hand strikes?

Under an Immortal Grapple are any of these playable? The Khabar: Honor [AH] Cardtype: Combat Clan: Assamite Strike: <strength+3> damage. Only usable if this Assamite has been chosen for a Contract on the opposing minion. Meat Cleaver [Sabbat, SW] Cardtype: Equipment Cost: 1 pool Melee Weapon. Strength+1 damage each strike (and other melee weapons like Garrote) Shadow Strike [SW] Cardtype: Combat Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Obtenebration Strike: strength ranged damage, with an optional maneuver. (S) As above, with an optional press. <<<<<<<<< (at close range) Thanks in advance, Jay

[ quoted text not captured ] The Khabar: Honor is, since it is a hand strike. Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon, offensive (non-dodge, non-S:CE) strike that deals damage based on the stiking minion's strength. Meat Cleaver is a weapon, so doen't qualify. Shadow Strike is ranged, so doesn't qualify (even at close range). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"Jay Kristoff" <j...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message news:AY5Y6.56656$V5.62...@typhoon.columbus.rr.com... > Under an Immortal Grapple are any of these playable? From the online rulings: "Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based on the striking minion's strength, or any minion's non-ranged damage-dealing innate strike. [LSJ 19970224]" LSJ has recently ruled that Stutter-Step is not a hand strike, despite conforming to this definition, because it is a dodge, but that is the only exception to this ruling AFAIK. Therefore, since IG only allows hand strikes: > The Khabar: Honor [AH] > Cardtype: Combat > Clan: Assamite > Strike: <strength+3> damage. Only usable if this Assamite has been chosen > for a Contract on the opposing minion. Yes, it's non-ranged strength-based damage, and not from a melee weapon. > Meat Cleaver [Sabbat, SW] > Cardtype: Equipment > Cost: 1 pool > Melee Weapon. Strength+1 damage each strike (and other melee weapons like > Garrote) No. Weapon strikes are never hand strikes. > Shadow Strike [SW] > Cardtype: Combat > Cost: 1 blood > Discipline: Obtenebration > Strike: strength ranged damage, with an optional maneuver. (S) As above, > with an optional press. <<<<<<<<< (at close range) No. It's still a ranged strike, even if used at close range. Flux

"Jay Kristoff" <j...@columbus.rr.com> a écrit dans le message news: AY5Y6.56656$V5.62...@typhoon.columbus.rr.com... > Under an Immortal Grapple are any of these playable? you can only do hand strike under immortal grapple. So.... > The Khabar: Honor [AH] > Cardtype: Combat > Clan: Assamite > Strike: <strength+3> damage. Only usable if this Assamite has been chosen > for a Contract on the opposing minion. Yes, this is a hand strike. You strike with your strength + a bonus. > Meat Cleaver [Sabbat, SW] > Cardtype: Equipment > Cost: 1 pool > Melee Weapon. Strength+1 damage each strike (and other melee weapons like > Garrote) No, it's not a hand strike. If you strike with meat cleaver, you are striking with a weapon, even if the amount of damage is influenced by your strength. It is illegal to strike with meat cleaver under immortal grapple. > > Shadow Strike [SW] > Cardtype: Combat > Cost: 1 blood > Discipline: Obtenebration > Strike: strength ranged damage, with an optional maneuver. (S) As above, > with an optional press. <<<<<<<<< (at close range) It's a strike that does ranged damage, and the amount of damage is modified by your strength. However it is still not a hand strike. you cannot play that under immortal grapple. -And if you play it before immortal grapple shows up, your shadow strike has no effect. > > Thanks in advance, > Jay >

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> > > Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon, offensive (non-dodge, non-S:CE) strike > that deals damage based on the stiking minion's strength. > > Meat Cleaver is a weapon, so doen't qualify. > Shadow Strike is ranged, so doesn't qualify (even at close range). Hum, i think this nice definition of "hand strike" is again in danger : Blood of the cobra permits an assamite to do hand strikes like dagon's call at long range... But they are still hand strikes then ! Thetmes actually delivers 2 Agg when playing dagon call's at long range =) please clarify ! thanks reyda

[ quoted text not captured ] No. A hand strike at long range is not a hand strike any more. Using Dagon's Call ("Strike: make a hand strike (strength damage)") with Blood of the Cobra ("use that strike as if it were ranged") results in "Strike: strength ranged damage". -- LSJ

