Should trophies all be trifles?

MPAs are scarce in a trophy deck and the whole mechanic is pretty weak. It would be a pretty easy errata to do. What do you all think? Brandon

On Oct 4, 1:27 pm, brandonsantacruz <brandonsantac...@yahoo.com> wrote: > MPAs are scarce in a trophy deck and the whole mechanic is pretty > weak. It would be a pretty easy errata to do. What do you all think? > > Brandon Nope, their good the way they are. Trophies are not the win condition, minion removal is, their like a Graverobbing or 2 in another combat deck, their just some extra tech to help you over the top.

On Oct 4, 11:57 am, Pullen <mattp3...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Oct 4, 1:27 pm, brandonsantacruz <brandonsantac...@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > MPAs are scarce in a trophy deck and the whole mechanic is pretty > > weak. It would be a pretty easy errata to do. What do you all think? > > > Brandon > > Nope, their good the way they are. Trophies are not the win condition, > minion removal is, their like a Graverobbing or 2 in another combat > deck, their just some extra tech to help you over the top. A Graverobbing module requires two or three cards, all of which are the same. A trophy module usually requires at least six or seven. That's dissimilar enough to make the comparison problematic. That said, I don't know that I'd make trophies trifles. You know that Trophy: Progeny deck in the TWDA? Can you imagine how much more effective it would be if the Methuselah playing it had received an extra MPA each turn? Terrifying.

On Oct 4, 10:27 am, brandonsantacruz <brandonsantac...@yahoo.com> wrote: > MPAs are scarce in a trophy deck and the whole mechanic is pretty > weak. It would be a pretty easy errata to do. What do you all think? > > Brandon I would be happy if there were a rule like this: If you have a Trophy in play, your vampires may enter combat with Red List minions as 1s (D) actions that cost 1 blood. This allows you to get around spending an additional MPA to Red List mark every turn. And, it doesn't make the Red List trait much worse because only Trophy Hunter decks will benefit. I'd also like this rule: Any vampire with a Trophy may enter combat with a Red List minion as a 1s (D) action. So you got your first trophy and the next one is just a little easier to come by since you don't have to spend blood. If you get some other benefit, like Trophy: Progeny which just goes in play, then you don't get the benefit. Jeff

On Oct 4, 10:15 pm, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 4, 10:27 am, brandonsantacruz <brandonsantac...@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > MPAs are scarce in a trophy deck and the whole mechanic is pretty > > weak. It would be a pretty easy errata to do. What do you all think? > > > Brandon > > I would be happy if there were a rule like this: > > If you have a Trophy in play, your vampires may enter combat with Red > List minions as 1s (D) actions that cost 1 blood. > > This allows you to get around spending an additional MPA to Red List > mark every turn. And, it doesn't make the Red List trait much worse > because only Trophy Hunter decks will benefit. > > I'd also like this rule: > > Any vampire with a Trophy may enter combat with a Red List minion as a > 1s (D) action. > > So you got your first trophy and the next one is just a little easier > to come by since you don't have to spend blood. If you get some other > benefit, like Trophy: Progeny which just goes in play, then you don't > get the benefit. > > Jeff This sounds like a great fix to me, and something i have been wanting to have for a while. Trophies are an awesome mechanism, but they are limited due to the very small number of them, and the massive difficulty involved in pulling them off.

