One has to wonder why there are more Presses in Obfuscate than Maneuvers.
There's only one Maneuver usubale at any time (Superior version of
Swallowed) and one usable during first round (Inferior version of Behind
You, a Rare!)
On the other hand there are two unconditional presses, and two additional
Presses only to End Combat.
What should be easier? Using your ability to obscure your form to be at long
range instead of short (or surprisingly close the distance from long to
short) or the ability to use obfuscation to force a second round of combat?
Just curious what people think.
Matt
Seeking Obfuscate Maneuvers
[ quoted text not captured ]
Justification based on results (rather than suggesting that the results
are based on some sort of similar analysis by the designers when designing
the cards):
Disappearing in the shadows is modeled well by pressing to end.
Keeping up with small-scale movements of your opponent is not necessarily easy
to do with Obfuscate, although large scale (pressing) is a bit more
accessible with the skill.
Note, too, that the "unconditional press" to free manuevers comparison
is not quite apples to apples:
Fade From View costs a blood (but is versatile)
Vanish from Mind's Eye requires superior - the inferior is just a press to
end (non-versatile).
Whereas
Behind You! is free and versatile, but restricted to first round.
Swallowed by the Night requires superior, but is versatile - the inferior
provides stealth.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
>===== Original Message From "Matt Latham" <mla...@diamondtoolmfg.com> =====>One has to wonder why there are more Presses in Obfuscate than Maneuvers.
>There's only one Maneuver usubale at any time (Superior version of
>Swallowed) and one usable during first round (Inferior version of Behind
>You, a Rare!)
>
>On the other hand there are two unconditional presses, and two additional
>Presses only to End Combat.
>
>What should be easier? Using your ability to obscure your form to be at long
>range instead of short (or surprisingly close the distance from long to
>short) or the ability to use obfuscation to force a second round of combat?
>Just curious what people think.
>
I don't know if this is counterintuitive.
Obfuscate is not a combat discipline which is I think the most important
thing
to note. The idea behind Obfuscate is to not get into combat (Unless you
have
guns in your watch).
There are 2 manouvers as you point out which both have a solid dual purpose.
Fade from View is the extra sucky Sabbat Rare costing a blood. (anyone even
ever used this??). Quick Exit only allows a Press to end, or a Dodge.
Vanish from Minds Eye is the "only" real press card for Obfuscate.
As you can see Obfuscate has it's combat defenses along with few offenses.
It
is not a combat discipline. Nor should it be. If you get caught during a
obfuscated action, pray you survive and end the darned combat.
(note: non-relevant VTM information follows)
From a RPG standpoint I think it is easier to escape a combat after a round
than to obscure yourself and attack. All disguise/obfuscate effects will end
whenever a vampire makes an aggressive action towards another. Which
translates beautifully in the Presses to end and 'only' 2 manouvers.
just my 2 eurocents
Tim
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:<3B601EEE...@white-wolf.com>...
> Justification based on results (rather than suggesting that the results
> are based on some sort of similar analysis by the designers when designing
> the cards):
>
> Disappearing in the shadows is modeled well by pressing to end.
> Keeping up with small-scale movements of your opponent is not necessarily
easy
> to do with Obfuscate, although large scale (pressing) is a bit more
> accessible with the skill.
>
> Note, too, that the "unconditional press" to free manuevers comparison
> is not quite apples to apples:
>
> Fade From View costs a blood (but is versatile)
> Vanish from Mind's Eye requires superior - the inferior is just a press to
> end (non-versatile).
>
> Whereas
>
> Behind You! is free and versatile, but restricted to first round.
> Swallowed by the Night requires superior, but is versatile - the inferior
> provides stealth.
>
Excellent points. I agree that Press to End is the most intuitive use of
Obfuscate in Combat. Maneuver to me is the next most intuitive use of OBF in
combat, with Press to Continue and Dodge the least intuitive.
Just my opinion of course. I'd like to see another Maneuver or Press to end
(perhaps in one card) but that's just splitting hairs.
Matt
PS: I didn't know Fade from View was a rare. I own little Sabbat.
In some regard I'm suprised that Obfuscate doesn't have a combat
card giving First Strike during the 1st round of combat.
While I'm aware there is no equivalent of First Strike in the WOD,
it makes a certain intuitive sense in the CCG.
; Agrippina sneaks up on you with a Torn Signpost, WHAM in
the back o'yer noggin..
Bernie
[ quoted text not captured ]
On 26 Jul 2001 15:49:28 GMT, berni...@aol.com (BernieTime) wrote:
>In some regard I'm suprised that Obfuscate doesn't have a combat
>card giving First Strike during the 1st round of combat.
>
>While I'm aware there is no equivalent of First Strike in the WOD,
>it makes a certain intuitive sense in the CCG.
>
>; Agrippina sneaks up on you with a Torn Signpost, WHAM in
>the back o'yer noggin..
I think that's what Behind You was meant to represent in the original
set. Note that of the original 10 disciplines, only 5 had a "generic"
maneuver (Celerity, Protean, Obfuscate, Thaumaturgy, Fortitude),
...and only three of those gave it at the inferior level of the
discipline (cel/pro/obf). Two of those disciplines are obviously
combat-support.
In retrospect, Behind You was/is a pretty strong card. It seems to
have been intended for the Nossies in conjunction with Sewer Lids and
Cars (which work at inferior Potence, something the Nossies have in
abundance), while the hand-damage Potence increasers were probably
aimed more at the Brujah with Celerity.