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:9gqt6p$2tu$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk... > "Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote: > > > >"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> > >> > >> Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon, offensive (non-dodge, non-S:CE) > >strike > >> that deals damage based on the stiking minion's strength. > >> > >Hum, i think this nice definition of "hand strike" is again in danger : > >Blood of the cobra permits an assamite to do hand strikes like dagon's call > >at long range... But they are still hand strikes then ! Thetmes actually > >delivers 2 Agg when playing dagon call's at long range =) > >please clarify ! > > No. A hand strike at long range is not a hand strike any more. Using > Dagon's Call ("Strike: make a hand strike (strength damage)") with > Blood of the Cobra ("use that strike as if it were ranged") results > in "Strike: strength ranged damage". So hand damage modifiers should not apply anymore, right? Would a melee weapon strike (with Scorpion's Touch+BotC) still have the melee weapon's characteristics (+X damage, agg. damage, etc)? I think yes, but then again, why should it be different from hand damage modifiers? Flux

"Flux" <fl...@netc.pt> wrote: >"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message >news:9gqt6p$2tu$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk... >> No. A hand strike at long range is not a hand strike any more. Using >> Dagon's Call ("Strike: make a hand strike (strength damage)") with >> Blood of the Cobra ("use that strike as if it were ranged") results >> in "Strike: strength ranged damage". > >So hand damage modifiers should not apply anymore, right? Correct, although strength modifiers would. >Would a melee weapon strike (with Scorpion's Touch+BotC) still have the >melee weapon's characteristics (+X damage, agg. damage, etc)? I think yes, >but then again, why should it be different from hand damage modifiers? Getting odd here, eh? It looks like it may be better to alter my original ruling above: Adding "ranged" to a strike such as Dagon's Call or Scorpion's Touch (which say "make a X strike") results in "Strike: ranged. Make an X strike" without actually changing the nature of the X strike. The other effects of the Dagon's Call or Scorpion's Touch still hold, however. BotC+Dagon's Call results in the unpreventable press-step damage, but the hand strike is ineffectual (does no damage) at long range. BotC+Scorpion's Touch results in the -1 strength effect but, if the range is long, the melee weapon strike / hand strike part is ineffective. I'll put this on the RT list for review. -- LSJ

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> > Adding "ranged" to a strike such as Dagon's Call or Scorpion's Touch > (which say "make a X strike") results in "Strike: ranged. Make an X strike" > without actually changing the nature of the X strike. The other effects > of the Dagon's Call or Scorpion's Touch still hold, however. > > BotC+Dagon's Call results in the unpreventable press-step damage, but the > hand strike is ineffectual (does no damage) at long range. > BotC+Scorpion's Touch results in the -1 strength effect but, if the range is > long, the melee weapon strike / hand strike part is ineffective. > > I'll put this on the RT list for review. Hum... Maybe there are better options for this new ruling ? it makes Blood of cobra, a nice rare card, instant wallpaper. why not just treat it as a normal ranged strike, and apply damage from weapon/modifying effects and all as if range were close for the combattant using Blood of cobra ? This could lead to cornercase situations, but we players just want to play BOtC in an effective way, without wallpaperizing a card which is already difficult to use. > -- > LSJ

"Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote in message news:9gr129$mve$1...@neon.noos.net... > Hum... Maybe there are better options for this new ruling ? it makes Blood > of cobra, a nice rare card, instant wallpaper. why not just treat it as a > normal ranged strike, and apply damage from weapon/modifying effects and all > as if range were close for the combattant using Blood of cobra ? This could > lead to cornercase situations, but we players just want to play BOtC in an > effective way, without wallpaperizing a card which is already difficult to > use. I agree. I'd rather have it inherit all of the base strike's properties and make them ranged. Since they'd be ranged, they would no longer be hand or melee weapon strikes (assuming melee weapon strikes can't be ranged - new ruling? :-) ), but they'd have all the strike's former properties otherwise. Seems simpler and more intuitive, it's the way most newbies would assume it to work. (I typed a nice OT rant here about the high blood cost of Quietus cards, but my PC decided to reboot whithout consulting me first due to the heat - can't blame it, it's probably over 30 ºC here now at 22 pm - and I can't bother myself to type it all again) Flux