On Oct 4, 1:15 pm, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 4, 10:27 am, brandonsantacruz <brandonsantac...@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > MPAs are scarce in a trophy deck and the whole mechanic is pretty > > weak. It would be a pretty easy errata to do. What do you all think? > > > Brandon > > I would be happy if there were a rule like this: > > If you have a Trophy in play, your vampires may enter combat with Red > List minions as 1s (D) actions that cost 1 blood. > > This allows you to get around spending an additional MPA to Red List > mark every turn. And, it doesn't make the Red List trait much worse > because only Trophy Hunter decks will benefit. > > I'd also like this rule: > > Any vampire with a Trophy may enter combat with a Red List minion as a > 1s (D) action. > > So you got your first trophy and the next one is just a little easier > to come by since you don't have to spend blood. If you get some other > benefit, like Trophy: Progeny which just goes in play, then you don't > get the benefit. > > Jeff I'd rather just that Red List, Trophy, and anything that key off of them were eliminated from the game as being mechanics that add complexity far in excess of value. Since that isn't going to happen, nor I'm sure would be the far better elimination of Scarce from the game, or any other mechanics purging that would scale back the complexity while having virtually no impact on play, I'd just let people continue to try to innovate to get the mechanic to work as written (or be used as a fake out in a stealth bleed deck, or whatever). If the game ever expands again, rather than rewrite the rules, could just create new vampires with Trophy-related specials or have cards like: Gloryhound Master. Archetype. Trifle. When this vampire gains a Trophy, the vampire gains a Winner Token and you may search your library, hand, and/or ash heap for a Master: Trophy card and put that card into play. For each Winner Token a minion has, the minion has +1 bleed. A vampire can have only one archetype.

Jeff Kuta <jeff.kuta@gmail.com> wrote: >I would be happy if there were a rule like this: > >If you have a Trophy in play, your vampires may enter combat with Red >List minions as 1s (D) actions that cost 1 blood. > >This allows you to get around spending an additional MPA to Red List >mark every turn. And, it doesn't make the Red List trait much worse >because only Trophy Hunter decks will benefit. One thing it does do is mean that you don't have the delay (or requirement for a rush in hand) that the current Red List rules have. That is, to use the marking rules at present, the minion must already be Red List. Under this rule, you could go into your minion phase, Red List a minion and then, with a second action (either an untap or a second minion), immediately use this new 'innate' rush to smack them. Currently, you'd need a rush action around to do that. I'm not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing, but mostly noting that it's a change and wondering if that part of it is intentional. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

actually here around there was time (like 1 year) when in almost any game you can meet some trophy deck (7-8 from 10 games). by my observations i can say following: - trophy costing MPA are eqal to the effect you get after you recieve them. making them trifle is absolutely insane and improving whole mechanics in big manner. biggest deal for trophy deck is just the MPA cost for trophy. that force you to think about Master cards placed in deck. most of the time there was a problem beacause another effective poolgain was only Minion tap and Blood doll. After vessel and vilein were printed out this problem falls of as you have trifle poolgain and right after you get MPA to place trophy in game. - marking red list minion as MPA action is quite regular option comapring to another effects generated by the cards (Tension in the ranks, brother's grim etc.) I understand the fact that you can't create redlist and rush same turn withou cards. but in fact I never saw trophy deck not playing rush cards. You just simply can't make all minions around the table redlists. and sometime you just have to rush even nonredlist minions to protect you so playing rush cards is just simply necessary. as well in weenie potence you will play rushes... and don't forget fact that with playing trophys as MPA you don;t have always free MPA to mark redlists... - beeing redlist is huge disadvantage. especialy in care when you play one redlist minion as star (mata hari, angelo...) i saw more than once that for example mata hari was influenced out and she was marked by prey and predator and rushed several times even before chance to get secure heaven... not to mention that you maybe don't have the secure heaven in opening hand... once you play redlist star vampire you will be rushed definitely just to stop you in begining. In case that you have redlist minion and there is combat deck which need to cycle red hand you will be definitely rushed. Even such monsters like enkidu or ossian are not safe. i saw once great sacrifice of 4 minions to knock down and diablerise enkidu with 1 blood just to avoid future rushes. in my opinion problem is that there are only 3 common chances to get redlist to game - action that si blockable and playeble on younger vampire only - political action that have to pass - someone influence you redlist (1 in 10 games???) maybee adding more options to create redlist vampire will be more helping whole this process.

