On 5 Nov 2001 09:17:10 -0800, roans...@yahoo.com (Aaron) wrote:
>
>And whats the deal with Innocent Bystander selling for more then War Ghoul?
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1658202867
Reprint vs not reprinted?
>Just what I've always wanted, my own Airforce!
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1656704070
>
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5974780
60&r=0&t=0
You know Aaron, I'm starting to worry about you! You seem to spend far too much
time on eBay looking at aircraft that you know you'll never bother getting! =)
>And whats the deal with Innocent Bystander selling for more then War Ghoul?
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1658202867
You know, I was wondering about that too. Lately, as if people weren't already
paying astronomical prices for Carrion Coffins and Shotgun Rituals, the Sabbat
frenzy has spread to Infernal Pacts and Innocent Bystanders. I'm just thankful
I managed to pick up Errol's final 3 Innocent Bystanders at a dollar apiece!
=)
Halcyan 2
In message <7ab27d37.01110...@posting.google.com>, Aaron
<roans...@yahoo.com> writes:
>Just what I've always wanted, my own Airforce!http://www.iwantoneofthose.com/fighter_jet.htm
--
James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
EBD690ECD7A1F
If I had a dick, I'd go get laid. We can do the B457CA213D7E6
next best thing. Let's kill people. Oh, not *you*. 68C3695D623D5D
"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011105143246...@mb-dh.aol.com...
> >Just what I've always wanted, my own Airforce!
> >
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1656704070
> >
> >
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5974780
> 60&r=0&t=0
>
> You know Aaron, I'm starting to worry about you! You seem to spend far too
much
> time on eBay looking at aircraft that you know you'll never bother
getting! =)
For a long time(before the infamous $10 apporations) a friend and I have
been going back and forth with the most outrageous things we can find on
ebay. Airplanes tend to be the most expensive, so they are a good bet.
Hmm, I wonder if I can get my own aircraft carrier...or cruise ship!
> >And whats the deal with Innocent Bystander selling for more then War
Ghoul?
> >
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1658202867
>
> You know, I was wondering about that too. Lately, as if people weren't
already
> paying astronomical prices for Carrion Coffins and Shotgun Rituals, the
Sabbat
> frenzy has spread to Infernal Pacts and Innocent Bystanders. I'm just
thankful
> I managed to pick up Errol's final 3 Innocent Bystanders at a dollar
apiece!
> =)
Whew, at least I'm not the only one! Oh, and anyone that wants to trade me
their war ghouls, for my innocent bystanders are welcome to come and get
them.
--
Aaron
The Nosferatu Stuff
"The Nosferatu Stuff" <roans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:GmGF7.34$oM5....@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net...
>
> "Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20011105143246...@mb-dh.aol.com...
> > >Just what I've always wanted, my own Airforce!
> > >
> > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1656704070
> > >
> > >
> > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5974780
> > 60&r=0&t=0
> >
> > You know Aaron, I'm starting to worry about you! You seem to spend far too
> much
> > time on eBay looking at aircraft that you know you'll never bother
> getting! =)
>
> For a long time(before the infamous $10 apporations) a friend and I have
> been going back and forth with the most outrageous things we can find on
> ebay. Airplanes tend to be the most expensive, so they are a good bet.
> Hmm, I wonder if I can get my own aircraft carrier...or cruise ship!
The most *ridiculous* item for sale on the internet (not eBay) is by far the
Juliet-class
Soviet submarine, which you can see here: http://www.subexpo.com/
I know it isn't on eBay, but try to top that! =)
> Aaron
> The Nosferatu Stuff
Kevin M., Prince of Madison, WI (USA)
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
>The most *ridiculous* item for sale on the internet (not eBay) is by far the
>Juliet-class
>Soviet submarine, which you can see here: http://www.subexpo.com/
Why are all are of these vehicles "ridiculous?" Hey, if I had the money, I
wouldn't mind owning my own aircraft or something! =)
Halcyan 2
> Whew, at least I'm not the only one! Oh, and anyone that wants to trade
me
> their war ghouls, for my innocent bystanders are welcome to come and get
> them.
Heh I told the friend who I am bidding for about the thread here, and his
response was "like I care, I've got 8 War Ghouls but no Innocent Bystander"
:)
Roger aka rogcar-6
"Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message
news:9s8k08$117ru6$1...@ID-104455.news.dfncis.de...
[ quoted text not captured ]
YES! Whats his address. I will send out that IB as soon as I receive his
war Ghoul. Well, we probably should even up his collection. I'll send him
4 IB for 4 war ghouls. Then he'll have 4 of each!
[ quoted text not captured ]
Aaron wrote:
> And whats the deal with Innocent Bystander selling for more then War Ghoul?
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1658202867
Simple: Innocent Bystander wasn't reprinted, War Ghoul was. Useful or not,
a card being reprinted in a recent set can make a huge difference with
certain people (e.g. collectors) for various reasons.
Fred
Howdy Halcyan 2,
> >And whats the deal with Innocent Bystander selling for more then War Ghoul?
> >
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1658202867
>
> You know, I was wondering about that too. Lately, as if people weren't already
> paying astronomical prices for Carrion Coffins and Shotgun Rituals, the Sabbat
> frenzy has spread to Infernal Pacts and Innocent Bystanders. I'm just thankful
> I managed to pick up Errol's final 3 Innocent Bystanders at a dollar apiece!
> =)
Why on earth did you do that? Do you have a deck that actually _uses_
Innocent Bystanders?!? If so, how? Or do you just like the picture?
Inquiring Newsletter Editors want to know,
Alex
"The Nosferatu Stuff" <roans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:WDQF7.57$oM5....@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Heh he said he wants 8 War Ghouls, the's the perfect number for his coming
WG-deck he thinks. So he figured he needs them all.
Roger
"Alex Broadhead" <alex.br...@clearband.com> wrote in message
news:5f63e367.01110...@posting.google.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Maybe he realised they'd be possible to sell for more than that on eBay? I
myself was thinking of buying them just because they're hard to come by.
Kind of useless card in and by itself, but rare nontheless ;) (wasn't gonna
sell on eBay though - I don't dso that as you can see on my profile - but
rather trade them away for soemthing more valuable).
Roger
>Why on earth did you do that? Do you have a deck that actually _uses_
>Innocent Bystanders?!? If so, how? Or do you just like the picture?
>
Well, first off, to respond to Roger, I don't sell stuff on eBay. On the one
hand, it's too much of a hassle, and on the other, I have ethical problems with
that (don't even begin to ask about my messed up morals and values).
