[LSJ] Therbold Realty and Centralized Background Check

In http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/2308549d4407a7da [LSJ 20080105], it's established that Palatial Estate, and loquipment generally, is reduced by Therbold Realty. In http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/465ad7136db92ef5 [LSJ 20060821], it's established that Centralized Background Check does *not* affect Weighted Walking Stick. Why? In http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/bc40dfe572592c72 [LSJ 19971020], it's established that "Loquipment is just equipment when it isn't in play (and is just location when it is in play)." To the best of my knowledge, this ruling has not been revoked, and was made when the cards used similar wording to today (i.e. they said they still said "represents a unique location" and didn't say "represents a unique location when in play", so a wording change shouldn't have avoided that ruling - the wording change in recent printings clarified the "does not count as equipment" situation). However, in the 2006 ruling (cited), the same reasoning is cited as the reason Centralized Background Check doesn't work on WWS. Fred Scott says, which is confirmed as Correct: *** > IANLSJ but I would say no. Weighted Walking Stick is not a weapon. > It is a combat card that gets put into play - then it becomes a > weapon once in play. *** So, as far as I can tell: - loquipment is equipment when out of play, a location when in play, and gets affected by things which alter the cost of locations - Weighted Walking Stick is combat when out of play, a weapon when in play, and doesn't get affected by things which alter the cost of weapons. Am I missing something? Hits for future searches: zip gun, equipment location -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

James Coupe wrote: > In > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/2308549d4407a7da > [LSJ 20080105], it's established that Palatial Estate, and loquipment > generally, is reduced by Therbold Realty. > > In > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/465ad7136db92ef5 > [LSJ 20060821], it's established that Centralized Background Check does > *not* affect Weighted Walking Stick. > > Why? WWS is a combat card. The combat card's cost is 0. It is not affected by CBC. Palatial Estate (and locquipment in general) is equipment in hand or library or ash heap, is both equipment and location when played (and paid), and is just location while in play. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/6fbdb3c3a2c9b043 Not pretty, but that's the situation. Better, perhaps, would have been to make "location" a new type, equal to "ally", "retainer", and "equipment" back when action-played locations were introduced. But it was dovetailed onto equipment instead. And this works reasonably well (for certain values of reasonably ;-) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Jan 14, 9:01 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > Inhttp://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/2308... > [LSJ 20080105], it's established that Palatial Estate, and loquipment > generally, is reduced by Therbold Realty. > > Inhttp://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/465a... > [LSJ 20060821], it's established that Centralized Background Check does > *not* affect Weighted Walking Stick. > > Why? > > Inhttp://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/bc40... > [LSJ 19971020], it's established that "Loquipment is just equipment when > it isn't in play (and is just location when it is in play)." To the > best of my knowledge, this ruling has not been revoked, and was made > when the cards used similar wording to today (i.e. they said they still > said "represents a unique location" and didn't say "represents a unique > location when in play", so a wording change shouldn't have avoided that > ruling - the wording change in recent printings clarified the "does not > count as equipment" situation). > > However, in the 2006 ruling (cited), the same reasoning is cited as the > reason Centralized Background Check doesn't work on WWS. Fred Scott > says, which is confirmed as Correct: > ***> IANLSJ but I would say no. Weighted Walking Stick is not a weapon. > > It is a combat card that gets put into play - then it becomes a > > weapon once in play. > > *** > > So, as far as I can tell: > > - loquipment is equipment when out of play, a location when in play, and > gets affected by things which alter the cost of locations > - Weighted Walking Stick is combat when out of play, a weapon when in > play, and doesn't get affected by things which alter the cost of > weapons. > > Am I missing something? > > Hits for future searches: zip gun, equipment location Just a shot in the dark... It could be that the difference is in the action -- maybe as an action resolves there is a window (during which, for loquipment, it is both equipment and location) that wouldn't exist anywhere else, i.e. no such window occurs during combat when a WWS changes from combat card to weapon.

