!Ventrue Newsletter November 03

Hah! I bet you thought I'd given up! Well, you were wrong. My semester is over and once more I have completed the newsletter. With any luck I'll have one for December too, there's just so much !Ventru-y goodness to talk about.... +-----------------------+ Once and Future Kings Ventrue Antitribu Newsletter (November 03) 1 – Introduction 2 – Feature – The Rank and File of the Hand 3 – Stratagems – #3 "Kill with a borrowed knife" 4 – Vampire of the Month – Owain Evens, The Wanderer 5 – You're not cleared to see this 6 – Deckstravaganza – !Vote 7 – Final Words 1 – Introduction Well, we're hear once more, and since last we spoke the ranks of the Sabbat have swelled significantly. The Black Hand is a veritable gold mine for the !Ventrue, and though many clans benefit, I am probably not alone in saying that the !Ventrue have received the biggest boost as a result of the set. So everyone have a seat around the hearth, steep yourself a pot of Earl Grey and join me for our latest (and really late) issue of Once and Future Kings. 2 – Feature – The Rank and File of the Hand The Black Hand are the elite of the Sabbat, the coldest of killers. They are also the newest Jyhad set to hit the block, and boy does it weigh in heavy. It offers quality vampires and library cards that while introducing new possibilities do not unduly raise the power curve. By Clan: The Brujah Antitribu receive 7 new vampires. Of particular note are Wah Chun-Yuen, who will complement the Euro-Brujah with his POT cel and dom at 5 capacity, Henry Taylor, who can recycle combat cards and Miguel Santo Domingo, who's ability to grant bleed bonuses to minions is likely to cause decks based around him. Their new library card is Vendetta, a marvellous card that allows !Brujah to rush vampires who have bled their Methuselah (for more than 2) with +1 strength. Bleed decks beware! The !Gangrel gain members of their city and urban bloodline. Jalan is impressive, being Karsh's slightly younger and almost as dangerous brother. Their card, Talons of the Dead, is effective, but costly, and by default makes it more difficult to do the kinds of things that !Gangrel want to do. The ability to burn it is nice, but for the 2 pool invested it doesn't seem worth it. The Lasombra have 3 Black Hand vampires in their ranks, including a 5 capacity Seraph with DOM. In addition, Nahir's special ability stands to make that vampire an interesting centrepiece for deck construction. San Nicolas is a wonderful new card that makes rushing Lasombra quite the invest at 1 pool per attempt. Obtenebration also receives Tenebrous Form, a relatively mundane stealth card. The !Malkavians do alright. Midget is a machine for evil stealth bleeders. Even if he is Infernal he seems quite worth the cost considering how quickly he can do massive pool loss. Sibyl's tongue seems to carry with it great potential, and in combination with necromancy could keep the cost of playing it exceptionally low. The !Nosferatu also receive more quality vampires. Mateusz joins Laz in the +2 strength club, with his disciplines at SUP for 8 capacity. Teresita the Godmother is a well costed Seraph with all 3 at SUP and for. Yong Sung (A) might be a vampire to make a deck around, and I consider him to be the best (as of yet) printed Merged version. The info network gives them permacept for cheap, which really instills the flavour of the Nosferatu clan. The Pander get a small offering, with Alfred (A) and Olga. The !Toreador get one amazing vampire. Yitzak fits my celeriturgy deck like an old comfy glove. Combine that with his built in Mind Numb and he is a wonderful machine. Patronage gives the !Toreador the ability to untap more, but at the cost of one pool is quite expensive. The !Tremere make a comeback with Ian in the Starter. Selena is also a solid addition to the !Tremere family, though Goratrix (A) is a one man clan destroying beast. Recure the homeland is an effective card, though when compared to Rapid Healing and Chantry seems a little lacking. Regardless, it's a way to get out of torpor cheaply, and thus will be of some value. As for the !Ventrue, well… I'll be taking a look at them over time. Suffice to say that their vampires are a major improvement, and Loyalist is a wonderful anti-vote card. 3 – Stratagems – #3 "Kill with a borrowed knife" Killing with a borrowed knife can be taken from two distinct vantage points: Firstly, it involves the acquisition of your opponents resources (ala Hostile Takeover, Kine Dominance, Spirit Marionette, et al). I will not dig too deeply into this strategic element, only because the advantages are so obvious. By acquiring other people's resources you increase your resources while simultaneously decreasing theirs. Even if the stolen goods are of no use to you they eliminate the possibility of your foe using them. Secondly, there exists a social factor in this game who's tangible effect is difficult to quantify - though everyone has seen its effects in action. In this case knives are metaphorically the tools (cards) that you have at your disposal to undermine your prey and predator. A borrowed knife is one that is not normally yours, but through persuasion or negotiation on your part are being put to use for your behalf. What becomes key in many games is not the resources that you personally have available, but what resources others choose to use or not use to hinder. Let us now specifically focus on the notion of "Table Balance" (TB). TB is a meta-word that describes the act of creating an ideal situation where all Methuselahs in the game have an equal opportunity at winning. Whenever one Methuselah begins to get an edge (not The Edge) in a game, the call for TB is uttered, to restore "balance" to the table. This very notion of TB is a scam, a confidence game; If someone says they want TB what they are really saying is "I don't have the advantage right now but would like others to over-react to the current situation and in doing so give me the advantage." Though there may be genuine need to stop a player who has taken an obvious lead, each individual person is playing the game to get VPs. Everyone engaging in TB is doing so under the impression that in the long run, even if they rush across table (for instance), that they will benefit from it in the end. How then can we successfully employ TB to benefit us the most? The trick is to inflate the severity occurrences. Your primary targets for persuasion will almost always be your grand-prey and grand-predator, both who are close enough to directly intervene (aka block / bleed) against your two enemies. Your chief objective is to make them believe that you cannot deal with X (whatever X may happen to be) on your own and that X will either oust them or create an impenetrable wall to eliminate their chance of winning. Exaggeration: "That War Ghoul is going to chop your Ventrue to itty bits" Most experienced players recognise a threat when it hits the table. Because different deck archetypes perceive what is threatening to them differently it is essential to know the strengths and weaknesses of your Grand-prey and Grand-predator as quickly as possible. Armed with that foreknowledge it is easier to make word choices that will coerce your allies. Ideally call to have others remove the threat, making excuses such as "I would deal with the situation exact my Predator has been pressuring and I need my vampires untapped." Back Scratching: "If you vote down that PTO I'll vote for your next vote" Due to the attack left defend right mechanic in the game, it is not difficult to see who your potential allies can be. The dynamic present in the game is such that if you are too weak (or on the defensive) then your prey doesn't have to commit to defence and can instead apply much more forward pressure. This innately is bad news for your Grand-prey, who ought to do as much as possible to ensure that his Predator is in a bad spot so that he has more time to do exactly what his Predator is doing to her in this example. By opening the negotiation pathway you begin a little game within the game: You are endeavouring to weaken your prey to the point where you can oust her, while your Grand-pre is trying to weaken your prey to the point where she has to focus almost exclusively on defence in order to not be ousted. Your prime advantage here is persuading your Grand-prey that you are less offensively capable than you truly are. By the time they know your true capabilities your prey should already be dust. At times, it may be essential to follow