> White Wolf are suing Sony for plagiarising the World of Darkness in
> the movie Underworld. Here's a link to the lawsuit which mentions the
> jyhad. Note that this is a spoiler.
White Wolf : GO, GO , GO !!!
If the movie-makers don't have any ideas, at least let them pay for other
people's.
And when you see what they did with some great comics, like From Hell or The
League of Gentlement Extraordinaire...
Orpheus
in article 1ln2mv42hoeg7kdf9...@4ax.com, Andrew S. Davidson at
a...@csi.com wrote on 9/12/03 2:10 AM:
> And here is a cartoon which summarises the issue:
>
> http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-09-08&res=l
A satire, yes. A summary, no.
Dan
Andrew S. Davidson expounded:
[ quoted text not captured ]
Haven't checked these urls (don't want spoilers) but someone mentioned
it before.
It seems to me that there really isn't much in the WoD that WW can claim
copyright on -most of it had already been invented by others. Even most
of the names are derivative. (eg -"Celerity" just means speed)
Soo..
What do WW claim is actually theirs and how precisely would you have to
copy it to be liable?
I don't know what details the film has but I certainly didn't see
anything in the trailer that looked specific enough to me. It certainly
did look like it might be WW related but you just had to look at the
credits to see that is wasn't -it would have said quite clearly if it
was WW so it obviously wasn't. Are WW trying to get a monopoly on the
whole theme?
Timlagor wrote:
> It seems to me that there really isn't much in the WoD that WW can claim
> copyright on -most of it had already been invented by others. Even most
> of the names are derivative. (eg -"Celerity" just means speed)
>
> Soo..
> What do WW claim is actually theirs and how precisely would you have to
> copy it to be liable?
The people at WW who could answer questions about the lawsuit do not, TTBOMK,
read this group, so questions for them have a better chance of reaching them
if posted on forums that they do read.
Below is a spoiler-free except from a post Mike Tinney (WW President) made
on the WW "Fiction and Game Reviews" forum in the thread entitled
"From WW on Litigation". It may help answer your question.
<BEGIN QUOTE>
[...]
We do feel that the World of Darkness, Vampire:
The Masquerade and Werewolf: The Apocalypse
contain unique expressions of these subjects. When
we read the Underworld screenplay we found what we
believed to be a nearly identical expression of our
unique kinds of Vampires and a nearly identical
expression of our kind of social dynamics between
these two opposed societies. People have pointed to
Wolfman VS Dracula recently. That's fine, but it misses
our point. We're claiming that we created a complex
world that supports advanced social structures of both
Vampire and Werewolf societies. That each of these
creature types have a unique blend of common myths
and new ideas and that Underworld hues too closely to
these same unique blends. Some of our elements
were inspired by folklore, some by more modern
offerings and still others of these elements are wholly
original contributions by our creative staff. It is our
combination of these elements that is unique, and that
expression is protectable, we believe, under copyright
law. We also found a few special game terms, like
Abomination, showing up in both our books and
their screenplay, and we feel very strongly that the
screen writers were exposed to, inspired by and actively
incorporating elements of our IP into their movie.
We feel our case is further strengthened by what we
perceive to be overwhelming similarities between the
Underworld script and Nancy's short story, The Love of
Monsters, which is also set in the World of Darkness.
The movie switches the genders of the characters, but
otherwise we found the sequence of events to be
almost identical between her story and their
screenplay.
[...]
<END QUOTE>
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote in message news:<1ln2mv42hoeg7kdf9...@4ax.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
I read the complaint...
The main point is, that sony is using the White-wolf's 'versions' of
vampires and werewolfs... Not the whole vampire/werewolf idea...
With books, card games, a computer game, etc... They created a
fictious world... The same world that "Underworld" seems to be based
in...
And I'm annoyed... how did white wolf get to see the movie? GRRR~~~~
PS... I just wanna see the GD movie... =/ She looks hot... Can't
argue with skin tight black leather =D~~~~
Hmm, I'm really am a pig... It's good to know...
[ quoted text not captured ]
from your second link :
"Judge Forrester also outlined his policy on fairness in his courtroom and
cautioned Sony Pictures against using "big business" delay tactics."
still one of the best card in the game =)
Meth Forrester : "no, don't, don't play delaying tactics, I've got a DI in
hand !"
Nagaraja
LSJ expounded:
> <BEGIN QUOTE>
Thank. That helped a bit. I suppose I'm going to have to watch the film
to find out what I really think ;)
To answer the one instance mentioned.
