Heaven's Gate and Escaped Mental Patient, please help me understand

Hello Group, I do not understand the interaction of these two cards. I have been told how they work, but I still don't understand the causality. I am not arguing the ruling, I am trying to understand why. Please troll another thread, I am not here to make you feel special, if you have nothing constructive to say, move on. Scenario: Escaped Mental Patient(EMP) is in combat with another minion. EMP uses his card text to strike at +1 damage, aggravated. He somehow survives strike resolution. Then his text "Burn him at the end of combat" is triggered, he burns. Important fact: He burns in combat Then I play Heaven's Gate: He moves to the Uncontrolled Region, gains no life since he can't exceed starting amount. Important Confusion: HE STILL BURNS? since combat is still ending? Reason: He follows the Blood Brother Ambush template, next reason given, combat ends again due to HG retriggering his text. Ok no idea why this ruling is as it is. I think they "burn" text should occur once, if it is interrupted then it should be over. Why does EMP's text keep triggering? effects happen once: Jeremy Talbot Clan: Malkavian (group 3) Capacity: 4 Disciplines: dem obf Camarilla: During your untap phase, check your pool total. Jeremy gains 1 blood if your pool total is even and burns 1 blood if your pool total is odd. I have read I can't keep checking it, say if I had vessels, and I wanted to gain more than 1 blood. I check his effect once, not repeatedly. I truly welcome assistance. Other Thoughts: BBA says if combat is canceled burn BBA, so Escaped Mental Patient Type: Ally Requires: Malkavian antitribu Cost: 2 pool Mortal with 1 life. 1 strength, 0 bleed. Escaped Mental Patient can enter combat with any minion controlled by another Methuselah as a (D) action. The Patient can strike: hand strike at +1 damage, aggravated. Burn him at the end of combat if he does so. Heaven's Gate Type: Combat Requires: Obeah/Necromancy Cost: 1 blood Only usable by a ready untapped vampire not involved in combat. [nec] Prevent 1 damage to an ally in combat. [obe] Only usable when an ally is burned in combat. Move that ally to his or her controller's uncontrolled region (controlled, but not ready) instead. Put 1 life on the ally from the blood bank if he or she has no life. [OBE] As [obe] above, but add up to 2 life to the ally, not to exceed his or her starting amount. Blood Brother Ambush Type: Action Modifier Requires: Brujah antitribu Cost: 2 blood Only usable when an action is blocked. Combat does not occur. Put this card into play. While in play, this card represents an ally with 3 life and 2 strength who can strike for 2R damage; this ally enters combat with the blocking minion. Blood Brothers may play cards requiring basic Potence as a vampire with a capacity of 3. Any cost in blood is paid with life. If a card would give them blood, give them life instead. Burn this card at the end of combat or if the combat is canceled.

On Sep 24, 11:16 am, Wilsoros <davewilso...@gmail.com> wrote: > Why does EMP's text keep triggering? effects happen once: > > Jeremy Talbot > Clan: Malkavian (group 3) > Capacity: 4 > Disciplines: dem obf > Camarilla: During your untap phase, check your pool total. Jeremy > gains 1 blood if your pool total is even and burns 1 blood if your > pool total is odd. > > I have read I can't keep checking it, say if I had vessels, and I > wanted to gain more than 1 blood. I check his effect once, not > repeatedly. That would be because JT's text (and many, many similar cards that, as you say, check once) use the "During X, Do Y" template. That template has expressly been ruled to mean "Once During X, Do Y." Additionally, Heaven's Gate has something happen "instead" of burning the Ally. So BBA or EMP (which don't have the "During X, Do Y" template) looks at the fact that combat is ending, says "Have I burned? No? Burn me." If HG is played at this point, they go to uncontrolled instead, and we go back to end-of-combat, and the EMP checks and says "Nope, I still didn't burn - I did something instead. Burn me." - D.J.

> That would be because JT's text (and many, many similar cards that, as > you say, check once) use the "During X, Do Y" template. That template > has expressly been ruled to mean "Once During X, Do Y." Agreed, I should not have mentioned JT't text. > Additionally, Heaven's Gate has something happen "instead" of burning > the Ally. So BBA or EMP (which don't have the "During X, Do Y" > template) looks at the fact that combat is ending, says "Have I > burned? No? Burn me." If HG is played at this point, they go to > uncontrolled instead, and we go back to end-of-combat, and the EMP > checks and says "Nope, I still didn't burn - I did something instead. > Burn me." > I disagree with you, I burned the EMP, or else I could not play HG, it says play when an Ally is burned. I am not arguing that the ruling is wrong, I am trying to understand the chain of causality. My argument: EMP was burned with his text, therefore enabling the use of HG.

