Singing in the rain OR how long does it take to tap? (LSJ)

Is there any kind of time delay when a card taps or is it an instant occurence?

Blooded Sand wrote: > Is there any kind of time delay when a card taps or is it an instant > occurence? A card taps when it taps. What's the issue?

[ quoted text not captured ] I need a specifc clarified answer here, sorry. Does tapping take any time, or is it an instant occurence?

On Aug 25, 10:34 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] I need a specifc clarified answer here, sorry. Does tapping take any time, or is it an instant occurence?

In message <1188074206.2...@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Blooded Sand <sand...@gmail.com> writes: >I need a specifc clarified answer here, sorry. Does tapping take any >time, or is it an instant occurence? Your question doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Why not explain why the answer is relevant? -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

On Aug 25, 11:17 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > In message <1188074206.248471.159...@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > > Blooded Sand <sandm...@gmail.com> writes: > >I need a specifc clarified answer here, sorry. Does tapping take any > >time, or is it an instant occurence? > > Your question doesn't make a whole lot of sense. > > Why not explain why the answer is relevant? > > -- > James Coupe > PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. > EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. > 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION. What is not making sense here? The question is simple. When a card is tapped, does it take a non negligible amount of time, or is it instant? For example, I decide to tap Dreams of the Sphinx for an extra 2 hand size. Does the tap of the card occur instantly?

In message <1188077081.0...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, Blooded Sand <sand...@gmail.com> writes: >What is not making sense here? The question is simple. When a card is >tapped, does it take a non negligible amount of time, or is it >instant? Why does it matter? If what you're trying to ask in a roundabout way is "Can I shove something else in there while it's happening?", the answer is no. You set up an effect, and resolve it fully. Then the next player with the impulse has a chance to use an effect. So it doesn't actually matter if it happens immediately or takes some time. It happens when it happens. >For example, I decide to tap Dreams of the Sphinx for an >extra 2 hand size. Does the tap of the card occur instantly? Again, why does this matter? You appear to be trying to ask a different question without actually asking it. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] The card taps when it taps. It takes as long as it takes to tap the card.

[ quoted text not captured ] I think what he's trying to ask, in a very weird way, is: "is there a window between announcing to tap and actually tapping". And of course there isn't. Don't see why it would matter either.

In article <1188077081.0...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, Blooded Sand <sand...@gmail.com> wrote: > What is not making sense here? The question is simple. When a card is > tapped, does it take a non negligible amount of time, or is it > instant? For example, I decide to tap Dreams of the Sphinx for an > extra 2 hand size. Does the tap of the card occur instantly? I think what isn't making sense is that folks are trying to figure out what you are specifically trying to figure out. Presumably, you are trying to figure out if Player A can do something between when Player B announces tapping a card for an effect and when the card is tapped and the effect occurs. But as the timing in VTES doesn't actually work like that ever, the answer is no, player A can't do something between when player B announces tapping a card and the card tapping and the effect taking place. But again, what folks are likely trying to figure out is what specific instance you are envisioning, as really, I don't think there is anwhere it makes a difference. Care to expound? Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html "Find hungry samurai." -The Old Man

"Blooded Sand" <sand...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1188074203.5...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Please, by all means, take this with a grain of salt. But C'mon! I also used to live under bridges, demanding tolls, or answers to my questions three. Thinking how clever I would be by using the rulebook to break the game or to prove others wrong. Obfuscation here serves no yousefool porpoise. I found it better to just be honest and use common sense. And Play. The. Game. -- -UniqueMaster ; )

In message <4pidne4QkLqgsEzb...@texas.net>, UniqueMaster <crap...@what.what> writes: >Obfuscation here serves no yousefool porpoise. In particular, it can make it nigh impossible for people to find the ruling in the future when they need it for a real situation, because it doesn't include many of the search terms they'd use when asking it in a non-obfuscated fashion. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Aug 26, 9:52 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > In message <4pidne4QkLqgsEzbnZ2dnUVZ_qOkn...@texas.net>, UniqueMaster > > <crappa...@what.what> writes: > >Obfuscation here serves no yousefool porpoise. > > In particular, it can make it nigh impossible for people to find the > ruling in the future when they need it for a real situation, because it > doesn't include many of the search terms they'd use when asking it in a > non-obfuscated fashion. > > -- > James Coupe > PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. > EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. > 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION. My logic here is very straightforward really. in Thread http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/f33464ed95f47abc/# LSJ states that there are 2 distinct parts to the influence phase. Paulo's effect triggers when he comes in to play during the influence phase, which has been stated to be part of the influence phase. So if there is a sufficiently large window of time for his effect to trigger during the end of the influence phase , how is there not enough time for Angela to tap, as this does not take any time? Either his ability occurs during the influence phase, and there is thus time to tap, or it happens at the end of the influence phase. If the end of the influence phase means during but at the end, then it is still during when he actively enters the ready region, and if he triggers, then under the same timing response there should be time for Angela to be tapped. Me very confused by now.....

