since it looks like WotC will actually be publishing some new V:tES
cards now, it might be worthwhile to revive that Methuselah Card thing
again and see if we can turn it into something worthwhile.
for those of you that don't remember/never knew, Methuselah Cards were
supposed to be a new class of cards, perhaps oversized. You would
start with one in play and it would give you some advantages and
disadvantages during the game that would hopefully balance out (or sum
to a slight net disadvantage). The idea is that you should be able to
have some people play with Methuselah cards and some not and things
would still work out ok.
Apparently if I post a card idea here it can never be published for
profit, so I'll give an example using a Methuselah Card I didn't
particularly like :)
Garon, the Beastmaster (gangrel)
--hand size -1
--You may take a master-phase action to give one of your controlled
vampires ani until your next untap phase.
--Your minions pay one less blood for retainers requiring animilism.
--You may not play master: skill cards other than animalism.
-Dave
On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, David Gausebeck wrote:
> since it looks like WotC will actually be publishing some new V:tES
> cards now, it might be worthwhile to revive that Methuselah Card thing
> again and see if we can turn it into something worthwhile.
>
> for those of you that don't remember/never knew, Methuselah Cards were
> supposed to be a new class of cards, perhaps oversized. You would
> start with one in play and it would give you some advantages and
> disadvantages during the game that would hopefully balance out (or sum
> to a slight net disadvantage). The idea is that you should be able to
> have some people play with Methuselah cards and some not and things
> would still work out ok.
I emember this idea being bandied about, but do not remember understanding
why anyone thought it would benefit the game.
In Jyhad, the players *are* the Methuselahs, working and manipulating from
behind the scenes (anonymously). The idea that they should need a card to
represent themselves, or that they should place this card, representing
their identity, in play up front, seems to me to be out of the spirit of
the game. Why do I, as a Methuselah, need WOTC to print cards telling me
who I am.
If new cards are to be printed, then I rather hope that the energy of WOTC
will be directed more appropriately.
Lupus Australis
____ ____
\ \----/ /
|()__()|
__\ __ /__
/ __\()/__ \
|/ \==/ \|
| || |
In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.981102001254.26377A-100000@amanda>,
Lupus Australis <jbwh...@dorsai.org> wrote:
[snip "remember methuselah cards?" part]
>
> I emember this idea being bandied about, but do not remember understanding
> why anyone thought it would benefit the game.
I don't know...for flavor, it's interesting...I'm going to check DN to see if
there were any really good ideas...
> In Jyhad, the players *are* the Methuselahs, working and manipulating from
> behind the scenes (anonymously). The idea that they should need a card to
> represent themselves, or that they should place this card, representing
> their identity, in play up front, seems to me to be out of the spirit of
> the game. Why do I, as a Methuselah, need WOTC to print cards telling me
> who I am.
Well, that's true, but for variety, it might be amusing...or again, provide
flavor...kind of like the pack totems in Rage...or the ancestor spirits...at
least they would be hard to make horribly broken...
> If new cards are to be printed, then I rather hope that the energy of WOTC
> will be directed more appropriately.
Ohh...that's a little too harsh, isn't it? I mean, they could end up making
"Death Ray" - Equipment 2 pool, the minion with this equipmet may do 5R
damage as a strike. The minion with this equipment gains the designator
"Evil Genius"
And so on and so forth...
Xian, coming up with random weird crap at this hour of the morning...
"You can just ignore it...and let hand jam sort them out."
--Jasper Phillips
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>I don't know...for flavor, it's interesting...I'm going to check DN to see if
>there were any really good ideas...
Actually, the specific card ideas were never posted to the newsgroup
due to copyright considerations. We had a small mailing list going
for a while working on some card ideas, and I think we had about 20
potential cards at one point, but things kind of died out after a
while. I'm sure I have the list of card ideas around here somewhere,
so if anyone wants to look over the list you can mail me about it.
-Dave
> for those of you that don't remember/never knew, Methuselah Cards were
> supposed to be a new class of cards, perhaps oversized.
...and what are Master Cards supposed to be?
Noal
--
"DISCUSSION, n. A method of confirming others in their errors."
-Ambrose Bierce.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <71k1ed$3g2$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
xi...@waste.org (Xian) wrote:
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.981102001254.26377A-100000@amanda>,
> Lupus Australis <jbwh...@dorsai.org> wrote:
> [snip "remember methuselah cards?" part]
> >
> > I emember this idea being bandied about, but do not remember understanding
> > why anyone thought it would benefit the game.
