Xian > > -- > I'd tell the world and save my soul, But rain falls down and I feel cold. > A cold that sleeps within my heart, It tears the earth and sun apart. > --_Shellshock_, New Order > www.waste.org/~xian > You cannot use taste of vitae if you're going to torpor :)~ [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.0010131051470.11892- 100...@orange.csi.cam.ac.uk>, James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > > > Why? The Pander are a clan just the same as any other in Sabbat, and > > a > > > perfectly playable one. > > > > I wouldn't say they're as perfectly playable as all others though, > > I see your unsubstantiated ponderings and raise you one Legacy of Pander. And that's about it. ONE working strategy doesn't make a clan as perfectly playable as other clans. If anything, it shows that the clan sucks if it has to be dependant on one single card. > > -- > James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D > "And all the while I'm thinking things that I can never share with him. > I'm a bundle of confusion, yet it has a strange appeal. Did it all begin > with him and the way he makes me feel?" > > [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <39E31ECC...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > > > I was wondering if you noticed the little > > disclaimer at the bottom. > > > > * Note: Clan icons for Sabbat clans include a red wax seal, not shown > > above, to indicate the clan's membership in the Sabbat. > > > > I guess they put that there to maybe avoid confusion on the whole > > waxseal vs. starcrest issue. > > ? > It was put in there because the icons shown on the page do not include > the wax seal that the icons used on the cards themselves do. > > (Note Mercy's clan symbol, which uses both the wax seal and the starcrest, > as it should). There you have it. XZ [ quoted text not captured ]

"cantila" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message news:8s749u$j6m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com... > And that's about it. ONE working strategy doesn't make a clan as > perfectly playable as other clans. If anything, it shows that the clan > sucks if it has to be dependant on one single card. The thing about the Panders is, though...they're not meant to be cohesive as a clan. They're all the Caitiff from the Sabbat who got themselves some political power and said, "Hey, we're a clan now! Respect [our] author-ah-tee!" They shouldn't (for flavor reasons) have similar disciplines, and if that makes them less playable as a clan, so be it. You don't need to build decks around just one clan. Sometimes it works that way, other times, you're better off going cross-clan, right? [ quoted text not captured ]

> > > You cannot use taste of vitae if you're going to torpor :)~ > You cannot receive blood from a hunting ground if you are in torpor and you cannot play a hunting ground if your required vampire (i.e. the vampire whose clan is required to play the card) is in torpor. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8s7emj$so8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] But if you play a Pander deck you're likely to want to stay out of fights. And use S:CE when in any or maneuver away, then Taste is worthless while HG is good. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8s7f1k$sv1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] First of all, there isn't enough presense among the panders to fill an uncontrolled region. Only two have presense and only one other has protean. So you would be foolish to clog your deck with Magesties or Earth Melds. So unless you double up on Panders (another risky proposition as you need alot of them) or bring non-Pander presence vampires into your crypt (also risky as they do not benifit from a LOP) then you really are planning on hand-jamming in combat. Second, there is no general theme or sense of self-identity (beyond being a pander) to the Panders to give them a communal hunting location. Each is diverse and has his/her own modus operidi, and therefore no common hunting location. Third, don't you think that it is a little unbalancing that a clan of vampires with no single vampire above capacity 4 should get something as useful as a hunting ground? Fourth, the Panders already have the Hungry Coyote, which is the uber-hunting card of the game. So, I hope you see how a Pander hunting ground would not only be unbalancing but also counter to the themes of the WOD. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8s7ttd$ab8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] That's why u should stay out of combat with them as I said. So unless you double up on Panders (another risky > proposition as you need alot of them) or bring non-Pander presence > vampires into your crypt (also risky as they do not benifit from a LOP) > then you really are planning on hand-jamming in combat. You have any better suggestion on how to play them in combat? (you can use Elysium to end combat too), you're saying you should fight?? > > Second, there is no general theme or sense of self-identity Exactly, so they're not like a real clan, because real clans HAS a self- identity and general theme. (beyond > being a pander) to the Panders to give them a communal hunting location. > Each is diverse and has his/her own modus operidi, and therefore no > common hunting location. > > Third, don't you think that it is a little unbalancing that a clan of > vampires with no single vampire above capacity 4 should get something > as useful as a hunting ground? Not at all, I see no prob with that, sicne you can play other types of weenie decks and have HG's in those decks...and actually more than one type of HG as well since you mix the clans. > > Fourth, the Panders already have the Hungry Coyote, which is the > uber-hunting card of the game. Now you're contradicting yourself with what you just said above. You say HG would be too powerful, yet Hungry Coyote is even betetr and THAT is allowed. If WW were concerned about Panders being too powerful with HG they'd not let them use HC, right? Panders is the suckiest clan since they hardly have any clan-specific cards and doesn't have any general theme or discipline. And yet you think a HG would be too good?? > > So, I hope you see how a Pander hunting ground would not only be > unbalancing but also counter to the themes of the WOD. Sorry, but I really don't. The WOD think I can agree on, but not the unbalancing thing. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <0mGF5.514$_24.1...@news.uswest.net>, "Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote: > > "cantila" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message > news:8s749u$j6m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com... > > And that's about it. ONE working strategy doesn't make a clan as > > perfectly playable as other clans. If anything, it shows that the clan > > sucks if it has to be dependant on one single card. > > The thing about the Panders is, though...they're not meant to be cohesive as a > clan. They're all the Caitiff from the Sabbat who got themselves some > political power and said, "Hey, we're a clan now! Respect [our] > author-ah-tee!" They shouldn't (for flavor reasons) have similar disciplines, > and if that makes them less playable as a clan, so be it. You don't need to > build decks around just one clan. Sometimes it works that way, other times, > you're better off going cross-clan, right? Perfectly right :) That's why you don't need 12 more of them, since they're best played by mixing with other clans. So make more vamps of other clans that fits to play with Pander AND the clan they belong to. More effective use of card slots. > > Xian > > -- > I'd tell the world and save my soul, But rain falls down and I feel cold. > A cold that sleeps within my heart, It tears the earth and sun apart. > --_Shellshock_, New Order > www.waste.org/~xian > > [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2000, Reyda wrote: > > > Actually, 2 clan-specific cards I can think of: Legacy of Pander and > > > Ghouled Street Thug. The clan is also mentioned on Unacceptable > > > Appearance, although that doesn't really count for much obviously. > > Don't they lack something big ?? Pander hunting ground WANTED ! The Pander actually should have few if any clan resources. Like Caitiff, they are costed about 0.5 points cheaper than regular clanned vampires with similar powers. The reason why affiliation in a "real" clan is worth one-half point is because of the resources it grants. -- JOhn Whelan

