Pot/Obf rush deck for critique.

I remember someone (Peter?) talking about a Pot/Obf rush deck a while ago, and I was inspired to try my own. I'm looking for ideas to improve it, in particular opinions about what the right balance for maneuvers is. And yes, I would put another Beast in if I had one. ;-) -Jasper "Beast's Butt Whuppin' Beat Down Patrol" VAMPIRES Ebanezer Roush Nosferatu 8 POT, OBF, rush Beast NosferatuA 7 POT, OBF, rush, +1 hand 2 Olivia NosferatuA 5 POT, OBF, bishop 2 Agatha NosferatuA 4 POT, obf 2 Duck Nosferatu 3 pot, obf 2 Watenda Malkavian 3 , obf, cancel KoKo Nosferatu 2 pot Lupo Brujah 2 pot CONSIDERING Nilolaus Vermeulen Nosferatu 7 POT, obf, prince, blood doll Murat Nosferatu 7 POT, OBF, prince Carlotta Giovanni 7 POT, obf, recycle 80 Cards MASTER: 13 Nosferatu Kingdom 2 HG Mob Connections 3 Blood Doll 3 Haven Uncovered 3 Potence OTHER: 20 10 Bums Rush 3 Taste of Vitae 5 Pulled Fangs 2 JS Simmons/Tasha Morgan POTENCE: 33 Disarm 7 Immortal Grapple 2 Fists of Death 5 Increased Strength 8 Torn Signpost 5 Undead Strength 5 Pushing the Limit OBFUSCATE: 14 2 1000k Faces 4 Hidden Lurker 8 Behind You IDEAS/NOTES Rack Palatial Estates Rampage IR Goggles? More Taste? Lose Mob and Kingdom? -- /\ Jasper Phillips /VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--. * http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`

Jasper Phillips (phil...@tx.ENGR.ORST.EDU) wrote: : I remember someone (Peter?) talking about a Pot/Obf rush deck a while ago, : and I was inspired to try my own. I'm looking for ideas to improve : it, in particular opinions about what the right balance for maneuvers : is. And yes, I would put another Beast in if I had one. ;-) Heh, heh. Yeah, I'd like to put a deck like this together myself, but I know it'd be just like his deck. However, I do have suggestions on this one. : VAMPIRES : Ebanezer Roush Nosferatu 8 POT, OBF, rush : Beast NosferatuA 7 POT, OBF, rush, +1 hand : 2 Olivia NosferatuA 5 POT, OBF, bishop : 2 Agatha NosferatuA 4 POT, obf : 2 Duck Nosferatu 3 pot, obf : 2 Watenda Malkavian 3 , obf, cancel : KoKo Nosferatu 2 pot : Lupo Brujah 2 pot I would take out Ebenezer and the Watendas. Eb because he's really too big for this deck, and Watenda because (a) without a master he's useless to you and (2) his special is too defensive. To replace, I would go with one of the following: Hasina Kesi (don't laugh, Peter will back me up on this one) Nigel the Shunned Agrippina (and try to find some way to exploit OBF) : : CONSIDERING : Nilolaus Vermeulen Nosferatu 7 POT, obf, prince, blood doll : Murat Nosferatu 7 POT, OBF, prince : Carlotta Giovanni 7 POT, obf, recycle All of these are big, and Nicolaus' ability won't alays work due to your mixed crypt. : : 80 Cards : : MASTER: 13 : Nosferatu Kingdom : 2 HG : Mob Connections : 3 Blood Doll : 3 Haven Uncovered : 3 Potence Ditch the Mob Connections and use Pot presses instead. I'm not a fan of Hunting Grounds, but that may be just a personal preference. : OTHER: 20 : 10 Bums Rush : 3 Taste of Vitae : 5 Pulled Fangs : 2 JS Simmons/Tasha Morgan More Tastes if you got 'em. I'm iffy about Mr. and Mrs. +1 Bleed. : POTENCE: 33 : Disarm : 7 Immortal Grapple : 2 Fists of Death : 5 Increased Strength : 8 Torn Signpost : 5 Undead Strength : 5 Pushing the Limit I always thought that Increased Strength was a good card until I put them in a deck. Getting an Increased Strength with no Potence strike sucks and happens more than you want it to. Take them out. I would also replace the Pushing the Limits with Undead Strengths and Mighty Grapples. : OBFUSCATE: 14 : 2 1000k Faces : 4 Hidden Lurker : 8 Behind You The Behind You!'s are a must. The others may or may not work, depending... I would try them out and see how things work. James ham...@math.wisc.edu

In article <6ju972$cf6$1...@news.nero.net>, Jasper Phillips <phil...@tx.ENGR.ORST.EDU> wrote: >I remember someone (Peter?) talking about a Pot/Obf rush deck a while ago, >and I was inspired to try my own. I'm looking for ideas to improve >it, in particular opinions about what the right balance for maneuvers >is. And yes, I would put another Beast in if I had one. ;-) >"Beast's Butt Whuppin' Beat Down Patrol" >VAMPIRES >Ebanezer Roush Nosferatu 8 POT, OBF, rush >Beast NosferatuA 7 POT, OBF, rush, +1 hand >2 Olivia NosferatuA 5 POT, OBF, bishop >2 Agatha NosferatuA 4 POT, obf >2 Duck Nosferatu 3 pot, obf >2 Watenda Malkavian 3 , obf, cancel >KoKo Nosferatu 2 pot >Lupo Brujah 2 pot That's not bad. But how about upgrading to ani/pot/obf? It's mostly Nos and !Nos anyhow, so you've got the mix there. More on this later. >CONSIDERING >Nilolaus Vermeulen Nosferatu 7 POT, obf, prince, blood doll >Murat Nosferatu 7 POT, OBF, prince >Carlotta Giovanni 7 POT, obf, recycle Nikolaus is just lovely, but I wouldn't use him unless you shift to pot/ani/obf; in a bidisciplinary deck, any 7pointers