Actually, I've been planning on making a good !Ventrue deck. Even though most
of the !Ventrue picture sucks, this doesn't mean that they're a bad clan
overall! =)
I just need to get some more starters, which I'll wait and order with
Bloodlines. So yes, I do plan to use a deck w/ the IB's. More for entertainment
value.
And I do have to indeed that Innocent Bystander does have a really really cool
picture! It's pretty awesome!
Halcyan 2
"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3BE808E6...@netcom.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Interesting idea? But for that card to move up from it's starting bid to
get to $6.50 plus shipping...I imagine there woudl have to be several people
bidding on it. Probably someone just have no idea what it does. I mean,
compared to some of the other awesome -cant build a deck without it- stuff
not reprinted(which is nothing) maybe someone just figured it has to be
great.
[ quoted text not captured ]
[ quoted text not captured ]
I think you're assuming everyone's a player. Certain people just collect and
thus want one of everything. In fact, a lot of people who play often collect
one of every set if they can.
Also depends on supply, too. If I'm running around trading with a group of
people who've bought lots of Sabbat War and have little, if any, The Sabbat,
simple supply & demand laws say I put a higher price on Innocent Bystander.
Bottom line is that is isn't just the play value of the card that determines
price. If it were, Wake with Evening's Freshness would price much higher than,
say, Protected Resources.
Fred
The Nosferatu Stuff wrote:
>
> "Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:3BE808E6...@netcom.com...
> > Aaron wrote:
> > > And whats the deal with Innocent Bystander selling for more then War
> > > Ghoul?
> >> > Simple: Innocent Bystander wasn't reprinted, War Ghoul was. Useful or
> > not, a card being reprinted in a recent set can make a huge difference
> > with certain people (e.g. collectors) for various reasons.
>
> Interesting idea? But for that card to move up from it's starting bid to
> get to $6.50 plus shipping...I imagine there woudl have to be several people
> bidding on it. Probably someone just have no idea what it does. I mean,
> compared to some of the other awesome -cant build a deck without it- stuff
> not reprinted(which is nothing) maybe someone just figured it has to be
> great.
What "awesome-can't-build-a-deck-without-it" rare stuff not reprinted that
doesn't sell in that ballpark is there? Are we comparing apples to apples
and finding something a comparison that's out of whack?
Fred
"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3BE88CA6...@netcom.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
No, I was just saying that you'd need alot of collectors to go from $0 to $7
that quickly. It's not like the guy is bidding with himself. So whoever is
bidding against him either also REALLY needs one, and between the 2 of them
no one has any sabbat, or there are more collectors then there needs to be.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3BE88DD0...@netcom.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Apples to apples, Derange, Shotgun ritual, and now apparently Innocent
Bystander. All apples. They are all relativly useless. They are better
then eyes of the dead or whatever, but they are no Gover the Unaligned
either.
[ quoted text not captured ]
[ quoted text not captured ]
Govern the Unaligned is not an apple. It's a Jyhad/VtES/Sabbat War/
Final Nights-printed orange. I asked you what thing got printed that was
an apple - that is, a rare, out-of-print The Sabbat "awesome-can't-build-a-deck-
without-it" card that was going for cheaper than Innocent Bystander? If you
cannot name one, your assertion that paying high prices for non-reprinted
The Sabbat cards is out of whack makes no sense.
Fred
The Nosferatu Stuff wrote:
>
> "Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:3BE88CA6...@netcom.com...
> > The Nosferatu Stuff wrote:
> > >
> > > "Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3BE808E6...@netcom.com...> > > Interesting idea? But for that card to move up from it's starting bid
> > > to get to $6.50 plus shipping...I imagine there woudl have to be several
> > > people bidding on it. Probably someone just have no idea what it does. I
> > > mean, compared to some of the other awesome -cant build a deck without it-
> > > stuff not reprinted(which is nothing) maybe someone just figured it has
> > > to be great.
> >
> > I think you're assuming everyone's a player. Certain people just collect
> > and thus want one of everything. In fact, a lot of people who play often
> > collect one of every set if they can.
>
> No, I was just saying that you'd need alot of collectors to go from $0 to $7
> that quickly. It's not like the guy is bidding with himself. So whoever is
> bidding against him either also REALLY needs one, and between the 2 of them
> no one has any sabbat, or there are more collectors then there needs to be.
So there's two of them. So what? It's a big world. Is it really that hard
to imagine that _two_ guys really want to fill in their Sabbat set?
Fred
> > No, I was just saying that you'd need alot of collectors to go from $0
to $7
> > that quickly. It's not like the guy is bidding with himself. So
whoever is
> > bidding against him either also REALLY needs one, and between the 2 of
them
> > no one has any sabbat, or there are more collectors then there needs to
be.
>
> So there's two of them. So what? It's a big world. Is it really that
hard
> to imagine that _two_ guys really want to fill in their Sabbat set?
I think not. Although I find $15 for an Innocent Bystander to be gross even
in that perspective ;)
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1658202867 Especially
when a greeat (IMO) card as Derange goes for the same, and other goodies
like Dog Pack and Infernal Pact are quite a bit cheaper.
Roger
> > Apples to apples, Derange, Shotgun ritual, and now apparently Innocent
> > Bystander. All apples. They are all relativly useless. They are
better
> > then eyes of the dead or whatever, but they are no Gover the Unaligned
> > either.
>
> Govern the Unaligned is not an apple. It's a Jyhad/VtES/Sabbat War/
> Final Nights-printed orange. I asked you what thing got printed that was
> an apple - that is, a rare, out-of-print The Sabbat
"awesome-can't-build-a-deck-
> without-it" card that was going for cheaper than Innocent Bystander? If
you
> cannot name one, your assertion that paying high prices for non-reprinted
> The Sabbat cards is out of whack makes no sense.
None. Thats the point. There are no cards, not reprinted in sabbat, that
should be worth any where near that much.(save the vampires and !tremere
stuff) Players should have no need for them, because they are stupid.
Collectors should need them, for sets. It should all even out. They
shouldn't be worth tons. Either A) there is a world wide shortage of IB, B)
players are keeping them because they are SO good, C) no one is selling them
because it's a stupid IB and it's worthless?
