Egothha

We had this situation come up recently and I wanted to ask everyone how they have dealt w/ a similar situation. The active player had a ready Egothha out but didn't ask his prey to burn the top card of their library during the untap step. During the Master step the active player realized the missed effect and asked his prey to burn the top card of their library. This started a long debate about how to handle missed effects. Any suggestions/comments would be appreciated. Thanks.

"serge" <serge...@cox.net> schreef in bericht news:1130500994.7...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] IANLSJ, but IIRC, it works like this: Well, you have to look at the card text: Egotha: Sabbat: During your untap phase, if Egothha is ready, your prey burns the top card of his or her library; if that card is a master card, Egothha gains 1 blood. It happens automatically. It cannot be skipped. If you forget, you have to rewind the game to the untap phase (if possible) contrast with: Kurt Densch: Camarilla: During your untap phase, you *may* look at the top card of your library, and Kurt may burn 1 blood to move that card to the bottom of your library. +1 intercept. It's not mandatory. So you can forget it. Same with eg, pool from the edge and counters on the Week of Nightmares.

The fact that it was a "mandatory" effect is what caused the debate. Since the missed effect was caught during the following Master step it was reasonable to "rewind" the game. Normally this would not have cause such commotion but the "prey" had already lost 20+ cards to (4) Slaughterhouses. Another part of the debate was who was responsible for making sure all mandatory effects are handled per step.

serge wrote: > The fact that it was a "mandatory" effect is what caused the debate. > Since the missed effect was caught during the following Master step it > was reasonable to "rewind" the game. I assume you mean "unreasonable" to rewind a whole turn. When you can't rewind, you should instead try to "jump back" to the point of the error and fix it. Making the prey lose to Egotha once the error is noticed is a fine solution, IMO. > Normally this would not have cause > such commotion but the "prey" had already lost 20+ cards to (4) > Slaughterhouses. Obviously this has no bearing on the solution but I can see how the whole thing gets emotionally charged as your deck gets obliterated. > Another part of the debate was who was responsible for > making sure all mandatory effects are handled per step. Actually, it isn't relevant. My group always tended to focus on who was responsible too. The reason we wanted to know who was responsible was so we could know who to blame for the error. And then once you know who to blame you can punish them. For example, "It is *your* responsibility to remember Egotha and since you forgot, too bad for you. It's your own fault!" But, in truth, it is everyone's responsibility to remember things like this. And then, when an error is made, the judge is supposed to return the game state to where it would have been had the error not occurred. The judge cannot find the person responsible and return the game to a less than fair state as punishment. Instead, the responsible party, if any, is penalized using the warning system. -Robert

On 28 Oct 2005 05:33:19 -0700, "serge" <serge...@cox.net> scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] If the only thing that happened in between was losing a bunch of other cards from their library, if it was shuffled correctly in the first place it shouldn't matter whether egottha goes first or last. (assuming no knowledge of the content of the top cards in the deck was possessed by the player). Automatic effects, i beleive, have the onus on the entire table to remember. as a judge, i would put primary emphasis on the player controlling egottha, and secondary emphasis on the prey. but everyone would be responsible. salem http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 10:45:11 +1000, salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Automatic effects, i beleive, have the onus on the entire table to > remember. as a judge, i would put primary emphasis on the player > controlling egottha, and secondary emphasis on the prey. but everyone > would be responsible. I'm usually very firm on insisting that the player playing with a certain effect should know that effect intimately and remind other players of it. -- Bye, Daneel

[ quoted text not captured ] That's true. Also true is that every other player should remind that player of any such mandatory effects. That is, it's everyone's responsibility, regardless of who controls the effect or whom the effect benefits or hurts. -- That is my story, be it bitter or be it sweet. Keep a little and let a little come back to me. LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply) http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

In message <opszec88...@news.chello.hu>, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> writes: [ quoted text not captured ] "I'm sorry, I borrowed this deck at the last minute" is a fairly simple rebuttal which turns up in many tournaments I've been at with - for example - players who didn't know about the tournament much in advance, players who thought they were going to be working but aren't, player who thought they couldn't get a lift there but it turns out they can, and so on. I've done it myself, when we were hoping for enough players that a judge would be necessary but it turned out to be small enough to be multi-judged (before the changes to those rules), and so quite a lot of the deck was new to me. In multi-deck games, I've borrowed a deck from someone for the last round because my deck was pissing me off/not flowing right/needed a lot of work etc. Ditto "I'm new to the game, I don't know all the cards yet, someone else helped me build this deck." Also "I'm sorry, I hadn't checked the errata recently, I didn't know that that effect had been changed." It's really quite easy for a player to not be intimately familiar with the effects of their deck if for no other reason than they have a real life and they just play V:TES casually with any old random deck they happen to have to hand. I'd rather not frighten off such players by insisting they spend time they don't have becoming intimately familiar with anything. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.