you use should damn well have both disciplines at superior. Contrariwise, Murat's a decent choice, but, unfortunately, lacks ani (but she's really nice in a Followers of Set Deck). I don't think you rely on tricky combos enough to make Carlotta's special applicable. >80 Cards > >MASTER: 13 > Nosferatu Kingdom >2 HG > Mob Connections >3 Blood Doll >3 Haven Uncovered >3 Potence I never had much use for Mob Connections, and Potence provides plenty of presses to continue. >OTHER: 20 >10 Bums Rush >3 Taste of Vitae >5 Pulled Fangs >2 JS Simmons/Tasha Morgan eeeh. I'm a little leery of the retainers here -- you could throw them out without seeing much of a performance hit. More tastes, especially if you do wind up including Drawing out the Beast. >POTENCE: 33 > Disarm >7 Immortal Grapple >2 Fists of Death >5 Increased Strength >8 Torn Signpost >5 Undead Strength >5 Pushing the Limit This is okay, although you're a little low on Pot strikes to reliably use the Increased Strengths (which is more of a card for a pitch deck anyway). Consider chucking them for Decapitates, Disarms, Burning Wraths, more Grapples, or more Undead Strength/Pushing the Limit/ Mighty Grapple/Growing Fury. >OBFUSCATE: 14 >2 1000k Faces >4 Hidden Lurker >8 Behind You I'm not sure what use you're going to get out of the M1KF. Lurkers are nice, but you need obf maneuvers. The Behind yous are really nice. Some Swallowed by the Night is a good idea -- you can't grapple if you're at long range, and around here S:CE really means 'maneuver to long range and S:CE' due to the prevalence of Grapples. And here is where Drawing out the Beast really comes into its own (and why I'm pushing for the inclusion of Animalism). It hoses, utterly hoses, defensive maneuvering and ensures you'll be able to successfully use the Grapples. More Tastes to make up for the extra hand damage of the opponents and go to town. >IDEAS/NOTES > Rack Can't defend it. Rack's a 'come get me' card useful for intercept decks. > Palatial Estates Always nice. > Rampage nice for hosing bad locations like Elysium/hunting grounds, and almost as good as a bum's rush. > IR Goggles? Permanents are good for long-haul decks, but the actions needed to get 'em out hurt you in the short-haul. use your own judgement to strike a balance. gomi -- go ahead, wreck your life: that might be good who can say what's wrong or right? nobody can

In article <6jurpo$jhu$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu>, James Hamblin <ham...@math.wisc.edu> wrote: >Jasper Phillips (phil...@tx.ENGR.ORST.EDU) wrote: >: I remember someone (Peter?) talking about a Pot/Obf rush deck a while ago, >: and I was inspired to try my own. I'm looking for ideas to improve >: it, in particular opinions about what the right balance for maneuvers >: is. And yes, I would put another Beast in if I had one. ;-) > >Heh, heh. Yeah, I'd like to put a deck like this together myself, but I >know it'd be just like his deck. However, I do have suggestions on this >one. Yah, that tends to have the same effect where I play too. Nobody wants to copy someone else's deck. I'm such a Nos freak I had to make this though. ;-) >: VAMPIRES >: Ebanezer Roush Nosferatu 8 POT, OBF, rush >: Beast NosferatuA 7 POT, OBF, rush, +1 hand >: 2 Olivia NosferatuA 5 POT, OBF, bishop >: 2 Agatha NosferatuA 4 POT, obf >: 2 Duck Nosferatu 3 pot, obf >: 2 Watenda Malkavian 3 , obf, cancel >: KoKo Nosferatu 2 pot >: Lupo Brujah 2 pot > >I would take out Ebenezer and the Watendas. Eb because he's really too >big for this deck, and Watenda because (a) without a master he's useless >to you and (2) his special is too defensive. To replace, I would go with >one of the following: > >Hasina Kesi (don't laugh, Peter will back me up on this one) >Nigel the Shunned >Agrippina (and try to find some way to exploit OBF) Yah, Ebanezer really isn't all the great. I'll probably switch him for Hasina. Watenda does need a skill card to get going, but his ability is far from defensive. Use it to cancel Majesty, Fortitude, Maneuvers, etc. The extra flexibility that Watenda allows is huge. >: CONSIDERING >: Nilolaus Vermeulen Nosferatu 7 POT, obf, prince, blood doll >: Murat Nosferatu 7 POT, OBF, prince >: Carlotta Giovanni 7 POT, obf, recycle > >All of these are big, and Nicolaus' ability won't alays work due to your >mixed crypt. Yah, none of these really fit. The most likely one would be Carlotta, since she'd potentially help quite a bit when I run low on deck. >: 80 Cards >: >: MASTER: 13 >: Nosferatu Kingdom >: 2 HG >: Mob Connections >: 3 Blood Doll >: 3 Haven Uncovered >: 3 Potence > >Ditch the Mob Connections and use Pot presses instead. I'm not a fan of >Hunting Grounds, but that may be just a personal preference. You don't like Hunting Grounds? Wow. Pretty much gotta have pool/blood gain somehow, and the combo with the Blood Doll is always good... I'm tempted to