Tremere- Apporation
I can steal an ally, good thing I don't have presense-Art of Love, The
Yes, more sucky werewolves-Black Spiral Buddy
I can't remember what this card does? prevents them from playing chimistry
and dementation right? interesting- Blessing of Chaos
Another wolf claws-Bone Spur
one of those to expensive allys- Bruisers, The
a terrible corned steal blood card-Call of the Lamprey
good thing I don't know what discipline I am playing-Camarilla Vitae Slave
Homoculs anyone?- Carrion Coffin
Anyone need lucky blow?- Channeling the Beast
If !gangrel had some reason to play this card, it might be cool?- City
Gangrel Connections
Didnt they take this out so dementation wasn't dominate all over again?-
Confusion
guard duty, if you want to spend actions defending locations- Consecration
Rites
More sabbat votes, whatever- Crusade: Chicago/Miami/Toronto
he's fairly neat, but he doesn't do a whole lot. its not like you can base
a deck around stealing stuff your prey might not have- Dauntain Black
Magician (Changeling)
Very narrow card, and has yet to prove destructive- Derange
far superior to IB, but whats the point of burning their library? wouldn't
a bleed modifier have been more useful to play? Althoug I have seen it go
to good use with the new courier- Dirty Little Secrets
Tremere- Eldritch Glimmer
yawn, more goofy OBF combat- Fade From View
Try a flak jacket if you like wasting actions- Fire Dance
Tremere- Gargoyle Slave
No good since they are unique and requires FAR too many moving parts-Goth
Band
Tremere, but still extra stupid- Infamous Warlock
Tremere-Infernal Familiar
Tremere- Infernal Pact
What does this card do for !Ventrue? nothing- Innocent Bystander
veryveryvery expensive. To expensive to even be used 99% of the time-
Lyndhurst Estate, New York
Tremere- Machine Blitz
P/R/S is too easy to have problems with, not missed- Malkavian Game
strange card, what can you do with it? I have never tried? sounds useful?-
Mind of a Child
Cool- Mind Tricks
Tremere- Nephandus (Mage)
you got blackmail if you want, but no one seems to think that is too awesome
either?- Passion
Powerbase: New York
It's not a flash, and it's useful in many decks, this is sabbat all around
most missed card- Rapid Thought
this card is just wierd, but have yet to see it's usefulness over a raven
spy- Raptor
Tremere- Sabbat Inquisitor
see clan loyalty for usefulness- Sacrifice
I like this card, but no one else does, true it is pretty much crap compared
to KRC- Screw the Masquerade!
I feel sorry for this card, it should not have been rare, and is useful-
Shadow Step
Tremere- Shotgun Ritual
Tremere- Soul Burn
Tremere- Spirit Summoning Chamber
Steam Tunnels
Tremere- Succubus
Why not just say, burn all your life to do nothing, way to expensive for
possibly no effect- Summon the Abyss
Tremere- University Hunting Ground
yes, anti ally tap cards!- Wave of Insanity
[ quoted text not captured ]
"The Nosferatu Stuff" <roans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9kaG7.679$oM5....@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net...
>> None. Thats the point. There are no cards, not reprinted in sabbat,
not reprinted in sabbat war.
> should be worth any where near that much.(save the vampires and !tremere
> stuff) Players should have no need for them, because they are stupid.
> Collectors should need them, for sets. It should all even out. They
> shouldn't be worth tons. Either A) there is a world wide shortage of IB,
B)
> players are keeping them because they are SO good, C) no one is selling
them
> because it's a stupid IB and it's worthless?
>
> Tremere- Apporation
Apportation? Every Thaum deck should have at least one.
> I can steal an ally, good thing I don't have presense-Art of Love, The
not all !Tor decks use presence.
> Yes, more sucky werewolves-Black Spiral Buddy
3 life, agg hand, add strike, regeneration? if you don't want em, you can
trade em to me. at the very least an abomination target.
> I can't remember what this card does? prevents them from playing
chimistry
> and dementation right? interesting- Blessing of Chaos
also prevents opposing vamps from using Presence and Dominate in combat.
Little Tailor likey.
> Another wolf claws-Bone Spur
duration of combat
> one of those to expensive allys- Bruisers, The
1 Superior Enchant Kindred and you've almost recouped the loss.
> a terrible corned steal blood card-Call of the Lamprey
ok, not the most useful card. just realised the inferior says steal one
blood from an ally. allies don't have blood.
> good thing I don't know what discipline I am playing-Camarilla Vitae Slave
If you need the master slots
> Homoculs anyone?- Carrion Coffin
can't be stolen, burnt in combat, or have his shackled soul released.
> Anyone need lucky blow?- Channeling the Beast
some decks need the cyclability
> If !gangrel had some reason to play this card, it might be cool?- City
> Gangrel Connections
the reason is probably for votes. ;-)
> Didnt they take this out so dementation wasn't dominate all over again?-
> Confusion
I had no idea that was the designers inent.
> guard duty, if you want to spend actions defending locations- Consecration
> Rites
it's a disciplineless Haunt.
> More sabbat votes, whatever- Crusade: Chicago/Miami/Toronto
ok
> he's fairly neat, but he doesn't do a whole lot. its not like you can
base
> a deck around stealing stuff your prey might not have- Dauntain Black
> Magician (Changeling)
3 strength. trick special maybe, but i like making my vamps bigger for voice
of madness. (skill cards)
> Very narrow card, and has yet to prove destructive- Derange
Clan Loyalty, Sacrifice, Cardinal Sin:Insubordination, Cardinal Sin: Failure
of Mission,
No cost lockdown card. Many uses.
> far superior to IB, but whats the point of burning their library?
wouldn't
> a bleed modifier have been more useful to play? Althoug I have seen it go
> to good use with the new courier- Dirty Little Secrets
Sean from Atlanta (i think) played a !Nos bleed deck in the Southwest
regional qualifier with this card a plenty and some couriers, using marked
paths, spying missions and 4-6 vamps, he was able to mill my deck down
pretty quick.
> Tremere- Eldritch Glimmer
just more second round nastiness
> yawn, more goofy OBF combat- Fade From View
ok yeah, the cost makes it not fun.
> Try a flak jacket if you like wasting actions- Fire Dance
Can't be stolen or burnt in combat.
> Tremere- Gargoyle Slave
i dunno.
> No good since they are unique and requires FAR too many moving parts-Goth
> Band
Possibilities are there though.
> Tremere, but still extra stupid- Infamous Warlock
Just another hoser.
> Tremere-Infernal Familiar
Requires Thaum not Tremere, see Infernalists
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=jyhad+infernalists&hl=en&rnum=1&selm=3BD52
428%40MailAndNews.com
> Tremere- Infernal Pact
1 pool for Superior whatever-you-want sounds ok to me.