"Abomination" is hardly a previously unused name and though the precise
definition may have first been coined by WW it's going to be in the top
ten suggestions from any group of people looking for a name for a
vampirised werewolf.
If Sony can credibly claim (as I think someone menitoned somewhere) that
the storyline is inspired by Romeo and Juliet then WW can hardly claim
copyright on the plot either..
I'll shut up now.
Hope I get to see the film though.
PS. I worked out TTBOMK all my myself! ;D
Timlagor wrote:
>
> LSJ expounded:
> > <BEGIN QUOTE>
>
> Thank. That helped a bit. I suppose I'm going to have to watch the film
> to find out what I really think ;)
>
> To answer the one instance mentioned.
> "Abomination" is hardly a previously unused name and though the precise
> definition may have first been coined by WW it's going to be in the top
> ten suggestions from any group of people looking for a name for a
> vampirised werewolf.
By itself, it could be coincidental. But there's more than a few other
terms that would also come to mind so one wouldn't really expect them to
choose the exact same word.
Anyway, stacked with enough other "coincidences" and I'd think they could
make a pretty good case. (I don't know, though. I haven't seen the movie
myself.)
> If Sony can credibly claim (as I think someone menitoned somewhere) that
> the storyline is inspired by Romeo and Juliet then WW can hardly claim
> copyright on the plot either..
It didn't sound as if they're claiming a copyright on the plot. It
seemed like that backstory was what was being questioned.
Fred
> > To answer the one instance mentioned.
> > "Abomination" is hardly a previously unused name and though the precise
> > definition may have first been coined by WW it's going to be in the top
> > ten suggestions from any group of people looking for a name for a
> > vampirised werewolf.
>
> By itself, it could be coincidental. But there's more than a few other
> terms that would also come to mind so one wouldn't really expect them to
> choose the exact same word.
>
> Anyway, stacked with enough other "coincidences" and I'd think they could
> make a pretty good case. (I don't know, though. I haven't seen the movie
> myself.)
When you see the stories Hollywood buys and what they end up with (often :
nothing to do with the original story), so many things in common cannot be
coindential. Do you know that Michael Jackson nearly starred in The Crow ?
Did you see what the recent Novel or Comics adaptations became ? From the
list of WW complaints, objectively :
- sure, Ann Rice and her predecessors invented many concepts, but WW named
them, and the same terms are coined in the movie
- the story looks like an imitation of Nancy A. Collins (a very fine writer
in my book) 's novel, and that is copyright infrigement if I know anything
about it
- all the themes (Romeo and Juliet, vampires, werewolves, Maffiosi
Necromancers ruling the world... ;) already have been exploited ; but the
combination of some themes and some terms and some twists of the initial
theme, all these make new stories, and variations on the eternal stories
(there really are only 10 stories in the world, and we know them by heart
since Greek antiquity). Too many things stacked up make for a serious case,
and I hope / believe that WW will have a chance to win ; even if we all know
that being able to pay very serious lawyers makes a big difference towards
"justice" in a court of law.
Yours,
Orpheus (and WW owes me a whole bunch of money for stealing my name, and the
theme of me coming back from the dead and necromancing and all, for its new
game ; come on, you people, at least send me a t-shirt !!!). ;-)
>
> The people at WW who could answer questions about the lawsuit do not,
TTBOMK,
> read this group, so questions for them have a better chance of reaching
them
> if posted on forums that they do read.
Well, ok, one of us does, but I can't comment beyond what we post as press
releases, so I have to content myself with lurking on this particular
thread.
Steve
White Wolf has a Video Game coming out called Bloodlines using Valve's Half
Life Engine..
Sony has a Video Game coming out called Bloodline using Valve's Half Life
Engine..
One thing I think we all agree on is that the ideas are awesome, I don't
think anyone thought a movie was a bad idea, but the credit & profits are
due.
While White Wolf may be happy with what they won in court, I am saddened, I
am sure the 10 million dollar bond has something to due with Sony's Worth,
which means I could never do anything if someone stole my writings,
David
Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.19cc346f8...@news.freeserve.com>...
> LSJ expounded:> If Sony can credibly claim (as I think someone menitoned somewhere) that
> the storyline is inspired by Romeo and Juliet then WW can hardly claim
> copyright on the plot either..
If you were being sued for copyright infringement, wouldn't you claim
you were inspired by anything in the public domain to obfuscate (!)
any other influential ideas?
Howdy,
> White Wolf are suing Sony for plagiarising the World of Darkness in
> the movie Underworld. Here's a link to the lawsuit which mentions the
> jyhad.
