card costs

Question: When do the costs of cards actually get paid? For example, you don't lose the cost of equipment if the action is blocked. What about modifiers? If the bleed is blocked, do you still pay the conditioning cost. During combat do you pay the strike cost before you lose your blood (i.e. my vamp has 1 blood and I want to play aggr. hand damage that costs 1 blood, do I get the card and then go to torpor, or lose the blood then not be able to play the card). ------------------------------------------------------------------------- jim.vamp@paonline "When my energies first surged through me, I Jim Hamilton learned to move as lightning." Harrisburg, PA USA - The Book of Nod, Jyhad/VTES

Jim "Vamp (jim....@paonline.com) wrote: : Question: When do the costs of cards actually get paid? For example, you : don't lose the cost of equipment if the action is blocked. Correct. : What about modifiers? All modifiers and reaction cards are paid for when they are played. The cost for action cards is only payd if the action is successful. : If the bleed is blocked, do you still pay the conditioning cost. If one had played the Conditioning before the 'declare blockers' phase, then yes; you still pay for it. (If he had declined to block and then you conditioned the bleed, he does not get another chance to block.) : During combat do you pay the strike cost before you lose your : blood (i.e. my vamp has 1 blood and I want to play aggr. hand damage that : costs 1 blood, do I get the card and then go to torpor, or lose the blood : then not be able to play the card). The cost for strikes is paid when the card is used. In the above example, that means you would pay one blood to use the card (reducing the vampire to 0 blood) and then take a point during strike resolution, sending the vampire to torpor. Shane H.W. Travis | Galbraith's Law of Human Nature: Faced with the tra...@duke.usask.ca | choice between changing one's mind and proving Saskatoon, Saskatchewan | that there is no need to do so, almost everybody | gets busy on the proof.

When using conditioning, you needn't play it until your pray has declined to block. Although, after you play it, your pray still has the option to misdirect or deflect your bleed if possible. In combat, you pay the blood for a strike, when you strike, even if it is not successful. For Wolf Claws and Claws of the Dead, you pay after strikes but before damage resolution. (When it's too late to dodge but not too late to prevent.) Just MHO Rich

In article <4c7h9t$n...@news.paonline.com>, jim....@paonline.com says... > > >Question: When do the costs of cards actually get paid? For example, you >don't lose the cost of equipment if the action is blocked. What about >modifiers? If the bleed is blocked, do you still pay the conditioning >cost. During combat do you pay the strike cost before you lose your >blood (i.e. my vamp has 1 blood and I want to play aggr. hand damage that >costs 1 blood, do I get the card and then go to torpor, or lose the blood >then not be able to play the card). You always get the blood back for action / equipment etc if the action is blocked. Although this is also true for modifiers it shouldn't happen - you only slap on the Conditioning after they've accepted the bleed so if it's blocked, you don't play it. In combat damage resolution obviously comes after strike declaration. Hence, if you've got a vamp on 1 point who wants to use Wolf Claws you'll have to play the Wolf Claws at or before strike declaration. This takes the vamp down to 0 blood and hence it'll torpor from any damage from the other guy. If you waited until damage resolution to play the Wolf Claws, you'd already be on 0 blood and hence couldn't pay the 1. Thus youwouldn't torpor but neither would the other vamp. Hope this makes sense. Richard -- "A Smith & Wesson beats four aces" ric...@onechip.co.uk

In article <1996Jan4.1...@schbbs.mot.com>, sba...@cso.geg.mot.com wrote: : In article QAA1...@onechip.demon.co.uk, Richard Mines <ric...@onechip.co.uk> writes: : <Stuff Deleted : > You always get the blood back for action / equipment etc if the action is : > blocked. Although this is also true for modifiers it shouldn't happen - you : > only slap on the Conditioning after they've accepted the bleed so if it's : > blocked, you don't play it. : <Stuff Deleted> : > Richard : > -- : > "A Smith & Wesson beats four aces" : > : > ric...@onechip.co.uk : > : There is no rule that you must wait till your opponent declines to block : to play action mods. You can use that Conditioning to get you opponent to block : the minion you want him to block. And as you said if blocked no cost is paid. Hmm. I thought the current (and in my mind only ruling, though I could be wrong) was that action modifiers are paid for when they are played, regardless of whether the action is successfully blocked or not. : Also bleeds can be deflected after declining to block and then the new : opponent may block. : : This lead me to two questions. When does a blocker using eagle sight : have to announce his/her intention to block? Does he/she get to violate ordinary : blocking order and go before the blockers prey? Does he/she get to go any time during : the action? My understanding is that the order for declaring responses to actions (or master cards or whatever) is prey, predator, and then any other Meth clockwise from the acting Meth. So a Meth you is the grandprey of the acting Meth would be able to act after the Prey and Pred of the acting Meth failed to block (either by declaring no block or not completing due to stealth), and before any other Meth could choose to act. : Then my second question is can the minions of the target of say a directed : action use eagle sight to block a action the Meth has already declined to block? Eagles sight at the superior allows an attempt to block any action, so yes, it would allow another Meth to block a directed action not directed at them. Some examples: you could use Eagles sight to block a vote if you are not the pred or prey of the vote caller, to block a bleed against another Meth, to stop a Grave robbing etc. I hope this helps stephen beaulieu hi...@mail.utexas.edu