> What does this card do for !Ventrue? nothing- Innocent Bystander
Well, the previews have indicated that the Harbingers will have resource
destruction type cards, and they mix well with !Ventrue, i guess we'll just
have to see.
> veryveryvery expensive. To expensive to even be used 99% of the time-
> Lyndhurst Estate, New York
poor man's Awe
> Tremere- Machine Blitz
"nice chainsay y' got there, Talbot."
> P/R/S is too easy to have problems with, not missed- Malkavian Game
I guess, it's still fun though.
> strange card, what can you do with it? I have never tried? sounds
useful?-
> Mind of a Child
Lunatic Eruption, Mind of a Child: Etrius turns into a meal real quick.
> Cool- Mind Tricks
I agree
> Tremere- Nephandus (Mage)> you got blackmail if you want, but no one seems to think that is too
awesome
> either?- Passion
+1 stealth at superior.
> Powerbase: New York
haunt, guard duty, consertation rights, hehe
> It's not a flash, and it's useful in many decks, this is sabbat all around
> most missed card- Rapid Thought
agreed
> this card is just wierd, but have yet to see it's usefulness over a raven
> spy- Raptor
special thing is pretty neat.
> Tremere- Sabbat Inquisitor
+1 bleed at the very least
> see clan loyalty for usefulness- Sacrifice
right
> I like this card, but no one else does, true it is pretty much crap
compared
> to KRC- Screw the Masquerade!
agreed
> I feel sorry for this card, it should not have been rare, and is useful-
> Shadow Step
good card
> Tremere- Shotgun Ritual
some people like it
> Tremere- Soul Burn
ranged
> Tremere- Spirit Summoning Chamber
useful
> Steam Tunnels
seeing other players cards is always a good thing
> Tremere- Succubus
make some money on ebay
> Why not just say, burn all your life to do nothing, way to expensive for
> possibly no effect- Summon the Abyss
true
> Tremere- University Hunting Ground
!Trem need it
> yes, anti ally tap cards!- Wave of Insanity
yeah sucks.
sure, usually not worth what they go for on ebay, but useful none the less,
i really wish i would have bought more sabbat, i got a handfull of boosters
at best.
p.s. wow, that was exhausting. I got paid to do it though, hehe, love work.
--
Oscar Garza
Prince of College Station
The Crazy Aggie
skippy wrote:
> "The Nosferatu Stuff" <roans...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > a terrible corned steal blood card-Call of the Lamprey
>
> ok, not the most useful card. just realised the inferior says steal one
> blood from an ally. allies don't have blood.
See the rulebook for rules on "Steal Blood". [6.4.5]
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
The Nosferatu Stuff wrote:
>
> > > Apples to apples, Derange, Shotgun ritual, and now apparently Innocent
> > > Bystander. All apples. They are all relativly useless. They are
> > > better then eyes of the dead or whatever, but they are no Gover the Unaligned
> > > either.
> >
> > Govern the Unaligned is not an apple. It's a Jyhad/VtES/Sabbat War/
> > Final Nights-printed orange. I asked you what thing got printed that was> > an apple - that is, a rare, out-of-print The Sabbat "awesome-can't-build-
> > a-deck-without-it" card that was going for cheaper than Innocent Bystander?
> > If cannot name one, your assertion that paying high prices for non-reprinted> > The Sabbat cards is out of whack makes no sense.
>
> None. Thats the point. There are no cards, not reprinted in sabbat, that
> should be worth any where near that much.(save the vampires and !tremere
> stuff) Players should have no need for them, because they are stupid.
Oh, I don't agree with that. Nephandus Mage is one of the few truly worthwhile
allies ever printed. A lot of people also like Succubus, though she's pretty
expensive. I strongly disagree with you about Derange - it's a very good card.
And I've seen Shadow Step used effectively as a Lasombra combat card. So there's
definitely a few decent cards in the mix without even going down into the
uncommons.
> Collectors should need them, for sets. It should all even out. They
> shouldn't be worth tons.
Why should it "all even out"? It's a question of supply and demand. Since
you don't know how many collectors are out there (including how many players
engage in "collector-like" behavior by collecting full sets), I don't see
how you can establish that anything should "even out". What you're seeing
is evidence that it _doesn't_ even out and they _are_ worth, well, a few
bucks anyway.
Fred
[ quoted text not captured ]
$15 is just insane, I agree. Derange should always outsell IB by a country
mile. Probably Infernal Pack, too. Dog Pack, though superficially attractive,
is actually a pretty bad card and, in any event, is an Ancient Hearts rare,
not Sabbat.
Fred
"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3BE977C8...@netcom.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
I know Dog Pack is AH but stilla non-reprinted rare with a _lot_ more use
than IB (which should make it more expensive). But I've never played with it
myself, I agree it looks better than it is. I find it too costly. Infernal
Pact is great for decks that has an odd discipline in it (like qui). To my
friend IB is the only non-reprinted Sabbat card he lacks for owning allc
ards (ignoring versions) so he was prepared to bid well for it. But not even
he wanted to give $15 and he's a bit of Mr Suitcase when it comes to buying
cards ;)
> > None. Thats the point. There are no cards, not reprinted in sabbat,
that
> > should be worth any where near that much.(save the vampires and !tremere
> > stuff) Players should have no need for them, because they are stupid.
>
> Oh, I don't agree with that. Nephandus Mage is one of the few truly
worthwhile
> allies ever printed. A lot of people also like Succubus, though she's
pretty
> expensive. I strongly disagree with you about Derange - it's a very good
card.
> And I've seen Shadow Step used effectively as a Lasombra combat card. So
there's
> definitely a few decent cards in the mix without even going down into the
> uncommons.
I know there are several REALLY good !Tremere cards, I actually wanted to
leave them out of my over generilization that the stuff not-reprinted from
the sabbat was probably picked because...well it was the most
useless(comparativly) Obviously the Tremere are special, because you really
could not include the cool thamaturgy cards in a set without vampires with
thamaturgy? But think about it, if you had to cut down the set, would you
have chosen to drop Derange...or Coma? Derange is useful once in a while,
coma is good in how many decks?
> > Collectors should need them, for sets. It should all even out. They
> > shouldn't be worth tons.
>
> Why should it "all even out"? It's a question of supply and demand.
Since
> you don't know how many collectors are out there (including how many
players
> engage in "collector-like" behavior by collecting full sets), I don't see
> how you can establish that anything should "even out". What you're seeing
> is evidence that it _doesn't_ even out and they _are_ worth, well, a few
> bucks anyway.
I don't know, it just should? Don't try any of the jedi...er logic crap I
me. I know better!