Yeah, quite right, what a STUPID idea .. whoever had it must have been off
their trolley .. o wait a minute, it was me .. guess that proves the point
....
>
> I don't know...for flavor, it's interesting...I'm going to check DN to see if
> there were any really good ideas...
>> > In Jyhad, the players *are* the Methuselahs, working and manipulating from
> > behind the scenes (anonymously). The idea that they should need a card to
> > represent themselves, or that they should place this card, representing
> > their identity, in play up front, seems to me to be out of the spirit of
> > the game. Why do I, as a Methuselah, need WOTC to print cards telling me
> > who I am.
Well, you don't. It is like taking merits and flaws in character generation -
PURELY an option. Don't use it if you don't like it. But why stop others doing
it if they want to?
>
> Well, that's true, but for variety, it might be amusing...or again, provide
> flavor...kind of like the pack totems in Rage...or the ancestor spirits...at
> least they would be hard to make horribly broken...
Hey, maybe it wasn't such a dumb idea at that ....
>
> > If new cards are to be printed, then I rather hope that the energy of WOTC
> > will be directed more appropriately.
>
The methuselah cards kinda work and have kinda been playtested. So have a load
of other good card ideas.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Mon, 2 Nov 1998 legb...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Lupus Australis <jbwh...@dorsai.org> wrote:
> >
> > > In Jyhad, the players *are* the Methuselahs, working and manipulating from
> > > behind the scenes (anonymously). The idea that they should need a card to
> > > represent themselves, or that they should place this card, representing
> > > their identity, in play up front, seems to me to be out of the spirit of
> > > the game. Why do I, as a Methuselah, need WOTC to print cards telling me
> > > who I am.
>
> Well, you don't. It is like taking merits and flaws in character generation -
> PURELY an option. Don't use it if you don't like it. But why stop others doing
> it if they want to?
I don't want to stop anybody from doing anything. I never said a word
about it the first time the subject was raised. I had no interest and
simply did not contribute to the discussion.
But the current mention of them was prompted by an announcement that WOTC
might actually be planning to release a handful of new V:tES cards each
year. If these cards actually turn out to be "Methuselah Cards", I shall
be very disapointed. I would much rather see a handful of new vampires.
I do not feel that "Vanguard-style" Methuselah cards fit with the flavor
of the game, as they do in Magic (I believe that's where the concept
comes from). A "Vanguard" is a unit that marches openly in front of an
army, and is an appropriate term for a card that you begin with already in
play.
Methuselahs, however, do not march openly in front of their forces. They
work mysteriously, behind the scenes, revealing almost nothing about
themselves, including their true identities. For Mehuselahs to reveal
their name, sex, clan, special abilities, and true appearance before the
first card is even played seems wrong. If others enjoy the concept, fine,
but I do not look forward to it becoming an official part of the V:tES
rules.
> > Well, that's true, but for variety, it might be amusing...or again, provide
> > flavor...kind of like the pack totems in Rage...or the ancestor spirits...at
> > least they would be hard to make horribly broken...
>
> Hey, maybe it wasn't such a dumb idea at that ....
I never said it was dumb. It just don't like the idea, for the above-
stated reasons. I might be less hostile if the notion were somehow
reworked so the cards need not be put in play face-up, but I have no ideas
on how that would be made to work.
> > > If new cards are to be printed, then I rather hope that the energy of WOTC
> > > will be directed more appropriately.
>
> The methuselah cards kinda work and have kinda been playtested. So have a load
> of other good card ideas.
In spite of this consideration, there is evidently a limit to how much
WOTC is willing to do in the way of printing new cards. Indeed, before
the recent announcement there was almost *no* hope of new cards, in spite
of what is no doubt an abundance of new card ideas from fans.
I personally would prefer that the the limited few cards they may
eventually print turn out to be something other than
Vanguard-style "Methuselah cards".
[ quoted text not captured ]
David Gausebeck wrote:
>
> >I don't know...for flavor, it's interesting...I'm going to check DN to see if
> >there were any really good ideas...