work in more Taste of Vitae instead, but it's just not as flexible. The Mob Connections is borderline, and will likely go. >: OTHER: 20 >: 10 Bums Rush >: 3 Taste of Vitae >: 5 Pulled Fangs >: 2 JS Simmons/Tasha Morgan > >More Tastes if you got 'em. I'm iffy about Mr. and Mrs. +1 Bleed. I kept them low because I have so many small vamps, but I always find them usefull, so more might be good. I'm still undecided about the bleed bonus: There's not enough to hand jam me, and that extra little bit of bleed helps when your prey's vamps are gone, but he has a fair amount of pool. >: POTENCE: 33 >: Disarm >: 7 Immortal Grapple >: 2 Fists of Death >: 5 Increased Strength >: 8 Torn Signpost >: 5 Undead Strength >: 5 Pushing the Limit > >I always thought that Increased Strength was a good card until I put them >in a deck. Getting an Increased Strength with no Potence strike sucks and >happens more than you want it to. Take them out. Doesn't happen too often to me. They kick ass. Extra stackable damage is great and there is really no weakness, since even if you can't play it for damage, you can still use it for free and get another card -- the only (very mild) cost is that when you do get them clumped you burn through your deck faster than you'd like. A very similar effect to having too many strike cards and having to discard. >I would also replace the Pushing the Limits with Undead Strengths and >Mighty Grapples. Hmmm, I never cared much for Mighty Grapple. I'm much more interested in putting someone out in one strike, especially since I have no damage avoidance. >: OBFUSCATE: 14 >: 2 1000k Faces >: 4 Hidden Lurker >: 8 Behind You > >The Behind You!'s are a must. The others may or may not work, >depending... I would try them out and see how things work. The Hidden Lurkers have worked fairly well for me, since they are essentially additional rush, damage prevention, and Immortal Grapple. The 1000k Faces never seem to work out, which is mostly my fault since I forget to use them when I could trivially cycle them, and always end up waiting until I've tapped the neccesary vampires. Also, this is one of the places I think Watenda really kicks in. He can cancel Maneuvers, and I don't have to play paper scissors rock as much trying to guess how many maneuvers to include. >James >ham...@math.wisc.edu Thanks for the input. :-) -Jasper [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <6juuup$prs$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>, Gomi no Sensei <go...@best.com> wrote: >In article <6ju972$cf6$1...@news.nero.net>, >Jasper Phillips <phil...@tx.ENGR.ORST.EDU> wrote: >>I remember someone (Peter?) talking about a Pot/Obf rush deck a while ago, >>and I was inspired to try my own. I'm looking for ideas to improve >>it, in particular opinions about what the right balance for maneuvers >>is. And yes, I would put another Beast in if I had one. ;-) > >>"Beast's Butt Whuppin' Beat Down Patrol" [Vamps snipped] >That's not bad. But how about upgrading to ani/pot/obf? It's mostly >Nos and !Nos anyhow, so you've got the mix there. More on this later. I already have 3 different decks that rely on Drawing out the Beast... Plus sticking to the 2 lets my crypt be quite a bit smaller (although Nigel is always great fun :-) ). [Other potential vampires I included snipped] Yah, they really aren't worth it. Just remnants of my thought process. >>80 Cards >> >>MASTER: 13 >> Nosferatu Kingdom >>2 HG >> Mob Connections >>3 Blood Doll >>3 Haven Uncovered >>3 Potence > >I never had much use for Mob Connections, and Potence provides plenty >of presses to continue. I suppose. I do find that extra permanent press usefull from time to time, but it's hardly crucial. Probably will leave to make way for more Tastes. > >>OTHER: 20 >>10 Bums Rush >>3 Taste of Vitae >>5 Pulled Fangs >>2 JS Simmons/Tasha Morgan > >eeeh. I'm a little leery of the retainers here -- you could throw >them out without seeing much of a performance hit. More tastes, >especially if you do wind up including Drawing out the Beast. Those are on test. There isn't enough to clog, and they've come in handy. Since it doesn't seem to signifigantly water the rest of the deck down I'm tempted to keep them. >>POTENCE: 33 >> Disarm >>7 Immortal Grapple >>2 Fists of Death >>5 Increased Strength >>8 Torn Signpost >>5 Undead Strength >>5 Pushing the Limit > >This is okay, although you're a little low on Pot strikes to reliably >use the Increased Strengths (which is more of a card for a pitch deck >anyway). Consider chucking them for Decapitates, Disarms, Burning >Wraths, more Grapples, or more Undead Strength/Pushing the Limit/ >Mighty Grapple/Growing Fury. Nobody seems to like Increased Strength... Personally I think it's great. Cards that potentially do nothing are only really a threat if they stay around to clog your hand. I've never had trouble getting rid of Increased Strength on the (fairly rare) occasions when I couldn't use it. >>OBFUSCATE: 14 >>2 1000k Faces >>4 Hidden Lurker >>8 Behind You > >I'm not sure what use you're going to get out of the M1KF. Lurkers are >nice, but you need obf maneuvers. The Behind yous are really nice. >Some Swallowed by the Night is a good idea -- you can't grapple if >you're at long range, and around here S:CE really means 'maneuver to >long range and S:CE' due to the prevalence of Grapples. True, but if you include too many maneuvers you'll jam against decks that don't (like most). Anyway I don't have enough OBF to make Swallowed by Night usefull for maneuvers. 