[ quoted text not captured ]
The Nosferatu Stuff wrote:
> But think about it, if you had to cut down the set, would you
> have chosen to drop Derange...or Coma? Derange is useful once in a while,
> coma is good in how many decks?
Is this a trick question? Derange is obvious a much MUCH better and more
useful card than come. Was that not your answer, too?
> > > Collectors should need them, for sets. It should all even out. They
> > > shouldn't be worth tons.
> >
> > Why should it "all even out"? It's a question of supply and demand.
> > Since you don't know how many collectors are out there (including how many
> > players engage in "collector-like" behavior by collecting full sets),
> > I don't see how you can establish that anything should "even out". What
> > you're seeing is evidence that it _doesn't_ even out and they _are_ worth,
> > well, a few bucks anyway.> I don't know, it just should? Don't try any of the jedi...er logic crap I
> me. I know better!
Careful. You'll get in awful trouble with James for saying such things.
Fred
>> But think about it, if you had to cut down the set, would you
>> have chosen to drop Derange...or Coma? Derange is useful once in a while,
>> coma is good in how many decks?>
>Is this a trick question? Derange is obvious a much MUCH better and more
>useful card than come. Was that not your answer, too?
I'm sorry but I'm gonna have to interject and support Aaron. Derange more
useful than Coma? (Although costing a hefty 3 blood), Coma, even at inferior,
sends the opposing vampire to torpor! And this all for a clan that with,
Aus/Dem/Obf, has no combat ability! No one's ever afraid of getting into combat
with normal Malks, but with even the smaller !Malks, you have to worry about
Comas. Derange on the other hand can be nasty, but much much less versatile and
valuable to the !Malks IMO.
Halcyan 2
"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011108044748...@mb-fo.aol.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Well I'm sorry too, because I disagree with you and will have to put you
down on this ;) Coma IMO is pretty much crap.
"Coma, even at inferior, sends the opposing vampire to torpor! And this all
for a clan that with, Aus/Dem/Obf, has no combat ability!"
Well this is the problem! They're NOT a combat clan. Why'd they need this
card? You don't want to go into close range fight with a !Malk anyway! It
does not only cost 3 blood, but you're going to get hit back for at least
one (if you're ever gonna be successful with your Coma strike) and that
means you lose 4(!) blood at the very least. Playing Coma usually means
going to torpor yourself. The difference is that opposing minion will have
blood on him still - you won't.
Derange on the other hand, is FREE and has really NASTY effects as it's
permanent. Sure you can move it around, but playing !Malks you're safe from
it, and it's sure to cause people to try blovck it if it's about to be moved
to another vampire of another Methuselah. So there you get the vampires into
fights too which can really only be to your benefit. Also it's a great vote
hoser, put it on a prince and he ha sno longer 2 votes. Not even that, he
can now no longer play 2nd Trads and 5th Trads! Plus there's the Sacrifice
angle and much much more. You just need to be creative. Derange opens up a
whole world of options, Coma certainly doesn't because of it's huge cost.
Else it would perhaps have.
Roger
"Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message news:<9sdpe9$125955$1...@ID-104455.news.dfncis.de>...
> "Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20011108044748...@mb-fo.aol.com...
> > >> But think about it, if you had to cut down the set, would you
> > >> have chosen to drop Derange...or Coma? Derange is useful once in a
> while,
> > >> coma is good in how many decks?
> > >
> > >Is this a trick question? Derange is obvious a much MUCH better and more
> > >useful card than come. Was that not your answer, too?
No, obviously as I'm not a big fan of Derange I choose coma.
> > I'm sorry but I'm gonna have to interject and support Aaron. Derange more
> > useful than Coma? (Although costing a hefty 3 blood), Coma, even at
> inferior,
> > sends the opposing vampire to torpor! And this all for a clan that with,
> > Aus/Dem/Obf, has no combat ability! No one's ever afraid of getting into
> combat
> > with normal Malks, but with even the smaller !Malks, you have to worry
> about
> > Comas. Derange on the other hand can be nasty, but much much less
> versatile and
> > valuable to the !Malks IMO.
Thanks halcyan! Anyway, I think thats the point of the dementation
discipline. It's very versatile as disciplines goes.
> Well I'm sorry too, because I disagree with you and will have to put you
> down on this ;) Coma IMO is pretty much crap.
>
> "Coma, even at inferior, sends the opposing vampire to torpor! And this all
> for a clan that with, Aus/Dem/Obf, has no combat ability!"
>
> Well this is the problem! They're NOT a combat clan. Why'd they need this
> card? You don't want to go into close range fight with a !Malk anyway! It
> does not only cost 3 blood, but you're going to get hit back for at least
> one (if you're ever gonna be successful with your Coma strike) and that
> means you lose 4(!) blood at the very least. Playing Coma usually means
> going to torpor yourself. The difference is that opposing minion will have
> blood on him still - you won't.
Combine coma with escaped mental patient. Hmm, suddenly everyone else
is in torpor. Sounds like a good plan to me. !malk still have OBF.
Think about it..sending FULL vampires to torpor is never a bad think.
Who wants to sacrifical lamb an empty guy? Diab the guy who just went
to torpor, and you are all filled back up from your coma strike. I
see sending them to topor with blood as a good thing!
> Derange on the other hand, is FREE and has really NASTY effects as it's
> permanent. Sure you can move it around, but playing !Malks you're safe from
> it, and it's sure to cause people to try blovck it if it's about to be moved
> to another vampire of another Methuselah. So there you get the vampires into
> fights too which can really only be to your benefit. Also it's a great vote
> hoser, put it on a prince and he ha sno longer 2 votes. Not even that, he
> can now no longer play 2nd Trads and 5th Trads! Plus there's the Sacrifice
> angle and much much more. You just need to be creative. Derange opens up a
> whole world of options, Coma certainly doesn't because of it's huge cost.
> Else it would perhaps have.
Too bad derange combines to make...like 2 decks. If you don't use it
at superior there are many decks that it will do nothing to effect.
If I'm playing mid to low caps without votes, inferior derange doesn't
do anything to me. Derange seems to only mix with the same clan hoser
cards: Sacrifice, clan loyalty, malkavian derangment paranoia. Other
wise it does very little. Just toss 1 derange in a deck, it does very
little.
Compare to coma, toss one in a deck, it could send them to torpor!
