Worst. Card. Ever. What is it?

Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun. Three categories: Crypt Master Minion Then choose the absolute Worst. Feel free to state your case in all your selections; or let the card's own odiousness speak for itself. May the worst card win (lose?). best - chris

Crypt: Miguel Cordovera. Okay usually I think that no vampires are bad. You just have to find the right strategy. But this one. Let your predator take control of him and bleed you with +1 bleed and DOM. Still if you play with lots of deflections. I don't think your prey or predator would mind if Miguel goes to topor after a deflection. Master: Extremis Boon. Do you plan on being ousted? Minion: Esteem. Totally useless.

[ quoted text not captured ] I can't speak for what the worst Vampire is. There are situations you might want a vampire for it's capacity, strange discipline spread, etc. For worst crypt card, I'll have to go with the Imbued for not belonging in VTES conceptually. Worst minion card: Cardinal Sin: Mission of Failure Reaction Cost: 2 blood Requires a ready cardinal, archbishop, or regent Only usable when this vampire has blocked a Sabbat vampire without a title, before combat begins. Put this card on that vampire. You still control this card. Any Sabbat vampire controlled by another Methuselah may enter combat with the vampire with this card as a (D) action. Any Sabbat vampire can burn this card as a (D) action. What does this card require in order to even be played? 1) You need to have a cardinal, archbishop, or regent 2) Said vampire must be ready 3) Another methuselah's minion must be acting 4) The acting minion must be a vamoire 5) The acting vampire must be sabbat 6) That vampire must be untitled 7) Your cardinal, archbishop, or regent must block the acting untitled sabbat vampire 8) You must play this card pre-combat 9) Pay 2 blood What's the payoff? Sabbat vampires controlled by other methuselahs may enter combat with the blocked vampire. Too powerful you say? Alright, any sabbat vampire may burn the card as a D action. Rather than waste your time with this garbage, how about you just play intercept combat? You have to block them anyway. No real requirements on "I attempt to block," where there are at least 9 on CS:I (in addition to having the card in hand). Worst master? There are a lot of good choices for this, many from Ancient Hearts and Dark Sovereigns. Good choices might include Pere Lachaise, France Goodnight, Sweet Prince Brandon

librarian wrote: > Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun. > > Three categories: > > Crypt I've always hated Tusk. He is a much weaker Grendel. Harrod is really bad. Lazar Dobrescu is pretty bad, but at least he's a 3-cap. > Master Pere Lachaise, France is seriously rotten. I dare you to use it. > Minion Probably Goth Band. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html

On Dec 4, 1:47 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun. > Crypt Patrizia Giovanni, Collector of Secrets - 5 cap for 3 disciplines, of which no two are in-clan for anyone, and the whole arrangement is only shared by one other vampire, Qadir; and on top of that, a mediocre and boring special. > Master Tough call, but I've got a special bit of loathing in my heart for The Spawning Pool. It starts out looking so good, but then... OK, so you have to pay blood to power it up. Once per turn. Then it requires a minion to block, a bleed, against you, and for the combat to get to the second round. With Nosferatu, who if they want to punish you for bleeding them can probably find better ways to do it than this. I tried to make this work with a Nos/!Nos hybrid that used Church of the Order of St. Blaise to power up the Pool, and I could get it big... but it still sucked. > Minion I'm going to have to say Becoming of Ennoia - unless that doesn't count, since it's not actually a Minion card, but since Events don't have their own category and it's so horrendously full of suck that it's essentially unplayable I'm going to go with it anyway. Eyes of the Dead is pretty darn close, though. - D.J.

I love this, i didn't know most of these cards even existed!

[ quoted text not captured ] if you think these cards are bad , check out the quietus strike weakness. strike: burn a disciplin card on the opposing Vampire. i doubt that happened once in the entire life of vtes. worst card ever.

On Dec 4, 1:47 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > Crypt That's hard. Even the bad, underpowered minions have *some* sort of use in some deck somewhere at some point. All the old, Jyhad +1 strength guys are incredibly underpowered (see: Sebastian Marley), as are some of the just arbitrarily bad DS or AH vampires (see: Judah or Andrei Puxon). Heck, I even have a deck that makes reasonably good use of Rex, Necronomist. I think the super worst minions have to be the ones that have special "abilities" that make them just virtually unplayable out of the box--Alex Wilkins and Freddy Gage are pretty bad. > Master There are an awful lot of real throwaway masters--Pierre Lachese is a good one. Threestar Cab Company. I might give props to Club Zombie, as it *seems* like it is worth using, but paying 4 pool for an alternating hunting ground/KRCG usually just gets you ousted. > Minion Tortured Confessions. Worst card ever. Not 'cause the effect is actually that bad, I mean, yeah, it is never horrible to look at someone's hand. But the card uses *so* many words to be really underwhelming, considering the blood cost *and* high general cost of sending someone to torpor. -Peter

On Dec 4, 2:14 pm, Baaliprimogen <vegardki...@gmail.com> wrote: > Crypt: Miguel Cordovera. Yeah, that's who was hovering in my mind when writing my last one. Yeah. He is virtually unplayable--"Hey! I'll play a minion who has +1 bleed and DOM who my predator untaps and takes control of every turn!" Great. Yeah, has *anyone* figured out a clever angle here? -Peter

Meej wrote: > librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: >> Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun. >> Crypt > > Patrizia Giovanni, Collector of Secrets - 5 cap for 3 disciplines, of > which no two are in-clan for anyone, and the whole arrangement is > only shared by one other vampire, Qadir; and on top of that, a mediocre > and boring special. Thre are multiple game-winning decks on JOL with these two. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

Peter D Bakija wrote: > librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: >> Master > I might give props to Club Zombie, as it *seems* like it is worth > using, but paying 4 pool for an alternating hunting ground/KRCG > usually just gets you ousted. It helps immensely with Parity Shift. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Dec 4, 8:47 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun. > > Three categories: > > Crypt Cordovera. I think all the necessary things about this choice were already said. > Master Pere Lachaise, France. Pay 3 pool to waste your MPAs and force one other methuselah's vampire to take one action. > Minion Esteem. Absolutely useless. If you want the edge, just bleed. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Dec 4, 4:09 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > It helps immensely with Parity Shift. Sure. But so do other cards that are actually worth playing with. Heck, even Secret Horde is more likely to pay you back in the long run than Club Zombie is. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] You could play with The Diamond Thunderbolt. Or you could just have some random DOM + whatever guy get a Laptop. Hmm...which is more bother?

[ quoted text not captured ] Seems pretty powerful with diamond thunderbolt. Your prey can pay a pool to untap him and give him a blood if you have the card. If not, your prey puts mre pressure on your small prey - if your deck is fast, it could be a good thing. It could also be great if you are in a "lost position" and your prey is your friend... > librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: >> Master > I might give props to Club Zombie, as it *seems* like it is worth > using, but paying 4 pool for an alternating hunting ground/KRCG > usually just gets you ousted. It is one of the only cards that reliably gives you blood which is not a hunting ground. It could also be great if you are in a "lost position" and your predator is your friend... :P

On Dec 4, 4:40 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: > > Yeah, has *anyone* figured out a clever angle here? > > You could play with The Diamond Thunderbolt. Or you could just have some > random DOM + whatever guy get a Laptop. Hmm...which is more bother? Yeah, see, he has good disciplines (AUS, DOM, POT, THA) and is reasonably cheap (6 cap). But unless you are using enough Diamond Thunderbolts that you always have one when you need it, he is likely going to kill you (or himself due to the horrible guilt of diablere...). So you could get those good stats for a 6 cap who is going to kill you, *or*, as you note, just use someone else and a Laptop. Or, well, anything. I'm usually pretty good at seeing the hidden awesome in bad vampires. But this guy? I got nothing. -Peter

On Dec 4, 1:14 pm, Baaliprimogen <vegardki...@gmail.com> wrote: > Crypt: Miguel Cordovera. Okay usually I think that no vampires are > bad. You just have to find the right strategy. But this one. Let your > predator take control of him and bleed you with +1 bleed and DOM. > Still if you play with lots of deflections. I don't think your prey or > predator would mind if Miguel goes to topor after a deflection. Miguel's pretty bad. But at least you can use Diamond Thunderbolt if you're really worried about him. After the first few times, your predator is likely to stop trying. At least he's still better than Hector Trelane and the even worse Jacob the Glitch. ::sighs:: > Master: Extremis Boon. Do you plan on being ousted? Actually, Extremis Boon is quite a good card. I've had some good experiences with it in Limited. Keep meaning to try it more in Constructed but I never get around to it. Hoping someone has a Life Boon in their deck (let alone in their hand) is iffy at best. Packing your own Extremis Boon means you can eventually draw into it. Usually there will be someone in the game (usually at least your grandpredator) who will be interested in keeping you alive. With an Extremis Boon in your hand, you can play much more aggressively (tapping out, etc.). > Minion: Esteem. Totally useless. Yeah, generally it's pretty bad. But occasionally, there are special circumstances (like the Eden's Legacy storyline) where it becomes somewhat usable.

[ quoted text not captured ] I agree. Even that awesome art isn't enough to keep it off of my list. Speaking of the high general cost of sending someone to torpor.... How about Minor Boon? You have to wait for someone else to send your predator's vamp to torpor OR you have to have enough block tech and combat tech to knock the vamp down yourself. Then you have you use Minor Boon and your own master phase action to prop the vamp back up. If you have all of that tech working for you, your predator isn't likely to be bleeding you much anyway. And if you're Kevin Mergen you'd probably pull all of this off succesfully and lock down your predator's bleed deck with Minor Boon across the board and then he or she would transfer out. Ugh. -Robert

On Dec 4, 2:06 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > Lazar Dobrescu is pretty bad, but at least he's a 3-cap. Lazar is awesome! Fortitude weenie with amazing special. Many times, my prey has groaned when I bring out Lazar (because it disrupts his carefully calculated transfers). It's hard to justify including Trick of the Danya or Cairo International Airport in most Ravnos decks, but Lazar slots in quite well.

On Dec 4, 3:27 pm, Meej <dj...@comcast.net> wrote: > Patrizia Giovanni, Collector of Secrets Ooh! Yeah, she is pretty horrible. But still, somewhere, there is a Nec/Tha deck that *loves* her. Or something. > Tough call, but I've got a special bit of loathing in my heart for The > Spawning Pool. Yeah, it does blow a lot. Ooh! So does Nosferatu Hosting! Get it in play with Harrod and your prey will *never* have an unknown, uncontrolled minion! That'll teach them! Heh. Yeah, Nosferatu Hosting may be the worst master card ever. 1 pool. Use an MPA to look at an uncontrolled minion (clearly the initial use of a master *and* paying a pool wasn't enough of a cost to pay for this awesome ability) *and* a built in burn clause? That card is, like, scientifically designed to suck. > I'm going to have to say Becoming of Ennoia Yeah, blows. But it kinda blows simply 'cause it is virtually impossible to play. If you *could* play it, it is actually pretty good. Especially for one of those "everyone hates me" Imbued decks (heck, it would actually be really good in such a deck if it was "requires 2 other Gehenna cards in play" instead of "2 other Gehenna cards controlled by other players in play"). It's like the card editors forgot to make it playable by accident. -Peter

Miguel is awesome... you've not played him if you hate him. He clears your deflections, you get to bleed with him twice...