1000k is in there for suprise value, and I don't really have any problem with it, since it's easily cycled. >And here is where Drawing out the Beast really comes into its own (and >why I'm pushing for the inclusion of Animalism). It hoses, utterly >hoses, defensive maneuvering and ensures you'll be able to successfully >use the Grapples. More Tastes to make up for the extra hand damage >of the opponents and go to town. True, plus it's not nearly as likely to jam your hand. However I have lots of small vamps and no damage prevention. Drawing out the beast would be kicking my ass too, and including animalism would neccesitate a higher average crypt. I only really like it in combination with Fortitude, or Hidden Lurker. >>IDEAS/NOTES >> Rack > >Can't defend it. Rack's a 'come get me' card useful for intercept decks. True, although I'm not afraid to go and get it. >> Palatial Estates > >Always nice. Yah, this will probably go in to replace the bleed bonus or Mob Connection at some point. However I only have one, and switch enough cards between decks as it is. >> Rampage > >nice for hosing bad locations like Elysium/hunting grounds, and almost >as good as a bum's rush. True, I should put it back in, although strangely nobody around here seems to play the Elysium. >gomi Thanks. :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <199805210232...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, PDB6 <pd...@aol.com> wrote: >Jasper Philips wrote: >"Yah, that tends to have the same effect where I play too. Nobody >wants to copy someone else's deck. I'm such a Nos freak I had to make this >though. ;-)" > >Hey! Yer making my deck! Doh! Heh, I figured that since the only thing I'd heard about it was that it was Pot/Obf I wouldn't be too close... >" The extra flexibility that Watenda allows is huge." > >But, however, Watenda does not start with Pot, which is a major disadvantage. >Unless you draw an early Pot skill card, Watenda will be completely useless. >The strength of small vampires in a Rush deck is being able to churn them out >quickly and attack immediately. Getting Watenda out on the first tuen doesn't >help at all if he doesn't learn Pot immediately. Hesina Kesi (or some other 1 >or 2 point Pot vamp) comes out on your first turn and kills a vampire on your >second, regardless of skill cards. After playing with her for a while, man, >that Hesina Kesi needs to be in every Pot deck... What you say is true, but there's no particular reason to bring Watenda out until you have a potence skill card. I find that I really burn through cards with this deck, and the only drawback is that my 4th vampire will come out slower instead of my 5th -- a risk I am entirely willing to take considering Watenda's brutality. Against decks that can even partially fight back Watenda is essential: Lots of decks play with fortitude around here, and people with maneuvers often have alot -- largely since we reduced the cost of non-unique weapons by 1 recently, and people are trying out moderatly succesfull gun decks. Incidentally reducing weapons' cost (and disciplineless Concealed Weapon) has helped alot, despite the annoying fact that it increases the utility of already usefull cards like Immortal Grapple, and Drawing out the Beast. Weapon decks hardly kick ass, but at least they don't get totally stomped. I'd even go for reducing the cost of non unique weapons by 2. >Leave Carlotta out and make the deck 90 cards. I'd also go for a smaller crypt >in general (but then you'd be making my deck eevn more :-). The 7s are good >vampires, but as you are playing a 2 discipline deck, you can easily make it >with all 5 and less vampires. The deck definitly needs to be 90 cards, and probably the only person over 5 I'll keep is Beast. I have to admit I want to include Carlotta mostly because I like the card, not because it really fits. >">: Nosferatu Kingdom" > >I'd lose the Nosferatu Kingdom. It is amazingly good in a pure !Nos deck, but >with mixed, small vampires, it will never work out the way you hope it will. I >know. I tried... I was thinking the same thing actually, but thought I'd try it, partially since there's a good chance that I'll have a duplicate !Nos (good term) after a few crypt pulls. And in