Before range is chosen ?

There is a card we were arguing about (as usual) but I can't remember which it is ! Anyway the argument was about the wording 'play before range is chosen'. Is this before the 'range choosing' stage is reached or is it before the range is actually chosen/determined? Can it be played after the acting meth. has said 'range normal' (or 'range long') Thanks Ian

ianb...@aol.com (Ian batty) writes: >There is a card we were arguing about (as usual) but I can't remember >which it is ! Anyway the argument was about the wording 'play before >range is chosen'. >Is this before the 'range choosing' stage is reached or is it before the >range is actually chosen/determined? Before it is reached (before any maneuvers are made/declined). >Can it be played after the acting meth. has said 'range normal' (or 'range >long') Not if the acting methuselah asked if the blocker wished to play any cards before range was determined. If the acting methuselah skips ahead and says "I maneuver" or "I'm happy with close range", then the blocker can back things up so that she can play a before-range card. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

In article <5af9hv$9...@redwood.cs.sc.edu>, sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes: >>Is this before the 'range choosing' stage is reached or is it before the >>range is actually chosen/determined? > >Before it is reached (before any maneuvers are made/declined). Hmm - this is not what I had expected !!! Has this always been the case? Ian

[ quoted text not captured ] Yes, as far as I know. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Neurotic: http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | Self-taut person. [ quoted text not captured ]

>>>>Is this before the 'range choosing' stage is reached or is it before the >>>>range is actually chosen/determined? >>>Before it is reached (before any maneuvers are made/declined). >>Hmm - this is not what I had expected !!! Has this always been the case? >Yes, as far as I know. I think the crux of the timing issue here is the legality of playing "Before Range is Determined" Cards as follows, which BTW is the way we have up until presently these cards to be played. 1. Combat Begins 2. Acting Minion passes on range. 3. Reacting Minion Moves to Long Range. (Flash) 4. Acting minion would now like to play a before range is determined card. (Torn Signpost) 5. Acting minion moves back to short with the newly drawn manuver card (Flash) that allows him to utilize the before range is determined card (Torn Signpost) more effectively. 5. Reacting minion gives up and accepts close range. It works similarly for the Reacting minion, that he could play Torn Signpost after the Acting minion has manuvered to long and the reactor could then draw a flash to move back to short and pummell. Similarly we have allowed for the following chain of events: 1. Fred declares an action to Steal the Fragment of the book of Nod from Tom. 2. Tom taps the Fragment of the book of nod drawing two cards. 3. Tom discards down to hand size. 4. Tom plays his newly drawn intercept/wakey/insert cool card here. Or 4. Tom lets Fred have the Fraggy. but it is tapped when Fred gets it. Similar events exist in many instances such as burning the edge to remove a Sabbat Threat counter after a bleed is not blocked. Just wondering on these wonderous timing issues, and whether any of them have actual rulings. Thanks Stu [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <19961230233...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, ianb...@aol.com (Ian batty) wrote: >There is a card we were arguing about (as usual) but I can't remember >which it is ! Anyway the argument was about the wording 'play before >range is chosen'. > >Is this before the 'range choosing' stage is reached or is it before the >range is actually chosen/determined? The former. >Can it be played after the acting meth. has said 'range normal' (or 'range >long') No. Before range is chosen (aka maneuvers played) you have pre-combat phase (directly after blocking). This is where cards 'play before range is chosen' like Zip Gun are played. blocking and entering combat goes like this with A:==acting meth and R:==reacting meth 1. R: blocks successfully 2. A: may play cards applicable directly after being blocked (do such cards actually exist ?) 3. R: play directly after block cards like cat's guidance. [Now we are directly before combat begins] 4. A: Play cards 'before range is chosen'/directly before combat 5. R: same 6. A: maneuver (optional) 7. R: maneuver (optional). If maneuvered repeat from 6. 8. A: announce strike 9. R: announce strike etc. As I write this down I'm contemplating wether TB could be played at 2. thus preventing R from playing Cat's Guidance ? I'd say no but I've erred in the past :-) Michael -- Michael Gerdau email: m.ge...@elmshorn.netsurf.de 2b or not 2b that's ff (or ger...@ifm.uni-hamburg.de) WWW-Homepage http://elmshorn.netsurf.de/~m.gerdau PGP-key available on request or at public keyserver Key fingerprint = 1FA5AEC97D4EF476 E964D42685B60B4E

