Wednesday Night Questions (LSJ + judges)

As usual, some questions arose during our weekly (at least) game : - Can a vampire gain blood from the after effects of Darkness Within at the end of a round in which he is in torpor and took more damage than he had blood ? - Can you play two or more Undead Persistence at inf in a row (like, the minion should go to torpor after 3 presses, new UP) ? - Is the taking of the edge obligatory ? - In the trail of the previous question : there was a case during the game where a player forgot to take the edge ; my predator asked me if I still had it, I said "yes" because I still had the edge marker and didn't realise I shouldn't ; my predator then acted, and ended up in torpor. Only after this did my grand predator say "I should have had the edge", and my predator said "I wouldn't have done it, I want to go back all the way". What would you suggest if this happened in tournament ? Whose fault is it, and what should I rule ? TIA, Orpheus

"Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:aia01c$3e9$1...@wanadoo.fr... > As usual, some questions arose during our weekly (at least) game : > > - Can a vampire gain blood from the after effects of Darkness Within at the > end of a round in which he is in torpor and took more damage than he had > blood ? yes > - Can you play two or more Undead Persistence at inf in a row (like, the > minion should go to torpor after 3 presses, new UP) ? A minion with fortitude may play an undead persistance at inferior at any time that they would be going to torpor from combat. > - Is the taking of the edge obligatory ? Yes > - In the trail of the previous question : there was a case during the game > where a player forgot to take the edge ; my predator asked me if I still had > it, I said "yes" because I still had the edge marker and didn't realise I > shouldn't ; my predator then acted, and ended up in torpor. Only after this > did my grand predator say "I should have had the edge", and my predator said > "I wouldn't have done it, I want to go back all the way". I think that you should let him since you misrepresented the fact that you had the edge. > What would you suggest if this happened in tournament ? Whose fault is it, > and what should I rule ? Give a warning to the person who misrepresented that he had the edge. That falls under cheating. You should rule that a takeback should be allowed since the circumstances have been signifigantly changed. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

XZealot <x_ze...@bellsouth.net> wrote : > "Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> wrote : > > - Can you play two or more Undead Persistence at inf in a row (like, the > > minion should go to torpor after 3 presses, new UP) ? > > A minion with fortitude may play an undead persistance at inferior at any > time that they would be going to torpor from combat. This is true; however, to more accurately answer the given scenario: A minion is dealt more damage than he/she has blood, and is sent to torpor. However, this minion plays Undead Persistence at inferior, and does not go to torpor. More combat occurs. When there are no presses to continue, or either minion is no longer ready, combat will end. At this point, the effect of the Undead Persistence will end as well (as per card text). A second UP cannot be played at this time because it is outside of combat. Technically, I suppose one cannot play a second UP because the card text of the first UP would prevent a minion from going to torpor -- a precondition of playing UP in the first place. --UP makes me hate using Entombments, heslin

"Matthew Heslin" <hes...@sprynet.com> wrote in message news:01c2392f$837934c0$a275143f@wyld... [ quoted text not captured ] I would say that you would actually be able to play a UP here. My reasoning would be that the vampire is going to torpor from combat which is when you play UP. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:<aia01c$3e9 > - Can a vampire gain blood from the after effects of Darkness Within at the > end of a round in which he is in torpor and took more damage than he had > blood ? Yes. DW returns blood when combat ends, and so, before the vampire goes to torpor. > - Can you play two or more Undead Persistence at inf in a row (like, the > minion should go to torpor after 3 presses, new UP) ? No. UP is played when a vampire is sent to torpor. After the first UP, the vampire surelly is going to torpor independently of the effects of the additional round(s). So there are no conditions to play another UP in a row. > - Is the taking of the edge obligatory ? Yes it is! What is _not_ mandatory is to gain 1 pool if you control the Edge. > - In the trail of the previous question : there was a case during the game > where a player forgot to take the edge ; my predator asked me if I still had > it, I said "yes" because I still had the edge marker and didn't realise I > shouldn't ; my predator then acted, and ended up in torpor. Only after this > did my grand predator say "I should have had the edge", and my predator said > "I wouldn't have done it, I want to go back all the way". > > What would you suggest if this happened in tournament ? Whose fault is it, > and what should I rule ? The tournament rules state that in cases like this the game should be rewind. Depending of the impact of the grand predator not controling the Edge when he should, maybe one solution could be to rewind a bit and give him the Edge. Anyway, it is assumed that everyone should know the rules and should make an intervention on something that it is not right during the game. Since there was a mistake that no one saw in the moment it occured, maybe the game should proceed since it was everyone's fault. > TIA, TIA? What does this means? .- Luis Duarte - - - Powerbase:Lisbon-[http://planeta.clix.pt/vampire]

> TIA? What does this means? It means "aunt" in spanish, but why he put that there, I don't have a clue.