any event I seem to cycle fine anyway, and so can ditch it if it isn't usefull, which might be worth it considering the potential pool gain. I'll probably take it out, even though I hate to make a deck completely focused. > >"...I'm tempted to work in more Taste of Vitae instead, but it's just not as >flexible." > >Oh man, Taste is the best card in the world. You can always play it, it >ususally does good, and most of the time does definite good. I'd go with 8 or >10, m'self. I don't use Hunting Grounds in combat decks either. They are too >expensive for a deck with low pool gain potential and have a fairly protracted >benefit. Rely on the Tastes instead. The HGs always come in usefull when your vamps are out of blood, and have to hunt. Still their cost is high, and Tastes would tend to alleviate the problem... I'll have to think about it. >">: 10 Bums Rush >>: 3 Taste of Vitae >>: 2 JS Simmons/Tasha Morgan" > >Go more Bum's Rush. Lose the Bleed people. If you are tapping to get a >retainer, you aren't killing someone... That's the thing, I often find I'm not tapping to kill someone because there's either nobody left (although I guess I could start going cross table). Anyway, they are expirimental, and too date have helped, if only marginally. Probably not worth the potential, even if slim, of hand jam. >Pushing the Limit isn't really needed, nor is Fists of Death. If you can't >kill yopur opponent with 5 hand damage from a Signpost and an Undead Strength >combined with either a few presses or Pulled Fangs/Disarm, the extra hand >damage from those two cards certainly isn't going to help, and the Blood cost >is pretty severe, considering the small vampires used. Increased Strength is >also semi questionable, as others have pointed out. I'd replace some or all >with Undead Strength or Torn Signpost. Don't underestimate the Mighty Grapple >either. 4 hand damage (TS+MG) is often all you need to kill someone, and the >presses can be invaluable. I still think Increased Strength is awesome, especially considering there's no opurtunity cost -- it either kicks ass, or it's like it was never in my hand at all. You do make a good point about Mighty Grapple, but there is often the press from IG (and the mob connections). In any event the extra damage helps most with little potence vamps, and is worth it IMHO to make them a bigger threat. >"Hmmm, I never cared much for Mighty Grapple. I'm much more interested in >putting someone out in one strike, especially since I have no damage >avoidance." > >A good theory, but usually not difficult to do with just 5 hand damage. If >your opponent can survive 5 hand damage, he is either very large or using >Fortitude. Fortitude will make your life hard, and pressess are the only >reliable way to fight it. Having more Tastes will help with damage avoidance. >Just hope you don't run into the Gangrel... The presses would help against fortitude, although generally when I'm up against fortitude I'm in torpor, one of the reasons I'm not too keen on presses. Anyway the damage with MG is only 4, and a measely 2 with inf.pot. >">: 2 1000k Faces >>: 4 Hidden Lurker" > >The M10K is very questionable. If the Hidden Lurkers are working, go with it, >but from my point of view, if it takes 2 vampires to do the work of one, I'm >losing anyway. I can't see how 1000k is very questionable, since you can easily cycle it, and there's not so much of it to jam during combat. There are often a lot of combat decks around here, and the threat of it is nice, since who's rushing often determines who blocks. HL does take 2 vamps, but often enough 1 isn't enough, and the combination IG, "fortitude", and rush has worked. [ quoted text not captured ]

PDB6 wrote in message <199805210232...@ladder01.news.aol.com>... >Jasper Philips wrote: <snip most deck critique> >Pushing the Limit isn't really needed, nor is Fists of Death. If you can't >kill yopur opponent with 5 hand damage from a Signpost and an Undead Strength >combined with either a few presses or Pulled Fangs/Disarm, the extra hand >damage from those two cards certainly isn't going to help, and the Blood cost >is pretty severe, considering the small vampires used. Increased Strength is >also semi questionable, as others have pointed out. I'd replace some or all >with Undead Strength or Torn Signpost. Don't underestimate the Mighty Grapple >either. 