card limits

do most people out there play with a card limit or do you play with 20 majesty? how much is too much??

Michelle Strinja a écrit : > do most people out there play with a card limit or do you play with 20 > majesty? how much is too much?? In my group, we do not play with card limit. "too much" is when you get your hand full of majesty, thus limiting your other possibilities. Whitout some diversity in your hand, you get your strategies to fail because some cards are always missing. Also, we play with a 90 card limit in a deck, as per the VEKN tournament rules. Jean Francois Caron VEKN Prince of Jonquiere

Two words... Immortal Grapple Thomas Kuster V:EKN Prince of Caledon "Of Man's first disobedience, and the fruit Of that forbidden tree whose mortal taste Brought death into the world, and all our woe." John Milton, Paradise Lost. Book i. Line 1. In article <39296426...@sk.sympatico.ca>, Michelle Strinja <michelle...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote: > do most people out there play with a card limit or do you play with 20 > majesty? how much is too much?? > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <39296426...@sk.sympatico.ca>, Michelle Strinja <michelle...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote: > do most people out there play with a card limit or do you play with 20 > majesty? how much is too much?? > > I am unable to speak for anyone other than the people within my group. Within the Ramstein, Germany group, we play NCL and max 90 card deck size. As was pointed out in a previous message, you can tell when you have too many of any card when that is all you have in your hand. (unless that is what you are looking for... case in point => a Cryptic Mission deck with 5 to 6 low capacity Tremere out ready to cause trouble with 5 to 6 Cryptic Missions on either their prey or predator's minions.) Michael Eichler Prince of Ramstein -- Worry comes from the belief you are powerless. (So get in there and kick some butt!) [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <39296426...@sk.sympatico.ca>, Michelle Strinja <michelle...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote: > do most people out there play with a card limit No. Some benighted souls do, however - a sincere but deluded minority, whom the rest of us gently and tolerantly try to guide back into the True Path. Unless we are Matthew Green, when we froth, fulminate and curse them back into the true path, or more probably ignore them altogether. Jyhad/VTES was designed to work with no card limits, and the design is strong. Some of the most interesting deck types actually don't work at all with card limits - Setite Corruption being the easiest to play and cheapest to make, but other examples include IG rush and the Betrayer deck. or do you play with 20 > majesty? No. About 14-16 majesties is right for a presence deck in most people's opinion. Me, i tend to go for 5 or so and a load of Fake outs and dodges and Changes of target plus 1-2 deer rifles. As peter bakija pointed out in another thread, if you are scared of combat decks you only need to bugger up 1-2 of their rushes to spike their guns. Majesty is NOT the best way to achieve this, because it is totally hosed by IG rush - diversity is better. how much is too much?? > There's no complete or consensual answer to this question, but i'll offer my opinion. If you have more than about 10 of any card in your deck then you are probably making rather a focussed deck. This isn't always a bad thing, but sometimes it WILL be a bad thing, because every deck type in VTES has a counter, and if you come up against that counter with your very focussed deck, well, you will spend rather a boring 40 or so minutes getting your pink little arse kicked good and proper. BTW if you personally really REALLY get off on card limits then maybe you should play sealed-deck - fun, egalitarian and the card-limit issue just doesn't arise. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 22 May 2000 16:28:45 GMT, Michelle Strinja <michelle...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote: >do most people out there play with a card limit or do you play with 20 >majesty? how much is too much?? > Our group plays with a 4 card limit. Also no max number of cards but a minimum of 12 in our crypts. Very balanced game play.

In article <3929d3ec...@news.netusa1.net>, [ quoted text not captured ] > minimum of 12 in our crypts. Very balanced game play.] Wait a minute! My group has played under 6cl as well as NL. A 4 cl is defenately NOT bananced! Check out Mark Langdorfs articles on 4CL http://www.io.com/~mlangsdo/RPGs/Jyhad/index.html#STRAT Let me on forehand give you an argument: Player 1: classic S&B, Player 2: Ventrue Vote player1 has more stealth and bleed availlable than player 2 has deflections or intercept, or wakes for that matter!! Tim Eijpe -- PROPHECY OF GEHENNA: On The First Day Of Gehenna The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise [ quoted text not captured ]

Michelle Strinja a écrit dans le message <39296426...@sk.sympatico.ca>... >do most people out there play with a card limit or do you play with 20 >majesty? how much is too much?? Our decks were way too boring, that's why we all decided to follow the card limit of 4 cards set by Magic CCG industry. This way the other players had the opportunity to put their hands on the good cards and we all got to add diversity in our decks. A card limit of 4 is reasonable and it is easy to live with it. I suggest you to try it in your area, it works well. We really appreciate that restriction.