On Dec 4, 2:27 pm, Meej <dj...@comcast.net> wrote: > Patrizia Giovanni, Collector of Secrets - 5 cap for 3 disciplines, of > which no two are in-clan for anyone, and the whole arrangement is only > shared by one other vampire, Qadir; and on top of that, a mediocre and > boring special. Patrizia's weak, but she's still usable. Her special can occasionally be helpful. Her discipline spread is odd, but is far more usable nowadays with Anarch cards (qui/tha for CrimethInc for example). > > Master > > Tough call, but I've got a special bit of loathing in my heart for The > Spawning Pool. It starts out looking so good, but then... OK, so you > have to pay blood to power it up. Once per turn. Then it requires a > minion to block, a bleed, against you, and for the combat to get to > the second round. With Nosferatu, who if they want to punish you for > bleeding them can probably find better ways to do it than this. I > tried to make this work with a Nos/!Nos hybrid that used Church of the > Order of St. Blaise to power up the Pool, and I could get it big... > but it still sucked. I'd say the best use for Spawning Pool is with AUS Nosferatu. You're playing AUS so it shouldn't be hard to block a bleed. Telepathic Tracking guarantees you get to a second round. ::thump:: Spawning Pool fun! > > Minion > > I'm going to have to say Becoming of Ennoia - unless that doesn't > count, since it's not actually a Minion card, but since Events don't > have their own category and it's so horrendously full of suck that > it's essentially unplayable I'm going to go with it anyway. Eyes of > the Dead is pretty darn close, though. I'll agree with Becoming of Ennoia being bad, since you can't even play it unless other players are playing Gehenna cards.

On Dec 4, 4:42 pm, Ruben Feldman <frub...@gmail.com> wrote: > Seems pretty powerful with diamond thunderbolt. Is POT/DOM worth that much infrastructure? There are plenty of non inherently stealable minions with POT/DOM or AUS/DOM or DOM/THA. There are plenty of other minions that can do what he does. But don't require 10 Diamond Thunderbolt in the deck. Heck, at least Sonja Blue only costs a pool and has FOR so you can build a whole deck around her going multi-action crazy. > It is one of the only cards that reliably gives you blood which is not > a hunting ground. Yet costs 4 pool. A few Perfectionists are likely far more reliable. And less likely to kill you right out just for playing it. It is a rough card. I know Jay uses it all the time, but I think at this point, it is just, like, a wacky trademark. But now on further reflection, I'm leaning on Nosferatu Hosting as the worst master card. -Peter

On Dec 4, 2:55 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > > Crypt: Miguel Cordovera. > > Yeah, that's who was hovering in my mind when writing my last one. > Yeah. He is virtually unplayable--"Hey! I'll play a minion who has +1 > bleed and DOM who my predator untaps and takes control of every turn!" > > Great. > > Yeah, has *anyone* figured out a clever angle here? A. Diamond Thunderbolt B. Slap a Perfectionist on Miguel. Play lots of Dummy Corporation. Each time your predator bleeds you, you reduce it and Miguel actually gains blood! Or take the bleeds but passing it on with Major Boon (so Miguel still gains blood). C. Kiasyd/Tremere deck. Play multiple copies of Steal the Mind on your own Miguel. So Miguel bleeds you for 0 but he can still bleed other players. Yeah, I know. Weak. I'm really *trying* to be an optimist but it's really hard with Miguel....

On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Peter D Bakija wrote: > Yeah, see, he has good disciplines (AUS, DOM, POT, THA) and is > reasonably cheap (6 cap). But unless you are using enough Diamond > Thunderbolts that you always have one when you need it, he is likely > going to kill you (or himself due to the horrible guilt of > diablere...). Now I've got it. You play a deck with a bunch of Deflection, get Miguel, get someone sent to torpor. Get Miguel stolen so he eats that guy and burns in the bloodhunt... ...and then you play Redline for the first time in any game of vtes ever!!!

On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Robert Goudie wrote: > How about Minor Boon? You have to wait for someone else to send your > predator's vamp to torpor OR you have to have enough block tech and > combat tech to knock the vamp down yourself. Then you have you use > Minor Boon and your own master phase action to prop the vamp back up. > If you have all of that tech working for you, your predator isn't > likely to be bleeding you much anyway. And if you're Kevin Mergen > you'd probably pull all of this off succesfully and lock down your > predator's bleed deck with Minor Boon across the board and then he or > she would transfer out. Ugh. Right every bad card works once and then doesn't work any more. If anybody is wondering about this moldy, old thing, it's happened. Several years ago at a local tournament, a not-very-experienced player played it as he was being bled by his predator's Daring the Dawn unblockable bleed deck.

[ quoted text not captured ] Miguel is not that bad. Make him red list, burn him and collect trophies. He have no combat discipline, so cant defend, and you can use deflection to bleed with him. Ok, he sucks.

[ quoted text not captured ] If your deck is built around Chain of Command and he falls into the group he is a great vampire for the uncontrolled region. I did not bother with any of the clan hosers. Crypt: Quinton McDonnell 5 points in disciples, no bounce, no way to stop combat ends, and no good way to go anarch (which may be his only positive) Master: Kingston Penitentiary, Ontario 4 pool hunting ground that can help the wrong person at the wrong time. Minion: Death of My Conscience enough said Matt

[ quoted text not captured ] > > chris- Piilota siteerattu teksti - > > - Näytä siteerattu teksti - Hmm lets see what extra crappy stuff can think of... Crypt: I think I will go with Jacob the Glitch here. Sure he is a 2 cap with THA which is rather nice, but his drawback is just so horrible that its likely going to totally screw up your game. Master: Well there is hell of a lot of useless crap masters in the old sets, but I think I will go with Last Stand. The one time I have actually seen that card played, it made the predator of the person playing it to win the game rather directly. Minion: I still think nothing can beat Up Yours! in terms of crappiness. Even if you somehow manage to be able to play it, it still probably doesn't do any more damage than a lucky blow, and costs a blood too.

"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@io.com> wrote in message news:alpine.BSF.2.00.0...@eris.io.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Seriously, though, "play a deck with a bunch of Deflection" was actually my thought. If your predator wants to spend pool using him to bleed you, won't a few deflections discourage the habit pretty quickly? Fred

"Wilsoros" <davewi...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:ab2be4c8-e7ce-42af...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com... (Re: How to use Miguel Cordova in a deck.) > Miguel is awesome... you've not played him if you hate him. > > He clears your deflections, you get to bleed with him twice... Thank you!!! That's what I think. So many answerers with their stupid Diamond Thunderbolts! This is _so_ much simpler!

Augustus, thats my final vote. in the masters department, I would say blood puppy as a minion card, am sure I´m forgetting something, but I would say a clan exlcusive twaker would be, like Nosferatu Performance Art

A few responses: - Minor Boon isn't so bad. It's amazing in Limited. Although it has a hard time fighting for a deck slot in Constructed, being able to save a vampire cross-table can be useful. (Especially great when your predator/prey is a combat deck that miscalculates due to your unexpected Minor Boon. Also helpful for preventing your grandprey from dying due to Fame). - Kingston Penitentiary is certainly playable. It was amazing during the Return of Nergal storyline. It easily paid for itself (plus a few additional pool) thanks to the Nergal player (if you recall, Nergal comes out with very little blood, so the Nergal player paid me tons of pool to give Nergal blood). If played right, Kingston Penitentiary can be used to get you pool (often your grandpredator keeping you alive) or as part of deals (poor man's version of Succubus Club). Kingston and Extremis Boon add an interesting game theory dynamic (i.e. chicken) since you can be more reckless with your pool (trying to force other players to keep you in the game). This tactic may or may not work, depending on the personalities of the other players. - Death of My Conscience is super expensive, but what other card can give you +4 strength at inferior and +8 strength at superior? (Preferably use with a disposable vampire like an Illusion). - Someone mentioned Last Stand, which can be quite amazing. When done right, it can give you the table. (Lately people have been doing Anthelios + Last Stand tricks). - I think Club Zombie is quite a good card for wall decks. Intercept if you need it, if not blood gain. Great if you don't want to take any actions. To Peter: Unfortunately your Harrod + Nosferatu Hosting idea is flawed. Remember that the uncontrolled region is unordered. So even if you use 100 master phase actions in a row on Nosferatu Hosting, you could hypothetically end up looking at the same card every single time. And knowing your luck it'll probably be the same Lithrac each time... ;-)

christi...@gmail.com wrote: > as a minion card, am sure I�m forgetting something, but I would say > a clan exlcusive twaker would be, like Nosferatu Performance Art Where is Robyn? She used Nosferatu Performance Art to blow up **Alexandra** for the tournament win, and I've heard she's blow up lots of Toreador using this card. [ quoted text not captured ]

Robert Goudie wrote: > Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: >> librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: >>> Minion >> >> Tortured Confessions. Worst card ever. Not 'cause the effect is >> actually that bad, I mean, yeah, it is never horrible to look at >> someone's hand. But the card uses *so* many words to be really >> underwhelming, considering the blood cost *and* high general cost >> of sending someone to torpor. > > I agree. Even that awesome art isn't enough to keep it off of my list. Art owned by Kevin J. Mergen! You want to buy it? :) [ quoted text not captured ]

Klaital wrote: > Master: Well there is hell of a lot of useless crap masters in the old > sets, but I think I will go with Last Stand. The one time I have > actually seen that card played, it made the predator of the person > playing it to win the game rather directly. It should be played in every heavy bleed deck, and if it goes off you're looking at bleeding your prey(s) for 40 or more. It's AMAZING. [ quoted text not captured ]

Crypt How has this not been mentioned? Nakova, Advocate of Golconda . A vampire's who two best traits are being able to Freak Drive after any action she tries gets blocked, and punishing an opposing vampire after burning her in combat deserves mention. Hell anytime your best trait only kicks in when you are losing, there is a problem. Oh, she can be an Illusions of the Kindred target at inferior, then Burning Wrath Master With all the great mentions above, I'll choose a card I have seen played. Cairo Int'l Airport. How, in any way, does this lead to victory? You get it out, breed a ton of your own vampires. Banish some vampire, your little minions remove it's blood. All the while you Con Boon to stay alive. In the end you MAY get a VP. While your grand prey gets the rest. Infact, your best chance at victory is if you eother misplay the whole deck and just bleed for 1 multiple times, or never draw a Banish... Minion Twisting the Knife. Then choose the absolute Worst. Summon the Abyss. And not because it is a BAD card, but anything that costs 3 blood had better do something at the superior level than add one stealth to the damn action. >Minion: Death of My Conscience enough said >Matt Well I know what deck is going to LA next trip I make it there.

On Dec 4, 12:47 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun. > > Three categories: > > Crypt > > Master > > Minion > > Then choose the absolute Worst. Feel free to state your > case in all your selections; or let the card's own > odiousness speak for itself. > > May the worst card win (lose?). > > best - > > chris Off the top of my head: Crypt: Jacob, The Glitch Master: Contingency Planning Minion: Border Skirmish

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:fbec1f57-fdc1-4ffd...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com... On Dec 4, 4:09 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > > It helps immensely with Parity Shift. > > Sure. But so do other cards that are actually worth playing with. > Heck, even Secret Horde is more likely to pay you back in the long run > than Club Zombie is. Hey, that's a thought: how 'bout Sniper Rifles with Parity Shift?!? Use the Sniper Rifles to get below the Parity Shift limit and to wipe the opposing votes off the table. Use the Parity Shift to fund the Sniper Rifles. This is interesting enough I have to suppose it's been thought of elsewhere. Anyone have any experience with it? Fred

On Dec 4, 4:52 pm, Obtenebration <obtenebrat...@obtenebration.org> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] I'll be happy to be proven wrong. come on down Matt

On Dec 4, 5:33 pm, Raziel <angelofc...@gmail.com> wrote: > Miguel is not that bad. Make him red list, burn him and collect > trophies. He have no combat discipline, so cant defend, and you can > use deflection to bleed with him. Ok, he sucks. Well, except that he is only your predator's for your predator's turn. So you need to make him red list, then your predator needs to steal him, and then you need to block him, and then you need to burn him. Yeah, I'll get right on that... -Peter

On Dec 4, 7:03 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > Seriously, though, "play a deck with a bunch of Deflection" was actually > my thought. If your predator wants to spend pool using him to bleed > you, won't a few deflections discourage the habit pretty quickly? Sure. Except you could just play a lot of Deflections in a deck full of DOM anyway, and *not* give your predator an extra minion with DOM and +1 bleed every turn. And then lose him to diablere anyway. After paying 6 pool for him. -Peter

