The Big Fix

First I'll throw my two cents on the table. That done I invite any and all to comment on this post, I believe my points are valid and worth looking at. All of the discussion in the group lately leads me to one plain belief - Get back to the basic concepts, redefine them, incorporate all the wisdom of the players (or maybe not), and re-issue the game in a 180 card expansion. An example of how the game has lost focus: Concealed weapon – bring a small, common weapon into play without having to do the basic equips action. Advantages: you don’t have to do the action noted above, a big surprise in combat, and it can be used by anyone. Disadvantages: it takes up a card slot and only allows certain types of weapons. It also has to be used in conjunction with another card. Flaws that are true with this card: 1. When since could a Black Spiral Buddy (or like creature) grab a .44 out of nowhere? 2. Some powerful weapons do not fit the basic concept of the card (Ivory bow, etc). 3. An Obf. discipline was slapped on the card, and another Obf. Skill card is around that is a better card. 4. It takes away from a basic act in the game - the block reaction. I could continue, I could talk about how weapons may need a boost in power. Their prohibitive equip cost and the need to take an equip action make them a risky proposition in many decks, which leaves them them teetering on the edge of the wallpaper bin. etc, etc. In the end, this discussion, and all other ones like it lead me to my original belief mentioned above. Take 180 cards, and remember: the goal is to get rid of as much errata, and confusion as possible however minor. Note that I am not entirely sure how many vamps are already around for each clan, but that is basically inconsequential here. Existing Clan # Vamps New Vamps Reprinted vamps # Cards Most Sabbat 10? 4 4 each Tzimisce 10? 4 Dragos 5 Anti-nos 10? 4 Cailean 5 Lasombra 10? 4 (that Priscus guy) 5 Most Camarilla 23 1 1 each Tremere x 1 Blythe 2 Gangrel x 1 Camille the Raven 2 Pander 9? 1 1 Caitiff 13 1 1 Assamite 10? 4 4 Settite 10? 4 4 Giovanni 13 2 2 Ravnos 13 2 2 You could also, if so inclined, up the power of original series vamps (or decrease the power of some Sabbat) to make things more even. In the end you use up about 80 card slots here and fix a bunch of minor and major problems - not the least of which is the lack of vamps that the newer clans have. The next 40-60 cards are to be used for reprints of existing cards that require errata or just plain fixes (TB anyone?). Concealed Weapon could be re-introduced in this fashion. The idea here is to examine the essential game concepts and fix those cards that abuse or undermine the game. Of course the final 40-60 cards are new introductions. Perhaps dual discipline cards or whatever. Now for the important part - a new rule book. One that incorporates the Golden Tenants and SPTRules. One that does a better job of defining the combat sequence and how damage prevention works. One that contains good and comprehensive examples of play, and maybe even has a small Q & A section. This is where the basic concepts of the game are defined and supported, stuff that doesn't fit is simply taken out. Do we need rulebooks to be in starter packs - probably not. Go with 14 card packs in the regular booster style, but instead of 36 packs in a box go with 30. Leave the other 6 packs as rulebook packs at the same price (maybe the rulebook and 4 cards or something per pack) - if you make it good enough, people will buy it. Last but not least, if they felt like re-releasing Sabbat that must mean that they had sold out of it....it isn't like they have tonnes of support staff for VTES and their promotion is spotty at best. As an accountant myself, I am certain that they made money or at least broke even on the release. Any losses are accounting losses. If you consider that the VTES licence has a value then they should spend the million to do the BIG FIX.....and do it right, or sell the game to someone who will. I'll take my two cents back now.

In article <35149829...@internorth.com>, jay...@internorth.com wrote: > First I'll throw my two cents on the table. That done I invite any > and all to comment on this post, I believe my points are valid > and worth looking at. > > All of the discussion in the group lately leads me to one plain belief - > > Get back to the basic concepts, redefine them, incorporate all the > wisdom of the players (or maybe not), and re-issue the game in a 180 > card expansion. > This is a good plan. Portal for Jyhad. It might work! One addition; I'd like there to be two backs for each card - one Jyhad, one vampire. That way we go some distance to correcting the original disastrous decison to change the backs .....