On Oct 4, 12:27 pm, brandonsantacruz <brandonsantac...@yahoo.com> wrote: > MPAs are scarce in a trophy deck and the whole mechanic is pretty > weak. It would be a pretty easy errata to do. What do you all think? I think that a deck with 24xTrophy Progeny is hard enough to keep under control. Now you are just making it faster. So, no, I do not think they need to be trifles.

On Oct 5, 2:16 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > >I would be happy if there were a rule like this: > > >If you have a Trophy in play, your vampires may enter combat with Red > >List minions as 1s (D) actions that cost 1 blood. > > >This allows you to get around spending an additional MPA to Red List > >mark every turn. And, it doesn't make the Red List trait much worse > >because only Trophy Hunter decks will benefit. > > One thing it does do is mean that you don't have the delay (or > requirement for a rush in hand) that the current Red List rules have. > That is, to use the marking rules at present, the minion must already be > Red List.  Under this rule, you could go into your minion phase, Red > List a minion and then, with a second action (either an untap or a > second minion), immediately use this new 'innate' rush to smack them. > Currently, you'd need a rush action around to do that. > > I'm not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing, but mostly noting > that it's a change and wondering if that part of it is intentional. > > -- > James Coupe > PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D             YOU ARE IN ERROR. > EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2            NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. > 13D7E668C3695D623D5D            THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION. This is true. Another possible fix could be to make Red List marking a Trifle. That way the cost is minimal, but it still has some cost. Mainly, this would just mean fewer Trifle cards in Trophy hunter decks. Jeff

>That said, I don't know that I'd make trophies trifles. You know that >Trophy: Progeny deck in the TWDA? Can you imagine how much more >effective it would be if the Methuselah playing it had received an >extra MPA each turn? Terrifying. I don't think that because, like, one guy in the world owns enough Progeny Trophies to actually build this (rather clever) deck the option should be disregarded entirely. And that's even assuming that if you suddenly could play one more trophies a turn the deck would spin completely out of control and dominate the future tournament scene. It's not as if there's about 5 more moving parts in the deck that makes it work. At best, it'd just mean you can do it with someone other than Anson + random !Tor that can fight or Cybele/Nana + random titled !Tor. That can't possibly be bad. Not that I think trophies as trifles would fix the problem with trophies for that matter.

On Oct 5, 8:41 am, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 5, 2:16 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >I would be happy if there were a rule like this: > > > >If you have a Trophy in play, your vampires may enter combat with Red > > >List minions as 1s (D) actions that cost 1 blood. > > > >This allows you to get around spending an additional MPA to Red List > > >mark every turn. And, it doesn't make the Red List trait much worse > > >because only Trophy Hunter decks will benefit. > > > One thing it does do is mean that you don't have the delay (or > > requirement for a rush in hand) that the current Red List rules have. > > That is, to use the marking rules at present, the minion must already be > > Red List.  Under this rule, you could go into your minion phase, Red > > List a minion and then, with a second action (either an untap or a > > second minion), immediately use this new 'innate' rush to smack them. > > Currently, you'd need a rush action around to do that. > > > I'm not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing, but mostly noting > > that it's a change and wondering if that part of it is intentional. Yep, I was thinking about that when I made the suggestion. I think Kuta's suggestion is better because it helps limit potential abuse of certain trophies, plus it is an easier fix(no card text change). It would hose those random red-listed minions a little more. How many times are you going to see decks with 24 Trophy: Progeny? How often will a silly deck like that just die to a vote or bleed deck? Brandon