4 hand damage (TS+MG) is often all you need to kill someone, and the >presses can be invaluable. I don't mean to do major damage to the combo here, but I *thought* that Torn Signpost has been ruled to read that you may strike at +1 or +2 (or at 2/3 hand damage for the remainder of combat). This screws my decks as well, but the V:TES version of the card goes (off WOTC homepage, as LSJ's doesn't have V:TES cardlist): Card Title: Torn SignpostBlood/Pool: n/aClan/Discip.: Potence Card Type: Combat Card Text: Only usable before range is determined. This vampire can inflict 2 hand damage as a strike for remainder of the combat. (S) As above, but vampire can inflict 3 hand damage as a strike for the remainder of the combat. Looks to me like "as a strike" means that the card = Undead Strength but applies for the whole combat...I wish it didn't, but that's how I've been playing it for the last year or so...if played with Jyhad text, it'd mean that my Ebanezer deck could get off a 15 hand damage strike (or 17 if I bothered to include Increased Strength...)...sigh... >"Hmmm, I never cared much for Mighty Grapple. I'm much more interested in >putting someone out in one strike, especially since I have no damage >avoidance." Mighty Grapple sucks without something else to back it up. Although in a deck where you're not trying to get off one big strike to knock out the opposing vampire, it might be okay...like in a Cel/Pot deck. >A good theory, but usually not difficult to do with just 5 hand damage. If >your opponent can survive 5 hand damage, he is either very large or using >Fortitude. Fortitude will make your life hard, and pressess are the only >reliable way to fight it. Having more Tastes will help with damage avoidance. >Just hope you don't run into the Gangrel... Stupid Gangrel...stupid Fortitude (esp. Skin of Steel...) all going and ruining my Eb deck... >">: 2 1000k Faces >>: 4 Hidden Lurker" > >The M10K is very questionable. If the Hidden Lurkers are working, go with it, >but from my point of view, if it takes 2 vampires to do the work of one, I'm >losing anyway. I'd agree that the M1K is questionable. You don't really have any actions you *need* to mask, so why bother? There's not much point masking a Bum's Rush, so...ditch all stealth or put a little more in, don't just go with 2 M1K. I think somebody already mentioned Swallowed by the Night, and you said that you didn't have many, but if you *can* get some, they're so worth it. Behind You is good as well, but I still can't get over +1 stealth/Maneuver...too damn sweet. Xian

In article <6k1ahv$t...@epx.cis.umn.edu>, Xian <xi...@waste.org> wrote: >PDB6 wrote in message <199805210232...@ladder01.news.aol.com>... >>Jasper Philips wrote: [snip] >>">: 2 1000k Faces >>>: 4 Hidden Lurker" >> >>The M10K is very questionable. If the Hidden Lurkers are working, go with >it, >>but from my point of view, if it takes 2 vampires to do the work of one, >I'm >>losing anyway. > > >I'd agree that the M1K is questionable. You don't really have any actions >you *need* to mask, so why bother? There's not much point masking a Bum's >Rush, so...ditch all stealth or put a little more in, don't just go with 2 >M1K. I think somebody already mentioned Swallowed by the Night, and you >said that you didn't have many, but if you *can* get some, they're so worth >it. Behind You is good as well, but I still can't get over +1 >stealth/Maneuver...too damn sweet. > >Xian Actually, I find it's better with just a little, since it keeps people guessing, but doesn't take much space. Whether it's actually worth including at all I'm not sure, but I can definitly see uses for it against decks that can fight back. Anyway, it's certainly not in there for the stealth. Also, swallowed by night would suck in this deck, since even before I removed Ebanezer, it's only got 2 vampires with OBF, and I genearlly wouldn't be able to use the maneuver. [ quoted text not captured ]

: I don't mean to do major damage to the combo here, but I *thought* that Torn : Signpost has been ruled to read that you may strike at +1 or +2 (or at 2/3 : hand damage for the remainder of combat). This screws my decks as well, but : the V:TES version of the card goes (off WOTC homepage, as LSJ's doesn't have : V:TES cardlist): No, no. Torn Signpost works the way it did in Jyhad; they just tried to clear up the wording in V:tES and made things worse. LSJ might be able to word this better, but the card should read: Torn Signpost Inf: This vampire's base hand damage is 2 for the remainder of the round. Sup: " " " " " 3 " " " " The point is, it ups your hand damage by 1 or 2 and is not stackable. The wording problem came from how to say "non stackable" in Jyhad lingo. James ham...@math.wisc.edu

Xian wrote: > I don't mean to do major damage to the combo here, but I *thought* that Torn > Signpost has been ruled to read that you may strike at +1 or +2 (or at 2/3 > hand damage for the remainder of combat). This screws my decks as well, but > the V:TES version of the card goes (off WOTC homepage, as LSJ's doesn't have > V:TES cardlist): > > Card Text: Only usable before range is determined. This vampire > can inflict 2 hand damage as a strike for remainder of > the combat. > (S) As above, but vampire can inflict 3 hand damage as > a strike for the remainder of the combat. > > Looks to me like "as a strike" means that the card = Undead Strength but > applies for the whole combat...I wish it didn't, but that's how I've been > playing it for the last year or so...if played with Jyhad text, it'd mean > that my Ebanezer deck could get off a 15 hand damage strike (or 17 if I > bothered to include Increased Strength...)...sigh... The VTES version has been errata'ed by the RT to work the way the Jyhad card reads - it just sets the vampire's hand damage to 2 or 3. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Searchable database of official card text, errata, and rulings: http://deckserver.net/cgi-deckserver/rulemonger.cgi/powersearch