Does it work with votes, yes, via diab. Does it work with combat, yes
send everyone to torpor. Does it work with intercept, yes, block
their rescues. Does it work with big bleed, sure, it's called bruise
and bleed. Is it effective in a deck using dementation, but NOT using
!malkavians? Sure, unlike derange anyone with dementaion could
possible want to play it. If you aren't !malk, and you play derange
you can imagine where it's going to end up...back on you.
Aaron
[ quoted text not captured ]
The problem with Coma is when you're going to use it. I mean really - when?!?
First of all, the kinds of decks I build with !Malks involve being too sneaky to
ever get blocked myself and not usually ever blocking anyone else if I can help
it. (And I've never done it before but if I started building a deck that's
prepared to block, I'd want to use Voice of Madness whenever possible.) And
when I do get into combat for whatever reason, it's almost always because a real
combat deck hunted one of my guys down, so it also usually has something like IG
that prevent me from doing anything but hand striking or a gun deck that maneuvers
to where I can't throw a Coma at them. And finally there's the issue of actually
having three blood to spend on a strike - without spending my last blood and thus
going into torpor myself.
And even when it works, what's the gain? They're in torpor and have to spend two
blood to come out. I spent three blood and my strike getting them into torpor.
Now THERE'S a big whoop!
I'm not speaking from total ignorance here. I have an !Malk deck I'd put a couple
Coma in. With just the two or three that I had, I was never using for all these
reasons. Every player whose skills I respected would look at the deck and say,
"What are these doing here? Get rid of them!".
Derange is a neat card. It's not always useful but it often is. Which makes it
more useful than Coma by quite a bit.
Fred
Aaron wrote:
> Combine coma with escaped mental patient. Hmm, suddenly everyone else
> is in torpor. Sounds like a good plan to me.
Check your pool. You've just 2 pool and a minion action (which had to
be successful) in order to block one guy and put him into torpor -
assuming he doesn't have any neat tricks for avoiding your strike and
doing a single damage. And the guy pays 2 blood and walks right back
out again.
Putting your opponent's in torpor can be good at times. But I think
you're _way_ overestimating how valuable it is.
> Too bad derange combines to make...like 2 decks. If you don't use it
> at superior there are many decks that it will do nothing to effect.
Generally speaking, you plan on always using it at superior. Just
consider it a limitation of the card. It's still a good card.
Fred
"Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message news:<9sdpe9$125955$1...@ID-104455.news.dfncis.de>...
> Well I'm sorry too, because I disagree with you and will have to put you
> down on this ;) Coma IMO is pretty much crap.
>
> "Coma, even at inferior, sends the opposing vampire to torpor! And this all
> for a clan that with, Aus/Dem/Obf, has no combat ability!"
>
> Well this is the problem! They're NOT a combat clan. Why'd they need this
> card? You don't want to go into close range fight with a !Malk anyway! It
> does not only cost 3 blood, but you're going to get hit back for at least
> one (if you're ever gonna be successful with your Coma strike) and that
> means you lose 4(!) blood at the very least. Playing Coma usually means
> going to torpor yourself. The difference is that opposing minion will have
> blood on him still - you won't.
People say the same thing about Entombment. It is costly, but it's
rather threatening. If you are going to torpor every time you play
coma, you are doing something rather wrong.
> Derange on the other hand, is FREE and has really NASTY effects as it's
> permanent. Sure you can move it around, but playing !Malks you're safe from
> it, and it's sure to cause people to try blovck it if it's about to be moved
> to another vampire of another Methuselah. So there you get the vampires into
> fights too which can really only be to your benefit. Also it's a great vote
> hoser, put it on a prince and he ha sno longer 2 votes. Not even that, he
> can now no longer play 2nd Trads and 5th Trads!
They can't do that in torpor either, last time I checked. Coma works
on sabbat voters too.
> Plus there's the Sacrifice
> angle and much much more.
Much much more = PTO angle. The card is crap against decks that
aren't Camarilla, and furthermore aren't bloat or vote. Other than
denying Path of XYZ to ppl, the card has little effect against non
Cammies. If my !ven is now !malk with the same disciplines, it
doesn't really hurt me any. I'm still an archbishop (or whatever),
since I retained my sect. Sacrifice requires that you were playing
with older vamps than me *and have the votes*, something you can't
always count on.
If you can count on seeing a *lot* of prince decks then derange is
great. Otherwise I'd opt out.
> Roger
"Shaun McIsaac" <smci...@onesourcecorp.com> wrote in message
news:8f507d2e.01110...@posting.google.com...
> "Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message
news:<9sdpe9$125955$1...@ID-104455.news.dfncis.de>...
> > Well I'm sorry too, because I disagree with you and will have to put you
> > down on this ;) Coma IMO is pretty much crap.
> >
> > "Coma, even at inferior, sends the opposing vampire to torpor! And this
all
> > for a clan that with, Aus/Dem/Obf, has no combat ability!"
> >
> > Well this is the problem! They're NOT a combat clan. Why'd they need
this
> > card? You don't want to go into close range fight with a !Malk anyway!
It
> > does not only cost 3 blood, but you're going to get hit back for at
least
> > one (if you're ever gonna be successful with your Coma strike) and that
> > means you lose 4(!) blood at the very least. Playing Coma usually means
> > going to torpor yourself. The difference is that opposing minion will
have
> > blood on him still - you won't.
>
> People say the same thing about Entombment. It is costly, but it's
> rather threatening. If you are going to torpor every time you play
> coma, you are doing something rather wrong.
No Entombment is a BIG difference. Entombment is actually useful. Geesh I
shoudln't have to write why, but in short:
Entombment costs one less than Coma, with the path out it's two less, if you
ålay Arms of the Abyss you save yourself from the opponent's damage, that's
another blood. Now isn't it obvous that Entombment for the cost of one or
two blood is MUCH better than Coma that will cost you at least 4?? The
Lasombras also have access to more combat cards and suits well for the
purpose of bruise and bleed or just bruise, which the !Malks don't.
> > Derange on the other hand, is FREE and has really NASTY effects as it's
> > permanent. Sure you can move it around, but playing !Malks you're safe
from
> > it, and it's sure to cause people to try blovck it if it's about to be
moved
> > to another vampire of another Methuselah. So there you get the vampires
into
> > fights too which can really only be to your benefit. Also it's a great
vote
> > hoser, put it on a prince and he ha sno longer 2 votes. Not even that,
he
> > can now no longer play 2nd Trads and 5th Trads!
>
> They can't do that in torpor either, last time I checked. Coma works
> on sabbat voters too.