ml...@netusa1.net wrote: > Our group plays with a 4 card limit. Also no max number of cards but a > minimum of 12 in our crypts. Very balanced game play. Card limits are bad. Mmmmmkay? Card limits of any kind benefit stealth bleed decks and hamper truly creative deck designs based on rarely used cards. Noal McDonald National Jyhad League -- "What you cannot enforce, do not command." -- Socrates [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8gdujv$cjt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > ml...@netusa1.net wrote: > > Our group plays with a 4 card limit. Also no max number of cards but a > > minimum of 12 in our crypts. Very balanced game play. > > Card limits are bad. Mmmmmkay? DOH!! And I tried to be nice and give the CL-lover some links to info. But, alas, the direct approach might be a better one..as long as it gets the job done. > > Card limits of any kind benefit stealth bleed decks and hamper truly > creative deck designs based on rarely used cards. Yes, indeed. But for any coterie it WILL take time to realize that non-cardlimit does not effectively mean 20+ copies of the same card, but a balanced, unprohibited way of playing the game. I guess some peole forget that NCL means total freedom and that's it. Moreover, most tournament decks tend to have focus AND flexibility. But again it'll take time for people coming out of a period of any CL to adapt this way of deckbuilding. Or am I missing something here? Tim Eijpe PROPHECY OF GEHENNA: On The First Day Of Gehenna The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <msnW4.18201$NS6.2...@news.globetrotter.net>, [ quoted text not captured ] Actually, a NCL will provide more diversity options overall. You can construct decks that both fall under a self imposed 4CL or you can build decks that break the 4CL. Both types of decks can be competitive, however, 4 card limits is more restrictive overall. Especially in a CCG that was designed to do without card limits. Michael Eichler -- Worry comes from the belief you are powerless. (So get in there and kick some butt!) [ quoted text not captured ]

Michelle Strinja schrieb: > > do most people out there play with a card limit or do you play with 20 > majesty? how much is too much?? We play an 3CL for non-unique, 1CL for unniques and Vamps with at least 12 vmps in your crypt. Markus, V:EKN Prince of Mannheim, Germany NP: Illuminate - Der Torweg -- ------------------------------In Goth we trust-------------------------

In article <392A34C1...@she.de>, Markus Reinsch <rei...@she.de> wrote: > We play an 3CL for non-unique, 1CL for unniques and Vamps with at least > 12 vmps in your crypt. > > Markus, V:EKN Prince of Mannheim, Germany > You play 3cl (WTF?) and you're a Prince? /shakes head in despair/ Ahh, the biannual CL/NL debate around again, right on time. I wouldn't miss it for the world. SEE: * The NEW and not-at-all repetitive arguments * CL guys and gals come out of the woodwork * People post up the URLs of the last debate * The size of the thread grow to ludicrous proportions and lets forget, COMING SOON: Diversity vs. 'broken' decks featuring; * the Malkavian SB arguement * the corruption counter-arguement * every other post in the thread by James Coupe * the amazing 35 Crytic mission/ majesty/ bleed modifier/ drawing out the beast decks that are apparently are too powerful (yet curiously have never done well in any tournament ever) For the love of god stop this thread now. matt --- It's aaaaawwll the same, it's only the names that ch-a-ange... [ quoted text not captured ]

usually in paris we play 4CL and some times 6CL a max of 90 cards in the deck , and a min of 12 vampires in the crypt very fun and balanced decks!! i add some words to those of T Kusters: fast reaction, thougth betrayed, Hidden lurker, psyché! Sylvain GOGEL, Primogen, Paris Michelle Strinja <michelle...@sk.sympatico.ca> a écrit dans le message : 39296426...@sk.sympatico.ca... [ quoted text not captured ]