your deals to the very letter "You said you wouldn't bleed me for three turns" "Yes, well… it's been A, B, and C's turn, now it's mine." Appeal to Authority: "I've seen this deck before, If we let it do X it will sweep" Authority is an interesting subject in the V:tES community. There are members within the community that carry more weight, by virtue of their net presence or proven capacity at winning. In any city sized grouping there are players with more or less experience, commitment or varying level of credibility. These are the players that have authority, and as a result will carry more weight in table talk. In any given table talk the word of your Prey and Predator by default must be viewed on dubious grounds. Your Predator, in the very least, is trying to oust you, while you Prey only wants to see you strong enough to survive. Manipulating other players based on previous experience and omens of doom and gloom is an effective strategy. Am I saying that its ok to abuse your knowledge of the game? Yes, I am, insofar as your not manipulating on a mechanical level (misconstruing rules and whatnot). Deception is a factor in this game, and if imposing yourself on people that don't know any better gives you a leg up on people then by all means take it (keeping in mind previous statements regarding credibility). Fear Tactics: "Deal with that Anarch Revolt or I'll burn your Cardinal" Intimidation is a tool not to be used lightly on the table. It burns negotiating bridges that might otherwise have been fruitful. When necessary though, use of fear tactics can prove successful. All players have a reputation that develops for them, whether they are honest about deals made, or follow through on their threats pass on from game to game. People who are caught bluffing are proven to be bluffers and are treated differently than those that don't at all. If you use fear, make sure you can follow it up, otherwise your intimidations will never be respected by that playgroup (until they forget about it). Be as specific as possible without overly prewarning your target. Specifics lend credence to your argument, but revealing too much makes it possible to better defend against it. Bluff intimidation if, and only if, you have no way of dealing with something that is sure to oust you though no one else seems to believe you. Semantics: "How can you help me?" In table talk for TB what is said is important, but not nearly so much as how it is said. A salesman mentality is essential for the task. Don't ask "Will you help me?" ask "How can you help me?" The former allows for someone to say no more easily than the latter. Demand explanations - it is a singularly human quality to answer questions that are asked of them, especially if your timing is correct. Use this to your advantage. Put the focus on the person you're making the deal with, and not on yourself, people are more inclined to help themselves then help their potential opponent. To this effect, remind them of what the threat means to them: Permacept means haven't to have additional stealth to do some of the most common things like call votes. A Camarilla Exemplary means that they'll be burning blood to block once you are ousted. Focus on the long term if the short term has no weight to the person you're dealing with. Ultimately, the knives of your opponents may be just as sharp as yours, but why waste the investment if somebody else's knife is willing to do the trick for you? 4 – Vampire of the Month – Owain Evans, The Wanderer The problem with my Vampire of the Month segment is that I have to choose _a_ vampire of the month. Black Hand is an epiphany for the !Ventrue clan, with vampires of a calibre otherwise unseen in the Rightful Clan of Kings. My pick of the very beefy Black Hand litter however, is Owain Evans. Owain Evans, The Wanderer !Ventrue Group 3 Capacity 8 cel pre AUS DOM FOR Sabbat: During any Methuselah's untap phase, if Owain is ready, you may move a blood from the blood bank to a vampire that Methuselah controls. The good: Owain is almost everything you could want in a !Ventrue - all three clan disciplines at advanced and a remarkable special. Not only is Owain a built in hunting ground for yourself, it is also a hunting ground for all of your friends (or whomever you deem to be your friends). For the purpose of table-talk Owain has got to be the best negotiator next to the Succubus Club. Simply agree to give your grandprey blood for that all important vote in your favour. It also acts as a table balancer - if your predator is getting his teeth kicked in and looks like he won't be able to hang on without some intervention then Owain can come to the rescue. Also good - note that Owain can put blood on any vampire that methuselah controls, even if they are in torpor. In that respect it is better than a hunting ground. The bad: Well… a bishop title in lieu of cel would have made me an even happier camper. He's an awfully large vampire that although costed well (his special is easily worth the 1 point he paid for it), the !Ventrue aren't nearly as strong as other voting clans on titles. You could argue that a few !Ventrue have cel and it combines well, but at this point I don't see !Ventrue doing cel combat, which is pretty much the primary purpose of celerity. In keeping with comparing him to a hunting ground, unfortunately hunting grounds don't go to torpor like Owain can. The ugly: Combination potentials… hmm… putting blood on other Methuselah's vampires so that you can diablerize them and get the blood back. Owain is just a well balanced, good table-talkin' addition to the !Ventrue clan. Shy does the artwork, and it's not one of his typical viewed from the front pictures that we've seen a thousand times before. I'm not disappointed with the image, except that perhaps the background could be a little less monochromatic. 5 – Classified 6 – Deckstravaganza In the past I've been very down on the !Ventrue and their capacity to vote. I said "show me a !Ventrue voter that works and then I'll maybe take it seriously." Well, after some IRC play, and talking with Mesh he convinced me to put one together. This deck is obviously based off of the tag teem of Quentin and Gustav, both of which have Obtenebration. One of my major beefs was with the poor stealth selection that the clan possessed. Obtenebration, in combination with some Stealth Ritus from the new Sabbat set combine to evade more than just light intercept. Zillah's Tears are an experiment; on the surface they seem like cards that are better than hunting, and offer a great deal of blocking/bouncing/reducing versatility. For now the jury is still out on them. Deck Name: !Vote Created By: Derek Rawlings Description: The !Ventrue might actually succeed at voting? Crypt: ---------------------------------------------- 4 Quentin AUS cel DOM FOR obt 9, Ventrue Antitribu, Bishop 3 Gustav Mallenhous AUS DOM for obt 8, Ventrue Antitribu, Priscus 1 Ingrid Russo DOM for 4, Ventrue Antitribu 1 Joseph O`Grady aus cel DOM FOR 7, Ventrue Antitribu 1 Owain Evans cel pre AUS DOM FOR 8, Ventrue antitribu 2 Gerard aus dom for obt 5, Ventrue Antitribu Library: (90 cards) ------------------- Master (11 cards) 3 Blood Doll 1 Corporate Hunting Ground 2 Demonstration 1 Creepshow Casino 4 Obtenebration Action (14 cards) 6 Govern the Unaligned 4 Revelations 4 Zillah`s Tears Action Modifier (25 cards) 2 Conditioning 6 Kindred Manipulation 6 Shroud of Absence 4 Shroud of Night 5 Telepathic Vote Counting 2 Stealth Ritus Political Action (13 cards) 2 Cardinal Benediction 3 Consanguineous Boon 8 Kine Resources Contested Reaction (17 cards) 4 Deflection 2 Eagle's Sight 3 Enhanced Senses 3 Loyalist 1 Obedience 1 Precognition 3 Wake with Evening's Freshness Combat (10 cards) 3 Resilience 5 Rolling with the Punches 2 Skin of Steel On smaller tables, if not blocked, it seems relatively easy to pass votes, by either changing the ones that oppose me, and Quentining and Demonstrating all others out of existence. I need to play it more, possibly adding some Lessons of Steel to deal with pesky intercept type cards. 7 – Final Words Volume four of the !Ventrue newsletter is now complete. Please fasten your seatbelts and set your trays to the upright position. Stay tuned, more !Ventrue wackiness awaits next month. In the mean time feel free to do any of the following: ? Comment on this newsletter, scathing or otherwise ? Send me material, including decks ? Send me non-sequential bills (Those bills promised from the last newsletter must have been lost in the mail) :) Derek Rawlings