>> Actually, the specific card ideas were never posted to the newsgroup
> due to copyright considerations. We had a small mailing list going
> for a while working on some card ideas, and I think we had about 20
> potential cards at one point, but things kind of died out after a
> while. I'm sure I have the list of card ideas around here somewhere,
> so if anyone wants to look over the list you can mail me about it.
>
> -Dave
Actually, while I was never really in favour of the cards, I wanted to
make sure that I had a say in them if other people made them.
Therefore, and because I had some free web space, I put the list on my
computer.
If you want the URL, so you can take a look at them, you should email
me, but be sure not to disseminate the list or its address.
-Chris
The Malkavian Awakens!
Just want to throw in my 2 cents.
This Methuselah card thing make me think of five rings box powers which new
Battletech and L5R has. Personally I think it is a bad idea. First you
need to keep the boxes. (I know some people cut the backs out) Second you
have to collect all the boxes. This also is no fun from a collectors stand
point. Third, I agree with Lupus. WE are Methuselah. It is part of the
game I enjoy, it adds a little role-playing back into the card game. I
really don't want a card that says: Bob - Nosferatu Methuselah Tap to blah.
That is fine for games like Highlander (where you play specific immortals
based on a back story) but not for Jyhad (or V:TES if you must). (I am sure
they won't print a McEwen the Mad Methuselah card if they start doing
Methuselah cards.) Also, since I played Highlander, assigning powers to a
Methuselah means that certain Methuselah are best at certain deck types and
some are unused. This can be a hindrance since to build, say a bleed deck,
you have to use X, Y, or Z Methuselah, which limits your choices. Also this
results in broadcasting deck strategies earlier. "Oh he is X Methuselah, he
must be ready to bleed."
(Actually if you look at the world of Darkness there are already Methuselah
in Jyhad, Etrius if a fourth generation Tremere or a Methuselah. Therefore
all 11 capacity vamps are technically Methuselah.)
Anyways not my clearest arguments but, hey, I'm Malkavian.
McEwen the Mad
Malkavian Elder of Toledo, (Ohio not Spain)
P.S. I hope WOTC just sticks with adding vampires and cards to help the
weaker disciplines and fix holes in the game.
Lupus Australis wrote in message ...
>On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, David Gausebeck wrote:
>>> since it looks like WotC will actually be publishing some new V:tES
>> cards now, it might be worthwhile to revive that Methuselah Card thing
>> again and see if we can turn it into something worthwhile.
>>>> for those of you that don't remember/never knew, Methuselah Cards were>> supposed to be a new class of cards, perhaps oversized. You would
>> start with one in play and it would give you some advantages and
>> disadvantages during the game that would hopefully balance out (or sum
>> to a slight net disadvantage). The idea is that you should be able to
>> have some people play with Methuselah cards and some not and things
>> would still work out ok.>>I emember this idea being bandied about, but do not remember understanding
>why anyone thought it would benefit the game.
>>In Jyhad, the players *are* the Methuselahs, working and manipulating from
>behind the scenes (anonymously). The idea that they should need a card to
>represent themselves, or that they should place this card, representing
>their identity, in play up front, seems to me to be out of the spirit of
>the game. Why do I, as a Methuselah, need WOTC to print cards telling me
>who I am.
>>If new cards are to be printed, then I rather hope that the energy of WOTC
>will be directed more appropriately.
>[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <Tc#VEFnB#GA....@news02.toast.net>,
McEwen the Mad <mcewen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>The Malkavian Awakens!
>
>Just want to throw in my 2 cents.
Hell, everyone else is, so I may as well too.
I in general don't like the stronghold effect of most (all?) FRPG
games because it severely limits deck design, which follows
directly from the small number of different strongholds, and the
fact that any deck that takes advantage of it's box's effect will be
stronger.
However, I don't think Methuseluh cards would neccesarily be so bad,
provided that they were in general more of a hinderance than a benefit,
and you weren't required or obliged to play with them to compete.
They could in fact make for _more_ variety of deck construction.
Something similar to starting with a location in play at a price for
instance. I would prefer that they were rather generic too, being
"Methuslah types" rather than individuals, without clan or discipline
specific effects (pool, transfer, and hand size differences are
good examples). I guess I've always been a big fan of starting with
stuff in play from my board game/war game days.
That said, I don't think they're a good idea at all in practice, as
they're far more likely to limit strategy in FRPG's hands, and the
game hardly needs them even if they're done well.