Card limits are bad? FUR SHUR!!!! Immortal Grapple and Hidden Lurker together HOSE Majesty and Catatonic Fear, etc... I also find that even without a four card cap, I only include 4-8, seldom more, of any card. There are exceptions, but how many Toreador players play Majesty instead of add. strikes? (insert sound of crickets chirping)I thought so. Till next time, Thomas Kuster V:EKN Prince of Caledon "I hate when you Steam Tunnel me, you know that?" In article <8gdhvk$q9r$1...@s2.feed.news.oleane.net>, [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8gdh6v$3pr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, legb...@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <39296426...@sk.sympatico.ca>, > Michelle Strinja <michelle...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote: > > do most people out there play with a card limit > > No. Some benighted souls do, however - a sincere but deluded minority, Uhm, for sure there's a minority who play with a limit card, but i think that is not in your rights to call that minority "deluded". Even though in my group we use to play with the NLC, for a lot we played with a limit card. I think we were not "deluded" at all in doing that. Simply different, with a different game perspective, as is now anyone who enjoy to play Vtes with a LC. Regards Aemilianus, Prince of Rome > whom the rest of us gently and tolerantly try to guide back into the True > Path. Unless we are Matthew Green, when we froth, fulminate and curse > them back into the true path, or more probably ignore them altogether. > Jyhad/VTES was designed to work with no card limits, and the design is > strong. Some of the most interesting deck types actually don't work at > all with card limits - Setite Corruption being the easiest to play and > cheapest to make, but other examples include IG rush and the Betrayer > deck. > > or do you play with 20 > > majesty? > > No. About 14-16 majesties is right for a presence deck in most people's > opinion. Me, i tend to go for 5 or so and a load of Fake outs and dodges > and Changes of target plus 1-2 deer rifles. As peter bakija pointed out > in another thread, if you are scared of combat decks you only need to > bugger up 1-2 of their rushes to spike their guns. Majesty is NOT the > best way to achieve this, because it is totally hosed by IG rush - > diversity is better. > > how much is too much?? > > > There's no complete or consensual answer to this question, but i'll offer > my opinion. If you have more than about 10 of any card in your deck then > you are probably making rather a focussed deck. This isn't always a bad > thing, but sometimes it WILL be a bad thing, because every deck type in > VTES has a counter, and if you come up against that counter with your > very focussed deck, well, you will spend rather a boring 40 or so minutes > getting your pink little arse kicked good and proper. > > BTW if you personally really REALLY get off on card limits then maybe you > should play sealed-deck - fun, egalitarian and the card-limit issue just > doesn't arise. > [ quoted text not captured ]

My group doesn't play with card limits. The reasons? Card limits are too M:TG-like, isn't that enough? I don't remember ever hearing of a tournement with a card limit, and I like to make my decks tournementish. But the main reason... it's just a nice thing that the game is balanced enough initially so no card limits are needed. -t!MmY Malkavian goofball [ quoted text not captured ]

tetragr...@my-deja.com wrote: > Uhm, for sure there's a minority who play with a limit card, > but i think that is not in your rights to call that minority > "deluded". *exercises U.S. consitutional right to free speech* Card limits. BAD. No card limits. GOOD. 3CL/4CL/6CL Playgroups. DELUDED. Noal -- "What you cannot enforce, do not command." -- Socrates [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 23 May 2000, Cheesecake wrote: > Our decks were way too boring, There are many ways to avoid making decks boring beyond using xCL, however. If they're playing 20 Majesties, there are ways to combat that. Why not use them? -- James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D "I know my ex-boyfriend lies. Oh, he does it every time. It's just his permanent disguise, yeah, yeah, but he's drop dead gorgeous."

In article <8geh0a$qkl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > tetragr...@my-deja.com wrote: > > Uhm, for sure there's a minority who play with a limit card, > > but i think that is not in your rights to call that minority > > "deluded". > > *exercises U.S. consitutional right to free speech* > > Card limits. BAD. > No card limits. GOOD. > 3CL/4CL/6CL Playgroups. DELUDED. For sure, you don't need to shout your opinion with those capitals. I don't want to restrict opinions, only asking for respect of others' opinions. Call a minority DELUDED if they play with a LC is not so respectful, you know. Regards, Aemilinus, Prince of Rome [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 23 May 2000, Cheesecake wrote: > limit of 4 cards set by Magic CCG industry. This way the other players had > the opportunity to put their hands on the good cards and we all got to add > diversity in our decks. Seen any good Corruption decks lately? [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8gdujv$cjt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > ml...@netusa1.net wrote: > > Our group plays with a 4 card limit. Also no max number of cards but a > > minimum of 12 in our crypts. Very balanced game play. > > Card limits are bad. Mmmmmkay? > > Card limits of any kind benefit stealth bleed decks and hamper truly > creative deck designs based on rarely used cards. Better (or worse), it helps much more the frequently abused cards, like Direct Intervention, Majesty and so on Just my thought. Aemlianus, Prince of Rome > > Noal McDonald > National Jyhad League [ quoted text not captured ]