In article QAA1...@onechip.demon.co.uk, Richard Mines <ric...@onechip.co.uk> writes: <Stuff Deleted > You always get the blood back for action / equipment etc if the action is > blocked. Although this is also true for modifiers it shouldn't happen - you > only slap on the Conditioning after they've accepted the bleed so if it's > blocked, you don't play it. <Stuff Deleted> > Richard > -- > "A Smith & Wesson beats four aces" > > ric...@onechip.co.uk > There is no rule that you must wait till your opponent declines to block to play action mods. You can use that Conditioning to get you opponent to block the minion you want him to block. And as you said if blocked no cost is paid. Also bleeds can be deflected after declining to block and then the new opponent may block. This lead me to two questions. When does a blocker using eagle sight have to announce his/her intention to block? Does he/she get to violate ordinary blocking order and go before the blockers prey? Does he/she get to go any time during the action? Then my second question is can the minions of the target of say a directed action use eagle sight to block a action the Meth has already declined to block? Steve

Richard Mines <ric...@onechip.co.uk> writes: >In article <4c7h9t$n...@news.paonline.com>, jim....@paonline.com says... >> >> >>Question: When do the costs of cards actually get paid? For example, you >>don't lose the cost of equipment if the action is blocked. What about >>modifiers? If the bleed is blocked, do you still pay the conditioning >>cost. During combat do you pay the strike cost before you lose your >>blood (i.e. my vamp has 1 blood and I want to play aggr. hand damage that >>costs 1 blood, do I get the card and then go to torpor, or lose the blood >>then not be able to play the card). >You always get the blood back for action / equipment etc if the action is >blocked. Although this is also true for modifiers it shouldn't happen - you >only slap on the Conditioning after they've accepted the bleed so if it's >blocked, you don't play it. In combat damage resolution obviously comes after >strike declaration. Hence, if you've got a vamp on 1 point who wants to use >Wolf Claws you'll have to play the Wolf Claws at or before strike declaration. ^^^^^^^^^^^ Between Choose Strike and Resolve Strike, actually. >This takes the vamp down to 0 blood and hence it'll torpor from any damage >from the other guy. If you waited until damage resolution to play the Wolf >Claws, you'd already be on 0 blood and hence couldn't pay the 1. Thus >youwouldn't torpor but neither would the other vamp. Hope this makes sense. The actual order is: Acting Minion chooses strike (pays cost) Blocking Minion chooses strike (pays cost) Either or both minions play Claws (and pay costs) Any S:CE resolves, terminating the sequence. Any Strike: Dodge resolves, cancelling the opposing strike. All non-First Strike strikes are resolved. Damage (if any) is healed/prevented. All other strikes are resolved. Damage (if any) is healed/prevented. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | These opinions are mine and http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | are subject to card text. Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