st...@atl.mindspring.com (Stuart J. Pieloch) writes: >I think the crux of the timing issue here is the legality of playing >"Before Range is Determined" Cards as follows, which BTW is the way we >have up until presently these cards to be played. >1. Combat Begins >2. Acting Minion passes on range. >3. Reacting Minion Moves to Long Range. (Flash) >4. Acting minion would now like to play a before range is determined >card. (Torn Signpost) This is illegal, as far as I know, since range is currently being determined. >Similarly we have allowed for the following chain of events: >1. Fred declares an action to Steal the Fragment of the book of Nod >from Tom. >2. Tom taps the Fragment of the book of nod drawing two cards. >3. Tom discards down to hand size. >4. Tom plays his newly drawn intercept/wakey/insert cool card here. >Or >4. Tom lets Fred have the Fraggy. but it is tapped when Fred gets it. This is legal, since you can tap the Frag at any time. >Similar events exist in many instances such as burning the edge to >remove a Sabbat Threat counter after a bleed is not blocked. This is legal, since you can burn threat counters at any time. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | * - Tribble http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | (-*-) - Darth Tribble in his Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | TIE Fighter

m.ge...@elmshorn.netsurf.de (Michael Gerdau) writes: >blocking and entering combat goes like this with >A:==acting meth and R:==reacting meth >1. R: blocks successfully >2. A: may play cards applicable directly after being blocked > (do such cards actually exist ?) Yes: Freak Drive. >As I write this down I'm contemplating wether TB could be played at 2. thus >preventing R from playing Cat's Guidance ? >I'd say no but I've erred in the past :-) You are correct. TB is an "as combat is entered" card, and results in two more steps in your process (below): >3. R: play directly after block cards like cat's guidance. >[Now we are directly before combat begins] >4. A: Play cards 'before range is chosen'/directly before combat 4. A: Play "as combat is entered" card here (TB) 5. R: Play "as combat is entered" card here (TB) 6. A: Play cards 'before range is chosen' 7. R: Play cards 'before range is chosen' (renumber remaining steps accordingly.) >6. A: maneuver (optional) >7. R: maneuver (optional). If maneuvered repeat from 6. >8. A: announce strike >9. R: announce strike >etc. >Michael >-- > Michael Gerdau email: m.ge...@elmshorn.netsurf.de > 2b or not 2b that's ff (or ger...@ifm.uni-hamburg.de) > WWW-Homepage http://elmshorn.netsurf.de/~m.gerdau > PGP-key available on request or at public keyserver > Key fingerprint = 1FA5AEC97D4EF476 E964D42685B60B4E [ quoted text not captured ]

Stuart J. Pieloch (st...@atl.mindspring.com) wrote: > >>>>Is this before the 'range choosing' stage is reached or is it before the > >>>>range is actually chosen/determined? > >>>Before it is reached (before any maneuvers are made/declined). > >>Hmm - this is not what I had expected !!! Has this always been the case? > >Yes, as far as I know. > > I think the crux of the timing issue here is the legality of playing > "Before Range is Determined" Cards as follows, which BTW is the way we > have up until presently these cards to be played. > > 1. Combat Begins > 2. Acting Minion passes on range. > 3. Reacting Minion Moves to Long Range. (Flash) > 4. Acting minion would now like to play a before range is determined > card. (Torn Signpost) > 5. Acting minion moves back to short with the newly drawn manuver card > (Flash) that allows him to utilize the before range is determined card > (Torn Signpost) more effectively. > 5. Reacting minion gives up and accepts close range. > As far as I'm aware, this is doubly illegal: 1). Torn signpost must be played before an _attempt_ to set range is determined. 2). The acting minion cannot cancel his own maneveur. -Mark Langsdorf http://www.engr.trinity.edu/~mlangsdo/RPGs/Jyhad/index.html