On Dec 4, 5:07 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: > Now I've got it. You play a deck with a bunch of Deflection, get Miguel, > get someone sent to torpor. Get Miguel stolen so he eats that guy and > burns in the bloodhunt... > > ...and then you play Redline for the first time in any game of vtes > ever!!! Ooh! Now we are talking! -Peter

On Dec 4, 7:32 pm, "christianpas...@gmail.com" <christianpas...@gmail.com> wrote: > Augustus, thats my final vote. > > in the masters department, I would say blood puppy Blood Puppy isn't great, but at least can actually pay off in a real blocky deck--have some sort of killy Tzimisce deck. Throw Blood Puppy into play after you have Smiling Jack in play. What are they gonna do? Get both? > as a minion card, am sure I´m forgetting something, but I would say a > clan exlcusive twaker would be, like Nosferatu Performance Art Nosferatu Performance art is actually pretty good. I mean, yeah, relatively high opportunity cost, but take an action to put Alexandra or Anson in torpor? And then diablerize them with a weenie? Not horrible. Yeah, not incredibly likely to come up, but when it does, it is likely going to pay off pretty well. -Peter

On Dec 4, 7:33 pm, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang...@yahoo.com> wrote: > - I think Club Zombie is quite a good card for wall decks. Intercept > if you need it, if not blood gain. Great if you don't want to take any > actions. Heh, yeah, Club Zombie is actually not *that* bad, but man, the 4 pool cost is just like saying "Hey! Every predator is a Malk 94 deck now!". > To Peter: Unfortunately your Harrod + Nosferatu Hosting idea is > flawed. Remember that the uncontrolled region is unordered. So even if > you use 100 master phase actions in a row on Nosferatu Hosting, you > could hypothetically end up looking at the same card every single > time. And knowing your luck it'll probably be the same Lithrac each > time... ;-) Noooooooooooooooo!!! Damnation. Oh, wait. That makes Nosferatu Hosting even more specifically designed to be horible. Yeah. That seals it. My vote for worst Master card is, in fact, Nosferatu Hosting. -Peter

On Dec 4, 7:52 pm, Obtenebration <obtenebrat...@obtenebration.org> wrote: > Crypt > How has this not been mentioned? Nakova, Advocate of Golconda . There are tons of entertaining, if not actually good, decks that involve Nakova lighting herself on fire. And to be fair to her, when she was printed, apparently Pot/For was a ridiculously powerful discipline combo, and she was one of the few minions who had it. > Master > With all the great mentions above, I'll choose a card I have seen > played. Cairo Int'l Airport. How, in any way, does this lead to > victory? Brainwash. It really kills your first prey really bad. -Peter

There's been a bunch of hate for Jacob the Glitch in this thread. Have people really seen his disadvantage come into play during actual games? The few times I've seen him played, no one ever bothered to spend an MPA and a master card to activate his disadvantage, because doing so was never better than playing the master cards that they put into their decks to actually, y'know, play for the effects on the cards. John Eno

librarian <auct...@superfuncards.com> writes: > Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun. > > Three categories: > > Crypt Twisting the Knife. There are other worthy candidates, like Eyes of the Dead, but Twisting wins because of the extra annoyance of taking up a valuable rare slot in a booster. > Master Pere Lachaise, France > Minion It's a three-way split. Most unplayable: Miguel Cordovera Worst disappointment: Augustus Giovanni Worst ally: Werewolf Pack And then the missing categories... Event: Becoming of Ennoia. Was only playable in the Gehenna pre-release tournament, where everybody wanted to try out those shiny new Gehenna cards. Has not been seen since, not even in Gehenna decks. Conviction: No award. There are only three, and they all are awesome. HG

h...@iki.fi (Janne Hägglund) writes: > librarian <auct...@superfuncards.com> writes: > > > Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun. > > > > Three categories: > > > > Crypt > > Twisting the Knife. There are other worthy candidates, like Eyes of the > Dead, but Twisting wins because of the extra annoyance of taking up a > valuable rare slot in a booster. > > > > Master > > Pere Lachaise, France > > > > Minion > > It's a three-way split. > > Most unplayable: Miguel Cordovera > > Worst disappointment: Augustus Giovanni > > Worst ally: Werewolf Pack Argh! Brain glitch: "Crypt" category should be "Minion" and "Minion" should be "Crypt", and lose the Werewolf Pack. I just read "Minion" and thought it meant minions instead of minion cards... HG

[ quoted text not captured ] I agree... And on the off-chance that someone decides to clear your hand jam for you once in a while, I still don't see that it's a big enough detriment to make you not want to play with a 6-cap with THA that only costs you 2 pool and 2 transfers to bring into play. Crazy talk! His special will get you killed against a Harbingers predator. That's about it. Are people that scared of Harbingers?

i'm going to separate Events from Minions, just because i believe Ennoia is a deserving honorable mention for how Cthulhu-esque it is to wait for the stars to align right. Vampire: Feo Ramos. no real potential for new and unique combos. he's a generic and wholly replaceable weenie with aus. there's no weirdness or comborrific-ness such as extra disciplines for capacity, or funky blood or cap flipping/morphing, or weird title destroying specials, or a host of other things. it's just a small vampire with aus. that's it. he has zero potential to stand out, as it stands now, or will have in the future. completely forgettable and replaceable. but that's not the problem. the problem is that his penalty kills the basic functionality of vampires: actions. even his first action can be destroyed, quite easily and to little detriment, by 1 blood off of any older Sabbat vampire. playing a table and seeing not even 1 Sabbat vampire is hard enough, and anything over 1 is to find. not even the Fida'i lose their first action -- every other action, yes, until you pay for them -- but not their first. this means Feo can be locked away early enough to be no real threat (which is one of the huge advantages of early, small minions), and then booted aside in combat like other non-combat weenies. his cap and disciplines brings nothing new to the table, therefore he has to current or future potential. and his special can leave him neutered from the beginning, therefore denying the initial utility every other basic vampire enjoys. after that, he's a resource sink to bring him up to a functionality that's easily available elsewhere. Feo Ramos Clan: Pander (group 3) Capacity: 1 Disciplines: aus Sabbat: During your untap phase, any older Sabbat vampire controlled by another Methuselah can burn 1 blood to tap Feo. Rarity: Anarchs:U2 Master: that's a tie between Pere Lachaise and Threestar Cab. both cost way too much pool to bring out, first off. and then they impose so many restrictions to recoup investment. Pere Lachaise might just edge the Cab Company out alone just on the clause to burn it by an action. however, unlike the relatively simple and common effect that TCC offers, if again the stars align right Pere Lachaise can have a much better theoretical pay off. 3 pool for mere crushable dreams of a cheaper big cap (recouping to zero after the 4th turn for a 3 cap), or 3 pool for a blood/pool 2 more turns later (recouping to zero after the 6th turn)? still, the burn clause just might hand this whole booby prize to Pere Lachaise. Pere Lachaise, France Type: Master Cost: 3 pool Master: unique location. You may move a vampire from your ash heap to this card, face down. You may use a master phase action to move 1 blood from the blood bank to this vampire. If the blood on the vampire equals the vampire's capacity, place the vampire in the ready region at the end of the master phase and burn this card. Any minion can burn this card as a (D) action and send the vampire on it directly to the ash heap. Rarity: DS:U2 Threestar Cab Company Type: Master Cost: 3 pool Master: unique location. Hunting ground. Tap during your master phase to move a blood from the blood bank to this card. Tap during your untap phase to move 1 blood from this card to your pool or to a ready vampire you control. A vampire can gain blood from only one hunting ground card each turn. Rarity: KMW:PAn Minion: there's cards that, again, require such an opportunity cost to find a target that you might as well count your waiting time by solar eclipses than turns. they just sit in your hand waiting to hose that one dear, dear target that may occur every other month. i'll call these cards A. card A cards are littered throughout the game. Weakness, Violation of Trust, Purity of the Beast, etc. they are horrible hosers that'll rarely see play, leaving you disappointed -- if only they wereflexible like Canine Hordes you might splash it in a deck. it's a reward too long to wait for to bother reaching for. then there's cards that produce otherwise accessible effects for too many restrictions or penalties. they are often so micro-refined as to be negligibly advantageous. they are "claused to death": the target is there, but the restrictions or costs stop action upon it. i'll call these cards B. card B cards are prolific. Unnatural Disaster, Poison the Well of Life, Eyes of the Dead, Tortured Confession, Phobia, Mehemet of the Ahl-i-Batin, etc. they are like a gut punch; doing something you can already get, but for too much work. it's a reward too far away or costly to bother reaching for. finally there's the cards that when played leave you empty with anticipation. even when you pay for it, it doesn't do much of anything. i'll call these cards C. card C cards are a bit rare. basically it's trying to find cards that produce an effect so tame for their cost, be it in requirements or restrictions, that it is equivalent to say "play this card. it does nothing." Weakness, Phobia, Eyes of the Dead, Tara the Hollow One, Werewolf Pack, and Tortured Confession are pretty prime examples. but for my bang-for-the-buck suckitude, scraping chrome off a trailer hitch (giving a nod to class C finalists everywhere), has to be a tie between Tara and Phobia. Tara actively hurts you for a cost of 3 pool to sit like a lump waiting to die easily. Phobia goes into play and then has to wait 5 more turns (easily 1/3 of an average VtES game) to even hope of going off just once. Tara has future potential in that she's a Mage, allies might get more cool toys like Leech, and maybe one day her "burn weapons on your Ravnos to gain them blood" might actually end up in a new combo. Phobia has zero hope beyond errata. Tara, The Hollow One (Mage) Type: Ally Requires: Ravnos Cost: 3 pool Unique mage with 2 life. 0 strength, 0 bleed. Tara may strike for 1R damage. Tara may burn any equipment card on a Ravnos as a (D) action. The Ravnos gains blood equal to the cost of the equipment card. (Ignore excess blood.) If the equipment card has no cost, then the Ravnos gains 1 blood. Rarity: DS:U Phobia Type: Action Requires: Serpentis [ser] (D) Put this card on any vampire; you still control this card. During your master phase, you may put a phobia counter on this card. If a minion you control blocks the vampire with this card, you may burn five counters from this card before range is chosen to end combat. [SER] As above, but with +1 stealth. Rarity: AH:U5 FN:PS Events: there can be only one. it is so beautiful in its horror. it has perhaps one of the most challenging requirements in the game. you have to wait for the stars to align like any hoser, but you need 2, (count 'em, 2! ah ah ah! - The Count of Sesame Street) Events -- one of the rarer card types to be played. and to throw restrictions atop requirements, you need Events with a particular trait at that. it still has a penalty cost atop that: DNR next untap phase! then, if that wasn't enough, the reward is a minor punishment to other meths -- 1 unpreventable damage on 1 vampire per meth's turn -- except it also comes with another penalty cost, it also hits you. and if that wasn't enough, it hoses just 1 other card... it has outrageous opportunity cost. it also has restrictions up the wazoo. its reward is lame, and also hurts you. and to top it all off, it's also a hoser... with a restriction so tight it must name its one and only target. requirements, restrictions, penalties, and little to no reward, it's all A, B, & C in 1 card... sheer genius! Becoming of Ennoia Type: Event Gehenna. Do not replace until your next discard phase. Requires at least two other Gehenna cards controlled by other Methuselahs in play. During each Methuselah's untap phase, he or she chooses a ready vampire he or she controls. The chosen vampire takes 1 unpreventable damage. Earth Meld cards cost 2 additional blood. Rarity: Gehenna:R

On 5 Dez., 14:16, Azel <opaop...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Phobia > Type: Action > Requires: Serpentis > [ser] (D) Put this card on any vampire; you still control this card. > During your master phase, you may put a phobia counter on this card. > If a minion you control blocks the vampire with this card, you may > burn five counters from this card before range is chosen to end > combat. > [SER] As above, but with +1 stealth. > Rarity: AH:U5 FN:PS I think it has already been mention in the 13 years of its existence. :) During playtesting of AH, Phobia gained a counter during *any* master phase, not just yours. At the time, it was deemed too powerful by the design crew (note: the same who created Arika, orig. Thougths Betrayed, PTO, RtI, orig. Tomb of Rameses III, etc.). I'm of the believe however, that it would be quite fine that way nowadays. You need to get a bigger reward later on for a card that doesn't do anything the moment you play it.