Well you go into combat with a vampire and a simple Acrobatics later you're
down 4 blood and he's lost one. Coma would be an option if you had access to
additional stirkes, but you don't. So now you have to play with really high
vamps who have the blood to play it (and then after one such time they can't
probably do it again) and then you risk getitng hit back hard too so you end
up with a high precious vamp in torpor. He *might* do to if he doesn't dodge
or IG, but he'll at least have blood to get out of torpor - you won't.
> > Plus there's the Sacrifice
> > angle and much much more.
>
> Much much more = PTO angle. The card is crap against decks that
> aren't Camarilla, and furthermore aren't bloat or vote.
This covers quite many decks, BUT there's more to it.
> Other than denying Path of XYZ to ppl, the card has little effect against
non
> Cammies.
You're wrong, it can have quite an impact on any clan that includes clan
cards (and almost all clans do). Assamites can't play contract/provision of
the silsila, Tzimisce can't recruit War Ghouls, !Grangrels can't play
Gangrel Conspiracy, !Nosferatu cannot recreuit Couriers, you gain less pool
for consangenous pool etc etc... And denying clans from using paths IS
really useful. Besides, the superior Derange is ALWAYS useful. The card is
free and it is at +1 stealth even. Even non-Malkavians have uses for it,
Little Tailor or Marlene could play it and then block if opponent tries to
put it back on you.
> If my !ven is now !malk with the same disciplines, it
> doesn't really hurt me any. I'm still an archbishop (or whatever),
> since I retained my sect. Sacrifice requires that you were playing
> with older vamps than me *and have the votes*, something you can't
> always count on.
>
> If you can count on seeing a *lot* of prince decks then derange is
> great. Otherwise I'd opt out.
Which still is a lot more viable than including Coma in your deck for a clan
that normally really is crap at combat and wants to avoid it at all cost,
would require you to play high cap vampires with lots of bood on them, and
could not afford to fail the strike either.
Roger
>Derange more
>useful than Coma? (Although costing a hefty 3 blood), Coma, even at inferior,
>sends the opposing vampire to torpor! And this all for a clan that with,
>Aus/Dem/Obf, has no combat ability! No one's ever afraid of getting into
>combat
>with normal Malks, but with even the smaller !Malks, you have to worry about
>Comas. Derange on the other hand can be nasty, but much much less versatile
>and
>valuable to the !Malks IMO.
Coma is really bad. It loses to IG and S:CE, never mind that it loses to dodge
and maneuvers.
Coma, at *best*, is "we'll both go to hell together" in your typical situation.
That may be annoying and all, but it's a waste of a card slot.
As for comparing it to Entombment, Entombment is cheaper, even more so with a
Path; Obt has Arms of the Abyss; Lasombra have other close range combat
options, like potence, which means they can trade under IG and a deck with them
is more likely to *want* to fight.
Coma does have one advantage over Entombment in that the inferior still does
its thing, so maybe someone will splash Dem for Coma, Kindred Spirits, and
Blessing of Chaos.
> Combine coma with escaped mental patient. Hmm, suddenly everyone else
> is in torpor.
Oh so you're going to spend an action and two pool each time you want to
send people to torpor? (and it isn't even reliable..if they dodge the EMP is
gone for no good).
> Sounds like a good plan to me. !malk still have OBF.
> Think about it..sending FULL vampires to torpor is never a bad think.
> Who wants to sacrifical lamb an empty guy?
Why not? Do you even know the card text of Sacrificial Lamb? Doesn't seem
like so.
> Diab the guy who just went
> to torpor, and you are all filled back up from your coma strike.
Wait wait wait! Are you saying you strike with Coma and then you take an
action to diablerize him witht he same vampire? That means you weren't
acting vampire when playing Coma and that you survived the strike he gave
you back, so you'd have to have a high and full vampire. That also means he
didn't dodge your strike or played IG. Now the opposing minipon must have at
least 4 blood on him for you to gain back all lost blood too AND you must
have the votepower to diablerize him! This starts to sound REALLY cornercase
to me! Now puhleeese don't tell me Derange is...
> I see sending them to topor with blood as a good thing!
Not unless you can do all the above.
> > Derange on the other hand, is FREE and has really NASTY effects as it's
> > permanent. Sure you can move it around, but playing !Malks you're safe
from
> > it, and it's sure to cause people to try blovck it if it's about to be
moved
> > to another vampire of another Methuselah. So there you get the vampires
into
> > fights too which can really only be to your benefit. Also it's a great
vote
> > hoser, put it on a prince and he ha sno longer 2 votes. Not even that,
he
> > can now no longer play 2nd Trads and 5th Trads! Plus there's the
Sacrifice
> > angle and much much more. You just need to be creative. Derange opens up
a
> > whole world of options, Coma certainly doesn't because of it's huge
cost.
> > Else it would perhaps have.
>
> Too bad derange combines to make...like 2 decks.
You're not using your imagination enough then. And how many dekcs can be
built with Coma?? Not even one!! Not any reasonable anyway. A friend of mine
put together a Dragos DEM deck with Comas but that doesn't really count. He
could have done it with Entombment too. My point is that Coma is too
expensive, which becomes invalid if you talk about Dragos of course.
> If you don't use it at superior there are many decks that it will do
nothing to effect.
At least it will be good with superior. Coma is almost NEVER good.
> If I'm playing mid to low caps without votes, inferior derange doesn't
> do anything to me. Derange seems to only mix with the same clan hoser
> cards: Sacrifice, clan loyalty, malkavian derangment paranoia. Other
> wise it does very little. Just toss 1 derange in a deck, it does very
> little.
It makes him pay a blood each untap phase and the card can't be removed from
the game iwthout burning the vampire it's on. The card is also free and at
+1 stealth. You say it does very little? With Vampiric Disease for example,
it does a whole lot. Play you Derange and Vampiric Disease (optional) and
then wait with you !Malk with a Sniper Rifle to block his inevitable hunt
action and send him to torpor. A LOT cheaper than doing it with Coma and
EMP's (Sniper Rifle incidentally costs as much as one single EMP too).
> Compare to coma, toss one in a deck, it could send them to torpor!
Ok so if you're really lucky to actually pull this off..it MIGHT justify ONE
Coma in a deck...but two, three, four??? Making use of one Coma in a few
rare cases doesn't make it useful or worth to include in decks, and it
definately doesn't allow you to build decks around it.
> Does it work with votes, yes, via diab.
!Malks rarely have vote power in Blood Hunts.
> Does it work with combat, yes send everyone to torpor.
I take it you never play against even slightly combat-oriented decks, and
that you always play with 5+ cap vampires and that they always have lots of
blood on them. If so, sure it works with combat.