On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:48:41 -0700, Jaysen Knight <jay...@internorth.com> wrote: >All of the discussion in the group lately leads me to one plain belief - > >Get back to the basic concepts, redefine them, incorporate all the >wisdom of the players (or maybe not), and re-issue the game in a 180 >card expansion. I think its clear that currently there will not be any more reprints of V:TES in any form, perhaps EVEN if we all work really hard to get droves of people clammering the retailers to re-order. So, that said, I think it's up to us to whip the game into shape for ourselves, and attempt to make it easier for others to join in. Then MAYBE we will get a reprint, but that's a big maybe. >Now for the important part - a new rule book. One that incorporates >the Golden Tenants and SPTRules. One that does a better job of >defining the combat sequence and how damage prevention works. One >that contains good and comprehensive examples of play, and maybe >even has a small Q & A section. This is where the basic concepts >of the game are defined and supported, stuff that doesn't fit is >simply taken out. I agree wholeheartedly. In my opinoin, there are two points that hold V:TES back from becoming embraced by both new players and old players. The first is the muddled state of learning a somewhat complex game. There is a 3.1 rulebook availible now on the net. However, it is pretty much a repeat of the version in the V:TES rulebook, with some stuff added to support the independents Sabbat and so forth, but not good enough. I am attempting to reformat it to CLEARLY (like that's even possible) illustrate the rules, incorporating all the errata, clarifications and rulings at this time. It will also contain all the E,C and R of the cards. It will also contain simplifed combat sequences and so forth. Some have already done their own, and I'm checking them all to do it the best way I know. I plan to submit it to LSJ, get it all cleared offically (if possible) and hopefully we will have a better tool for keeping a lid on this complex game! New E,C and R can be added HERE, as well as in lists tens of pages long (for history and for reference for new updates). I hope this will solve our first problem of making the game more accessable to the experts and the novices. The second is the IMPOSSIBLE state of deck construction of the novice of the game. It takes hundreds of cards to build even the most simple, common focused decks, due to the shear amount of clans AND abilities. I suggest we should ALL be building simple, focused decks (made of mostly common cards) and teaching the game to new players at game stores, conventions or whatever (I'm doing this here at out GameCon in the Bay Area). This is how the game should have been done (clan-based starter decks were not introduced as a concept until MUCH later), and how we must do it to get new players in. When possible, build decks to either give away or sell at a cheap price. I personally have over 4000 Jyhad cards alone. I will NEVER need them all, but I can build 8 simple, focused decks. Then I can teach 8 new players how to use them. If they like the game, I'll give/sell them this "starter" deck, and they are many cards ahead of the curve now. Worse case, you'll have some new people to play against! The cheapness of the cards should be explioted to bring new players in (especially Jyhad, since V:TES seems to have more Errata then correct cards))! They gain value when MORE people want them! In short, we have to bite the bullet, take the risks, and do what is needed to get the game in front of new eyes. I feel if we were successful, and we significantly increase the people who wrote, emailed, faxed and phoned into WotC that they wanted more V:TES, THEN maybe they might think about re-issuing a new set in 99. Tony

Tony Van wrote: > On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:48:41 -0700, Jaysen Knight > <jay...@internorth.com> wrote: > >Now for the important part - a new rule book. One that incorporates > >the Golden Tenants and SPTRules. One that does a better job of > >defining the combat sequence and how damage prevention works. One > >that contains good and comprehensive examples of play, and maybe > >even has a small Q & A section. This is where the basic concepts > >of the game are defined and supported, stuff that doesn't fit is > >simply taken out. > > I agree wholeheartedly. In my opinoin, there are two points that hold > V:TES back from becoming embraced by both new players and old players. > The first is the muddled state of learning a somewhat complex game. > > There is a 3.1 rulebook availible now on the net. However, it is > pretty much a repeat of the version in the V:TES rulebook, with some > stuff added to support the independents Sabbat and so forth, but not > good enough. > > I am attempting to reformat it to CLEARLY (like that's even possible) > illustrate the rules, incorporating all the errata, clarifications and > rulings at this time. It will also contain all the E,C and R of the > cards. > > It will also contain simplifed combat sequences and so forth. A new rulebook is already being worked on, with objectives as you describe. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. (*) - Subject to review by Rules Team

In article <3518FF...@wizards.com>, LSJ <vte...@wizards.com> writes >> There is a 3.1 rulebook availible now on the net. However, it is >> pretty much a repeat of the version in the V:TES rulebook, with some >> stuff added to support the independents Sabbat and so forth, but not >> good enough. >> >> I am attempting to reformat it to CLEARLY (like that's even possible) >> illustrate the rules, incorporating all the errata, clarifications and >> rulings at this time. It will also contain all the E,C and R of the >> cards. >> >> It will also contain simplifed combat sequences and so forth. > >A new rulebook is already being worked on, with objectives as you >describe. By whom and for publication where? -- James Coupe (Prince of England) Change nospam to obeah to reply Vampire: Elder Kindred Network madnessnetwork.hexagon.net

James Coupe wrote: > > In article <3518FF...@wizards.com>, LSJ <vte...@wizards.com> writes > >> There is a 3.1 rulebook availible now on the net. However, it is > >> pretty much a repeat of the version in the V:TES rulebook, with some > >> stuff added to support the independents Sabbat and so forth, but not > >> good enough. > >> > >> I am attempting to reformat it to CLEARLY (like that's even possible) > >> illustrate the rules, incorporating all the errata, clarifications and > >> rulings at this time. It will also contain all the E,C and R of the > >> cards. > >> > >> It will also contain simplifed combat sequences and so forth. > > > >A new rulebook is already being worked on, with objectives as you > >describe. > > By whom and for publication where? By WotC. Publication on the net - and possibly other avenues not yet known (but not likely). Just like the FAQ/RTR. [ quoted text not captured ]