LSJ: 2 questions

The Ghouled Street Thug normally can't make hand strikes, but can it make them (for base 2 damage each) if it uses a Torn Signpost? Actually, now that I think about it, what happens if an ally without a listed hand damage uses a weapon that says "+N hand damage"? If Meshenka gets a hold of the Ankara Citadel, do you subtract one from and then halve her costs for Vicissitude cards, or halve them and then subtract one? Thanks in advance. -- Justin Fang (jus...@ugcs.caltech.edu) This space intentionally left blank.

Justin Fang wrote: > > The Ghouled Street Thug normally can't make hand strikes, but can it make > them (for base 2 damage each) if it uses a Torn Signpost? Yes. > Actually, now > that I think about it, what happens if an ally without a listed hand damage > uses a weapon that says "+N hand damage"? <nothing> + X = <nothing> Adding damage to a non-damage-dealing strike has no effect. [RTR] > If Meshenka gets a hold of the Ankara Citadel, do you subtract one from and > then halve her costs for Vicissitude cards, or halve them and then subtract > one? Halve and then subtract one. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. (*) - Subject to review by Rules Team

><nothing> + X = <nothing> Mathmatically, 0+X=X This may not be the case in the game, but that's a fundimental law of addition. Actually it's called the Identity Rule of Addition. Jason

[ quoted text not captured ] Well yes, but the idea is that the strike is not 0 hand damage to start with. It's zero of something else, which is not hand damage at all. So adding hand damage doesn't change the amount of damage that it does. 0+X = X only if they're quantities of the same units. 0 seconds + X kilograms is still 0 seconds, insofar as the expression still makes sense.

In article <199803261612...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, SirTemple <sirt...@aol.com> wrote: >><nothing> + X = <nothing> > >Mathmatically, 0+X=X >This may not be the case in the game, but that's a fundimental law of addition. > Actually it's called the Identity Rule of Addition. > Except that <nothing> != 0 This isn't a mathmatical construction assertion, but merely an that If you can't do a hand strike, being able to do greater damage when you do one is meaningless. -- /\ Jasper Phillips /VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--. * http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`

SirTemple wrote: > > ><nothing> + X = <nothing> > > Mathmatically, 0+X=X That's true everywhere. Including in VTES. Unfortunately, allies do not have zero hand damage - they have no hand strike at all and no hand damage (unless card text says otherwise). Similarly, strikeing with a Rowan Ring does no damage, not just zero damage. Using Lucky Blow on a Rowan Ring strike still does no damage since <nothing> +1 = <nothing>. [RTR] [ quoted text not captured ]

Actually, mathematically, <nothing>! = 1, or more specifically, 0! = 1. This is the way the factorial function is defined for 0. Also, with 0 + X = X, yes, they have to be of the same units, otherwise, they won't add together. It is just like adding the proverbial apples to the proverbial oranges. They're oil and water; they don't mix. I liked the comparison to adding 0 seconds to X kilometers. This makes no sense, since their units are different. Scott Halvorson math teacher and Jyhad player Jasper Phillips wrote: > In article <199803261612...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, > SirTemple <sirt...@aol.com> wrote: > >><nothing> + X = <nothing> > > > >Mathmatically, 0+X=X [ quoted text not captured ]

Warning... this post doesn't add anything to any discussion. Its purposes are only a) pedantry, and b) cluttering up the newsgroup. Thank you, please drive through. > Actually, mathematically, <nothing>! = 1, or more specifically, 0! = 1. > To be further pedantic, while it is true that 0! = 1, it is also true that 0 != 1, and 0 != 42. An exclamation point followed by an equals sign is the C symbol for 'not equal to', which I feel was represented better in BASIC by the opposed inequality signs ('<>'). Not that it matters. In any case, we are arguing that <nothing> != 0. In this case, <nothing> is more equivalent to the X of tri-valued logic systems. Where 0 is off, 1 is on, and X is indeterminate, or not connected. > This is the way the factorial function is defined for 0. Also, with 0 + X = > X, yes, they have to be of the same units, otherwise, they won't add > together. It is just like > adding the proverbial apples to the proverbial oranges. They're oil and > water; they don't mix. I liked the comparison to adding 0 seconds to X > kilometers. This makes no sense, since their units are different. > But in that case, you would have 0 second and X kilometers. If this analogy were carried over to the hand damage thing, a Ghouled Street Thug with a Bastard Sword would do 1R damage + 1 regular damage. This is obviously not what happens. A Ghouled Street Thug actually does 0 damage with a Bastard Sword. Another argument is harder to dismiss. That one being that a minion without hand damage cannot make a hand strike. Thus, using Undead Strength with that minion will still not allow a hand strike, and so no hand damage is done. But with a Bastard Sword, the minion makes a weapon strike, so it seems he should still be able to do 1 damage with the Sword. But not according to the Rules Team. It's been said over and over again that a weapon strike is not a hand strike, so why can't the Thug simply make a strike for hand damage (nothing) + 1 with the Sword? I don't know. It's just "the way things are." I guess you could say that a minion without hand damage reduces any sum of numbers that includes his hand damage to 0. So with the Bastard Sword, we would add 1 + <nothing> = 0. And with Bang Nakh, 2 + <nothing> = 0. So <nothing> is a mystical quantity which when added to or multiplied by any number gives 0. In other words: when any lvalue is given any quantity involving the term <nothing>, that lvalue is set to 0. That was fun... 8) -Chris -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

In article <351C5977...@cptc.wisc.edu>, Scott Halvorson <halv...@cptc.wisc.edu> wrote: [mucho snippage] >Actually, mathematically, <nothing>! = 1, or more specifically, 0! = 1. >This is the way the factorial function is defined for 0. Heh, I was using programming terminology, not mathmatical -- by <nothing> != 0 I meant: <nothing> does not equal 0, not <nothing> factorial equals 0. [ quoted text not captured ]