"Derek Rawlings" <dmraw...@telus.net> wrote > > and Miguel > Santo Domingo, who's ability to grant bleed bonuses to minions is likely > to cause decks based around him. Ack! Don't give away my secrets! :) > San Nicolas is a wonderful new card that makes rushing Lasombra quite > the invest at 1 pool per attempt. I don't understand why you wrote this. It's not a new card at all... it has only been printed in Sabbat War that I know of. It didn't even appear in Black Hand. Or if it did, I'm missing some cards. I don't even own a San Nicolas de Servitas. > the !Ventrue aren't > nearly as strong as other voting clans on titles. By all rights, they should be one of the strongest. 1) Quentin's special effectively grants him more votes than any other vampire at the table plus one. 2) Along the same lines, Demonstration stops someone else from interfering with a vote, effectively reducing the number of your opponents' votes thus increasing your own. 3) Telepathic Vote Counting as an Auspex card is available to the !Ven. At superior, it duplicates the effect of Demonstration (so long as you are acting). 4) Kindred Manipulation simultaneously denies your opponent's votes and gives them to you. So Quentin calls a vote with his measly two votes (Bishop 1, vote card 1). Unfortuantely, it's a vote heavy table and it looks like Arika, Stanislava, Leandro, Gratiano and Moncada all intend to vote against Quentin's referendum. It looks like this referendum will likely fail 2-18. But no! Quentin spends uses his special and pays 1 blood to cancel Arika's votes... now we're at 2-14. Tap Demonstration to cancel Leandro's votes... now we're at 2-10. Quentin then plays Kindred Manipulation to make Gratiano vote for us instead of against us, putting us at 5-6. Then cycle Telpathic Vote Counting to prevent Stanislava from taking part. Vote passes 5-2. (Then someone plays Delaying Tactics and ruins everything. But we'll pretend this doesn't happen). Sure this combo is not as sexy as Bewitching Oration followed by Voter Captivation but it gets the vote passed. Great newsletter! Cheers, WES

"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote > > Quentin spends uses his special and pays 1 blood to cancel Arika's > votes... now we're at 2-14. Tap Demonstration to cancel Leandro's > votes... now we're at 2-10. Quentin then plays Kindred Manipulation to > make Gratiano vote for us instead of against us, putting us at 5-6. Sorry, should be 5-7 at this point. > Then cycle Telpathic Vote Counting to prevent Stanislava from taking > part. > > Vote passes 5-2. Oops, 5-3 Still passed though :) Cheers, WES

On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Wes wrote: > > San Nicolas is a wonderful new card that makes rushing Lasombra quite > > the invest at 1 pool per attempt. > > I don't understand why you wrote this. It's not a new card at all... it > has only been printed in Sabbat War that I know of. It didn't even > appear in Black Hand. Or if it did, I'm missing some cards. I don't even > own a San Nicolas de Servitas. I have one, but I've never played it and I've never seen anyone else play one. In that sense, the "cannot contest" card text is kind of ironic. :) Derek also sort of implied that Patronage is a new card in this set, which it's not. It is in the !Toreador starter, though. Also Alfred Benezri advanced was new in the Anarch set, not Black Hand. Matt Morgan This card cannot be played. Anyone who attempts to play this card should consider replacing it with an Obedience or another Conditioning or something.