[ quoted text not captured ] Remember that LSJ is, in general, a strict Constitutionalist (though that's an American colloquialism). Meaning, he interprets as strictly to the rules as possible, not for "what seems best for the game." It's a good tack to take when you know you're going to have to keep making rulings, and it minimizes the amount of times he has to reverse decisions from new complications. (Though, I've seen LSJ put up reversals more in the past week than I've seen or heard of in all his tenure. =) -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta

> (I typed a nice OT rant here about the high blood cost of Quietus cards, but > my PC decided to reboot whithout consulting me first due to the heat - can't > blame it, it's probably over 30 ºC here now at 22 pm - and I can't bother > myself to type it all again) Succulent Vitae is your friend. =) And there's always the Path, and just about *nobody* is going after the Path when you've got an Assamite with a Sniper Rifle ready to defend it. Actually, with Sniper Rifle, Guard Duty, and all the newly expanded Auspex on the Assamites, it's almost worth making a "come and get it" Assamite deck, with the Rack, Smiling Jack, the Powerbases, etc, since they'd love for you to play your strikes first. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Pat Ricochet" <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message news:B7568F4A.4B40%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu... [ quoted text not captured ] Sure but that's precisely the problem: without the Path/Succulent Vitae (nice, but not as good as Inner Essence), many Quietus cards are not worth playing at inf, and often even at SUP. Until now all Assamites had QUI (or none at all), but a lot of the new vampires have qui, and many cards are not worth the blood they cost when played at inf (Thin Blood/Vascular Explosion, even Dagon's Call ain't that good when you're paying for it - if no other cards are played, you pay one blood and take one damage, opposing minion takes two damage) I played a game yesterday with an Assamite+AUS deck. Not that effective, just trying out the new cards. It completelly fell apart when I failed to put a Path in play (due to 2 Sudden Reversals). Not the first time that happened to me, but I hoped the new cards would solve this problem, not agravate it. :-( Flux

The only thing that never made much sense is it's soooo hard to not think of Bang Nakh as being applicable to a hand strike. It's a Glove with spikes for heaven's sake.. As far as it goes, I'd always thought that hand strikes should also include Melee Weapon strikes. Yep, Chain Saws, Bastard Swords, etc.. Certainly would hear less griping that First Strike is useless. Though the idea of the Muddled Vampire Hunter with a Sengir Dagger gets scary.. Bernie B.

It's the actual weapon doing damage, not the user's barehands. Though it gives the appearance of punching, that's not all hand damage is. Hand damage could be considered a mix of brawling,chokes, kicks or even a set of claws. In these cases, a pair of Bagh Nakh wouldn't do squat. Muddled Vampire only got scary until they ruled he has 4 strength and that the dagger does strength damage. Old school muddled sucked when you gave him the dagger. Vince "BernieTime" <berni...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20010710023018...@ng-cu1.aol.com... [ quoted text not captured ]

Sorry man, I know where you're going, but we'll have to agree to disagree. If you've ever taken a hit on the chin, or been in a wrestling match (mud wrestling doesn't count) wearing a pair of cestus (or Bang Nakh) would definitely contribute to damage done. If a dog were to attack me on the street and I were armed with a knife, after shoving one fist down it's throat and ripping it open with my knife in the other there would probably be a difference in opinion as to how effective the knife is. Sure. I'd have a mangled hand, but there would also be a dead dog. -- Bernie [ quoted text not captured ]

>Sorry man, > >I know where you're going, but we'll have to agree to disagree. >If you've ever taken a hit on the chin, or been in a wrestling match >(mud wrestling doesn't count) wearing a pair of cestus (or Bang >Nakh) would definitely contribute to damage done. > >If a dog were to attack me on the street and I were armed >with a knife, after shoving one fist down it's throat and ripping >it open with my knife in the other there would probably be >a difference in opinion as to how effective the knife is. > >Sure. I'd have a mangled hand, but there would also be a dead >dog. Um...so maybe that's why card games like Jyhad/VTES are designed by gamers, developers, and strategists as opposed to knife-wielding, dog-slayin', wrestlers? ;) Halcyan 2