On Oct 4, 4:46 pm, Curevei <Cure...@aol.com> wrote: > On Oct 4, 1:15 pm, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Oct 4, 10:27 am, brandonsantacruz <brandonsantac...@yahoo.com> > > wrote: > > > > MPAs are scarce in a trophy deck and the whole mechanic is pretty > > > weak. It would be a pretty easy errata to do. What do you all think? > > > > Brandon > > > I would be happy if there were a rule like this: > > > If you have a Trophy in play, your vampires may enter combat with Red > > List minions as 1s (D) actions that cost 1 blood. > > > This allows you to get around spending an additional MPA to Red List > > mark every turn. And, it doesn't make the Red List trait much worse > > because only Trophy Hunter decks will benefit. > > > I'd also like this rule: > > > Any vampire with a Trophy may enter combat with a Red List minion as a > > 1s (D) action. > > > So you got your first trophy and the next one is just a little easier > > to come by since you don't have to spend blood. If you get some other > > benefit, like Trophy: Progeny which just goes in play, then you don't > > get the benefit. > > > Jeff > > I'd rather just that Red List, Trophy, and anything that key off of > them were eliminated from the game as being mechanics that add > complexity far in excess of value. What sort of value? Fun? Competitiveness? If the Trophy mechanic isn't "good" enough, then shouldn't it be made better? > Since that isn't going to happen, > nor I'm sure would be the far better elimination of Scarce from the > game, or any other mechanics purging that would scale back the > complexity while having virtually no impact on play, I'd just let > people continue to try to innovate to get the mechanic to work as > written (or be used as a fake out in a stealth bleed deck, or > whatever). > > If the game ever expands again, rather than rewrite the rules, could > just create new vampires with Trophy-related specials or have cards > like: > > Gloryhound > Master.  Archetype.  Trifle. > When this vampire gains a Trophy, the vampire gains a Winner Token and > you may search your library, hand, and/or ash heap for a Master: > Trophy card and put that card into play.  For each Winner Token a > minion has, the minion has +1 bleed.  A vampire can have only one > archetype. I like this, but make it better: When this vampire successfully bleeds, your prey burns an additional pool for each Winner Token. (Yeah, make your prey pay when they bounce.) Jeff

On Oct 5, 12:39 pm, brandonsantacruz <brandonsantac...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Oct 5, 8:41 am, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Oct 5, 2:16 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > > > > Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >I would be happy if there were a rule like this: > > > > >If you have a Trophy in play, your vampires may enter combat with Red > > > >List minions as 1s (D) actions that cost 1 blood. > > > > >This allows you to get around spending an additional MPA to Red List > > > >mark every turn. And, it doesn't make the Red List trait much worse > > > >because only Trophy Hunter decks will benefit. > > > > One thing it does do is mean that you don't have the delay (or > > > requirement for a rush in hand) that the current Red List rules have. > > > That is, to use the marking rules at present, the minion must already be > > > Red List.  Under this rule, you could go into your minion phase, Red > > > List a minion and then, with a second action (either an untap or a > > > second minion), immediately use this new 'innate' rush to smack them. > > > Currently, you'd need a rush action around to do that. > > > > I'm not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing, but mostly noting > > > that it's a change and wondering if that part of it is intentional. > > Yep, I was thinking about that when I made the suggestion. I think > Kuta's suggestion is better because it helps limit potential abuse of > certain trophies, plus it is an easier fix(no card text change). It > would hose those random red-listed minions a little more. > >  How many times are you going to see decks with 24 Trophy: Progeny? > How often will a silly deck like that just die to a vote or bleed > deck? How many straw men can you try to prop up? You obviously haven't seen it.