> I don't understand why you wrote this. It's not a new card at all... it > has only been printed in Sabbat War that I know of. It didn't even > appear in Black Hand. Or if it did, I'm missing some cards. I don't even > own a San Nicolas de Servitas. Apologies are necessary for all those cards that I thought were new but actually weren't... I suppose I'm just dumb. :) > > the !Ventrue aren't > > nearly as strong as other voting clans on titles. > By all rights, they should be one of the strongest. > > <snip argument that I agree with> You're right about all of that, but note I said as strong as other voting clans on _titles_. Their lowest available innate title for the !Ventrue is at 8 capacity. They have only 3 titled vampires. The Lasombra, in comparison have 2 cardinals and 4 Archbishops. Not that the !Ventrue necessarily need lots of titles to pass votes, but the diversity would be nice. > Sure this combo is not as sexy as Bewitching Oration followed by Voter > Captivation but it gets the vote passed. If Dominique called the vote I might have reason to quarrel with ye. :) > Great newsletter! Thanks. Next time the feature article will be written when I'm more conscious. Derek

> You're right about all of that, but note I said as strong as other voting > clans on _titles_. Their lowest available innate title for the !Ventrue is > at 8 capacity. They have only 3 titled vampires. The Lasombra, in > comparison have 2 cardinals and 4 Archbishops. grr... 3 Archbishops... Lucita (A) is called an Archbishop by ELDB, even if she doesn't have an innate title. Derek

>The Brujah Antitribu receive 7 new vampires. Of particular note are Wah >Chun-Yuen, who will complement the Euro-Brujah with his POT cel and dom >at 5 capacity, Henry Taylor, who can recycle combat cards and Miguel >Santo Domingo, who's ability to grant bleed bonuses to minions is likely >to cause decks based around him. Their new library card is Vendetta, a >marvellous card that allows !Brujah to rush vampires who have bled their >Methuselah (for more than 2) with +1 strength. Bleed decks beware! Actually !Brujah only get 6 new vampires, not 7. Sela's also cool - 7-cap Archbishop anyone? >The !Gangrel gain members of their city and urban bloodline. Jalan is >impressive, being Karsh's slightly younger and almost as dangerous >brother. Their card, Talons of the Dead, is effective, but costly, and >by default makes it more difficult to do the kinds of things that >!Gangrel want to do. The ability to burn it is nice, but for the 2 pool >invested it doesn't seem worth it. Sebastian Goulet Advanced is pretty good. When Merged, he's *really* good, being able to steal retainers and allies as a +1 stealth action! Um...Jesus Alcala has a really cool sombrero too! =P Also Country !Gangrel and conventional Gangrel get an anti-IG, anti-Thoughts Betrayed S:CE in the form of Alpha Glint. Trainer is a nice card which hoses other Animalism decks. >The Lasombra have 3 Black Hand vampires in their ranks, including a 5 >capacity Seraph with DOM. In addition, Nahir's special ability stands >to make that vampire an interesting centrepiece for deck construction. >San Nicolas is a wonderful new card that makes rushing Lasombra quite >the invest at 1 pool per attempt. Obtenebration also receives Tenebrous >Form, a relatively mundane stealth card. As mentioned before, San Nicolas first appeared in Sabbat War. The new Lasombra clan card is Abyssal Hunter. >The !Malkavians do alright. Midget is a machine for evil stealth >bleeders. Even if he is Infernal he seems quite worth the cost >considering how quickly he can do massive pool loss. Sibyl's tongue >seems to carry with it great potential, and in combination with >necromancy could keep the cost of playing it exceptionally low. Actually I think the !Malks come out remarkably well. Midget is extremely strong, as is Aristotle. They really win in terms of library cards though. As you mention, Sibyl's Tongue is like a silver bullet. Babble has a great deal of potential. Plus !Malks enjoy many multi-discipline cards like Random Patterns and Masque of Judas. >The !Nosferatu also receive more quality vampires. Mateusz joins Laz in >the +2 strength club, with his disciplines at SUP for 8 capacity. >Teresita the Godmother is a well costed Seraph with all 3 at SUP and >for. Yong Sung (A) might be a vampire to make a deck around, and I >consider him to be the best (as of yet) printed Merged version. The >info network gives them permacept for cheap, which really instills the >flavour of the Nosferatu clan. Agreed. >The Pander get a small offering, with Alfred (A) and Olga. As previuosly mentioned, Alfred Adv appeared in Anarchs, not Black Hand. >The !Toreador get one amazing vampire. Yitzak fits my celeriturgy deck >like an old comfy glove. Combine that with his built in Mind Numb and >he is a wonderful machine. Patronage gives the !Toreador the ability to >untap more, but at the cost of one pool is quite expensive. Yitzhak is awesome. Advanced Jessica is pretty good too. And so is Venere Carboni. Under the Skin is a great card for them as well. Patronage appeared in Sabbat War. The new !Toreador card is Foundation Exhibit, which has a lot of potential in Embrace decks. >The !Tremere make a comeback with Ian in the Starter. Selena is also a >solid addition to the !Tremere family, though Goratrix (A) is a one man >clan destroying beast. Recure the homeland is an effective card, though >when compared to Rapid Healing and Chantry seems a little lacking. >Regardless, it's a way to get out of torpor cheaply, and thus will be of >some value. !Tremere get some solid vampires like Selena and Yasmin. Marino is another Archbishop and has NEC. Terrell is great for Cryptic decks. Ember's a let down. And I don't see what all the hype is about Advanced Goratrix - kinda sucks. Recure of the Homeland is actually a great card. Compared to Rapid Healing for example, it has a Clan Requirement instead of a discipline requirement (meaning even lowly Heinrick Schlempt can use it). There is no superior to the card but Recure can be used *by a tapped vampire*, which is really helpful. Chantry is really cool too but Recure is just a different style I guess. Chantry is only usable once a turn while different vamps can use Recure during the same turn. Also, you have to hope your vamp is still in play to use Chantry. If you got torporized while acting, you can still use Recure to get out of torpor. Each has its uses. >As for the !Ventrue, well… I'll be taking a look at them over time. >Suffice to say that their vampires are a major improvement, and Loyalist >is a wonderful anti-vote card. Owain is one of the best vampires from the set period. Advanced Dominique is interesting and helps provide support to !Ventrue Anarch decks. Charice and Blackhorse are solid vamps. Katherine is a bit lacking however. And Loyalist is good anti-vote (just remember you can't use it in a Blood hunt though!). Halcyan 2