Orpheus asked: >> - Can you play two or more Undead Persistence at inf in a row (like, >> the minion should go to torpor after 3 presses, new UP) ? No. Norm had replied: >>>> A minion with fortitude may play an undead persistance at inferior at >>>>any time that they would be going to torpor from combat. Almost, the vampire will never be going into torpor "during" combat, not "from" combat. The vampire who has played Undead Persistence will not go to torpor until after combat has ended, at which time it cannot play combat cards. Heslin had replied: >> This is true; however, to more accurately answer >> the given scenario: >> A minion is dealt more damage than he/she has >> blood, and is sent to torpor. However, this minion plays >> Undead Persistence at inferior, and does not go to torpor. >> More combat occurs. When there are no presses to continue, >> or either minion is no longer ready, combat will end. At this >> point, the effect of the Undead Persistence will end as well >> (as per card text). A second UP cannot be played at this >> time because it is outside of combat. >> Technically, I suppose one cannot play a second >> UP because the card text of the first UP would prevent a >> minion from going to torpor -- a precondition of playing UP >> in the first place. Norm had responded: >I would say that you would actually be able to play a UP here. My reasoning >would be that the vampire is going to torpor from combat which is when you >play UP. Because of the first Undead Persistence, the vampire isn't going to torpor "in combat", so it cannot play another Undead Persistence. See the LSJ of 2000-04-10: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=38F1D134.E5B4D019%40white-wolf.com ----------------- > If I have played both trap and UP and with no cards being played, is there > some point during which I can play a new UP to continue combat? When? No, since UP prevents you from going to torpor until after combat. ----------------- Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

> > TIA? What does this means? > > It means "aunt" in spanish, but why he put that there, I don't have a clue. Lol... Thanks In Advance, as I won't post another answer just to say "thanks", but still am grateful for given answers... :-) Nice Orpheus

XZealot wrote: > "Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message > > - In the trail of the previous question : there was a case during the game > > where a player forgot to take the edge ; my predator asked me if I still > had > > it, I said "yes" because I still had the edge marker and didn't realise I > > shouldn't ; my predator then acted, and ended up in torpor. Only after > this > > did my grand predator say "I should have had the edge", and my predator > said > > "I wouldn't have done it, I want to go back all the way". > > I think that you should let him since you misrepresented the fact that you > had the edge. > > > What would you suggest if this happened in tournament ? Whose fault is it, > > and what should I rule ? > > Give a warning to the person who misrepresented that he had the edge. That > falls under cheating. You should rule that a takeback should be allowed > since the circumstances have been signifigantly changed. The warning would likely go to the player who failed to take the edge, if any warning is due at all. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

- In the trail of the previous question : there was a case during the game where a player forgot to take the edge ; my predator asked me if I still had it, I said "yes" because I still had the edge marker and didn't realise I shouldn't ; my predator then acted, and ended up in torpor. Only after this did my grand predator say "I should have had the edge", and my predator said "I wouldn't have done it, I want to go back all the way". > The warning would likely go to the player who failed to take the edge, > if any warning is due at all. Why would that be? The player who should have had the edge didn' t misrepresent anything. Explicitly for this example, the person. who had the edge but shouldn't have had it, misrepresented that they had the edge to another player ***when they were asked***, which is the key. Obviously, this is not that big of a deal in a friendly game, but if it happened in the Final Round of the North American Championship when tensions are high, I would think there might be a ruckus. [ quoted text not captured ]

"The Lasombra" <thela...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d4919f3...@text.giganews.com... > Orpheus asked: > >> - Can you play two or more Undead Persistence at inf in a row (like, > >> the minion should go to torpor after 3 presses, new UP) ? > > No. > > > Norm had replied: > >>>> A minion with fortitude may play an undead persistance at inferior at > >>>>any time that they would be going to torpor from combat. > > Almost, the vampire will never be going into torpor "during" combat, > not "from" combat. The vampire who has played Undead Persistence will > not go to torpor until after combat has ended, at which time it cannot > play combat cards. Oops, I guess that's what I get for posting at 5:00 in the morning. [ quoted text not captured ]

XZealot wrote: > > The warning would likely go to the player who failed to take the edge, > > if any warning is due at all. > > Why would that be? The player who should have had the edge didn' t > misrepresent anything. Explicitly for this example, the person. who had the > edge but shouldn't have had it, misrepresented that they had the edge to > another player ***when they were asked***, which is the key. Becuase *when he or she was asked*, he or she looked down and saw that he or she *had* the edge. The player who *should* have had (but *did not* have) the edge erred by not taking the edge. By leaving the edge where it was, he or she is misrepresenting the game state. That she has "fooled" the player who physically has the edge doesn't lay blame on the player who has the edge. The blame lies on the player who *should* have the edge but does not (except in strange cases where the edge is forced onto another player as the result of some other player's action or effect). > Obviously, this is not that big of a deal in a friendly game, but if it > happened in the Final Round of the North American Championship when tensions > are high, I would think there might be a ruckus. You are allowed/expected to be able to determine who has the edge by observing who has the edge marker, just as you are allowed/expected to see who has more than 1 pool by looking at the counter in their pool and whether The Barrens is tapped by looking at The Barrens card and observing its orientation. [ quoted text not captured ]

"XZealot" <x_ze...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<w7829.97761$Og3.24...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>... > > TIA? What does this means? > > It means "aunt" in spanish, but why he put that there, I don't have a clue. :) FYI it means the same in Portuguese, aunt. Living and learning! ;) [ quoted text not captured ]

"XZealot" <x_ze...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<w7829.97761$Og3.24...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>... > > TIA? What does this means? > > It means "aunt" in spanish, but why he put that there, I don't have a clue. [T]hanks [I]n [A]dvance, I believe.