> Esteem. Absolutely useless. If you want the edge, just bleed. I can see Esteem being playing with Enticement. Or, um, a rush deck with Hrotwolf :) Surely Twisting the Knife is worse than Esteem.

Smiling Jack XXX wrote: > librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > > Minion: Border Skirmish Peal, Please post your Border Skirmish deck. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

On 4 pro, 23:07, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: > On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Peter D Bakija wrote: > > Yeah, see, he has good disciplines (AUS, DOM, POT, THA) and is > > reasonably cheap (6 cap). But unless you are using enough Diamond > > Thunderbolts that you always have one when you need it, he is likely > > going to kill you (or himself due to the horrible guilt of > > diablere...). > > Now I've got it. You play a deck with a bunch of Deflection, get Miguel, > get someone sent to torpor. Get Miguel stolen so he eats that guy and > burns in the bloodhunt... > > ...and then you play Redline for the first time in any game of vtes > ever!!! Well, in fact, I actually saw Redline being played twice. In one week. And few months after that there was still a lot of noise around each diablerie and bloodhunt. Arguments like "do not let him burn, or he will just take it with the Redline! We all know he plays them!" we around all the time.

[ quoted text not captured ] I play with Jacob the Glitch A L O T, and I very rarely see anyone ever use his special. ...but then again the lifespan of a JtG is about 2 turns before I social ladder him into Anastaz di Zagreb or Uta Kovak.

[ quoted text not captured ] It still starts off bad, and gets progressively worse as the number of players dwindles.

> > Master > > PereLachaise, France I don't see how people hate this card. This is how you get Augustus Giovanni into play. 1: Have Augustus in your uncontrolled region 2: Play Pere Lachaise on him 3: Take action to burn Pere Lachaise which burns Augustus Giovanni 4: Possesss Augustus Giovanni into play It's great for a high cap Possession deck.

[ quoted text not captured ] What am I missing here? "You may move a vampire from your ash heap to this card, face down." How do you play it on him if he's in your uncontrolled region?

[ quoted text not captured ] Nope. Re-read Esteem. It's only usable on a (D) action directed at the methuselah who has the Edge. Everytime someone brings up how crappy Esteem is, somebody mentions Enticement. This is the first I've heard Hrothulf. But both of those require you to have the Edge, and even if they could be targeted at your own stuff (they can't), it *still* wouldn't be a (D) action against the methuselah who has the Edge. Really, it's just that bad. If it was "Only usable after a successful action. You gain the Edge.", it would probably be a usable card... maybe overpowered with Enticement, maybe not.. As it is, it sucks. Balls.

On Dec 4, 12:47 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun. > > Three categories: > > Crypt Hukros, a vampire that just is aweful. Cost: 10 pool Turns to get into play: 3 Multi-Act: Nope Pass Votes: Nope Bloat: Nope Bleed for alot: Nope Trump Combat: Nope Block D-Actions not directed at you: Nope Pretty much there is nothing that you can do with him that you can't do with just about any given vampire in the game. > Master Aggressive Tactics. Cost: 2 pool Inflict Pool Damage: Nope Enhance your minions: Nope Gain Pool: Nope Fragile: Yes Sucktastic! > Minion By far the worst minion card is Phobia, and it has been beaten to death. The next worst card is Mummify which actually detrimental to your game to play.

On 5 Dez., 17:14, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > > Minion > > By far the worst minion card is Phobia, and it has been beaten to > death. > > The next worst card is Mummify which actually detrimental to your game > to play. Here, again, the playtest version was different. When played and vampire went to torpor, prey also burned 1 pool. That was actually... cool. :)

[ quoted text not captured ] Nevermind, I completely misread the card. I thought it did something useful like burn a vampire in your uncontrolled region. Thanks for keeping me from building a deck around it.

[ quoted text not captured ] You are actually right on the dwindling effect the longer the game takes. However, it woud least have been *playable* and not just an action without effect.

On 4 Dez., 22:53, Robert Goudie <robertt.gou...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Dec 4, 12:53 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > > > On Dec 4, 1:47 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > > > Minion > > > Tortured Confessions. Worst card ever. Not 'cause the effect is > > actually that bad, I mean, yeah, it is never horrible to look at > > someone's hand. But the card uses *so* many words to be really > > underwhelming, considering the blood cost *and* high general cost of > > sending someone to torpor. > > I agree. Even that awesome art isn't enough to keep it off of my > list. > > Speaking of the high general cost of sending someone to torpor.... > > How about Minor Boon? You have to wait for someone else to send your > predator's vamp to torpor OR you have to have enough block tech and > combat tech to knock the vamp down yourself. Then you have you use > Minor Boon and your own master phase action to prop the vamp back up. > If you have all of that tech working for you, your predator isn't > likely to be bleeding you much anyway. And if you're Kevin Mergen > you'd probably pull all of this off succesfully and lock down your > predator's bleed deck with Minor Boon across the board and then he or > she would transfer out. Ugh. > > -Robert Worse, still: Lesser Boon. Seems *pretty* weak and cornercase. Sufferst from 7-lines syndrom as well.

[ quoted text not captured ] ....and Fame cost the prey of the vampire going to torpor 3 pool instead of the controller

> Lazar Dobrescu is pretty bad, but at least he's a 3-cap. Lazar Dobrescu is NOT bad. He's a given vampire in all my old Ravnos crypts. It's not that his special ability is a gamewinner but as long as you bring him out early it's a great way to piss off your prey and sometimes slow him down a little.

On 4 Dec, 19:47, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun. > > Three categories: > > Crypt Sonja Blue, 5, dom pot CEL FOR PRE, Ventrue, 4, [KMW:U] Independent: Gain 4 pool when Sonja is moved to the ready region in your influenve phase. Sonja may remove a vampire's title as a (D) action. She may block as an ally (but remains a vampire in combat). During your prey`s discard phase, your predator may burn 1 pool to move Sonja to his or her ready region. If Sonja leaves play, remove her from the game. She's so awesome and so crappy at the same time. > > Master Blood Puppy, Master, 3 pool, R , [Jyhad:R, V:TES:R, CE:R] Unique master. Move 3 blood from the blood bank to the Blood Puppy. During your untap phase, you can move a blood from the Puppy to your pool, move a blood from the blood bank to the Puppy, or burn the Puppy to move all its blood to your pool. Any minion can burn the Puppy and all the blood on it as a (D) action. Hated it since day 1, never got the card and even with the change it still sucks. > > Minion Twisting the Knife, Combat, 1 blood, Potence, R , [Sabbat:R, SW:R] [pot] Only usable as damage from a hand or melee weapon strike is resolved; only usable if this vampire inflicts 3 or more damage. He or she inflicts an additional point of damage. Only one Twisting the Knife may be played by a vampire during a strike phase. [POT] As above, with an optional press. I'm surprised noone mentioned this card, worst rare ever printed and then reprinted. /Ivan

On Dec 5, 11:14 am, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > Hukros, a vampire that just is aweful. Yeah, not great, but a weird discipline spread that probably fits in some deck somewhere. I'm firmly standing on the platform of vampires just having not enough disciplines or lame specials or whatever isn't enough to make them awful. Just being short a few points of disciplines isn't enough to really, truly suck. The vampires that are really bad are the ones with the really shooting you in the foot specials. Miguel is currently the leader. Until someone discovers a really clever way to make him work. > By far the worst minion card is Phobia, and it has been beaten to > death. Yeah, that card is, in fact, horrible. > The next worst card is Mummify which actually detrimental to your game > to play. Well, to be fair to Mummify, when it was printed, it was actually moderately useful--Fame your own guy, Mummify to torpor, your prey loses 3 pool. Lather, rinse, repeat. -Peter

On Dec 4, 10:47 am, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun. > > Three categories: > > Crypt > > Master > > Minion > > Then choose the absolute Worst. Feel free to state your > case in all your selections; or let the card's own > odiousness speak for itself. > > May the worst card win (lose?). > > best - > > chris Since it's difficult to define what worst means and/or a whole bunch of cards effectively tie, I kind of like trying to pick out the cards that hurt you the most if you actually choose to play with them. Sure, a card such as Phobia is essentially taking an action to do nothing, but that doesn't likely substantially increase my chances of losing as say, Walks-With-Might might. Miguel is a good candidate for vampire by that criteria. As to library cards, eh, I'm too lazy for a change to look.

Myrdin <smurf...@gmail.com> writes: > On 4 Dec, 19:47, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > > Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun. > > > > Three categories: > > > > Crypt > Sonja Blue, 5, dom pot CEL FOR PRE, Ventrue, 4, [KMW:U] > Independent: Gain 4 pool when Sonja is moved to the ready region in > your influenve phase. Sonja may remove a vampire's title as a (D) > action. She may block as an ally (but remains a vampire in combat). > During your prey`s discard phase, your predator may burn 1 pool to > move Sonja to his or her ready region. If Sonja leaves play, remove > her from the game. > > She's so awesome and so crappy at the same time. There's an actual tournament winning deck that's based on Sonja Blue: http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k9pbla1 > > Master > Blood Puppy, Master, 3 pool, R , [Jyhad:R, V:TES:R, CE:R] > Unique master. Move 3 blood from the blood bank to the Blood Puppy. > During your untap phase, you can move a blood from the Puppy to your > pool, move a blood from the blood bank to the Puppy, or burn the Puppy > to move all its blood to your pool. Any minion can burn the Puppy and > all the blood on it as a (D) action. > > Hated it since day 1, never got the card and even with the change it > still sucks. > > > > > Minion > Twisting the Knife, Combat, 1 blood, Potence, R , [Sabbat:R, SW:R] > [pot] Only usable as damage from a hand or melee weapon strike is > resolved; only usable if this vampire inflicts 3 or more damage. He or > she inflicts an additional point of damage. Only one Twisting the > Knife may be played by a vampire during a strike phase. > [POT] As above, with an optional press. > > I'm surprised noone mentioned this card, worst rare ever printed and > then reprinted. I did, and cited the rarity as the reason I chose it. Thanks for reminding of the reprinting, though. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/50b9ccafdd577c16 HG

I have this amazing idea. I will create a deck there I plan to recruit Faithful Servants and then go to torpor with my vampires. When my fellow Methuselahs will try to diablerize my vamp I can play Eyes of the Dead to totally ruin their plans when trying to stealth my blocking attempts. For those moments I choose not to block, I know I have a backup plan in form of Pere Lachaise! And the real killer; also if I choose not to block, Patrizia Giovanni can get those Servants back !! TWDA here I come! Robert

[ quoted text not captured ] Sure you could play it with Return to Innocence.

[ quoted text not captured ] Even if you were serious, and even if that would be a playable deck, it's made instantly better if you replace Eyes of the Dead with The Deadliest Sin. Yeah, Eyes of the Dead is really THAT bad. There's a discplineless card that's flat out better in every way. That's also why Twisting the Knife is so bad. It's not as clear as Eyes of the Dead, because TtK offers a press at superior and has a slightly different (harder to fulfill in general) condition for it to be played. But to add insult to injury, it actually costs a blood, which I never remember until I look up the card and realize just how horrible it is. Mummify is bad, but it's not that bad simply because it offers a free S:CE and untap to serpentis. Usually ser is matched up with pre, so you're better off spending 1 blood for Majesty. But I've actually made a deck with weenie settites that use Mummify for combat defense, and while the deck isn't great, Mummify actually is the best card for the deck.