In message <1188116733.7...@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Blooded Sand <sand...@gmail.com> writes: >On Aug 26, 9:52 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >> In message <4pidne4QkLqgsEzbnZ2dnUVZ_qOkn...@texas.net>, UniqueMaster >> >> <crappa...@what.what> writes: >> >Obfuscation here serves no yousefool porpoise. >> >> In particular, it can make it nigh impossible for people to find the >> ruling in the future when they need it for a real situation, because it >> doesn't include many of the search terms they'd use when asking it in a Note also that this particular brand of obfuscation means that people using Google's archive in the future will find discussion broken over two threads, for the obligatory no good reason. Usenet is a threaded medium, and keeping the same topic in the same thread is very helpful! >My logic here is very straightforward really. Then why not just state it directly from the outset, rather than dancing around trying to trap people into an answer? On the one hand, you can have a useful discussion where people know what you're trying to ask. On the other hand, you can have some obfuscated nonsense where you try to eke out an answer that you think means what you want it to mean. The first option is swift, productive, useful, helpful. The second isn't. Please, try to be productive, useful and helpful. >LSJ states that there are 2 distinct parts to the influence phase. Correct. There's "Everything else" and "Bringing out vampires." The untap phase is handled in much the same way. There's "Untapping all cards" and then "Everything else", pretty much. Whether tapping or untapping takes any time is irrelevant. The first thing that happens is *always* untapping. You'd need card text to break that. So you can't sneakily tap something that needs to be tapped during your turn, then untap it (using the normal untap phase untap), then do it again, or something. >Paulo's effect triggers when he comes in to play during the influence >phase, which has been stated to be part of the influence phase. It is, yes. However, his card text requires it to trigger then. So it does, because card text can overturn the standard rules. Which his does. Other card text that just says "During the untap phase" doesn't overturn the standard ordering. So it doesn't. > So if >there is a sufficiently large window of time for his effect to trigger >during the end of the influence phase , how is there not enough time >for Angela to tap, as this does not take any time? It's not about the amount of time. Card text can create its own timing phase, following the Golden Rule of Cards. e.g. see Immortal Grapple. But card text that doesn't create its own timing phase, uh, doesn't create a timing phase. So you just follow the normal order. >Me very confused by now..... This is why you should just ask the question you really want the answer to. With respect, your grasp of the finer points of the rules is sometimes somewhat shaky, as demonstrated right here. Attempting to elicit answers through illogical trickery helps no-one. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Aug 26, 11:15 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > In message <1188116733.786948.313...@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] Not quite sure where the whole untap phase comes into the discussion thouh? The question is why is there a space for Paulo's ability to trigger, as it happens at the end of the influence phase, but not for Angela? What exactly does this have to do, at all, with the untap phase?

[ quoted text not captured ] >From the rulebook: 4. Untap Phase You start your turn with your untap phase. At the beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your cards (except your infernal cards, see section 11). Any cards or effects that require or allow you to do something during your untap phase take effect after you have untapped your cards. You may choose the order in which these effects take place. >snip< And 7. Influence Phase >snip< At the end of your influence phase, any vampire in your uncontrolled region with a number of blood counters on him equal to (or more than) his capacity becomes controlled. The vampire is turned face up and moved to the ready region, untapped. The counters are kept on him to represent his blood (counters in excess of his capacity drain off immediately as usual). ***** The mechanics parallel in that each has a mandatory function. The Utap Phase requires that you untap all of your cards and THEN handle other untap phase business. The Influence phase requires that you handle your Influence Phase business and THEN move vampires to the controlled region if applicable. Paulo's ability checks for when he is moved, and so triggers at that time.

[ quoted text not captured ] My point being that either Paulo is moved inside (during) the influence phase, or he is not. If he is, then there is a period where he can be tapped. For example, could I tap dreams of the sphinx during the end of my influence phase?

Blooded Sand wrote: > LSJ states that there are 2 distinct parts to the influence phase. Correct, there are. > Paulo's effect triggers when he comes in to play during the influence > phase, which has been stated to be part of the influence phase. So if Each of the two parts of the influence phase is part of the influence phase, yes. > there is a sufficiently large window of time for his effect to trigger > during the end of the influence phase , how is there not enough time > for Angela to tap, as this does not take any time? His effect is triggered explicitly on being brought into play (the second part), so that is when it triggers. Angela's ability does not explicitly nor inherently indicate "second part" timing, so its timing window is the first part (the default). There would be time for her ability to be used, if it were allowed in the second part window. But it is not -- it is a first part effect (like using transfers is a first part effect). > Either his ability occurs during the influence phase, and there is > thus time to tap, or it happens at the end of the influence phase. If It occurs during the second part of the influence phase. > the end of the influence phase means during but at the end, then it is > still during when he actively enters the ready region, and if he > triggers, then under the same timing response there should be time for > Angela to be tapped. Except that her ability is a "first part" ability. Paulo's is a "second part" ability.

Blooded Sand wrote: > My point being that either Paulo is moved inside (during) the > influence phase, or he is not. If he is, then there is a period where > he can be tapped. For example, could I tap dreams of the sphinx during > the end of my influence phase? No. Nor could you tap it during your untap phase but before untapping all your cards. The only thing that happens at the end of your influence phase is bringing out the minions in your uncontrolled region that have sufficient influence on them (and effects which trigger on that, like Paulo's). Just like the only thing that happens at the start of your untap phase is untapping all your cards (and effects which trigger on that, like The Treatment).

[ quoted text not captured ] OK!!!!! So the differentiation is that the first part is all non mandatory effects, and the second is triggered effects only? It's just that this is stated nowhere in the rules, thus is far too open to interpretation. Maybe the relevant rules section could be fleshed out?

[ quoted text not captured ] Of course. This came up for the first time at the EC 2007. I've had some time since then (not much, but a little) to firm up the concepts and check to see that they're coherent. So, naturally, card text and rules text should be more coherent on this point as well (more and more as time goes on).

[ quoted text not captured ] Cool! No worries then It was just that as the rules were currently stated, there was a logic gap between Angela and Paulo, but the explanation above makes it much clearer. PS your sometimes a bit tough to follow..... :)