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote > > Also Country !Gangrel and conventional Gangrel get an anti-IG, anti-Thoughts > Betrayed S:CE in the form of Alpha Glint. I can't quite see the use for this card. Most of the vampires that can use Alpha Glint have better things to do against IG or Thoughts Betrayed. --Gangrel should be controlling combat, not running away from it. Or at least they should not be *afraid* of combat most of the time. --Ravnos should not be getting into undesired combats in the first place. Illusions of the Kindred is far more versatile and costs only 1 more blood (probably 0, since 9 times out of 10 playing with the Path of Paradox). Other vampires without PRO or CHI still have decent options available from ANI and FOR which they obviously would have. Having other options is always good I suppose, but Alpha Glint just doesn't seem all that fantastic an option to me. > Trainer is a nice card which hoses > other Animalism decks. Great if you know that your ANI-based deck is going to face another ANI-based deck that uses retainers. But how often does this happen? When was the last time you used Shepherd's Innocence? Making an opponent pay 1 blood to use ANI combat cards is ok I guess, but if I'm playing ANI myself, I can think of better ways to deal with it than making my vampire a Trainer. Even when "hoser" cards are good hosers, they're depending on opponents bringing the thing you're trying to hose. It's generally not worth the guessing game when you pretty much *know* that a Carrion Crows or Drawing out the Beast is going to come in handy. > The new Lasombra > clan card is Abyssal Hunter. This one I really like. Just bought my 7th copy on Ebay... should be enough for a decent deck. > Actually I think the !Malks come out remarkably well. Midget is extremely > strong, as is Aristotle. Sorry, but I can't see it. Like most infernals, Midget's cost is prohibitive and deceptive. He may cost 3 initially, but without a Path of ER in play he's going to quickly become too expensive. And what do you really get for a 3 pool investment? Superior DEM and inferior OBF from the in-clans, which is good for 3 pool I suppose. Inferior OBF and PRE might help a Baali deck (esp with Path of ER in play). But I could buy Persia for 2 more pool and not have to worry about infernal costs and get a much better special than Midget's. I would say that unless you are putting Midget in a Baali deck or intend to use him only once or twice, he's just not that great. > They really win in terms of library cards though. As > you mention, Sibyl's Tongue is like a silver bullet. Suddenly I own a lot more Derange and Lunatic Eruption... sort of :) > Recure of the Homeland is actually a great card. Compared to Rapid Healing for > example, it has a Clan Requirement instead of a discipline requirement (meaning > even lowly Heinrick Schlempt can use it). There is no superior to the card but > Recure can be used *by a tapped vampire*, which is really helpful. Best used with Seduction I think, just to be safe. Still makes me nervous, considering how easy it would be to get blocked. > Chantry is > really cool too but Recure is just a different style I guess. Chantry is only > usable once a turn while different vamps can use Recure during the same turn. Probably helpful for mixing the two clans, which of course is often the case. > Also, you have to hope your vamp is still in play to use Chantry. If you got > torporized while acting, you can still use Recure to get out of torpor. Each > has its uses. Burst of Sunlight seems a lot more useful with this card. > And Loyalist is > good anti-vote (just remember you can't use it in a Blood hunt though!). A little too corner-case and reactive for my tastes. I'd also rather use some of the existing !Ventrue anti-vote cards which are more versatile. Every little bit helps though... Cheers, WES

<snip stuff> > > > the !Ventrue aren't > > > nearly as strong as other voting clans on titles. > > By all rights, they should be one of the strongest. > > > > <snip argument that I agree with> > > You're right about all of that, but note I said as strong as other voting > clans on _titles_. Their lowest available innate title for the !Ventrue is > at 8 capacity. They have only 3 titled vampires. Nope. They have at least 4 - Lazvernius, Kyle , Quentin, and Gustav. Joseph o'Grady also has a built in vote. Only the !Gangrel has a crappier selection of titles. <snippage> Dave

"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> > > Actually I think the !Malks come out remarkably well. Midget is > extremely > > strong, as is Aristotle. > > Sorry, but I can't see it. Like most infernals, Midget's cost is > prohibitive and deceptive. He may cost 3 initially, but without a Path > of ER in play he's going to quickly become too expensive. > > And what do you really get for a 3 pool investment? Superior DEM and > inferior OBF from the in-clans, which is good for 3 pool I suppose. > Inferior OBF and PRE might help a Baali deck (esp with Path of ER in > play). But I could buy Persia for 2 more pool and not have to worry > about infernal costs and get a much better special than Midget's. > > I would say that unless you are putting Midget in a Baali deck or intend > to use him only once or twice, he's just not that great. > > > They really win in terms of library cards though. As > > you mention, Sibyl's Tongue is like a silver bullet. Midget can bleed for 4 on second round, and as long he is bleeding with every round with Kindred Spirits (which he should) he won't cost more than Yorik (w/o DEM discipline card). And animal retainers are not that uncommon. And if he happens to burn, you will not cry after him. BTW, infernal trait seems to be worth of at least 2.5 points in the case of Midget. I wonder what it should be officially. And Sibyl's Tongue will so be going to Harbinger/!Malkavian deck. -Antero