[ quoted text not captured ] Except a card was played that replaced the 'burn' with something else. Parallel: if you diablerize my vampire via Amaranth and I respond with Reform Body, there is no bloodhunt because you did not diablerize my vampire; I replaced that with an "instead" effect. -John Flournoy

On Sep 24, 11:44 am, Wilsoros <davewilso...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Additionally, Heaven's Gate has something happen "instead" of burning > > the Ally. So BBA or EMP (which don't have the "During X, Do Y" > > template) looks at the fact that combat is ending, says "Have I > > burned? No? Burn me." If HG is played at this point, they go to > > uncontrolled instead, and we go back to end-of-combat, and the EMP > > checks and says "Nope, I still didn't burn - I did something instead. > > Burn me." > > I disagree with you, I burned the EMP, or else I could not play HG, it > says play when an Ally is burned. As John Flournoy points out, you did something else instead, via HG. I think there's a good case to be made that HG, and other cards that say "instead", should be more explicit about timing - that they should read "When an Ally *would be* burned..." instead of "*is* burned..." and similar. > I am not arguing that the ruling is wrong, I am trying to understand > the chain of causality. Understandable. HG steps in when the burn effect would happen; it prevents that from happening. (Hence the "Instead.") If the burn effect is non-optional, and triggered by something that's still in place, then it still hasn't happened. - D.J.

[ quoted text not captured ] Here's the real key (having talked to you on IRC about it): The card says "when an ally is burned in combat... (do something else) instead." You are reading that as "instead of moving them to the ash heap, but they still have burned." This is not correct. the card doesn't say 'when they are put in the ash heap', it says 'when they are burned'; the 'instead' is referring back to the only text it can, i.e. 'when an ally is burned'. So it replaces the entire 'this ally is burned' with (do something else). If it meant "when this ally is burned, they burn to your uncontrolled region instead of your ash heap", that would make no sense for things like ghouls created via Absimilard's Army (which are removed from game and never go to the ash heap). No matter how much you want to think it is saying "instead of going to the ash heap", there is simply no text on the card mentioning "ash heap" or any other partial-aspect of "a minion burns" - the "instead of" is "instead of burning", much like how Reform Body is "instead of diablerie" and not "instead of being burned when you are diablerized". So when you play Heaven's Gate, that means you do not burn, do not count as burning, and no longer trigger any effect that happen when a minion burns (like Tension, Khazar's, Path of Death and the Soul, or anything else.) -John Flournoy

John Section 1.2 of Vtes rules When a counter is "burned," it is returned to the blood bank (see Blood Bank and the Edge, sec 2.2). Sometimes, an instruction may say to remove a card from the game. While some cards and effects can retrieve cards from the ash heap, cards that are removed from the game cannot be retrieved or affected in any way. When a card is burned or removed from the game, any counters or other cards on it are burned.

[ quoted text not captured ] This quoted section of the rules is completely irrelevant. Why are you quoting it? -John Flournoy

Ok to all those like me who didn't understand this card interaction, here we go EMP burns because combat ends, HG is played to prevent the burn and instead send the minion to UC region, EMP is placed in the UC region, causing combat to end, EMP burns because combat ends, this time due to a minion leaving the ready region. issue over, for me anyways.

[ quoted text not captured ] Actually, if the combat is ended... How can HG be played at all? It doesn't seem to be a card that should be played during the "Psyche!/TT Window"... Just a thought..

[ quoted text not captured ] TT is played during combat, like HG. HG is played as combat is ending, not after it has ended.

[ quoted text not captured ] So, is the "at the end" still considered "during"? TT and Undead Persistence both have a "if it will end" sort of phrase, Psyche! has been given an "if it is ending, restart". I just don't know if I quite see the requirement for Heaven's Gate "burned during combat" coming from the Mental Patient. The Mental Patient would seem to remain ready until the combat ends... (ergo if you could prevent the damage and press over and over it could make an Agg strike over and over...). I suppose it all comes down to the phrase "at the end". Was it ever intended to be "during combat"? From its text I would have assumed it was meant to be "Combat now ends, and your EMP is burned now".

Juggernaut1981 wrote: > On Sep 25, 8:26 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> Juggernaut1981 wrote: >>> On Sep 25, 8:01 am, Wilsoros <davewilso...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Ok to all those like me who didn't understand this card interaction, >>>> here we go >>>> EMP burns because combat ends, >>>> HG is played to prevent the burn and instead send the minion to UC >>>> region, >>>> EMP is placed in the UC region, causing combat to end, >>>> EMP burns because combat ends, this time due to a minion leaving the >>>> ready region. >>>> issue over, for me anyways. >>> Actually, if the combat is ended... How can HG be played at all? It >>> doesn't seem to be a card that should be played during the "Psyche!/TT >>> Window"... >> TT is played during combat, like HG. >> >> HG is played as combat is ending, not after it has ended. > > So, is the "at the end" still considered "during"? > TT and Undead Persistence both have a "if it will end" sort of phrase, > Psyche! has been given an "if it is ending, restart". TT: "Only usable when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end. " > I just don't know if I quite see the requirement for Heaven's Gate > "burned during combat" coming from the Mental Patient. The Mental > Patient would seem to remain ready until the combat ends... (ergo if > you could prevent the damage and press over and over it could make an > Agg strike over and over...). > > I suppose it all comes down to the phrase "at the end". Was it ever > intended to be "during combat"? From its text I would have assumed it > was meant to be "Combat now ends, and your EMP is burned now". In this case, it's largely moot, since HG won't ultimately save the EMP.