Steven Bauer (sba...@cso.geg.mot.com) wrote: : There is no rule that you must wait till your opponent declines to : block to play action mods. You can use that Conditioning to get you : opponent to block the minion you want him to block. And as you said if : blocked no cost is paid. This is a misprint in the VTES printed rules which has been officially errata'd on the Net, and (IIRC) will be cleared up in an issue of Duellist as well. Action Modifiers and Reactions are paid for when they are used, whether or not the action/block is successful. Action cards themselves are only paid for when the action becomes successful. Example: A: bleeds B B: Declines to block A: slaps down conditioning, pays for conditioning. B: plays Deflection, sending bleed over to C. B pays for Deflection now. C: Declares a block. A: Uses a no-cost, +1 stealth card C: Uses a Telepathic Misdirection (inferior) for +1 intercept. Pays for TM now. A: Uses a (theoretical) 1-blood costing +1 stealth card. Pays for it. C: Cannot come up with more intercept. Bleed successful. : This lead me to two questions. When does a blocker using eagle sight : have to announce his/her intention to block? Does he/she get to violate : ordinary blocking order and go before the blockers prey? Does he/she get : to go any time during the action? Eagle's Sight/Anneke (and all other effects) comes into play as follows: prey, predator, all other methuselahs clockwise from the Methusalah taking the action. Thus, one cannot use an Eagle's Sight to 'jump in' and block something before the prey has a chance, even if you want to. You must 'wait your turn' to have a chance to play it. : Then my second question is can the minions of the target of say a : directed action use eagle sight to block a action the Meth has already : declined to block? This would be acceptable. If one was the acting Meth's prey, and the target of a (D) action, one could decline to block, wait to see if the predator was going to use his Anneke to leap in (for example) and then use your Eagle's Sight in the 'clockwise from the acting meth' part of the blocking resolution. It is an acceptable way to cycle cards. (Remember though, in the above example, that even if you do not use your Eagle's Sight, the Predator still has one last chance to use Anneke - he is the last person to declare in the clockwise part. In practice, this gets too time consuming if everyone must declare for every action, and the whole clockwise bit is usually skipped unless absolutely necessary.) [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <4ci1vk$e...@tribune.usask.ca>, tra...@duke.usask.ca (Shane Travis) writes: > Steven Bauer (sba...@cso.geg.mot.com) wrote: > > Action Modifiers and Reactions are paid for when they are used, whether > or not the action/block is successful. Action cards themselves are only > paid for when the action becomes successful. > > Example: > A: bleeds B > B: Declines to block > A: slaps down conditioning, pays for conditioning. > B: plays Deflection, sending bleed over to C. B pays for Deflection now. > C: Declares a block. > A: Uses a no-cost, +1 stealth card > C: Uses a Telepathic Misdirection (inferior) for +1 intercept. Pays for > TM now. > A: Uses a (theoretical) 1-blood costing +1 stealth card. Pays for it. Hardly Theorectical, it's called `Earth Control' > C: Cannot come up with more intercept. Bleed successful. > > > : This lead me to two questions. When does a blocker using eagle sight > : have to announce his/her intention to block? Does he/she get to violate > : ordinary blocking order and go before the blockers prey? Does he/she get > : to go any time during the action? > > Eagle's Sight/Anneke (and all other effects) comes into play as follows: > prey, predator, all other methuselahs clockwise from the Methusalah taking > the action. Thus, one cannot use an Eagle's Sight to 'jump in' and block > something before the prey has a chance, even if you want to. You must > 'wait your turn' to have a chance to play it. > > : Then my second question is can the minions of the target of say a > : directed action use eagle sight to block a action the Meth has already > : declined to block? > > This would be acceptable. If one was the acting Meth's prey, and the > target of a (D) action, one could decline to block, wait to see if the > predator was going to use his Anneke to leap in (for example) and then > use your Eagle's Sight in the 'clockwise from the acting meth' part of > the blocking resolution. It is an acceptable way to cycle cards. > And a way to catch people unaware with their attempted Conditioning. > (Remember though, in the above example, that even if you do not use your > Eagle's Sight, the Predator still has one last chance to use Anneke - he > is the last person to declare in the clockwise part. In practice, this > gets too time consuming if everyone must declare for every action, and the > whole clockwise bit is usually skipped unless absolutely necessary.) > > Shane H.W. Travis | Galbraith's Law of Human Nature: Faced with the > tra...@duke.usask.ca | choice between changing one's mind and proving > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan | that there is no need to do so, almost everybody > | gets busy on the proof. > Ritaxis -- "Every message you leave on this answering machine, teaches YOU shaolin kung fu."

aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) wrote: >You pay the costs for action modifiers and reactions immediately, and don't >get the blood back if the effect turns out to be useless. Only the costs >for actions, and for equipment/retainers/allies, are ignored if the action ^^^^^^^ >is successful [!] ^^^^^^^^^^ Better! --- TJH ;-)

Just wondering - can you use eagle's sight or Anneke to block your own actions - the cards do say that you can block any action by any Methuselah. This may sound useless, but it seems to be one of the few ways to get rid of Charnas. -James

3j...@qlink.queensu.ca (Zacour James) writes: >Just wondering - can you use eagle's sight or Anneke to block your own >actions - the cards do say that you can block any action by any >Methuselah. No, for the technical reason that you can't play reaction cards on your turn. I would think that under the current official rules, you could Eagle's Sight yourself if you are acting with the Malkavian Madness Network. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)

In article <4cureg$9...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) wrote: > 3j...@qlink.queensu.ca (Zacour James) writes: > > >Just wondering - can you use eagle's sight or Anneke to block your own > >actions - the cards do say that you can block any action by any > >Methuselah. > > No, for the technical reason that you can't play reaction cards on your > turn. Blocking doesn't require a reaction card if there's no stealth, does it? > I would think that under the current official rules, you could Eagle's > Sight yourself if you are acting with the Malkavian Madness Network. J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com> PGP keys by request