>>1. Combat Begins >>2. Acting Minion passes on range. >>3. Reacting Minion Moves to Long Range. (Flash) >>4. Acting minion would now like to play a before range is determined >>card. (Torn Signpost) >This is illegal, as far as I know, since range is currently being >determined. Choosing to hash this one out in a public forum for the benefit of all players. "Range is currently being determined" "Play before range is determined" The entirety of my argument lies in the fact that range is not determined until AFTER both players have agreed on the range (please note that I believe a manuver to long by either Meth to be an inherent acceptance of long range from that point on in this round of combat) Since range is not determined at the point that the card would be played, the card's restriction seems to me to not be in effect. JustMHO. Stu

st...@atl.mindspring.com (Stuart J. Pieloch) writes: [ quoted text not captured ] Well sure. But, how would you word an effect that restricts a card to functioning as I believe? "Play before the acting minion maneuvers or declines to maneuver". Now, would the people who gave us Rotschreck really come up with such a wording? :-) Conversely, I could produce an effect which functions as you say by using the wording: "Play before strikes are chosen". (And this would likely be the way the cards were worded if the designers intended for them to work this way). The wording "before range is determined" is derived from the main phases of a round of combat (before TB): 1. Determine Range 2. Choose Strikes 3. Resolve Strikes (Damage Resolution) 4. Press "Play before range is determined" means before step 1. (All of the above is IMHO, of course). [ quoted text not captured ]

>Well sure. But, how would you word an effect that restricts a card >to functioning as I believe? >"Play before the acting minion maneuvers or declines to maneuver". Play at the beginning of a round Play at the beginning of the first round of combat Played only as combat is entered Play before range determination begins Play before manuvers are made. >Now, would the people who gave us Rotschreck really come up with >such a wording? :-) >Conversely, I could produce an effect which functions as you say by >using the wording: "Play before strikes are chosen". (And this would >likely be the way the cards were worded if the designers intended for >them to work this way). Which could be used before strike declaration but after range determination which is an entirely different point in the combat, most of the before range is determined cards involve pumping up either close range damage or long range damage but not both. >The wording "before range is determined" is derived from the main >phases of a round of combat (before TB): >1. Determine Range >2. Choose Strikes >3. Resolve Strikes (Damage Resolution) >4. Press >"Play before range is determined" means before step 1. >(All of the above is IMHO, of course). But your humble opinion is holy writ save for someone with a @wotc.com address - and I like this fact, I just wanted to express how we have been playing it and see if there was a problem with our interpritation. It sees to me that there are only minor differences and that this is one occasion where I have no problem altering our local gaming groups rulings to fall into line with the general populace of net-enlightened Jyhad players. >L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | * - Tribble Thanks Scott, And I am happy that you haven't been able to find any patantly erroneous arguments in my idea. But I will conform as we are all individuals trying to make the Rulesmongers life less annoyingly difficult. Stu

I think the before range is determined cards must be played before maneuvers are declared. One group that I know of even asks, as a matter of course, are there any pre-range effects? You are right in that the phrase "range is determined" could refer to a completed state, or the process of selecting that state. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- pheersum inhabits the mortal shell of eric schultheis. one channels mailto://phee...@netwizards.net. nature says,"go ahead, have as many babies as you want. something will eat them." ---------------------------------------------------------------------

You know, I was wondering if it might be worthwhile to put an "official" (or as official as we can get) revision to the rules up on the web somewhere. I'm not saying a huge archive of eratta, but both editions of the rules frankly suck, and it would be nice to have a place to point people who have basic rules questions when the rulebook(s) are ambiguous. Thoughts? James