Good for them!
I saw the trailer for Underworld a couple weeks ago, and said, "What
the hell? This looks like a total rip-off... Or are they going to
give credit to White Wolf?" It really looked that derivative. I
can't see how it could be coincidental. And I'm not even familiar
with the novel in question; the atmospherics, the groups, even the
name of the Werewolves (it sounded like 'Lichen' - awfully similar to
'Lupine') all made me think it must be some sort of cheap knockoff.
Howzabout a little tit for tat:
Soomi Corp.
Master: Unique Location
Put this card in play. During your Master phase you may name any
other Unique Location in play; this card then contests that Location
as if it were the same card.
Have fun stormin' the castle,
Alex
"Metropolis" <do...@umich.edu> wrote in message
news:guv8b.2565$H91....@news.itd.umich.edu...
> While White Wolf may be happy with what they won in court
Well, TBH I would have thought that their best strategy from a purely
business point of view would be to get Sony to concede advertising or
publicity so that Underworld ends up being a point of entry into the V:tM
and WoD products/brands. Or better yet, get Sony to take on a 'proper' WoD
script for a feature movie or a TV series pilot.
>I am saddened, I
> am sure the 10 million dollar bond has something to due with Sony's Worth,
> which means I could never do anything if someone stole my writings,
I think it also depends on the strength of the case. To prove
black-and-white plagiarism you'd need to see narrative or dialogue which is
identical to the original source. The argument here is a little more
tricky - there's no denying the similarity in the genres and themes
involved, but did Sony consciously use the WoD as a source of inspiration,
or have they in fact up to now been unaware of White Wolf's product lines?
Regards,
Mike
Although I've not read the short story that WW is claiming is the basis for the
film, but from the legal complaint document (I forget the official name of such
a file), it appears that similarity to the story is all WW have.
The other 17 comparissons are far too weak to try and base complaints on
really.
-------------------------
Cambridge by Night.
http://www.geocities.com/eryx_uk/Cambridge_by_night.html
freds64_at_...@removethis.com writes:
>It didn't sound as if they're claiming a copyright on the plot. It
>seemed like that backstory was what was being questioned.
Assuming one even agrees with the idea of IP, if the feds
are consistent on this I don't think WW has a chance. It's not
like you can't write scifi with brave rebels rescuing princesses
from evil empire, or fantasy with daring men seeking the aid
of wise bow-using elves with the assistance of short guys
who don't wear shoes, or bodice-rippers with heroines becoming
domestic assistants to broody handsome heirs on old plantations.
There's not a genre of "B" fiction about without constant
knockoff of setting and mood. Just so long as you don't
borrow proper names or call something "hobbits".
Of course US enforcement of IP has been utterly insane for
over 15 years, with patents granted to *all* uses of human
stem cells (that's right: your blood violates US patents) and
to XOR graphics techniques (in the 90's!!!). So who knows.
And there is that successful suit against Taco Bell for the
Chihuahua campaign, which IMO was less of a ripoff than this
is.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
CurtAdams <curt...@aol.com> wrote:
> Of course US enforcement of IP has been utterly insane for
> over 15 years, with patents granted to *all* uses of human
> stem cells (that's right: your blood violates US patents) and
> to XOR graphics techniques (in the 90's!!!). So who knows.
> And there is that successful suit against Taco Bell for the
> Chihuahua campaign, which IMO was less of a ripoff than this
> is.
So, you think that when you and your friend approach an international
fast-food restaurant with an idea for an advertising campaign, and then that
international fast-food restaurant uses your idea for an advertising
campaign without paying you, that's OK?
Interesting definition of "less of a ripoff". :)
> Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
> "It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA)
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Kevin M writes:
>> And there is that successful suit against Taco Bell for the
>> Chihuahua campaign, which IMO was less of a ripoff than this
>> is.>So, you think that when you and your friend approach an international
>fast-food restaurant with an idea for an advertising campaign, and then that
>international fast-food restaurant uses your idea for an advertising
>campaign without paying you, that's OK?
Their proposal was for an animated (not live-action) chihuahua
with a very different personality. Just using the same dog
breed isn't a ripoff - e.g. WW didn't ripoff Stoker; they made
meaningful alterations. OTOH the Sony movie is so like WoD
I wasn't sure it was not WoD until the trailer was almost over.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.19cc346f8...@news.freeserve.com>...
> To answer the one instance mentioned.