On Dec 5, 3:34 pm, Myrdin <smurfal...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Blood Puppy, Master, 3 pool, R , [Jyhad:R, V:TES:R, CE:R] > Unique master. Move 3 blood from the blood bank to the Blood Puppy. > During your untap phase, you can move a blood from the Puppy to your > pool, move a blood from the blood bank to the Puppy, or burn the Puppy > to move all its blood to your pool. Any minion can burn the Puppy and > all the blood on it as a (D) action. > > Hated it since day 1, never got the card and even with the change it > still sucks. > Blood Puppy only costs 2 pool now. And I still contend that it is useful poolgain in a wall deck, alongside the Powerbases. I mean, it's not a *good* card, but I don't think it's a bad card either now that they reduced the cost.

On Dec 6, 1:29 am, h...@iki.fi (Janne Hägglund) wrote: > > She's so awesome and so crappy at the same time. > > There's an actual tournament winning deck that's based on Sonja Blue: > > http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k9pbla1 Yeah, see, Sonja Blue has enough going for her that building a whole deck around her is worth the effort. I mean, not worth the effort enough such that she is tearing up the tournament scene or anything, but enough that people try--she has FOR CEL so she can take a hundred actions a turn *and* she only costs 1 pool to play. Make a deck with, like, 6 or 7 of her, and include a dozen Diamond Thunderbolts and you have a deck. Miguel? What is he doing that another mid cap with DOM isn't doing? Other than getting stolen, having all his blood pulled off with Heidleburg, or diablerizing someone? -Peter

On Dec 6, 9:19 am, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > Sure you could play it with Return to Innocence. Well, yes. But, ya know, when looking at bad cards, it is really only fair to look at them in the context of what they were released into. Yeah, some cards have *always* been bad. Some cards started out kind of sketchy and corner case, but had a place in the world, but then were *made* bad by the game changing around them. Cards like Mummify (which had an arguable strategy around it when it was printed, with old Fame) and Nakova (who was one of the very few Pot/For vampires in the game of a reasonable capacity when she came out) suck now, sure, but when they were originally printed, they had something to recommend them. Phobia, on the other hand, always sucked :-) -Peter

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:a7f438b3-7b21-4be2...@o10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com... > On Dec 4, 7:03 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > > Seriously, though, "play a deck with a bunch of Deflection" was actually > > my thought. If your predator wants to spend pool using him to bleed > > you, won't a few deflections discourage the habit pretty quickly? > > Sure. Except you could just play a lot of Deflections in a deck full > of DOM anyway, and *not* give your predator an extra minion with DOM > and +1 bleed every turn. Why? That's not as a good - you aren't as likely to get bled by your predator to have a +1 bleed to deflect. If you take pains to make sure you have Deflections in your hand, it's comforting to know your Predator will have a good +1 bleeder that he'll be tempted to use. On the other hand, if he starts seeing the problem and stops using Miguel to bleed, that means you have Miguel's advantages without his disadvantages, which I assert, is also good. > And then lose him to diablere anyway. After paying 6 pool for him. Um, that part's just a tad speculative. :-P Fred

"Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message news:YjjSm.10476$Lq5....@newsfe20.iad... > "Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message > news:fbec1f57-fdc1-4ffd...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com... > On Dec 4, 4:09 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: >> > It helps immensely with Parity Shift. >> >> Sure. But so do other cards that are actually worth playing with. >> Heck, even Secret Horde is more likely to pay you back in the long run >> than Club Zombie is. > > Hey, that's a thought: how 'bout Sniper Rifles with Parity Shift?!? > Use the Sniper Rifles to get below the Parity Shift limit and to > wipe the opposing votes off the table. Use the Parity Shift to > fund the Sniper Rifles. > > This is interesting enough I have to suppose it's been thought of > elsewhere. Anyone have any experience with it? Damn it, I meant Assault Rifles! (Stupid brain. STUPID, stupid brain!!!)

"BobbyDoc" <robert_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:828fe98f-9716-43a1...@r1g2000vbn.googlegroups.com... >I have this amazing idea. I will create a deck there I plan to recruit > Faithful Servants and then go to torpor with my vampires. > When my fellow Methuselahs will try to diablerize my vamp I can play > Eyes of the Dead to totally ruin their plans when trying to stealth my > blocking attempts. Wow! Maybe it's a sign of my breathtaking incompetance as a deckbuilder but I actually tried to build a Faithful-Servant-torped-minion-deck. Of course, using Eyes of the Dead and jedi mind tricks to lure my opponents into a trap didn't have anything to do with it. It was more about pure bloat: secure your torped minion with Carver's Meat Packing, slap Blood Dolls/Vessels onto it, and reap more blood from tapping the CMPaS. I never did quite figure out a good deck but I suspect there could be something there for a more talented deckbuilder. Fred

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:9eb8186c-642f-4d87...@o23g2000vbi.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] I thought they'd issued the errata on Fame long before Ancient Hearts was printed. My memory was that Fame was one of the first bits of errata that came out in this game. I don't think it took them very long to figure out the problem with how original Fame worked. (And it was a problem even in the context of just the cards in Jyhad, let alone any expansions.) Fred

On Dec 6, 11:51 am, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > I thought they'd issued the errata on Fame long before Ancient Hearts > was printed. I think it was errated unique very early (possibly). I'm pretty sure it didn't become what it is now till 7/7/7 (I remember spending an awful lot of time discussing the implications of New Fame on Rush decks...) So I'm pretty sure that when Mummify was printed, Mummify/ Fame was a good ousting mechanism. Kind of. -Peter

On Dec 6, 10:40 am, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > Damn it, I meant Assault Rifles! > > (Stupid brain. STUPID, stupid brain!!!) Oh, heh, yeah, that is a pretty common rush archetype--Nosferatu royalty disguising out Assault Rifles and Parity Shifting back or something. The current good one is the one that uses Dimitra (obf for the Disguised, CEL/FOR for multi action and general combat support, Justicar for 2nd and Parity Shift). I mean, it has a lot of moving parts and a lot of opportunity to fall on its face, but in general, a solid idea. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] History of Fame: 19940924 Multiples are not cumulative. 19941128 Multiples are cumulative. 19950413 Is unique. 19950801 V:TES: Is unique. * 19980707 The controller, not her prey, burns 3 pool. 20001031 SW: The controller, not her prey, burns 3 pool. * 19960529 AH (Mummify) printed.

On Dec 6, 12:27 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > History of Fame: > 19940924 Multiples are not cumulative. > 19941128 Multiples are cumulative. > 19950413 Is unique. > 19950801 V:TES: Is unique. > * > 19980707 The controller, not her prey, burns 3 pool. > 20001031 SW: The controller, not her prey, burns 3 pool. > > * 19960529 AH (Mummify) printed. Yaa! Good to know I'm not insane. Well, not on this front, at least. Wasn't 7/7/7 in '97 and not '98? Or was it actually '98 and is is just 7/7 and not 7/7/7? That is easy to misremember :-) Thanks, -Peter

On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 10:13:27 -0800 (PST), Peter D Bakija wrote: >Wasn't 7/7/7 in '97 and not '98? Or was it actually '98 and is is just >7/7 and not 7/7/7? That is easy to misremember :-) All of the upheaval happened in 1998. http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR6-23.htm http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR7-7.htm http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR9-28.htm 7/7 refers to 98. See also: http://www.thelasombra.com/rules.htm Carpe noctem. The Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com Your best source of V:TES information. Now also selling boxes and individual cards.

On Dec 6, 1:15 pm, The Lasombra <TheLasom...@hotmail.com> wrote: > All of the upheaval happened in 1998. > > http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR6-23.htm > > http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR7-7.htm > > http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR9-28.htm > > 7/7 refers to 98. Ok, cool. So for the span of 2 years, Mummify was a reasonable, if kinda corner case, ousting mechanism (i.e. Fame your own guy, do something, get blocked, Mummify to torpor and make your prey lose 3 pool). So I call Mummify exempt from "Worst. Card. Ever." consideration, as it started out at least somewhat useful, and only got horrible 'cause the game changed under it. Phobia is still open game, however :-) -Peter

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:hfgpj1$s3t$1...@news.eternal-september.org... [ quoted text not captured ] Oh, that's what the early errata was: the uniqueness thing. (I didn't remember anything about the cumulative/not cumulative stuff.) It seems so hard to believe, now, that putting Fame on your own minion would be good for ousting your prey for that long a time. Fred

On Dec 4, 3:06 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > librarian wrote: > > Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun. > > > Three categories: > > > Crypt > > I've always hated Tusk. He is a much weaker Grendel. > > Harrod is really bad. > > Lazar Dobrescu is pretty bad, but at least he's a 3-cap. > > > Master > > Pere Lachaise, France is seriously rotten. I dare you to use it. > > > Minion > > Probably Goth Band. > > Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas > "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles > you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* > "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier > Please visit VTESville daily!http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ > Please buy my cards!http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html Seriously, hate for Goth Band, have you no poetry in your soul? And I shall take up the Pere Lachaise, France gauntlet, I'll probably fail but hey could be fun.

On Dec 6, 3:08 am, BobbyDoc <robert_dokto...@hotmail.com> wrote: > I have this amazing idea. I will create a deck there I plan to recruit > Faithful Servants and then go to torpor with my vampires. > When my fellow Methuselahs will try to diablerize my vamp I can play > Eyes of the Dead to totally ruin their plans when trying to stealth my > blocking attempts. > TWDA here I come! > Robert To tease squidalot at Orgins two years ago I had concocted a highly improbable deck that used lots of faithful servants to gain pool. We have this continuing argument where he tells me my decks suck, tells me how to build better decks, and then I ignore him to play some idiotic baltimore purge deck or whatever.. So the deck would be weenines that went and got faithful servants and then got themselves into torpor with daring the dawn, or day operation, whatever where they would be protected by my own hostage counters of Carver's meat packing plant. Carvers would generate blood for whatever vampire of mine was not in torpor and vessles would suck blood off off the vampires in torpor. I amused myself in a Dark Soverigns draft at Darkbob's place afterwards by drafting like 3-4 faithful servants for this totally awesome deck that did nothing but generate pool. I was still trying to figure out how to oust people though as it involved putting all but one of my vampires into torpor and keeping them there Some things though are probably better left unmentioned. John P. Winnipeg

On Dec 6, 10:43 am, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > "BobbyDoc" <robert_dokto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message [ quoted text not captured ] See? I should read the whole thread before posting. Fred wanted to do the same stuff with faithful servants that I did. That's kinda scary. We probably both need help.

On Dec 5, 11:14 am, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote: > On Dec 5, 7:12 am, "Izaak" <nom...@usenet.plz> wrote: > > > > Esteem. Absolutely useless. If you want the edge, just bleed. > > > I can see Esteem being playing with Enticement. Or, um, a rush deck with > > Hrotwolf :) > > > Surely Twisting the Knife is worse than Esteem. > > Nope. Re-read Esteem. It's only usable on a (D) action directed at > the methuselah who has the Edge. Everytime someone brings up how > crappy Esteem is, somebody mentions Enticement. This is the first > I've heard Hrothulf. But both of those require you to have the Edge, > and even if they could be targeted at your own stuff (they can't), it > *still* wouldn't be a (D) action against the methuselah who has the > Edge. > > Really, it's just that bad. If it was "Only usable after a successful > action. You gain the Edge.", it would probably be a usable card... > maybe overpowered with Enticement, maybe not.. As it is, it sucks. > Balls. Form of Corruption. Regaining the Upper Hand. Voter Captivation. Corruption. Cave of Apples. Esteem. Enticement. Nefertiti. Khaytal. Aabbt. Summon the Serpent.