we here in vienna used to play 4cl only. i doubt this was very deluded. just different. nowadays we also play a lot of nocl, also because the torunament rules tell us to do so. but we still play 4cl limit games a lot. it is a different game environment and encourages variety in a game that hasn't seen any new cards for far too long. in my opinion card limit variations and others (sabbat only or 50% of crypt non-camarilla etc.) can do a very good job in keping players interested. i can only repeat, 4cl is neither stupid nor deluded. it is just different and forces players to adapt to a new game environment. and please don't tell me about the allmighty stealth bleed deck. the countermeasures are numerous, even under 4cl: 4 bleed bouncers, elder intervention, intercept locations, atonement, sport bike, archon investigation, blessing of chaos etc. etc. apart from that i have seen very few table sweeps by stealth bleeders in more than three years of competitive 4cl play. just my 0.02 pallando Michelle Strinja <michelle...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote: 39296426...@sk.sympatico.ca... > do most people out there play with a card limit or do you play with 20 > majesty? how much is too much?? >

mgre...@my-deja.com schrieb: > > You play 3cl (WTF?) and you're a Prince? > > /shakes head in despair/ I惴 working on it! But even as Prince (a job in wich I'm a relative freshman) its hard for me to convice our hardcore players who say they扉e allways played like this and will not change it. A part of them is not even willing to accept the erratas, rulings... They are quite bull-headed. But I've managed to convert the better part of my domain and the rest will follow (*manical laughter*). In private play I can愒 do much about it but in tournament: take it or leave it! Markus Prince of Mannheim, Germany NP: Haggard - Awakening the centuries [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8ge7ig$j99$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, mgre...@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <392A34C1...@she.de>, > Markus Reinsch <rei...@she.de> wrote: > > > We play an 3CL for non-unique, 1CL for unniques and Vamps with at > least > > 12 vmps in your crypt. > > > > Markus, V:EKN Prince of Mannheim, Germany > > > > You play 3cl (WTF?) and you're a Prince? > > /shakes head in despair/ > > Ahh, the biannual CL/NL debate around again, right on time. I wouldn't > miss it for the world. SEE: > > * The NEW and not-at-all repetitive arguments > * CL guys and gals come out of the woodwork > * People post up the URLs of the last debate > * The size of the thread grow to ludicrous proportions Hey! You forgot the wounded egos and escalating flame-war! i've already pissed off tetragrammaton and, in another thread, Fred from Arizona! i blame hormones, myself. This thread always seems to crop up when the summer dresses come out. > > and lets forget, COMING SOON: > > Diversity vs. 'broken' decks > > featuring; > * the Malkavian SB arguement > * the corruption counter-arguement > * every other post in the thread by James Coupe > * the amazing 35 Crytic mission/ majesty/ bleed modifier/ drawing out > the beast decks that are apparently are too powerful (yet curiously have > never done well in any tournament ever) > > For the love of god stop this thread now. > > matt > --- > It's aaaaawwll the same, it's only the names that ch-a-ange... > It IS very boring for the old players, and i'm certainly not responding to people who should know better rehashing the same old stuff. But the reason this thread keeps reemerging is that we keep getting new players. That's good, and their questions deserve to be fielded as they are asked, in the spirit of honest enquiry. OK, that's Tetragrammaton, Fred and now probably Matthew all cursing me for a pompous old git. Hmmm, who can i offend now? [ quoted text not captured ]

> For sure, you don't need to shout your opinion with those capitals. > I don't want to restrict opinions, only asking for respect of others' > opinions. Call a minority DELUDED if they play with a LC is not so > respectful, you know. > Regards, > Aemilinus, Prince of Rome I don't respect people that argue the same circular arguments ad infinitum. Apparently, reasoned arguments haven't put the baby to bed...even after all these years. So, I'm gonna pound it into to peoples' heads by being a browbeating fascist. Maybe that'll have better results. Card limits. BAD. No card limits. GOOD. 3CL/4CL/6CL Playgroups. DELUDED. Don't like it? Tough. Noal McDonald Priscus of Farmington Hills, MI National Jyhad League -- "What you cannot enforce, do not command." -- Socrates [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald wrote: > > > For sure, you don't need to shout your opinion with those capitals. > > I don't want to restrict opinions, only asking for respect of others' > > opinions. Call a minority DELUDED if they play with a LC is not so > > respectful, you know. > > Regards, > > Aemilinus, Prince of Rome > > I don't respect people that argue the same circular arguments ad > infinitum. Apparently, reasoned arguments haven't put the baby to > bed...even after all these years. So, I'm gonna pound it into to > peoples' heads by being a browbeating fascist. Maybe that'll have > better results. > > Card limits. BAD. > No card limits. GOOD. > 3CL/4CL/6CL Playgroups. DELUDED. Do you advocate the same treatment for people who bring the same old arguments for other topics in the face of reasoned arguments? -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | "We're having scaloppine http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | again today," Tom revealed. Graphics Specialist and V:TES Rulemonger |