> "Abomination" is hardly a previously unused name and though the precise
> definition may have first been coined by WW it's going to be in the top
> ten suggestions from any group of people looking for a name for a
> vampirised werewolf.
"Abomination" is unique. Card text.
Also, BTW, Sony has been sending sneak preview tickets for Underworld
to gaming stores.(at least in RI) I doubt that this helps WW's legal
argument but it certainly is suspicious.
-Matt
On 12 Sep 2003 23:16:50 -0700, Alex Broadhead wrote:
>...even the>name of the Werewolves (it sounded like 'Lichen' - awfully similar to
>'Lupine') all made me think it must be some sort of cheap knockoff.
"Lupine" is a standard English word which means wolf-like. The
Underworld word is "Lycan" which is probably from "lycanthrope" which
is another English word. The WW root is Latin: lupus=wolf. The Sony
root is Greek: lykos=wolf.
Andrew
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:44:02 -0400, Metropolis wrote:
>While White Wolf may be happy with what they won in court, I am saddened, I
>am sure the 10 million dollar bond has something to due with Sony's Worth,
>which means I could never do anything if someone stole my writings,
The $10M bond appears to be the price of a temporary restraining
order, preventing Sony from releasing the movie and associated
merchandise. If Sony were to delay the release of the movie then this
would disrupt their marketing plan and this would be expensive. If
WW's suit failed, then Sony could counter-sue for damages but this
wouldn't do much good if WW had no money. So, WW don't get to stop
the movie until the full case is heard and decided. That seems
reasonable and doesn't really affect WW's prospects - the more
successful the movie is, the more damages they can claim.
I see that the movie opens on Sept 19 in the UK too. A simultaneous
world release used to be the sign of a stinker but I'll be going to
see this anyway. It can't be a worse disappointment than Terminator 3
or Matrix 2.
Andrew
"Mongrel Matt Hirsch" <mon...@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:683c6519.0309...@posting.google.com...
> "Abomination" is unique. Card text.
I now have this hilarious image of a lawyer for white wolf
shouting "Card Text" and waving pages of errata in front of a judge
stuck in my head.
Thanks =)
> Also, BTW, Sony has been sending sneak preview tickets for Underworld
> to gaming stores.(at least in RI) I doubt that this helps WW's legal
> argument but it certainly is suspicious.
Around here any sci/fi, horror, fantasy movie that distibutes free passes
usually sends some to to bigger gaming stores for distribution so
I don't think its all that suspicious.
Most theatres are doing their screenings for press etc in the middle of
this week. Wonder if there will be any more developments from
the lawsuit prior to release.
-JTP
DISCLAIMER: I hate it as much as everyone else when someone tries to
be an armchair lawyer, but since I've got a passing familiarity with
the subject, here's my take. I AM NOT A LAWYER (IANL)!!!
Okay, in order to succeed on a claim of copyright infringement, WW
needs to show the following: (1) they own a valid copyright in a work,
and (2) that the allegedly infringing work was copied from the
copyrighted work rather than produced independently.
1. Is fairly easy, WW clearly holds valid copyrights over their
works.
2. Is more complicated. WW needs to show: (A) that the allegedly
infringing work was copied from the copyrighted work rather than
produced independently, and (B) that such copying took place to such
an extent as to be illegal.
A. Copying can be shown by: (i) showing that the alleged infringer
had access to the copyrighted work, and (ii) showing that the
allegedly infringing work and the copyrighted work are "substantially
similar".
Within A, the more you can show they had access, the less similar it
needs to be. Less access proven = more substantial similarities
needed. "Substantially similar" means "an ordinary reasonable
observer would recognize it as having been taken from the copyrighted
work," or "the value of the original is sensibly diminished or the
labors of the author are appropriated to an injurious extent."
Substantial similarity can also be proven by comparing individual
features of the works (plot, theme, dialogue, mood, setting, pace,
characters, and sequence of events).
Assuming that WW proves all that, the court will presume the work is
copied and infringing. This presumption can then be rebutted by Sony
showing evidence of independent creation.
Okay, lesson over. Hope that gives some structure to the general
feeling of "being a ripoff"
> Howzabout a little tit for tat:
As for my own little kick... I'd like to see a Time of Judgment news
story about Black Dog suing Pentex's media subsidiary... =)
colind...@aol.com (Colin Goodman) wrote in message news:<20030914170832...@mb-m13.aol.com>...
> Although I've not read the short story that WW is claiming is the basis for the
> film, but from the legal complaint document (I forget the official name of such
> a file), it appears that similarity to the story is all WW have.