> Crypt Probably Appolonius. Miguel is not horrible at all if you are playing a deck with a lot of flicks. > Master Yeah Nosferatu Hosting is pretty terrible, especially as it requires an MPA. And uncontrolled region is randomised, so you don't even know if you're looking at another copy of the same vampire, or the same card as you saw before. > Minion Ah so many glorious choices! Although it's possibly not as bad as Eyes of the Dead or Tortured Confession or Death of my Conscience, I'm going to share some lovin for Code of Milan Suspended. Required Sabbat. Requires a vote to pass. Does ONE pool damage, and only to the player with the edge, which is the player LEAST likely to have the edge in your minion phase. And does them one pool, whereas you could have played a KRC and throw a bunch of damage wherever the hell you like. I guess the only advantage of it is that if it is down to a 2 player game, it is a damaging vote you can call that won't hurt yourself.

With cards such as; The Deadliest Sin Eyes of the Serpent Mummify Purity of the Beast Realm of the Black Sun, The Conflict of Interests Faithful Servant Goodnight, Sweet Prince Of Noble Blood Pere Lachaise, France Tara, The Hollow One (Mage) Tradition Upheld Ancient Hearts and Dark Sovereigns has the biggest collection of craptastic cards. However, Mercy for the Weak stands out for me. If you have more blood than the opponent (read: few-discipline weenies/midcap can't use it) you can for 2 blood and giving opponent one of them use the most overpowered ability of them all: A non-discipline Strike: Combat Ends! Minion: Patrizia Giovanni, Collector of Secrets (also Ancient Hearts) Master: Aggressive Tactics or Spontaneous Power

[ quoted text not captured ] The fact that it uses Regaining the Upper Hand should be a clue as to how sucky that combo is. If you're playing Form of Corruption/ Regaining, then just play that. Adding Corruptions into the same deck is stupid. Or if you're playing Corruption/Revelation of Ecstasy/Cave of Apples, which is a better deck than the Regaining/Form one (trust me, I tried it... you're way better off using Free States Rant as the vote), then just do that, preferrably with multi-acting. Giving the edge to your prey just so you can play Esteem does not make Esteem good.

On Dec 7, 7:00 am, Chaitan <the.papasm...@gmail.com> wrote: > Master: Aggressive Tactics or Spontaneous Power Really? Spontaneous Power? I mean, not the best card ever, but not a horrible way to give someone one of those hard to get bloodlines disciplines. -Peter

On Sun, 6 Dec 2009, Dasein wrote: > Miguel is not horrible at all if you are playing > a deck with a lot of flicks. A smart predator will realize that's what you want and will take Miguel and do something you don't want done with him, like Bum's Rush a War Ghoul, diablerize and burn, rescue someone from torpor, call a vote, steal your Rack, etc., etc.

[ quoted text not captured ] I'm considering all this Miguel talk to be a challenge to build a deck around him. Lots of Deflections, bleeds, a smattering of Diamond Thunderbolts. Blood Dolls/Vessels so you can - a) keep him at 5 blood for when you Diamond Thunderbolt him, and b) empty him if you're deathly afraid of him being stolen on a particular turn. (and c) gain pool, obviously.) Maybe Redline for when he diabs? Although the free rush that gives him is annoying... But then, there's still the issue of, you can't really stop him being blocked by your prey and tooled when you deflect his bleed. It would work with Daughters of Cacophany and the stealthy opera house... but they don't have any dominate. Hmm... yeah, I guess maybe he really does suck that much. But all of you people hating on Jacob the Glitch are on crack!

On Dec 7, 9:48 am, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: > A smart predator will realize that's what you want and will take Miguel > and do something you don't want done with him, like Bum's Rush a War > Ghoul, diablerize and burn, rescue someone from torpor, call a vote, steal > your Rack, etc., etc. Yeah, exactly--I mean, like, yeah, he has DOM and can bleed at +1, which you can bounce. But instead, why not take him and Hiedelburg all his blood off or go diablerize someone and be outraged at his treachery? He is simply too vulnerable to getting done wrong for 1 pool. Again, maybe there is a super sneaky trick that makes him worth using somewhere somehow. But as just a 6 cap with some not real spectacular disciplines (in the sense that you can get the same disciplines most of the time for 6 pool anyway--Selena--unless you are really using the POT, and there are better places to get POT/DOM or POT/AUS or even POT/ THA that aren't hugely debilitating), just not worth the effort. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] Especially when you combo it with Ian Forestal or Agent of Power for a *superior* hard to get bloodlines discipline... I'd say it's like Club Zombie: useful, but costly. (Sure, Infernal Pact is better and cheaper, but that's only for !Tremere.) HG

Izaak wrote: >> Esteem. Absolutely useless. If you want the edge, just bleed. > > I can see Esteem being playing with Enticement. Or, um, a rush deck with > Hrotwolf :) > > Or with a Spying Mission. best - chris

On 4 Dec, 19:47, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun. > > Then choose the absolute Worst. Feel free to state your > case in all your selections; or let the card's own > odiousness speak for itself. > > Crypt Jacob the Glitch, though I agree that Miguel is a good candidate. > Master Cracking the Wall. I cry every time I get one in the rare slot. > Minion If events are allowed, then Becoming of Ennoia. If not, I think I'll have to go for Walks-With-Might. If he cost 0 pool then maybe he would be worth his drawback.

[ quoted text not captured ] Again, Esteem does not combo with Enticement because you have to have the edge to play Enticement and Esteem can only be played after a (D) action at whoever controls the edge. Card text. Yes, I guess you could put it in a deck with Hrothulf, but it could just be another Freak Drive, so you could bleed, get the edge, untap and rush. Isn't that easier and more useful? I mean, what would you do with Esteem if your predator controlled, say, Hartmut Stover and consistently burned the edge during his discard phase, how would you EVER play Esteem? You wouldn't and couldn't. It's really a worthless card. As for Spying Mission, again it's only going to get you something if you are for whatever reason bleeding whoever controls the edge. And you're putting a card in your deck for that eventuality. There's no way that's a good idea. In summation: Esteem gives you only a small benefit and has a big opportunity cost. It sucks.

[ quoted text not captured ] It might have been marginally more useful in the Eden Storyline. But generally, yes, it's opportunity cost makes it suck. best - chris

Peter D Bakija wrote: > On Dec 4, 7:33 pm, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang...@yahoo.com> > wrote: >> - I think Club Zombie is quite a good card for wall decks. Intercept >> if you need it, if not blood gain. Great if you don't want to take any >> actions. > > Heh, yeah, Club Zombie is actually not *that* bad, but man, the 4 pool > cost is just like saying "Hey! Every predator is a Malk 94 deck now!". > >> To Peter: Unfortunately your Harrod + Nosferatu Hosting idea is >> flawed. Remember that the uncontrolled region is unordered. So even if >> you use 100 master phase actions in a row on Nosferatu Hosting, you >> could hypothetically end up looking at the same card every single >> time. And knowing your luck it'll probably be the same Lithrac each >> time... ;-) > > Noooooooooooooooo!!! > > Damnation. Oh, wait. That makes Nosferatu Hosting even more > specifically designed to be horible. Yeah. That seals it. My vote for > worst Master card is, in fact, Nosferatu Hosting. > I'm not sure it's worse than Spawning Pool, as outlined by Brandon upthread there. best - chris

XZealot wrote: > On Dec 5, 4:02 am, Kushiel <invisibleking...@gmail.com> wrote: >> There's been a bunch of hate for Jacob the Glitch in this thread. Have >> people really seen his disadvantage come into play during actual >> games? The few times I've seen him played, no one ever bothered to >> spend an MPA and a master card to activate his disadvantage, because >> doing so was never better than playing the master cards that they put >> into their decks to actually, y'know, play for the effects on the >> cards. >> > > I play with Jacob the Glitch A L O T, and I very rarely see anyone > ever use his special. > > ...but then again the lifespan of a JtG is about 2 turns before I > social ladder him into Anastaz di Zagreb or Uta Kovak. > > I was just about to say that I have played in a couple of JOL games with you where you used JtG and I don't think anyone in either of those games triggered JtG's special. best - chris

On Dec 7, 1:14 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > I'm not sure it's worse than Spawning Pool, as outlined by > Brandon upthread there. Oh, Spawning Pool blows. But I don't think it blows worse than Nosferatu Hosting. Spawning Pool is at least free. And doesn't have a built in burn clause. And while wildly inefficient, is at the very least theoretically capable of having a beneficial effect. I'm not saying, like, Spawning Pool is good or anything. As it clearly isn't. But in, like, an ANI Nosferatu blocky Raven Spy deck? It is not completely out of the realm of reason than having a free Spawning Pool with a couple blood on it will do something good. I mean, you already have Nosferatu and are already blocking bleeds and already pressing to continue combat a lot anyway. Again, not, like, fantastic. Or even good. But not totally useless, at least in theory. I've played Spawing Pool more than once, and while, like, I'd never claim it is awesome, but I've used it and been like "Ha! Suck on that! Spawining Pool bites you for 2! To torpor!" Nosferatu Hosting? It costs a pool. You can't use it the turn it hits play (as it takes an MPA to use). Your opponents can burn it down (which, to be fair, is unlikely. As who the hell cares?). Later on, assuming someone has an uncontrolled minion, you can use an MPA to look at it. Woo. If they have an uncontrolled minion. And then you can't even *do* anything to that uncontrolled minion if there is another one to mix it up with. Did I mention that it costs a pool? Nosferatu Hosting kicks Spawning Pool's ass, in terms of pure suckage :-) -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] This is one of many reasons as to why I'm going to say the Nos and their sabbat cousins are the worst cards ever. (And yes I know the don't suck on an vamp to vamp bases, but their in clan cards and disciplines are the worst of all the major clans)

On Dec 8, 1:48 am, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: > On Sun, 6 Dec 2009, Dasein wrote: > > Miguel is not horrible at all if you are playing > > a deck with a lot of flicks. > > A smart predator will realize that's what you want and will take Miguel > and do something you don't want done with him, like Bum's Rush a War > Ghoul, diablerize and burn, rescue someone from torpor, call a vote, steal > your Rack, etc., etc. Yeah fair enough. OK he totally sucks.

On Dec 7, 4:45 pm, Pullen <mattp3...@yahoo.com> wrote: > This is one of many reasons as to why I'm going to say the Nos and > their sabbat cousins are the worst cards ever. (And yes I know the > don't suck on an vamp to vamp bases, but their in clan cards and > disciplines are the worst of all the major clans) Well, ya know, since day 1, the poor Nosferatu have suffered from a lack of good ousting mechanism--limited bleed increase, no good way to pass votes, etc. Granted, as time has gone on, their disciplines have been boosted to fix some of these issues (see: Animal Magmatism, Deep Song), but still, yeah, rough going. That's always been the case. But they have some very solid clan cards (Labyrinth, Secret Library, Information Network, now SchreckNET) and certainly have a lot of good, winning deck archetypes. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] CEL OBF QUI is worst discipline combination from 13 major clans, so count your opinion contested. Also, Nosferatu won more than a few tournaments in 2009. Up to date 8 for camarilla part of the clan and 3 for sabbat part. It's Ravnos who are clan with lowest score in 2009 - only 3 twda entries. Sabbat part of Brujah have less, but their camarilla brothers have 9 to even it up. Second worst is Assamite clan with 4 twda entries, and third place is held by Followers of Set with 6 twda entries. I counted main clan and antitribu as one, so results only shows approximate suckage of in-clan discipline combination.

On Dec 7, 5:39 pm, Raziel <angelofc...@gmail.com> wrote: > CEL OBF QUI is worst discipline combination from 13 major clans, so > count your opinion contested. Are you responding to me or to Pullen? Pullen said "The Nosferatu are the worst cards ever". I said "they have had an uphill battle, but have a lot of good stuff and good deck archetypes." And you responded to me contesting my opinion. Sensical? > Also, Nosferatu won more than a few tournaments in 2009. Up to date 8 > for camarilla part of the clan and 3 for sabbat part. Yes, I know? (see: "a lot of strong deck archetypes") -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] I think one of the main reasons they win is also they have some really, really solid vampires. I mean, you have a bunch of vampires who are not unaffordable and have like OBF and for and pot and titles and stuff. A bunch of traditions, awesome combat cards, votes etc and the deck can just win without a whole lot of effort.