Xian wrote: "I don't mean to do major damage to the combo here, but I *thought* that Torn Signpost has been ruled to read that you may strike at +1 or +2 (or at 2/3 hand damage for the remainder of combat). This screws my decks as well, but the V:TES version of the card goes (off WOTC homepage, as LSJ's doesn't have V:TES cardlist):" As I'm sure someone has already pointed out, Torn Signpost does nothing but give a vampire 2 or 3 base hand damage for the remainder of combat. It does not constitute a strike in and of itself, nor is it a melee weapon or anything like that. The VTES version of TS is very poorly worded, but I assure you that it simply gives a vampire a larger base hand damage. Assuming POT, a vampire who plays TS has 3 base hand damage. He may then play Fists of Death for an additional +2 hand damage, and then strike with Undead Strength for a total of 7 hand damage. "Mighty Grapple sucks without something else to back it up. Although in a deck where you're not trying to get off one big strike to knock out the opposing vampire, it might be okay...like in a Cel/Pot deck." Mighty Grapple is good in that it is a press and additional hand damage at superior. With good utilitarian presses (like MG), small vampires like KoKo can cause a great deal of damage. KoKo Rushes someone, plays TS to get 2 hand damage, Immortally Grapples his opponent, strikes with Undead Strength for 3, Tastes, uses MG for a press, and strikes again for 2. This will send a full capacity 4 point vampire to torpor, bloodless, which is what KoKo is meant to do. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "When they kick out your front door, how you gonna come? with your hands on your head or the trigger of your gun?" -The Clash

Jasper wrote: "Heh, I figured that since the only thing I'd heard about it was that it was Pot/Obf I wouldn't be too close..." Well, with Pot/Obf, there really isn't that much room to move :-) I'll be sure to post mine after I get my ass kicked at Origins... "What you say is true, but there's no particular reason to bring Watenda out until you have a potence skill card." Hmm. Watenda. Not bad in reality, but I generally don't like relying on drawing the skill cards. The offensive use of his ability is pretty clever, though. "I was thinking the same thing actually, but thought I'd try it, partially since there's a good chance that I'll have a duplicate !Nos (good term)" Who came up with that? I saw someone reputible using it in some post recently and decided to spread it around. It is real handy. "And in any event I seem to cycle fine anyway, and so can ditch it if it isn't usefull, which might be worth it considering the potential pool gain. I'll probably take it out, even though I hate to make a deck completely focused." Yeah, I suppose. I always find that I never have enough room for masters, so I can't aford to have ones that are only occasioanlly useful. I am, however, using Storm Sewers, which you seem to be omitting. Storm Sewers is very strong. "The HGs always come in usefull when your vamps are out of blood, and have to hunt. Still their cost is high, and Tastes would tend to alleviate the problem... I'll have to think about it." There is no question as to the utility of Hunting grounds in general, but while some folks seem to automatically include them in every deck they build, I am ususally very critical of them. They are expensive, so if you draw them late in the game, you can't play them. Their benefit is fairly long term and slow considering their high cost. I use them in many decks, but in Rush decks where I can rely on Taste to fill my vampires, I replace them with other vital Masters. "I can't see how 1000k is very questionable, since you can easily cycle it, and there's not so much of it to jam during combat." Cause they are 2 cards that could be, like, Pulled Fangs or Immortal Grapples. Having 2 cards that ocasioanally are surprising and rarely give +1 stealth just isn't worth it. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <199805212328...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, PDB6 <pd...