"AL" <nom...@jippii.fi> wrote > > Midget can bleed for 4 on second round, Yes, but so can many weenie vampire with equivalent discipline spreads. Samson can bleed for 6 on the second round with Govern the Unaligned, Command of the Beast and Conditioning, for an investment of only 2 pool. > and as long he is bleeding > with every round with Kindred Spirits (which he should) he won't cost > more than Yorik (w/o DEM discipline card). This same argument has been used for the Baali in general (using Social Charm or Legal Manipulations). If you're off-setting the cost of infernalism using these cards or Kindred Spirits, that's great and all. But you could actually make a net profit using someone who was not infernal in the first place. No, I think where Midget fits is in a Baali deck with the Path of ER out. You could even fit a little bit of DEM into a Baali deck to make it more cohesive, perhaps taking advantage of Call the Great Beast's optional disciplines. But if you are not using DEM, I would still wonder how Midget's [obf pre] would be any better than: --Lena Rowe 3 --Hadrian Garrick 4 + useful special --Nepata 4 --Tock 4 > And animal retainers are not that uncommon. No, it's not an absolutely useless special. But I don't believe that it's not worth paying 1 pool per turn for. > And if he happens to burn, you will not cry after him. This is true I guess. Probably not a sign of a good deck though ;) I suppose there could be ways of using him in such a manner that you don't need to worry about his infernal costs. Perhaps give him fortitude, use Force of Will to burn him and then resurrect him again or something crazy. But this seems like it would more funny than effective. > And Sibyl's Tongue will so be going to Harbinger/!Malkavian deck. It would make a good bolt-on to any kind of deck I think. The problem is bolting the required !Malks onto another clan. The only clan they really jibe well with are the regular Malkavians, and I'm not sure that too many Malk/!Malk cards are worth using this for (with the notable exception of Derange). There are also better ways to go about this. Various NEC cards, The Sargon Fragment, Carlotta Giovanni and the under-rated Reinforcements... maybe a few more I am forgetting. Cheers, WES

"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message news:br6m2...@enews2.newsguy.com... > > "AL" <nom...@jippii.fi> wrote > > > > Midget can bleed for 4 on second round, > > Yes, but so can many weenie vampire with equivalent discipline spreads. > Samson can bleed for 6 on the second round with Govern the Unaligned, > Command of the Beast and Conditioning, for an investment of only 2 pool. Samson max's out at 5 without superior DOM the command the beast cannot be played with the conditioning. Of course with a skill card he hits a lovely 7 -JTP

"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message news:<br6m2...@enews2.newsguy.com>... snip Have you ever thought of the possibility of _adding_ him to a Malkavian Deck? You know .. you can bring out both Yorik _and_ Midget ... (and all the other boring bleed stealthers).

"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote: > But if you are not using DEM, I would still wonder how Midget's [obf > pre] would be any better than: > --Lena Rowe 3 > --Hadrian Garrick 4 + useful special > --Nepata 4 > --Tock 4 If I am not using DEM, Midget will not be in that deck... > > And animal retainers are not that uncommon. > > No, it's not an absolutely useless special. But I don't believe that > it's not worth paying 1 pool per turn for. I must try him, I just can't believe that 3 cap w/DEM obf could be bad investment (in a right deck). Unfortunately I can't see how he could be useful in a Baali deck :( Only High Priest shares dementation with him, to do what? Lobotomize a Herald of Topheth? (about Sibyl's Tongue) > > It would make a good bolt-on to any kind of deck I think. The problem is > bolting the required !Malks onto another clan. The only clan they really > jibe well with are the regular Malkavians, and I'm not sure that too > many Malk/!Malk cards are worth using this for (with the notable > exception of Derange). Well, I was thinking cards like Brinksmanship, Dia de Los Muertos or some nice Necromancy card. Or odd Lunatic Eruption to keep away Beast who was influenced out by your prey. -Antero

Wes wrote: > No, I think where Midget fits is in a Baali deck with the Path of ER > out. Yeah, you could do that. Or you could, ya know, just use Hadrian Garrick for the obf pre ona small vampire. Even though Hadrian costs 4, you are still saving a lot in the long run. Path of Evil Revelations or not... Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "The gun is good! The penis is bad!" -Zardoz

In message <br6m2...@enews2.newsguy.com>, "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> mumbled something about: >"AL" <nom...@jippii.fi> wrote >> >> And animal retainers are not that uncommon. > >No, it's not an absolutely useless special. But I don't believe that >it's not worth paying 1 pool per turn for. Wes? Raven Spy. -- Derek Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music. It only stopped them hearing the distractions.

"Angus, the Unruled" <athosg...@gmx.at> wrote > > Have you ever thought of the possibility of _adding_ him to a > Malkavian Deck? Sure. I addressed that above. I don't think he's worth it, because of the infernalism. Of course, if you're playing S&B you may be gaining 6 pool every two turns anyway from ousts, so maybe his infernalism isn't such a cost. > You know .. you can bring out both Yorik _and_ Midget ... (and all the > other boring bleed stealthers). *shrug* Maybe. But it seems to me that there are better options than using Midget. And also, a confession --> I never play Malkavian or !Malkavian S&B decks. So I may not be qualified to have an opinion on this. Cheers, WES

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote > > Wes? Raven Spy. Sure... I'm usually more concerned with Owl Companion to tell the truth. Unless Monger is not showing them all properly, there appear to be only 7 animal retainers in the entire game. 1. Dog Pack (Gangrel) 2. Jackal (ANI, useless) 3. Murder of Crows (ANI, scary in numbers) 4. Owl Companion (ANI, definitely annoying) 5. Raptor (ANI, scary in numbers) 6. Raven Spy (ANI, commonly used) 7. Wolf Companion (ANI, rarely used) How many games will you see these in? Enough to make it worth it? Maybe. Maybe not. And if you're not seeing them, then Midget's ability is useless. I concede that you are probably more likely to see say Raven Spy than many other cards in the game though. As I said, it's not a horrible special. It's just not that fantastic IMHO. Around here, it's usually *me* that plays with ANI retainers (at least #3, #4 and #6) so I might be biased. So if you people ever play against me, leave your Midgets at home ok? Besides, he's really ugly. You don't want to play with ugly vampires, do you? Use Patrizia Giovanni instead... she's purty. Cheers, WES