-- Derek
Jesus saves, and only takes half damage
Tim Eijpe <tim....@MailAndNews.com> wrote in message news:<3B69...@MailAndNews.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Obfuscate is one of the best combat disciplines. Why do you think
Assamites have it? The suprise element isn't really represented in
VTES, other then disguised weapon, and sneaking up on someone is only
accomplished by hidden lurker. Remember that even after you hit
someone and break the concealment, you can still try to disappear
again. Imagine this with a sniper rifle. You are 200 yards away and
start shooting, what are they going to do? Hide your friends and
bring an anamilism army with you. Sneak up on someone, and
stake..problem solved. Vanish from minds eye, right in front of them,
and walk away. Mask of 1000 faces as a clan elder and tell them to
beat up someone you don't like instead of beating you up. Actually,
impersonating other people is probably the best power obfuscate has to
offer. High levels are even more fun. Hide someone's haven from
them. :)
BernieTime skrev i meddelandet
<20010726114928...@ng-fm1.aol.com>...
>In some regard I'm suprised that Obfuscate doesn't have a combat
>card giving First Strike during the 1st round of combat.
>
>While I'm aware there is no equivalent of First Strike in the WOD,
>it makes a certain intuitive sense in the CCG.
>
>; Agrippina sneaks up on you with a Torn Signpost, WHAM in
>the back o'yer noggin..
>
Hidden Lurker
>>In some regard I'm suprised that Obfuscate doesn't have a combat
>>card giving First Strike during the 1st round of combat.
>>
>>While I'm aware there is no equivalent of First Strike in the WOD,
>>it makes a certain intuitive sense in the CCG.
>>
>>; Agrippina sneaks up on you with a Torn Signpost, WHAM in
>>the back o'yer noggin..
>>>
>Hidden Lurker
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Only good if you're blocked and requires a second minion to
play. But I'm sure you already know that, right??
If you read my entire point, which I thought was VERY clear.
It's suprising that Obfuscate does not have a First Strike
card. First Strike being different from Hidden Lurker (it's
true! check the rulebook!). I'll grant you HL is similar, but
not the topic of discussion.
Anymore constructive critisicm Sparky??
Could you / Would you elaborate on your Hidden Lurker point of
interest?
Or would you prefer to stand in a field pointing at the sky shouting
"Balloon" to see if anyone is listening??
Hey look!! It's a Balloon!! <Pointing>
Bernie Bresnahan
One with the Umbra (Why not, everyone else is)..
BernieTime skrev i meddelandet
<20010726190523...@ng-fm1.aol.com>...
>>>In some regard I'm suprised that Obfuscate doesn't have a combat
>>>card giving First Strike during the 1st round of combat.
>>>
>>>While I'm aware there is no equivalent of First Strike in the WOD,
>>>it makes a certain intuitive sense in the CCG.
>>>
>>>; Agrippina sneaks up on you with a Torn Signpost, WHAM in
>>>the back o'yer noggin..
>>>>>
>>Hidden Lurker>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Only good if you're blocked and requires a second minion to
>play. But I'm sure you already know that, right??
Indeed
>If you read my entire point, which I thought was VERY clear.
>It's suprising that Obfuscate does not have a First Strike
>card. First Strike being different from Hidden Lurker (it's
>true! check the rulebook!). I'll grant you HL is similar, but
>not the topic of discussion.>Anymore constructive critisicm Sparky??
Did you call me Sparky? Ok, Wheezie!
>Could you / Would you elaborate on your Hidden Lurker point of
>interest?
If you'd like. My suggestion was that the first-strikey concept was covered
well by the Hidden Lurker (below known as HL). HL gives Agrippina a free
round of very sneaky torn-signpost-backstabbing, which well covers the nice
example you scenarized. And hey; it's even better than that crappy
first-strike monkey-business those assamites try to with celerity since the
poor opponent can't <insert any defensive strike here>.
"Agrippina sneaks up on you with a Torn Signpost, WHAM in the back o'yer
noggin.."
>Or would you prefer to stand in a field pointing at the sky shouting
>"Balloon" to see if anyone is listening??
>
>Hey look!! It's a Balloon!! <Pointing>
Hey look!! It's a HL!! <Hitting torpor hard>
/Henrik
In message <20010726190523...@ng-fm1.aol.com>, BernieTime
<berni...@aol.com> writes
>Could you / Would you elaborate on your Hidden Lurker point of
>interest?
That it models the point you raised:
"Agrippina sneaks up on you with a Torn Signpost, WHAM in
the back o'yer noggin.."
in a manner, but not in the one you want.
--
James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
"Surely somewhere out there there's a woman who's EBD690ECD7A1F
been sodomized by her father and is capable of B457CA213D7E6
composing a few coherent sentences on the subject." 68C3695D623D5D
>>Could you / Would you elaborate on your Hidden Lurker point of
>>interest?>If you'd like. My suggestion was that the first-strikey concept was covered
>well by the Hidden Lurker (below known as HL). HL gives Agrippina a free
>round of very sneaky torn-signpost-backstabbing, which well covers the nice
>example you scenarized. And hey; it's even better than that crappy
>first-strike monkey-business those assamites try to with celerity since the
>poor opponent can't <insert any defensive strike here>.
>"Agrippina sneaks up on you with a Torn Signpost, WHAM in the back o'yer
>noggin.."
Much better & thank you. I have a real pet peeve about people
that reply simply to waste air/time (text?) and having nothing really
to say.
As for HL, point taken. However, I believe that Obfuscate has
room to include a First Strike card of it's own.
The obvious benefits would primarily be for the Nosferatu Rush
archetype, or Guns/Strikes at range.
Granted, Strike:CE and Dodge still have a leg up but still provides
some incentive for play.
*Play card that allows me to declare my initial strike as 1st Strike
before range is chosen.
* Maneuver to Long and smack a Tremere with a sewer lid, before they
can play the nasty burn/steal blood strikes..
By putting a limit of only usable on first round of combat, would
create a cap no worse than the one on Behind You for it's
maneuver.
Bernie
>
>/Henrik