On Oct 5, 11:46 am, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > On Oct 5, 12:39 pm, brandonsantacruz <brandonsantac...@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > On Oct 5, 8:41 am, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Oct 5, 2:16 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > > > > > Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > >I would be happy if there were a rule like this: > > > > > >If you have a Trophy in play, your vampires may enter combat with Red > > > > >List minions as 1s (D) actions that cost 1 blood. > > > > > >This allows you to get around spending an additional MPA to Red List > > > > >mark every turn. And, it doesn't make the Red List trait much worse > > > > >because only Trophy Hunter decks will benefit. > > > > > One thing it does do is mean that you don't have the delay (or > > > > requirement for a rush in hand) that the current Red List rules have. > > > > That is, to use the marking rules at present, the minion must already be > > > > Red List.  Under this rule, you could go into your minion phase, Red > > > > List a minion and then, with a second action (either an untap or a > > > > second minion), immediately use this new 'innate' rush to smack them. > > > > Currently, you'd need a rush action around to do that. > > > > > I'm not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing, but mostly noting > > > > that it's a change and wondering if that part of it is intentional. > > > Yep, I was thinking about that when I made the suggestion. I think > > Kuta's suggestion is better because it helps limit potential abuse of > > certain trophies, plus it is an easier fix(no card text change). It > > would hose those random red-listed minions a little more. > > >  How many times are you going to see decks with 24 Trophy: Progeny? > > How often will a silly deck like that just die to a vote or bleed > > deck? > > How many straw men can you try to prop up? > > You obviously haven't seen it. Not true. I was in Berkeley when it was played. It was my pred and I happened to be playing Allonzo. Sucked to be me! Who needs straw men? Brandon

brandonsantacruz wrote: > MPAs are scarce in a trophy deck and the whole mechanic is pretty > weak. It would be a pretty easy errata to do. What do you all think? Because of the existence of Trophy:Progeny, no, it's a bad idea. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=129744447064017

Here's an honest to God Trophy: Progeny deck in the TWDA: http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k8celestial2 Look at that and tell me how resilient it is. Brandon

> > You obviously haven't seen it. > > Not true. I was in Berkeley when it was played. It was my pred and I > happened to be playing Allonzo. Sucked to be me! Who needs straw men? > > Brandon- We saw it in L.A. too. If it gets off it is hard to stop.

> > Because of the existence of Trophy:Progeny, no, it's a bad idea. > > Yes, Ira says the trophy progeny deck consistently takes advantage of MPA on the first three turns. If they are trifles that is 5 or 6 Trophy Progeny in all likelyhood in the first three turns! Then with Anson or heidlberg or both, suddenly 20-30 trophies (masters) becomes even less of problem. Aside from getting that many trophy progeny cards, it just seems like it would improve this one deck exponentially and perhaps resiliance isn't even an issue anymore. -Andy

"TorranceCircle" <torrance.circle@gmail.com> schreef in bericht news:cbe98b3b-087d-49af-9944-98181bab9e10@q28g2000prb.googlegroups.com... > >> >> Because of the existence of Trophy:Progeny, no, it's a bad idea. So basically one guy, known for his clever decks (well at least that's the first thing I think when I read Ira Fay) won a tournament, like, two years ago with a Progeny Trophy Deck (a 10 player tournament at that). Afterwards not even a deck *remotely* resembling it made its way into the TWDA. Clearly this is an insanely strong deck that doesn't need any advantage it can get to actually win. I mean, it's a TROPHY deck. By default, it's a shit deck and only because it's so damn clever it gets actually bumped up to "wow nice deck". > Yes, Ira says the trophy progeny deck consistently takes advantage of > MPA on the first three turns. If they are trifles that is 5 or 6 > Trophy Progeny in all likelyhood in the first three turns! Then with > Anson or heidlberg or both, suddenly 20-30 trophies (masters) becomes > even less of problem. Aside from getting that many trophy progeny > cards, it just seems like it would improve this one deck exponentially > and perhaps resiliance isn't even an issue anymore. Ye, see how would it improve "exponentially"? Woopdeefuckingdoo, you get to play an extra Progeny each turn, assuming you actually have them on hand. So somehow, suddenly having a few more progeny trophies would make it ridiculous? If you read Ira's entire comments, he's saying he //rarely// discards a Progeny. Ergo, having more master phases will only //rarely// give an extra trophy on the table unless you decide to play, like, 50 progeny's. Ye, that's gonna work. I'm must be missing something here, I guess. I've never seen it in action, but seems to me that it doesn't really matter wheter you have 15 or 20 on the table when the combo finally goes off. The hard part is Red Listing someone and then killing that someone before someone else does. I mean, is 2-3 extra 2-bleed nerds *REALLY* gonna make a difference provided you already have 10+ out in the first place? Again, I'm not advocating making Trophy's trifle (would make more sense to make marking a trifle, if anything) but saying "Progeny exists, so no" is not a good argument. If you want to make Red List / Trophy more playable change the clause that triggers trophies to include undirected actions as well as any form of diablerie (that's you, blocking self-rescue) so that you're not forced to add an extra moving part to an already fragile strategy (rush // combat) to use them. It's clean, doesn't require cardtext changes and makes perfect sense.