"AL" <nom...@jippii.fi> wrote > > If I am not using DEM, Midget will not be in that deck... Well, if you have a Path of ER out, his infernalism cost becomes less troublesome. So, assuming you are playing Baali and Midget (just assume :) then what you are really getting is a vampire with [obf pre + marginal special] for 3 pool plus the reduced infernal cost, which I think is ok. You're still paying 1 pool to untap all infernals, but the cost is more manageable. And you could even throw in some DEM/!Malk cards just for Midget. You could use Kindred Spirits with him just to pay for the Path costs and do other nasty stuff with your other Baali. Might work? > I must try him, I just can't believe that 3 cap w/DEM obf could be bad > investment (in a right deck). Unfortunately I can't see how he could > be useful in a Baali deck :( Only High Priest shares dementation with > him, to do what? Lobotomize a Herald of Topheth? Lobotomy is a VIC card, so that might get a little more messy :) I don't know really. It seems to me that Derange comlements the Baali somewhat. If everyone else is paying blood or pool to untap at the same time you are, it puts you at a slight advantage, since your deck is obviously *prepared* for it (or, as prepared as any Baali deck can be). Is there a deck in this? Couldn't tell you... maybe. > (about Sibyl's Tongue) > > > Well, I was thinking cards like Brinksmanship, Dia de Los Muertos or > some nice Necromancy card. Or odd Lunatic Eruption to keep away Beast > who was influenced out by your prey. Lunatic Eruption seems like a good plan. In fact, if you're playing a toolboxy deck, you can just Tongue out the ones that will help you best at any point in the game. More than 2 Tongues is probably going to start to be prohibitive though I suspect. Unless you start pulling them back out of your ash heap somehow. Using titled Malks/!Malks with Reinforcements might work, but that seems like too many moving parts to me. You know, it's nice to discuss card mechanics and deckbuilding strategy on rgtcj... I miss this kind of thing :) Cheers, WES

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote > > > No, I think where Midget fits is in a Baali deck with the Path of ER > > out. > > Yeah, you could do that. Or you could, ya know, just use Hadrian Garrick for > the obf pre ona small vampire. Even though Hadrian costs 4, you are still > saving a lot in the long run. Path of Evil Revelations or not... I'm assuming that you would be using Midget *and* Hadrian and maybe also the other weenie [obf pre] vampires, all of which I mentioned elsewhere in this thread. Perhaps with Cloak the Gathering as your main stealth engine. If you are already using Baali *and* you are using Path of ER (which I assume will become the norm) then it's not really much more of an investment to also use Midget. I would just worry about the Path being burned a lot (which I also assume will become the norm). I do agree that Hadrian is superior to Midget in that kind of deck though. Cheers, WES

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 01:34:59 -0500, "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> scrawled: >> I must try him, I just can't believe that 3 cap w/DEM obf could be bad >> investment (in a right deck). Unfortunately I can't see how he could >> be useful in a Baali deck :( Only High Priest shares dementation with >> him, to do what? Lobotomize a Herald of Topheth? > >Lobotomy is a VIC card, so that might get a little more messy :) > >I don't know really. It seems to me that Derange comlements the Baali >somewhat. If everyone else is paying blood or pool to untap at the same >time you are, it puts you at a slight advantage, since your deck is >obviously *prepared* for it (or, as prepared as any Baali deck can be). > >Is there a deck in this? Couldn't tell you... maybe. wellllllll......Derange is now a malk/!malk card that you put on a younger vampire. so....might be a deck in it. I doubt it's Baali+Midget, though. (interesting side note: i didn't get Derange when filtering in ELDB3 for malk or !malk...) you could inferior Restructure opponent's allies, making them kinda infernal.... You might be able to get some sort of synergy going with Total Insanity and Condemnation: Doomed. and the Haunting (to make sure they have to take actions)..... >You know, it's nice to discuss card mechanics and deckbuilding strategy >on rgtcj... I miss this kind of thing :) it is somewhat refreshing, eh? salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

"salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote > > > >I don't know really. It seems to me that Derange comlements the Baali > >somewhat. If everyone else is paying blood or pool to untap at the same > >time you are, it puts you at a slight advantage, since your deck is > >obviously *prepared* for it (or, as prepared as any Baali deck can be). > > > >Is there a deck in this? Couldn't tell you... maybe. > > wellllllll......Derange is now a malk/!malk card that you put on a > younger vampire. Ahh pardon me then, I hadn't noticed the change to *younger vampire*. That won't help Midget much I suppose. > you could inferior Restructure opponent's allies, making them kinda > infernal.... Assuming they even use allies. But since we're talking about Midget, I'd really rather use Restructure at superior to steal their allies. Or not use Midget at all :) > You might be able to get some sort of synergy going with Total > Insanity and Condemnation: Doomed. and the Haunting (to make sure they > have to take actions)..... Do you get the feeling that by the time all of this is set up and ready to go, you've been ousted already? :) It's a shame that "moving parts" make decks interesting and fun... but also makes them vulnerable to decks with focus. No way around this really... > >You know, it's nice to discuss card mechanics and deckbuilding strategy > >on rgtcj... I miss this kind of thing :) > > it is somewhat refreshing, eh? Amen. Cheers, WES

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Wes wrote: > If you are already using Baali *and* you are using Path of ER (which I > assume will become the norm) then it's not really much more of an > investment to also use Midget. I would just worry about the Path being > burned a lot (which I also assume will become the norm). I'm confident it'll get burned if it shows up (unless everybody lacks stealth and dies to Conflagrations - likely?), but I don't know if the Path will go in every Baali deck. Would you remove a Blood Doll for one? Maybe. A Giant's Blood? Doubtful. Baali decks tend to be tight and squeezing in another 3-4 masters is no easy task. I think the Path is interesting, but since it needs to be defended, it probably isn't right in every Baali deck unless you play in Australia where they don't burn paths. :) But since we're talking about Midget, Baali and infernalism in a thread that's supposed to be about !Ventrue, I have thought of something really worthwhile Midget could bring to the Baali: Sibyl's Tongue. Put a few prayer cards in your deck. Midget can go fishing for them when they're needed and if they're just not needed, Giotto's special will make sure they don't sit in your hand. Might be good for some kind of toolbox or trick deck. Or you could just use Yorik again. Sigh. Matt Morgan Midget, fetch another Path. This one's broken!