Crypt: I would go with walker grimes. Master: High Museum of Art, Atlanta. Minion: Delivery Truck.

Crypt: Jacob the Glitch... Master: Contingency Plan Minion: Incriminating Videotape

Howdy Eric, > Miguel's pretty bad. But at least you can use Diamond Thunderbolt if > you're really worried about him. After the first few times, your > predator is likely to stop trying. > > At least he's still better than Hector Trelane and the even worse > Jacob the Glitch. ::sighs:: I've written up a deck with Uta, Ash, and Hector that looked pretty nifty, though I haven't had time to build it. And Jacob is filled with awesome, so I have no idea what you are talking about there. (I had him up to 5 blood from Cryptic Missioning and Thefting last time I used him. Only silly people use his Deal with the Devil power.) Now Rex, though, that's bad. And Rico Loco makes me sad. Alex

[ quoted text not captured ] Yeah, it was response for pullen :/

On 8 joulu, 08:40, wumpus <wump...@comcast.net> wrote: > Now Rex, though, that's bad. And Rico Loco makes me sad. > > Alex Heidelberg or, better yet, Communal Haven: Cathedral. Rico gets a free Bomb during your master phase and passes it on right away so he never has one during your untap phases. Just don't ask me what you're going to do with all those bombs...

On 7 Dec, 17:02, h...@iki.fi (Janne Hägglund) wrote: > Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> writes: > > > On Dec 7, 7:00 am, Chaitan <the.papasm...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Master: Aggressive Tactics or Spontaneous Power > > > Really? Spontaneous Power? I mean, not the best card ever, but not a > > horrible way to give someone one of those hard to get bloodlines > > disciplines. > > Especially when you combo it with Ian Forestal or Agent of Power for a > *superior* hard to get bloodlines discipline... > > I'd say it's like Club Zombie: useful, but costly. > > (Sure, Infernal Pact is better and cheaper, but that's only for !Tremere.) > > HG You seem to neglect the huge cost. Master: Discipline cards is rarely useful even though they are free (Reiner Stoschka + lots of weenies and discipline cards is fairly good though). Bloodline disciplines isn't particularly better than normal disciplines so what incentive do you have pay 2 pool and it's even unique (just in case two players use crappy decks at the same time). If it was the only option available there would be a tiny itty bitty reason to perhaps add it in some obscure bloodline deck but luckily we have Sanguine Instruction for that.

On Dec 8, 7:00 am, Raziel <angelofc...@gmail.com> wrote: > Yeah, it was response for pullen :/- Hide quoted text - Heh. These things happen :-) -Peter

On Dec 8, 7:44 am, Chaitan <the.papasm...@gmail.com> wrote: > You seem to neglect the huge cost. No, no, it has a huge cost. Which is why it (Spontaneous Power) isn't great. But it is ok, and certainly playable. Having an additional, say, Daughter with mel for (the already dubious) Choir deck (which, much like Spontaneous Power, isn't great, but at least somewhat playable) is good. > Bloodline disciplines isn't particularly better than normal > disciplines so what incentive do you have pay 2 pool and it's even > unique (just in case two players use crappy decks at the same time). No, they aren't particularly better than normal. But they are hard to get. Sometimes, people like trying wacky decks that, while not necessarily tier 1, are viable. Not every deck is weenie DEM bleed. Again, I'd never claim that Spontaneous Power is a great card. But it is certainly playable. > If it was the only option available there would be a tiny itty bitty > reason to perhaps add it in some obscure bloodline deck but luckily we > have Sanguine Instruction for that. You need to be the same clan to use Sanguine Instruction. And be older than someone. And take an action. Which isn't horrible, but leaves enough room open to make Spontaneous Power occasionally seem reasonable to use. And have a beneficial effect. -Peter

On Dec 7, 10:56 pm, Juggernaut1981 <brasscompo...@gmail.com> wrote: > Crypt: > Jacob the Glitch... (I just keep responding to these not 'cause I'm real het up, but 'cause I think this is a wildly entertaining discussion topic :-) Yeah, I'm with most of the other folks on Jacob--he isn't super optimnal or anything, but certainly playable. The "Social Ladder" trick is very solid (pay 2 for Jacob, immediately turn him into 6 pool on a bigger uncontrolled guy). And his disadvantage, while really severe on paper, probably doesn't actually come up that much, and when it does, probably not even all that debilitating. Especially if you mulch Jacob into Social Ladder fodder as soon as possible. For him to kick you in the face, you need to have a predator that doesn't have an important master to play, and for you to not redraw a whole new hand that is just as good as the previous one. Yeah, if your predator is an all deck depletion strategy, yeah, he'll kill you. But most of the time, probably not so much. Again, not optimal. But certainly playable. > Master: > Contingency Plan Oh, I dunno. It isn't great, sure, but it certainly doesn't, like, hinder you to put it in your deck if you can get something out of it. If you are some sort of crazy bleedzooka deck (imagine if you will, an OOT Lucian the Perfect/Enkil Cog bleed deck...), having one of these could be handy to keep your prey from bouncing your stealthy bleed of 12. > Minion: > Incriminating Videotape Again, not super. But not utterly unplayable--against, like, a huge blocky wall, having one of these in play can help. I mean, yeah, you need to get it out in play in the first place. But not completely useless. -Peter

On 8 Gru, 14:09, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Dec 7, 10:56 pm, Juggernaut1981 <brasscompo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Crypt: > > Jacob the Glitch... > > (I just keep responding to these not 'cause I'm real het up, but > 'cause I think this is a wildly entertaining discussion topic :-) > > Yeah, I'm with most of the other folks on Jacob--he isn't super > optimnal or anything, but certainly playable. The "Social Ladder" > trick is very solid (pay 2 for Jacob, immediately turn him into 6 pool > on a bigger uncontrolled guy). And his disadvantage, while really > severe on paper, probably doesn't actually come up that much, and when > it does, probably not even all that debilitating. Especially if you > mulch Jacob into Social Ladder fodder as soon as possible. For him to > kick you in the face, you need to have a predator that doesn't have an > important master to play, and for you to not redraw a whole new hand > that is just as good as the previous one. Yeah, if your predator is an > all deck depletion strategy, yeah, he'll kill you. But most of the > time, probably not so much. Again, not optimal. But certainly > playable. > > -Peter Social Ladder Master Master. Put this card on a ready vampire you control. During your influence phase, remove this vampire from the game and move all the BLOOD COUNTERS from that vampire to an older vampire in your uncontrolled region. It does not work as you said., It work well with Jake/Theft of Vitae/ Hunting Ground, stuff like that but it's capacity does not change anything.

On Dec 8, 8:17 am, Raziel <angelofc...@gmail.com> wrote: > Social Ladder > Master > Master. > Put this card on a ready vampire you control. During your influence > phase, remove this vampire from the game and move all the BLOOD > COUNTERS from that vampire to an older vampire in your uncontrolled > region. > > It does not work as you said., It work well with Jake/Theft of Vitae/ > Hunting Ground, stuff like that but it's capacity does not change > anything. Huh. I blame Norm. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] His combo was: 1. Influence out Jabob, the Glitch 2. Play Social Ladder on Jacob 3. Jacob takes the Sheepdog action (Mirror Walk if necessary) 4. Profit! HG

On Dec 8, 9:46 am, h...@iki.fi (Janne Hägglund) wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Yes, if you are super confindant that you won't get blocked then you play this, sometime I play the Sheepdog on one turn and follow it with Social Ladder on the next.

On Dec 8, 10:46 am, h...@iki.fi (Janne Hägglund) wrote: > His combo was: > > 1. Influence out Jabob, the Glitch > 2. Play Social Ladder on Jacob > 3. Jacob takes the Sheepdog action (Mirror Walk if necessary) > 4. Profit! Ah, yeah, see! It does work! Totally corner case and dubious. But playable! And a clever trick for a bad vampire. Can someone find one of these for Miguel? -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] You could use him for fodder in a Chain of Command deck. Since you never have him in play for your predator's turn then he works great as you get +1 bleed and alot of disciplines at a low cap. So you could have a Tremere chain him out bleed with him then have the boss tremere untap with Rutor's and follow him in. What do you think?

[ quoted text not captured ] You could control Lin Jun, Toby and have your predator bleed you with anarch Miguel for 4!!! Then you can either bounce it or immolate Miguel with an Archon Investication.

[ quoted text not captured ] ...so you could either bounce it (which might or might not damage your prey beyond 'hands for one'), or burn three pool and lose your minion permanently instead of for just your predator's turn.. genius! :) It's possible to do something like force Miguel into having a harmless, mandatory action (XTC Laced Blood, for example) while engineering a way to untap him (or use him while tapped) on your own turn - like Precog Mobility, or having him Empower Puppets, etc. That way your predator can borrow him, but only if he wants to use him strictly to hunt, etc. Still not good, though.

Howdy Peter, > > If it was the only option available there would be a tiny itty bitty > > reason to perhaps add it in some obscure bloodline deck but luckily we > > have Sanguine Instruction for that. > > You need to be the same clan to use Sanguine Instruction. And be older > than someone. And take an action. Which isn't horrible, but leaves > enough room open to make Spontaneous Power occasionally seem > reasonable to use. And have a beneficial effect. You don't actually have to be older to Sanguine Instruct. Just the same clan and have the discipline at superior. It's still not great, but it is useable. Alex

On Dec 8, 12:39 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > You could use him for fodder in a Chain of Command deck. Since you > never have him in play for your predator's turn then he works great as > you get +1 bleed and alot of disciplines at a low cap. So you could > have a Tremere chain him out bleed with him then have the boss tremere > untap with Rutor's and follow him in. > > What do you think? Hmm. Seems like there are other vampires who are gonna do pretty much the same thing, but are also minions you could actually put into play. With Chain of Command, you need to bleed, so the AUS and the POT aren't helping all that much. And neither is the THA. So really, he could just be a DOM weenie. I mean, yeah, +1 bleed and all, which is something, but probably not worth him being a minion you don't actually want to play. -Peter

On Dec 8, 12:43 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > You could control Lin Jun, Toby and have your predator bleed you with > anarch Miguel for 4!!! Then you can either bounce it or immolate > Miguel with an Archon Investication. Ooh! Now we are talking! -Peter

On Dec 8, 3:01 pm, wumpus <wump...@comcast.net> wrote: > You don't actually have to be older to Sanguine Instruct. Just the > same clan and have the discipline at superior. It's still not great, > but it is useable. Oh, yeah, you are correct. But still, superior discipline and same clan. In many of the cases where Sanguine Instruction seems like it might be a good idea, Spontaneous Power is going to seem like just as good of an idea. I mean, again, not good. But playable. And far above the worst card. Ever. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] Well the best two clans to do Chain of Command are Tremere and Giovanni and he fits pretty well in either. Imagine him Bleeding for 4 getting blocked then torporing the opposing minion and Amaranthing them. Seems pretty solid especially since he can bump that bleed up to 6 pretty easily, which not many other 6 caps can do in a Chain of Command deck

[ quoted text not captured ] Actually, he is the only 6 cap who can blee for 6 under a Chain of Command

[ quoted text not captured ] You could make sure that he was empty at the end of your turn (i.e. Heidleburg) then you could give him a blood at the beginning of your turn with a hunting ground, that way if your predator took him then the only thing that they could do would be to hunt.