>According to Nights of Prophecy: In '98 all of the tremere anti's went >to a supposed secret meeting, but they never came back. Now if you >know about Tremere himself, you know that he's been engaged in a spirit >war with Salout, the antedelluvian he sucked dry to become a vampire. >Well in the latest battle with Salout's soul, Tremere got roughed up >pretty badly so he had to inhabit the body of a 4th generation tremere >to keep his soul alive. Tremere then called all the tremere anti's to >the main tremere chantry and ashed them all, the reason why isn't clear. > Sure its clear.... Tremere (inhabiting the body of Goratrix, the 4th generation leader of the !Tremere) had the prime oppourtunity to ash all of the !Tremere which had been his stated goal all along.

> You have any better suggestion on how to play them in combat? (you can > use Elysium to end combat too), you're saying you should fight?? I recommend guns actually. > > > > > Second, there is no general theme or sense of self-identity > > Exactly, so they're not like a real clan, because real clans HAS a self- > identity and general theme. > > (beyond > > being a pander) to the Panders to give them a communal hunting > location. > > Each is diverse and has his/her own modus operidi, and therefore no > > common hunting location. > > > > Third, don't you think that it is a little unbalancing that a clan of > > vampires with no single vampire above capacity 4 should get something > > as useful as a hunting ground? > > Not at all, I see no prob with that, sicne you can play other types of > weenie decks and have HG's in those decks...and actually more than one > type of HG as well since you mix the clans. True, but no clan has more than 8 vampires below capacity 5, and quite alot have less. The Panders have 10. Also none of those clans have vampires of capacity 1 that the Panders do. So as you can see it is a little unbalancing that a clan of thin blooded cast-offs and misfits should be able to control a location as powerful as a hunting ground. So from a balancing perspective, the Panders come into the controlled region faster than any other clan, and do so in greater numbers than any other clan. This in and of itself makes them a powerful unified force. Any card which they can capitalise on as a clan should not compensate them for their greatest weakness, smaller capacity which means they run out of blood faster and should have to hunt more. Hunting is the great balancer when dealing with weenies. If the weenie should run out of blood, then they become vulnerable to their predator intercepting their hunt. A hunting ground would be a unbalancing boon to this clan. As you know, one of the the current strategies for the Panders is to get out a Legacy of Pander or two and control the votes on the table. If they use presence based vote modifiers (yes, I know this is a crap-shoot, but just playing a LOP deck is one), then they have access to Bewitching Oration, Awe, and Business Pressure. Bewitching Oration is the most commonly used as it costs zero blood and gives you two votes. Business Pressure is the most rarely used as it requires Pool to be spent and others on the table can spend to match you. Awe is considered to be the quintessential vote modifier card as you can burn blood to pass a vote then recompensate yourself by regaining all the blood with a voter cap. Panders, who use Awe, while almost guaranteeing that LOP will pass, especially when used in combo with Bewitching Oration run the risk of having to hunt the next turn. Hunting for a Pander is a risk in an of itself. Cards like Strained Vitae Supply, Foul Blood, and XTC-Laced Blood can slow a LOP deck down. A slow LOP deck is not an effective strategy at all. Once titles come out on the board, you are almost guaranteed to never pass another LOP again. But back to my point, if you give the Panders a hunting ground then it gives them more low-risk options to use for a Legacy of Pander deck which is a frightful concept even before you begin enhancing it. I hope this illuminates the issue. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > > I see your unsubstantiated ponderings and raise you one Legacy of > Pander. > > And that's about it. ONE working strategy One card != one strategy. > doesn't make a clan as > perfectly playable as other clans. If anything, it shows that the clan > sucks if it has to be dependant on one single card. They do weenie bleed, weenie bleed with guns etc. far better than any other clan. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2000, cantila wrote: > > Fourth, the Panders already have the Hungry Coyote, which is the > > uber-hunting card of the game. > > Now you're contradicting yourself with what you just said above. You > say HG would be too powerful, yet Hungry Coyote is even betetr and THAT > is allowed. A HG -> an action still can be performed. Hungry Coyote -> waste an action on hunting, not on bleeding. Hungry Coyote is not "even better". [ quoted text not captured ]