"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote: > "AL" <nom...@jippii.fi> wrote > > You're still paying 1 pool to untap all infernals, but the cost is more > manageable. And you could even throw in some DEM/!Malk cards just for > Midget. You could use Kindred Spirits with him just to pay for the Path > costs and do other nasty stuff with your other Baali. Might work? I have been thinking it. Possible crypt choices: Kite, Idalia, High Priest A.M., Giotto and Midget. Come to think of it, even Aristotle de Laurent could fit in (AUS DEM OBF PRE, and pot for outferior Conflagarations, not to mention the inherent +1 stealth. Into the Fire, Baali!) > > > I must try him, I just can't believe that 3 cap w/DEM obf could be bad > > investment (in a right deck). Unfortunately I can't see how he could > > be useful in a Baali deck :( Only High Priest shares dementation with > > him, to do what? Lobotomize a Herald of Topheth? > > Lobotomy is a VIC card, so that might get a little more messy :) Umm...the brains worked out Restructure and Lobotomy together. They might need some electricity... > Lunatic Eruption seems like a good plan. In fact, if you're playing a > toolboxy deck, you can just Tongue out the ones that will help you best > at any point in the game. More than 2 Tongues is probably going to start > to be prohibitive though I suspect. Unless you start pulling them back > out of your ash heap somehow. Using titled Malks/!Malks with > Reinforcements might work, but that seems like too many moving parts to > me. > I had an Artemis/Theron/Gisela deck, using aus/dem/for/obf, and some nec tricks to fish cards back. Fun to play, but not too effective. I think that ST will improve it. -Antero

"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message news:<br92d...@enews4.newsguy.com>... > "Angus, the Unruled" <athosg...@gmx.at> wrote > > > > Have you ever thought of the possibility of _adding_ him to a > > Malkavian Deck? > > Sure. I addressed that above. I don't think he's worth it, because of > the infernalism. Of course, if you're playing S&B you may be gaining 6 > pool every two turns anyway from ousts, so maybe his infernalism isn't > such a cost. Is there anything else 99% of all Malkavian Decks are doing? We are talking about fast S&B decks (at least i thought so). > > > You know .. you can bring out both Yorik _and_ Midget ... (and all the > > other boring bleed stealthers). > > *shrug* > > Maybe. But it seems to me that there are better options than using > Midget. He's another low cap with sup. Dementation. More Crypt-variety is always good. > > And also, a confession --> I never play Malkavian or !Malkavian S&B > decks. So I may not be qualified to have an opinion on this. Last time i played S&B was some years ago too. But they have been my opponents often enough that i know how they work nevertheless.

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 07:52:45 -0600, "Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@io.com> scrawled: [path of evil revelations] >I think the Path is interesting, but since it needs to be defended, it >probably isn't right in every Baali deck unless you play in Australia >where they don't burn paths. :) oi! i resent that! that's just Melbourne. Us Canberra people know to take down paths, and i think sydney people do it a bit too....and the newcastle people probably hate Roger's Sense dep deck enough to burn paths up there, too. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@io.com> wrote > > But since we're talking about Midget, Baali and infernalism in a thread > that's supposed to be about !Ventrue, Hey, you're right! How did that happen? May as well change the subject then... > I have thought of something really > worthwhile Midget could bring to the Baali: Sibyl's Tongue. Put a few > prayer cards in your deck. Midget can go fishing for them when they're > needed and if they're just not needed, Giotto's special will make sure > they don't sit in your hand. Might be good for some kind of toolbox or > trick deck. Or you could just use Yorik again. Sigh. Yeah, Sibyl's Tongue adds a nice toolboxy bolt-on to any deck I think. In fact, I like this a lot since it gives us more things to do with !Malks, who are traditionally used mostly for S&B, as Angus mentions elsewhere. I'm all for giving them *other* things to do. ST could conceivably be used to fuel a S&B deck also, of course, more's the pity. Most of the cards in a typical S&B deck are probably not worth fishing for, but it would certainly help if you're jamming up on OBF stealth cards and need to fish for a Kindred Spirits. But it'd probably be just as easy to leave the ST out altogether and just use a Dreams of the Sphinx or Barrens to cycle. The other thing that I like about Sibyl's Tongue is that its geometrically increasing cost can be negated by fishing the STs out of your ash heap. It seems a bit wonky to add NEC or something similar to a deck based around !Malks, but there could be something in it. Perhaps make the first card you dig for using ST be the Sargon Fragment. Equip that on one of your vampires, giving them both [NEC] and a special that more or less reduces the cost of playing ST. Then use a combination of Sibyl's Tongue and Sargon Fragment to give yourself exactly what you need from either the library or the ash-heap. Hell, you'd have easy access to *everything* in your deck! Giovanni, eat your hearts out. I also had an elaborate idea of making Qadir (the Assamite with nec) into a !Malkavian... but that, like all of my recent deck ideas, kinda sucks. I would love to use him for something though. His special *seems* like it would be useful. Oh well... Cheers, WES

"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote: > "Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@io.com> wrote > > > > But since we're talking about Midget, Baali and infernalism in a > thread > > that's supposed to be about !Ventrue, > > Hey, you're right! How did that happen? I confess! It happened like this: The BH vampires were featured by clan and there was talking of !Malkavians, and as much I hate to say, I sometimes enjoy playing balls-to-the-wall S+B deck and if somebody from another side of the table gets aggressive, well, bleed him for four also. Or my predator. And I have been thinking how to best use Midget and is he worth his infernal cost. I think yes (as I said in the former thread) at least in a right deck. > > Perhaps make the first card you dig for using ST be the Sargon Fragment. > Equip that on one of your vampires, giving them both [NEC] and a special > that more or less reduces the cost of playing ST. Then use a combination > of Sibyl's Tongue and Sargon Fragment to give yourself exactly what you > need from either the library or the ash-heap. Hell, you'd have easy > access to *everything* in your deck! Giovanni, eat your hearts out. I wonder why WW decided to give !Malkavians such an option. Why not Lasombra instead, getting, like, Shadow Tongue, or Tzimisce getting..ummm...better not to think that too much. Is there something in RPG concerning !Malks that is similar to ST? -Antero

AL wrote: > I wonder why WW decided to give !Malkavians such an option. Why not > Lasombra instead, getting, like, Shadow Tongue, or Tzimisce > getting..ummm...better not to think that too much. Is there something > in RPG concerning !Malks that is similar to [Sibyl's Tongue]? Just the power (Auspex Six) of the same name that Malkavians have developed. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/