As many others have said what's really needed are more (balanced!)
vampires for the expansion clans, plus a few new (usefull!) cards for
the expansion disciplines. A vampire or 2 from each of the original
clans would round things out nicely (probably 1 Cam, 1 Sabbat).
I don't expect the people in charge to come to us for their
card design (difficult to do, although in this case I think it would
actually be for the best -- and anyway, what better venue to test
such an approach out?), although I certainly hope that they at
least listen to what appears to be the prevailing sentiment.
LSJ, any idea how much say you have in what happens?
-Jasper
who'd be quite willing to beta test
--
/\ Jasper Phillips
/VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz
j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--.
* http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`
phil...@tx.ENGR.ORST.EDU (Jasper Phillips) wrote:
> I don't expect the people in charge to come to us for their
> card design (difficult to do, although in this case I think it would
> actually be for the best -- and anyway, what better venue to test
> such an approach out?), although I certainly hope that they at
> least listen to what appears to be the prevailing sentiment.
>
> LSJ, any idea how much say you have in what happens?
I have no idea. I've heard only as much as you've heard so far.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html[ quoted text not captured ]
On 6 Nov 1998, Jasper Phillips wrote:
> In article <Tc#VEFnB#GA....@news02.toast.net>,
> McEwen the Mad <mcewen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I in general don't like the stronghold effect of most (all?) FRPG
> games because it severely limits deck design, which follows
> directly from the small number of different strongholds, and the
> fact that any deck that takes advantage of it's box's effect will be
> stronger.
>
> However, I don't think Methuseluh cards would neccesarily be so bad,
> provided that they were in general more of a hinderance than a benefit,
> and you weren't required or obliged to play with them to compete.
> They could in fact make for _more_ variety of deck construction.
> Something similar to starting with a location in play at a price for
> instance. I would prefer that they were rather generic too, being
> "Methuslah types" rather than individuals, without clan or discipline
> specific effects (pool, transfer, and hand size differences are
> good examples).
*If* "Stronghold"-type cards were to become part of Jyhad (which, as you
have pointed out, will probably be a bad idea in practice), then I would
prefer they have nothing to do with a Methuselah's identity. Rather, they
might represent various front organizations, bases of operation, or some
such.
*If* cards were to be printed representing Methuselahs, then I think it
might be more interesting if they were printed as regular Vampire crypt
cards. They could have 11 capacity, but be more powerful than IC members
as far as disciplines and special abilities, but would have some rather
severe disadvantages as well. They might have the following restrictions:
You can have only one Methuselah in play at a time; if your Methuselah is
in torpor, you must skip your master and influence phases; if your
Methuselah is burned, you are ousted (all of which could be printed on
card text).
The idea behind this: Any Methuselah who reveals himself openly can use
his powers more freely, but also makes himself very vulnerable.
I'm not saying this is a good idea either, but I like it rather better.
> I guess I've always been a big fan of starting with
> stuff in play from my board game/war game days.
OK. But if anything begins in play, it should not be the Methuselah.
Methuselahs should stay behind the scenes, or at least *start* behind the
scenes.
> That said, I don't think they're a good idea at all in practice, as
> they're far more likely to limit strategy in FRPG's hands, and the
> game hardly needs them even if they're done well.
Agreed.
> As many others have said what's really needed are more (balanced!)
> vampires for the expansion clans, plus a few new (usefull!) cards for
> the expansion disciplines. A vampire or 2 from each of the original
> clans would round things out nicely (probably 1 Cam, 1 Sabbat).
I personally would like to see some support cards to help out equipment
and allies, press combat, and other underpowered aspects of the game.
Rather than new broken cards, I would like to see cards that would work
well in combination with the many neglected cards we have currently.
> I don't expect the people in charge to come to us for their
> card design (difficult to do, although in this case I think it would
> actually be for the best -- and anyway, what better venue to test
> such an approach out?), although I certainly hope that they at
> least listen to what appears to be the prevailing sentiment.
Did not someone say that card ideas published on the net would never have
a chance of being used by FRPG, for copyright reasons? I have a few card
ideas of my own that IMNSHO are pretty damn good. I'm not interested in
getting credit for them or any such nonsense. I would just like to have
them considered for what they are worth. Would appreciate any advice on
what to do with them, who to send them to, etc.
[ quoted text not captured ]