>
> The other 17 comparissons are far too weak to try and base complaints on
> really.
I scanned the compaints. I am at a loss for the specifics, having not
read the short story or seen the movie. The general arguements were
individually groundless. People who have never heard of white wolf
(a.k.a. the magistrate) are familiar with vampires, werewolves,
gothic, and ill-fated lovers. As a preponderance of suggestive
evidence, this complaints hold more validity.
Whatever. I am not a lawyer or rich enough to sue or be sued by
anyone. I think both sides may believe they are more creative than
they really are.
Jeff Haar <kit3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Whatever. I am not a lawyer or rich enough to sue or be sued by
> anyone.
The RIAA sued a 12-year-old girl for file sharing, so don't think that your
net worth makes any difference to people that wish to sue you. :)
[ quoted text not captured ]
Howdy,
> >...even the
> >name of the Werewolves (it sounded like 'Lichen' - awfully similar to
> >'Lupine') all made me think it must be some sort of cheap knockoff.
>
> "Lupine" is a standard English word which means wolf-like. The
> Underworld word is "Lycan" which is probably from "lycanthrope" which
> is another English word. The WW root is Latin: lupus=wolf. The Sony
> root is Greek: lykos=wolf.
Well, 'Lycan' certainly makes more sense than 'Lichen' (The folks over
at Chaosium can breathe easier - no Fungi of Sony...), yes, but that
doesn't change its similarity to 'Lupine'. It was the sound and usage
that struck me; appropriateness doesn't really change that - it's
still either one of many coincidences or not. And if you were
permuting 'Lupine' to avoid using a term straight from the game, you
might well use exactly the etymological trail you trace above to go
from one to the other...
Alex
CurtAdams wrote:
>
> freds64_at_...@removethis.com writes:
>
> >It didn't sound as if they're claiming a copyright on the plot. It
> >seemed like that backstory was what was being questioned.
>
> Assuming one even agrees with the idea of IP, if the feds
> are consistent on this I don't think WW has a chance. It's not
> like you can't write scifi with brave rebels rescuing princesses
> from evil empire, or fantasy with daring men seeking the aid
> of wise bow-using elves with the assistance of short guys
> who don't wear shoes,
I think it all depends. If those short guys who don't wear shoes
live in round holes in hills and eat 7 meals a day...? I don't know.
I guess it all depends on nuances in the law that I'm not familiar with.
I would expect that at *some* point, you'd get too close to someone
else's property. Even if all you're stealing is the background story.
Fred
Fred writes:
>curt...@aol.com writes:>>It's not
>> like you can't write scifi with brave rebels rescuing princesses
>> from evil empire, or fantasy with daring men seeking the aid
>> of wise bow-using elves with the assistance of short guys
>> who don't wear shoes,>I think it all depends. If those short guys who don't wear shoes
>live in round holes in hills and eat 7 meals a day...? I don't know.
IIRC, D&D halflings don't like shoes, eat a lot, are great with slings,
and do often live underground. So you can get really close.
>I guess it all depends on nuances in the law that I'm not familiar with.
>I would expect that at *some* point, you'd get too close to someone
>else's property. Even if all you're stealing is the background story.
I agree there would be a point the Feds would come in. But they're
awful tolerant, and basically have to be, given the nature of B
genres.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:44:23 +0100, Timlagor
<Timlagor...@yahoo.com> scrawled:
>CurtAdams expounded:>> There's not a genre of "B" fiction about without constant>
>What is this mysterious B?
B-grade movies. those that don't win awards, often go straight to
video instead of getting cinematic release, have usually predictable
plots, star actors you haven't heard of, and are generally a lot more
fun than the moralising crap hollywood spits out.
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
Timlagor...@yahoo.com writes:
[ quoted text not captured ]
Pulp fiction, more or less. Boilerplate throwaway
art that's intended to provide easy entertainment
but not be memorable. Used to refer to cheap
movies aka "B-movies" although nowadays that kind
of stuff has moved to TV. A lot of books serve
similar purposes.
[ quoted text not captured ]
salem expounded:
> On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:44:23 +0100, Timlagor
> <Timlagor...@yahoo.com> scrawled:
>
> >CurtAdams expounded:
> >> There's not a genre of "B" fiction about without constant
> >
> >What is this mysterious B?
>
> B-grade movies. those that don't win awards, often go straight to
> video instead of getting cinematic release, have usually predictable
> plots, star actors you haven't heard of, and are generally a lot more
> fun than the moralising crap hollywood spits out.
Thanks. I just never knew where teh B came from.