[ quoted text not captured ] While I understand that it is Moot (one is a "check once to meet requirements" vs a "constant state check")... but assuming that there are other cards with the phrase "at the end of combat", are those effects intended to occur when the combat "has ended" or "the only other event left in the queue is the ending of combat". Psyche! is also one of these cards with an "at the end of combat" phrases... Coordinate Attacks Combat Requires: Same Circle. Sanguinus Requires a ready untapped Blood Brother of the same circle as another one you control in combat. [san] Only usable *at the end of combat* if the minion opposing the Blood Brother you control is still ready. This Blood Brother taps and enters combat with the opposing minion. The first round of combat, the opposing minion cannot play any strike cards. [SAN] As [san] above, and this Blood Brother gets an optional maneuver on the first round of combat. Horrid Reality Combat Requires: Chi Cost: 2 blood Only usable before range is determined in combat. [chi] Equip this minion with the first weapon you find in your library (working down from the top). Do not pay the cost for this weapon. Shuffle afterward. At the end of the combat, burn the weapon if it is still in play. [CHI] As above, but return the equipment to your library at the end of combat if it is still in play. Shuffle afterward.

> Psyche! is also one of these cards with an "at the end of combat" > phrases... > > Coordinate Attacks > Combat > Requires: Same Circle. Sanguinus > Requires a ready untapped Blood Brother of the same circle as another > one you control in combat. > [san] Only usable *at the end of combat* if the minion opposing the > Blood Brother you control is still ready. This Blood Brother taps and > enters combat with the opposing minion. The first round of combat, > the opposing minion cannot play any strike cards. > [SAN] As [san] above, and this Blood Brother gets an optional maneuver > on the first round of combat. After the press step, you have the end of round step, after the end of round step you have the end of combat step if there are no presses in the previous step. To be clear End of Round happens before End of Combat, so you could not play Disarm after playing CA, but assuming there were an effect which made the opposing minion no longer ready, you would then cancel CA since you can't enter combat with a minion who isn't ready. It could also be argued I think that CA is no longer effective since it constantly checks if you can enter combat with the minion during the End of Combat, hmm need sleep not sure that made any sense. > > Horrid Reality > Combat > Requires: Chi > Cost: 2 blood > Only usable before range is determined in combat. > [chi] Equip this minion with the first weapon you find in your library > (working down from the top). Do not pay the cost for this weapon. > Shuffle afterward. At the end of the combat, burn the weapon if it is > still in play. > [CHI] As above, but return the equipment to your library at the end of > combat if it is still in play. Shuffle afterward. if you somehow avoided the burning of this equipment in combat, then it would burn again like escaped mental patient, since at the end of combat it is burned by its text. my 2 pools worth.

[ quoted text not captured ] That's if it is still in play. You could potentially Horrid Reality a Kerrie into play and then keep it because you sent it out of play (using the ranged strike text) and then combat ended. Since it is out of play at the end of combat, you get to keep it (when it comes back in later). So yeah, it's important to know what "at the end of combat" actually means in a sequence. Is it "combat has just completed" or is it "the only step left in this combat is the ending of the combat"? And trust me, I'd be MASSIVELY tempted to play a Ravnos Mass Reality Kerrie deck if I could use Horrid Reality to get them for FREE and never have to put them back.

[ quoted text not captured ] > In this case, it's largely moot, since HG won't ultimately save the EMP.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - It's also about wether it would be valid to cycle 3 Heaven's Gates out of your hand knowing that the EMP was going to die anyway...

[ quoted text not captured ] Cannot this happen already since the Kerrie does not return until the end of the action and the Horrid Realty check would have passed?

[ quoted text not captured ] > end of the action and the Horrid Realty check would have passed?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I'm just wanting to know where the "at the end of combat" moment happens. If it happens during, but always the very last thing, then the Kerrie Trick would work. If it happens immediately after combat ends, then Kerrie may not work.

On Sep 28, 3:49 pm, Juggernaut1981 <brasscompo...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm just wanting to know where the "at the end of combat" moment > happens. Valid question, sure, but the Kerrie analogy does not fit the equation. >If it happens during, but always the very last thing, then > the Kerrie Trick would work. If it happens immediately after combat > ends, then Kerrie may not work. The Kerrie trick works in either scenario since it comes back at the end of the action not the combat. Your MASSIVE temptation can already be fulfilled: Tsunda, No Secrets, maybe a few auspex weenies for Anima Gathering with Packer's and you're golden (that is if you truly believe that 2 blood instead of 1 pool is FREE). Frankly, Zip Gun is easier and maybe more efficient to use.