On Jan 14, 6:19 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > WWS is a combat card. The combat card's cost is 0. It is not affected by CBC. > > Palatial Estate (and locquipment in general) is equipment in hand or library or > ash heap, is both equipment and location when played (and paid), and is just > location while in play. Palatial Estate is both a location and equipment when costs are paid. Why isn't Weighted Walking Stick both a combat card and a weapon when costs are paid? Something special about the way that costs are paid for combat cards vs. the way costs are paid for action cards? It seems like a very similar situation with an inconsistent result. Ira

pogowo...@gmail.com wrote: > Palatial Estate is both a location and equipment when costs are paid. > > Why isn't Weighted Walking Stick both a combat card and a weapon when > costs are paid? Because card text doesn't support that idea. Contrast the bold text on locquipment.

In message <u5Uij.7608$lo5....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net>, LSJ [ quoted text not captured ] Weighted Walking Stick has different text. However, Zip Gun has very similar text to locquipment. This card represents an equipment card and doesn't count as a combat card while in play. This seems to be exactly parallel to This equipment card represents a unique location and does not count as equipment while in play. So when Zip Gun is played/paid/in limbo, does it count as an equipment (like Palatial Estate counts as a location at that point), and hence would get affected by Centralized Background Check, but WWS doesn't? Both yes and no seem annoying. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > In message <u5Uij.7608$lo5....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net>, LSJ > <vte...@white-wolf.com> writes: >> pogowo...@gmail.com wrote: >>> Palatial Estate is both a location and equipment when costs are paid. >>> Why isn't Weighted Walking Stick both a combat card and a weapon >>> when >>> costs are paid? >> Because card text doesn't support that idea. Contrast the bold text on >> locquipment. > > Weighted Walking Stick has different text. However, Zip Gun has very > similar text to locquipment. > > This card represents an equipment card and doesn't count as a > combat card while in play. > > This seems to be exactly parallel to > > This equipment card represents a unique location and does not > count as equipment while in play. > > So when Zip Gun is played/paid/in limbo, does it count as an equipment > (like Palatial Estate counts as a location at that point), and hence > would get affected by Centralized Background Check, but WWS doesn't? > > > Both yes and no seem annoying. Zip gun has no bold text. It is a combat card. It is played as a combat card. It is never in limbo. It's cost is plaid when played, like all combat cards. The effect of the combat card's resolution is "put this card on this minion".

LSJ wrote: > It is a combat card. It is played as a combat card. It is never in > limbo. It's cost is plaid when played, like all combat cards. paid, not plaid. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Jan 16, 8:49 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > In message <u5Uij.7608$lo5.3...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net>, LSJ > > <vtes...@white-wolf.com> writes: > >pogowordwh...@gmail.com wrote: > >> Palatial Estate is both a location and equipment when costs are paid. > >> Why isn't Weighted Walking Stick both a combat card and a weapon > >>when > >> costs are paid? > > >Because card text doesn't support that idea. Contrast the bold text on > >locquipment. > > Weighted Walking Stick has different text. However, Zip Gun has very > similar text to locquipment. > > This card represents an equipment card and doesn't count as a > combat card while in play. > > This seems to be exactly parallel to > > This equipment card represents a unique location and does not > count as equipment while in play. The point where the parallel falls apart (other than the bold text and the limbo issues LSJ pointed out) that I don't think I've seen raised yet: "Equipment" and "Combat" are types of minion cards, with rules-level definitions. "Location" is a keyword that some cards have, and doesn't even appear in the glossary. There's no contradiction I can see in a card being both Equipment and Location at once (same as there's no contradiction between a card being Master and Location); it's entirely possible that there *is* a contradiction between a card being both Equipment and Combat at the same time, as they're two different types of cards according to the rules. > So when Zip Gun is played/paid/in limbo, does it count as an equipment > (like Palatial Estate counts as a location at that point), and hence > would get affected by Centralized Background Check, but WWS doesn't? > > Both yes and no seem annoying. I don't see any problem with the thought that loquipment is *always* a location, but only sometimes an equipment; on the other hand, Goblinism seems to make a distinction, which could just be clarifying or reminder, or it could be that while not being played/in play, since "Location." isn't a clear keyword at the start of the card, it's not a location. (LSJ - any thoughts on Loquipment reading "(Unique) Location. While in play, this card does not count as equipment." instead of the current phrasing?) - D.J.