There is *1* trophy deck in the TWDA! Is Ira (?) the only player in the world with enuff Progenys to make the deck? If so, then the concept is no threat. If not, clearly it's fragile enuff not to win frequently. "it's a TROPHY deck. By default, it's a shit deck" Sadly v true. Great concept. Should be a good payoff for extra trickiness and difficulty setting up the play; however since they always go down painfully in every game i've seen one play (including my own attempts) i'd say its been overly nerfed in it's cost compared to the benefit they provide. They're a concept that is simply/ automatically recognised as a losing strategy in my playgroup. It needs some sort of fix. The trifle idea may be one good step. *If* Progeny is considered waaaaay too scary powerful, maybe errata all trophies *except* Progeny to be trifles. The main problem tho is actually Red Listing someone (& then the delay in rushing them too, i guess) - it's too easily foiled. So i'd suggest that's where the fix needs to be aimed. I guess one other option may b to address general fragility - why do they go down?? - weakness in general combat, or bled/voted out. So maybe a Trophy to help w bleed/vote defence or significant aid in combat would make the concept more worthwhile. Again, u still need to pull off the first acquistion of Trophies tho...

On 6 Out, 09:02, technobabble66 <stujaq...@hotmail.com> wrote: > There is *1* trophy deck in the TWDA! > Is Ira (?) the only player in the world with enuff Progenys to make > the deck? If so, then the concept is no threat. If not, clearly it's > fragile enuff not to win frequently. > > "it's a TROPHY deck. By default, it's a shit deck" > Sadly v true. Great concept. Should be a good payoff for extra > trickiness and difficulty setting up the play; however since they > always go down painfully in every game i've seen one play (including > my own attempts) i'd say its been overly nerfed in it's cost compared > to the benefit they provide. They're a concept that is simply/ > automatically recognised as a losing strategy in my playgroup. > > It needs some sort of fix. > > The trifle idea may be one good step. *If* Progeny is considered > waaaaay too scary powerful, maybe errata all trophies *except* Progeny > to be trifles. > > The main problem tho is actually Red Listing someone (& then the delay > in rushing them too, i guess) - it's too easily foiled. > So i'd suggest that's where the fix needs to be aimed. > > I guess one other option may b to address general fragility - why do > they go down?? - weakness in general combat, or bled/voted out. So > maybe a Trophy to help w bleed/vote defence or significant aid in > combat would make the concept more worthwhile. Again, u still need to > pull off the first acquistion of Trophies tho... Here's a thought for y'all: playtest it. Better that than being here bandying theory all thread long. Drain

On Oct 6, 4:02 am, technobabble66 <stujaq...@hotmail.com> wrote: > There is *1* trophy deck in the TWDA! When I was checking last night, I definitely saw more than one deck in the TWDA that used trophies. Run a search through it on the word "trophy." John Eno

On Oct 6, 10:37 am, Kushiel <invisibleking...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 6, 4:02 am, technobabble66 <stujaq...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > There is *1* trophy deck in the TWDA! > > When I was checking last night, I definitely saw more than one deck in > the TWDA that used trophies. Run a search through it on the word > "trophy." I count seven.

On Oct 5, 5:01 pm, brandonsantacruz <brandonsantac...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Here's an honest to God Trophy: Progeny deck in the TWDA: > > http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k8celestial2 > > Look at that and tell me how resilient it is. > It's a trick deck. Nothing more, nothing less.