"L. Scott Johnson" <sjoh...@math.sc.edu> wrote: > Do you advocate the same treatment for people who bring the same > old arguments for other topics in the face of reasoned arguments? Do I have to explicitly state when I'm being tongue-in-cheek? (Which is most of the time.) Noal [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8ggie2$7e8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > > > For sure, you don't need to shout your opinion with those capitals. > > I don't want to restrict opinions, only asking for respect of others' > > opinions. Call a minority DELUDED if they play with a LC is not so > > respectful, you know. > > Regards, > > Aemilinus, Prince of Rome > > I don't respect people that argue the same circular arguments ad > infinitum. Apparently, reasoned arguments haven't put the baby to > bed...even after all these years. So, I'm gonna pound it into to > peoples' heads by being a browbeating fascist. Maybe that'll have > better results. > > Card limits. BAD. > No card limits. GOOD. > 3CL/4CL/6CL Playgroups. DELUDED. > > Don't like it? Tough. If i like it or not is irrelevant here. However it seems me that you're not considering the fact that new players come here every day, and if some players are used to play with a CL maybe they want to discuss the stuff with others playing with NCL. Even if the discussion is bothersome for some of the old players, doesn't mean that is the same for the newbes. I see no delusion at all in this, nor the need for you or others to call with capital "deluded" those players. Regards Aemilinus, Prince of Rome > > Noal McDonald > Priscus of Farmington Hills, MI > National Jyhad League [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Aemilianus, Prince of Rome [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 23 May 2000 tetragr...@my-deja.com wrote: > Call a minority DELUDED if they play with a LC > is not so respectful, you know. Perhaps the newsgroup should be introduced to the concept of sarcasm and humour? [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.0005241938030.16323- 100...@orange.csi.cam.ac.uk>, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > On Tue, 23 May 2000 tetragr...@my-deja.com wrote: > > Call a minority DELUDED if they play with a LC > > is not so respectful, you know. > > Perhaps the newsgroup should be introduced to the concept of sarcasm and > humour? No problem with humor. However, if you read Noal's response to my thread you'll hardly find any humor in his words. At least not the typical english humor (alas, maybe he's a Yankee). Regards Aemilianus, Prince of Rome > > -- > James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D > > "I know my ex-boyfriend lies. Oh, he does it every time. It's just his > permanent disguise, yeah, yeah, but he's drop dead gorgeous." > > [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 24 May 2000 tetragr...@my-deja.com wrote: > If i like it or not is irrelevant here. That a large number of people do not understand the concept of 'tongue in cheek' humour, however, is. Simple flow chart: Is this apparently offensive? | ------------No---------------------------Yes---------| | | | | Don't Worry | Was it written by Noal? | ---------Yes-----------------No----| | | | | Then it's intended Deliberate as tongue in cheek as humour necessary [ quoted text not captured ]

tetragr...@my-deja.com wrote: > No problem with humor. > However, if you read Noal's response to my thread you'll hardly find > any humor in his words. At least not the typical english humor (alas, > maybe he's a Yankee). > Regards > Aemilianus, Prince of Rome Noal is a certified, card carring Yank! Hope that helps Raille

James Coupe wrote: > Perhaps the newsgroup should be introduced to the concept of sarcasm and> humour? You should keep in mind that the newsgroup is international, and a lot of people for whom English is not their native language may be quite fluent in English, but will nonetheless miss humor and sarcasm that doesn't translate across cultures. -David

David Edelstein <ama...@amadan.org> wrote: > You should keep in mind that the newsgroup is international, > and a lot of people for whom English is not their native > language may be quite fluent in English, but will nonetheless > miss humor and sarcasm that doesn't translate across cultures. Hence the handy flowchart that James was kind enough to provide for all to use. Btw, thanks James, I got a kick out of that. *grin* If I had the time, I would modify that "Napster Bad" animation that makes fun of Metallica and adopt it to the Card Limits argument. All I'd have to do with the animation of James Hetfield to make him look like me is darken his hair and remove the facial hair. Noal -- "What you cannot enforce, do not command." -- Socrates [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 25 May 2000, David Edelstein wrote: > You should keep in mind that the newsgroup is international, and a lot > of people for whom English is not their native language may be quite > fluent in English, but will nonetheless miss humor and sarcasm that > doesn't translate across cultures. Indeed. Anyone reading comments on Usenet without a *firm* grasp of the language in which the article is written should perhaps ask questions regarding it before just attacking the person, since they have quite possibly mis-read something. [ quoted text not captured ]