@aol.com> wrote: >Jasper wrote: >"Heh, I figured that since the only thing I'd heard about it was that it was >Pot/Obf I wouldn't be too close..." > >Well, with Pot/Obf, there really isn't that much room to move :-) Well, you could go for some sort of wacky Increased Strength Pitch deck, which actually might be pretty good... If only I had more Increased Strength. >I'll be sure to post mine after I get my ass kicked at Origins... Heh, I'm not really sure just yet how good Pot/Obf is... I'm beggining to like it alot since it's as fast and brutal as Pot/Cel, but I'm guessing it would have the edge over Pot/Cel head to head because of the higher damage on the first strike. >"What you say is true, but there's no particular reason to bring Watenda out >until you have a potence skill card." > >Hmm. Watenda. Not bad in reality, but I generally don't like relying on >drawing the skill cards. The offensive use of his ability is pretty clever, >though. Try it, you'll like it. :-) Against decks that a rush deck normally hoses the minor loss of speed won't really hurt -- an easy price to pay for the added flexibility in dealing with decks that can be a real pain in the ass, especially those Skin of Steel Bastards. ;-) >"And in any event I seem to cycle fine anyway, and so can ditch it if it isn't >usefull, which might be worth it considering the potential pool gain. I'll >probably take it out, even though I hate to make a deck completely focused." > >Yeah, I suppose. I always find that I never have enough room for masters, so I >can't aford to have ones that are only occasioanlly useful. I am, however, >using Storm Sewers, which you seem to be omitting. Storm Sewers is very >strong. Good point, I'd kind of forgotten about it. I never really liked the fact that you had to use it ahead of time, but I suppose that doesn't really matter much in a deck like this. Hmmm, after looking at it again I see it only works if you're blocked... then again if you're not you get the maneuver from Bum's Rush. Anyway, in this deck it's certainly better than the !Nos Kingdom. >There is no question as to the utility of Hunting grounds in general,but while >some folks seem to automatically include them in every deck they build, I am >ususally very critical of them. They are expensive, so if you draw them late >in the game, you can't play them. Their benefit is fairly long term and slow >considering their high cost. I use them in many decks, but in Rush decks where >I can rely on Taste to fill my vampires, I replace them with other vital >Masters. I have to admit I did include them as a knee jerk reaction, but I don't own too many tastes, and couldn't think of any other masters that fit any better. >"I can't see how 1000k is very questionable,since you can easily cycle it, and >there's not so much of it to jam during combat." > >Cause they are 2 cards that could be, like, Pulled Fangs or Immortal Grapples. >Having 2cards that ocasioanally are surprising and rarely give +1 stealth just >isn't worth it. Well, I'm not really arguing that they're good, just saying they're not completely worthless. ;-) [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <6k340h$8p1$1...@news.NERO.NET>, Jasper Phillips <phil...@tx.ENGR.ORST.EDU> wrote: >In article <199805212328...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, >PDB6 <pd...@aol.com> wrote: >>Jasper wrote: >>"Heh, I figured that since the only thing I'd heard about it was that it was >>Pot/Obf I wouldn't be too close..." >> >>Well, with Pot/Obf, there really isn't that much room to move :-) > >Well, you could go for some sort of wacky Increased Strength Pitch >deck, which actually might be pretty good... If only I had more >Increased Strength. Of course, this would actually suck, since you'd have no way to deal with S:CE or dodge. I was dreaming for a second there. :-/ [ quoted text not captured ]

PDB6 wrote in message <199805212328...@ladder03.news.aol.com>... >Jasper wrote: >"I was thinking the same thing actually, but thought I'd try it, partially >since there's a good chance that I'll have a duplicate !Nos (good term)" > >Who came up with that? I saw someone reputible using it in some post recently >and decided to spread it around. It is real handy. I first saw Gomi using it...although we'd have to ask him. Xian

In article <6k49kt$j...@epx.cis.umn.edu>, Xian <xi...@waste.org> wrote: >PDB6 wrote in message <199805212328...@ladder03.news.aol.com>... >>Jasper wrote: >>"I was thinking the same thing actually, but thought I'd try it, partially >>since there's a good chance that I'll have a duplicate !Nos (good term)" >>Who came up with that? I saw someone reputible using it in some post >recently >>and decided to spread it around. It is real handy. >I first saw Gomi using it...although we'd have to ask him. Ya, that was me. I guess c jargon stuck to me from all the codegeeks I hang out with (!= means not equal in c, for those unversed in the language). It's nice shorthand for the anticlans. gomi wow, i'm reputable now [ quoted text not captured ]