On Dec 9, 6:25 am, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > You could make sure that he was empty at the end of your turn (i.e. > Heidleburg) then you could give him a blood at the beginning of your > turn with a hunting ground, that way if your predator took him then > the only thing that they could do would be to hunt.- Hide quoted text - Huh. Well, on one hand, not a horrible plan. But on the other hand, what are you getting for it? If you always only have 1 blood on him, having POT isn't actually helping (as aggressively fighting with 1 blood is just asking for fail). If you aren;t using the POT, why is using him worth it over any number of other good mid caps with similar disciplines? I mean, yeah, +1 bleed is good, but he already has DOM-- you need to build in crazy deck infrastructure and built in significant risk for a 6 cap with DOM/+1 bleed, when you could just use a regular guy with DOM and not all the shenanagins? -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] What do you get for it? You get a good cheap minion for 6 pool who is a 6 cap, which means he can be Governed out by a 7 cap. Look at all the great 7 cap vampires out there with Pot/Dom or Tha/Dom. The first one that caught my eye was Valerius Maior, or Jacob the Glitch with two Dominate Skill cards (paying 5 pool to get 2 6-caps). Sure it's hokey, but you asked for a use for him.

On Dec 9, 7:08 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > What do you get for it? I meant in the realm of "you have a 6 cap guy with 1 blood and a bunch of good disciplines than you can't really get so much out of with 1 blood" (assuming the plan of "keep him at 0 blood when it isn't your turn"). He is a 6 cap with DOM and +1 bleed, which is good, but there are plenty of other good 6 caps with DOM who you *don't* need to keep at 0 blood. The only real advantage to him over other non debilitating Tremere/!Tremere is that he has POT. And you can't get a lot of milage out of POT with 1 blood when you are acting. > You get a good cheap minion for 6 pool who is a 6 cap, which means he > can be Governed out by a 7 cap. Look at all the great 7 cap vampires > out there with Pot/Dom or Tha/Dom. The first one that caught my eye > was Valerius Maior, or Jacob the Glitch with two Dominate Skill cards > (paying 5 pool to get 2 6-caps). Sure. Which is why you use one of them instead of Miguel :-) > Sure it's hokey, but you asked for a use for him. I mean, yeah, I think the "keep him at 0 blood when it isn't your turn" plan is certainly a clever way to get some kind of use out of him, but I'm not convinced that it is remotely worth the effort. I mean, yeah, you can Govern him out with a 7 cap, but you could govern out *any* 6 cap with a 7 cap. Miguel's awesome discipline spread doesn't really pay off if he is at 1 blood on your turn and 0 blood the rest of the time (can't reliably bounce, can't fight, can't bleed much). So there is a lot of infrastructure (Heidelburg to keep him at 0 blood, Hunting Ground to get him to 1 on your turn, not using those resources for other things that are probably a better plan) to get a 6 cap with DOM on your turn who can't do anything spectacular. If there was something exciting (even fringe-exciting) that this could result in, I'd be all over it. But it seems like an awful lot of work to get some sub-optimal use out of a minion who could just as easily be any number of other minions without the infrastructure. And they'd probably be better anyway. -Peter

> I mean, yeah, I think the "keep him at 0 blood when it isn't your > turn" plan is certainly a clever way to get some kind of use out of > him, but I'm not convinced that it is remotely worth the effort. I > mean, yeah, you can Govern him out with a 7 cap, but you could govern > out *any* 6 cap with a 7 cap. Miguel's awesome discipline spread > doesn't really pay off if he is at 1 blood on your turn and 0 blood > the rest of the time (can't reliably bounce, can't fight, can't bleed > much). So there is a lot of infrastructure (Heidelburg to keep him at > 0 blood, Hunting Ground to get him to 1 on your turn, not using those > resources for other things that are probably a better plan) to get a 6 > cap with DOM on your turn who can't do anything spectacular. If there > was something exciting (even fringe-exciting) that this could result > in, I'd be all over it. But it seems like an awful lot of work to get > some sub-optimal use out of a minion who could just as easily be any > number of other minions without the infrastructure. And they'd > probably be better anyway. Yeah, I agree. He is tough to use. Still he is great Chain of Command fodder.

[ quoted text not captured ] What about using him in a deck with Minor Boons where you torporize him and Boon him out of torpor so that he can not bleed you ever again...

On Dec 10, 4:26 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > What about using him in a deck with Minor Boons where you torporize > him and Boon him out of torpor so that he can not bleed you ever > again... Heh, certainly an amusing concept :-) See, here is the thing with Miguel (just going off again, fully admiring Norm's clever adaptive mind)--considering his incredibly debilitating disadvantage (that will result in him bleeding you for 8 or diablerizing someone and getting burned in a blood hunt probably more often than not), you simply aren't getting anything from him worth the effort. Like, again, Sonja Blue? She is pretty spectacular: -She costs 1 pool. -She has FOR/CEL/PRE/dom (and pot) allowing for some fantastic multi acting possibilities and general utility. -She has good built in abilities. She is all sorts of fantastic, such that building a deck around her (i.e. spending, like, 10 card slots on Diamond Thunderbolt) is worth the effort. I mean, probably not all the time, but I can *totally* see wanting to try, and the result being, at the very least, moderately effective and worth the effort. Miguel? Yeah, a 6 cap with DOM is certainly good. And +1 bleed is good. But POT/DOM (or POT/AUS) is pretty easy to come by. And POT/THA comes on two other good 7 caps (Lord Vauxhaul and I; Paolo who also both have dominate...) which is probably enough to build a deck out of, including the various other G4/5 Pot/Tha guys (Black Wallace, Antonio, Frank Waishadel) that doesn't require Miguel (which, when you think about it, is probably a pretty good deck, the Pot/Tha/Dom. Without Miguel :-) Poor Miguel. Until someone has something really brilliant to do with him, I'm going to keep him in my heart as the Worst Vampire in the Game. -Peter

But it seems like an awful lot of work to get > some sub-optimal use out of a minion who could just as easily be any > number of other minions without the infrastructure. And they'd > probably be better anyway. I am playing with the Broken Men right now on JOL and even though my predator is using dominate in his deck, his special is flowing my bounce pretty easily. If my predator actually had a predator my game would be in a considerably better position. All in all +bleed on a six cap with superior dominate is pretty strong.

On Dec 8, 4:11 am, suoli <suoliruse...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 8 joulu, 08:40, wumpus <wump...@comcast.net> wrote: > > > Now Rex, though, that's bad. And Rico Loco makes me sad. > > > Alex > > Heidelberg or, better yet, Communal Haven: Cathedral. Rico gets a free > Bomb during your master phase and passes it on right away so he never > has one during your untap phases. Just don't ask me what you're going > to do with all those bombs... Nodding to a Political Ally? then Compel the Spirit for them to do it again next turn? requirements: Rico Loco, Bomb, Ventrue + Political Ally, Nod. NEC to Compel the Spirit for an encore. i'm sure there's a political in-joke there, somewhere.

On Dec 8, 12:40 am, wumpus <wump...@comcast.net> wrote: > Howdy Eric, > > > Miguel's pretty bad. But at least you can use Diamond Thunderbolt if > > you're really worried about him. After the first few times, your > > predator is likely to stop trying. > > > At least he's still better than Hector Trelane and the even worse > > Jacob the Glitch. ::sighs:: > > I've written up a deck with Uta, Ash, and Hector that looked pretty > nifty, though I haven't had time to build it. And Jacob is filled > with awesome, so I have no idea what you are talking about there. (I > had him up to 5 blood from Cryptic Missioning and Thefting last time I > used him. Only silly people use his Deal with the Devil power.) The problem with Jacob is that he potentially hoses your whole game. Most vampires with disadvantages, have penalties that hose just themselves. Tariq's capacity reduction makes him more fragile. Marcus Vitel Advanced gets torped by Brujah. Red List vampires have a big bull's eye on their foreheads. Even with Miguel, most of the time, the worst that can happen is that he gets torporized or burned after diablerie. But in all those cases, the bad stuff is limited to just the vampire with the penalty. The worst vampires are those with disadvantages that go beyond just that particular vampire. Some vampires actively help you get ousted (Bethany Ray is one of the better examples of this). Or that really screws with your game (like Jacob). Imagine a version of Tariq that reduces all of your vampire's capacities by 4. Or a Marcus Vitel that lets any or your minions be rushed by Brujah. That's a lot worse because it has a global scale effect, instead of one limited to just that minion. Jacob's disadvantage is a problem in many cases. Even if your predator doesn't end up using it, it's like a constant Sword of Damocles, threatening to mess up your plans. It's difficult to coordinate any consistent defense (saving intercept or bounce, holding on to a DI or Giant's Blood for just the right moment) because you could easily end up discarding your whole hand. My recent experiences with Constant Revolution have only strengthened my opinion that Jacob's disadvantage is extremely debilitating. After several games with a Constant Revolution deck, I found quite a number of decks that were impeded by having to constantly discard random cards from your hand. Now imagine what it's like to have a permanent Constant Revolution with 7 counters in play (i.e. potentially discarding your whole hand every turn). That's what Jacob ends up doing. Many decks only pack one or two copies of Unique cards. Having to discard those copies due to Jacob can be quite an annoyance. At one point, I drew into The Rack, but was worried I would have to discard it due to Constant Revolution (with 3 counters). Discarding it wouldn't have been the end of the world, but it would have been quite frustrating. It was also really irritating whenever I drew master cards during the minion phase (or other people's turn) because I knew I might not even have the chance to play the master cards (cause I might be forced to discard them). If Jacob was a super awesome vampire that you could build a real all-star deck around, then it would make sense that you could design your deck around his penalty (including extra copies of unique cards, use Sargon Fragment or Ashur Tablets, etc.). But he's a 2-cap with THA. It's kind of silly redesigning your whole deck (and revamping your whole strategy) just for a weenie chump.

On Dec 11, 6:09 pm, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang...@yahoo.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] That is where you are wrong. He is a 6-cap with THA that only costs 2 pool to put into play. If you aren't using that extra capacity then you aren't using Jacob the Glitch.

On Dec 11, 7:09 pm, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Jacob's disadvantage is a problem in many cases. Even if your predator > doesn't end up using it, it's like a constant Sword of Damocles, > threatening to mess up your plans. How often do you put master cards into your deck that you don't intend on using? John Eno

On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 22:07:51 -0800 (PST), Kushiel wrote: >> Jacob's disadvantage is a problem in many cases. Even if your predator >> doesn't end up using it, it's like a constant Sword of Damocles, >> threatening to mess up your plans. >How often do you put master cards into your deck that you don't intend >on using? Every time I have a multiple of a unique master because I need it early. Or, Zillah's Valley, or Legendary Vampire that came up too late, etc. I've never seen Jacob in play.

[ quoted text not captured ] Often. There are a lot of masters that are generally useful, but might not be worth it in a specific game. Maybe I don't have the pool to pay for a Hunting Ground when I draw it. My prey (and the remaining players) are playing weird decks and there's nothing worthwhile I can get with the Erciyes Fragment. Someone else has Sabbat vote lock, so Black Forest Base will help them and not me. A Powerbase or the Rack will probably help other players more than me. I already have vote lock so I don't need Elysium: Palace of Versailles or Dia de los Muertos. There's very little stealth in the game so I don't want to pay pool for an intercept location. No one's playing politics so Yawp Court isn't useful. All my current vampires already have superior, so the only way I can play a discipline card is on someone else's vampire. I included meta like Elysium: The Arboretum, Purchase Pact, or Elysium: Sforzesco Castle but no one's playing the appropriate sect. Someone else beat me to: Giant's Blood or Kaymakli Nightmares or Fortschritt Library. My vampires are out of blood so Minion Tap and Villein aren't very useful right now. Someone else already has a Unique master (Anarch Troublemaker, The Coven, Dreams and isn't using it, Mob Connections) and I don't have the pool to contest (or it's a cross-table ally who needs it more). Arika's my predator so what's the point of playing locations (or there's a Rico Loco Bomb deck and I don't want to give him easy ways to burn the Bombs). These are all cases where cards that are often good, aren't useful in that particular situation. But they'd be good fodder to screw over Jacob's controller. Even discounting the "discard your whole hand" bit, you're still giving your predator an additional opportunity to cycle (which is never a good thing for you). If he's trying to draw the cards for an oust (or a power combo), he knows he can discard an extra (master) card during his master phase. Uchenna and Lille Haake actually pay points for similar specials.