>Does it work with intercept, yes, block their rescues.
If you by this mean you block and play another Coma (else blocking the
rescue will only get you in toruble in the following combat) this is really
ignorant. Not only do you assume you manage to pull off a COma to send one
into torpor, you also assume that you can block the rescue, have ANOTHER
vampire with at least 4 blood on him (to avoid to hunt next turn) and that
youwill be able to pull it all off AGAIN without going to torpor yourself!!!
Wake up from your dream please.
> Does it work with big bleed, sure, it's called bruise
> and bleed.
*LMAO* Bruise and bleed with Coma OMG. If a !Malk ever would want bruise and
bleed (and why would they??) you should go for disguised flamethrowersand
Hidden Lurkers or something.
> Is it effective in a deck using dementation, but NOT using
> !malkavians? Sure, unlike derange anyone with dementaion could
> possible want to play it. If you aren't !malk, and you play derange
> you can imagine where it's going to end up...back on you.
Nope, Little Tailor and Marlene surely could block that.
Shaun McIsaac wrote:
>
> "Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message
> news:<9sdpe9$125955$1...@ID-104455.news.dfncis.de>...> > Playing Coma usually means going to torpor yourself. The difference is
> > that opposing minion will have blood on him still - you won't.
>
> People say the same thing about Entombment. It is costly, but it's
> rather threatening. If you are going to torpor every time you play
> coma, you are doing something rather wrong.
Why are we ending this comment here? Do tell! What is the magic way
to play Coma and not wind up in torpor? Especially since the circumstances
being what they are (!Malks being sneaky and avoiding combat), the other guy
_wanted_ to be in combat with you and playing Coma as your strike is
pretty much the same as saying, "Here do with me what you will....WAIT, I'll
drain myself of three more blood so it'll be easier." What kind of combat
decks could you be playing against that can't take that advantage and put you
in torpor with one strike (usually, unless it's something like a full up
Hannibal playing the coma or something)?
(About Derange)
> If you can count on seeing a *lot* of prince decks then derange is
> great. Otherwise I'd opt out.
Myself, I like it just to make people pay to untap. And while the fact
that they can get rid of the card is in some ways a weakness, it also
can be a strength, too. If your opponents starting getting into the
game of moving the Derange card around against one another, at the very
least you're costing them all an indefinite number of minion actions as
they play tag with the card. If you're _really_ lucky, they may start
getting angry with one another and have it start a war, as you sneak
around winning the game under the radar screen. I really do enjoy
playing with this card. You can't positively count on it for anything
in particular but it has the potential for delivering table sweeps into
your hand in certain situations.
Fred
On 08 Nov 2001 18:40:25 GMT, cur...@aol.com (Curevei) wrote:
>Coma does have one advantage over Entombment in that the inferior still does
>its thing, so maybe someone will splash Dem for Coma, Kindred Spirits, and
>Blessing of Chaos.
Give Tariq, Muaziz, or Samat Dementation and play with Amaranths. See
how your local metagame reacts ;-)
-------------------------------
Ethan Burrow - Prince of Austin
saa...@yahoo.com
http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/
"Ethan Burrow" <saa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3beafedd....@news-server.austin.rr.com...
> On 08 Nov 2001 18:40:25 GMT, cur...@aol.com (Curevei) wrote:
>
> >Coma does have one advantage over Entombment in that the inferior still
does
> >its thing, so maybe someone will splash Dem for Coma, Kindred Spirits,
and
> >Blessing of Chaos.
>
> Give Tariq, Muaziz, or Samat Dementation and play with Amaranths. See
> how your local metagame reacts ;-)
s:ce shuts it down nicely. you did manage to burn lalitha though. hehe
[ quoted text not captured ]
On 8 Nov 2001 07:26:35 -0800, roans...@yahoo.com (Aaron) wrote:
>> means you lose 4(!) blood at the very least. Playing Coma usually means
>> going to torpor yourself. The difference is that opposing minion will have
>> blood on him still - you won't.>
>Combine coma with escaped mental patient. Hmm, suddenly everyone else
>is in torpor. Sounds like a good plan to me. !malk still have OBF.
Hardly. S:CE, Dodge, maneuver, prevent, take your pick: Escaped Mental
Patient is cool and all, but he just doesn't kill things all THAT well.
Of course, you can S:CE, Dodge, maneuver, and take your pick against
Coma too. "Waste 3 blood..."
>Think about it..sending FULL vampires to torpor is never a bad think.
>Who wants to sacrifical lamb an empty guy? Diab the guy who just went
Sac Lamb gives you their CAPACITY back, not their blood. As long as you
aren't trying to roast 3-caps or smaller with it, it's a beautiful OBF
option. I'd much rather spend 3 blood on a Sac Lamb than on a Coma, and
use something like Disguised Weapon/Ivory Bow to put them in torpor in
the first place. Got as much chance of succeeding as Coma; actually
more since the Bow strike is ranged.
>to torpor, and you are all filled back up from your coma strike. I
>see sending them to topor with blood as a good thing!
And you burn in the bloodhunt, since the !Malks pretty much have
fuck-all for votes aside from Korah. Wow, what a great idea.
If you don't eat them right away, you get to listen to these words: "I
rescue myself from torpor". Mmmm, wasted effort. But wait! You can
play it at superior and they won't untap... and then someone ELSE can
rescue them and make them pay. Big fat hairy deal.
>Too bad derange combines to make...like 2 decks. If you don't use it
>at superior there are many decks that it will do nothing to effect.
So you have THAT much trouble finding superior Dementation in a
!Malkavian deck? Let's see... Kite, Korah, Dolphin, Artemis, Muriel,...
>If I'm playing mid to low caps without votes, inferior derange doesn't
>do anything to me. Derange seems to only mix with the same clan hoser
>cards: Sacrifice, clan loyalty, malkavian derangment paranoia. Other
>wise it does very little. Just toss 1 derange in a deck, it does very
>little.
This is a seriously mistaken perception. One Derange at superior will
bounce around the table forever, screwing with everyone. If you play it
on a vampire with only 1 blood, the vampire is PERMANENTLY tapped until
they find a Hunting Ground or other blood gain for it.
I generally put my 2 Derange in any !Malk deck. Its effects are *huge*,
which is why everyone is trading for them like maniacs.
>Compare to coma, toss one in a deck, it could send them to torpor!
If they don't S:CE, Dodge, maneuver to long, or otherwise shrug off your
waste of 3 blood.
>Does it work with votes, yes, via diab. Does it work with combat, yes
Korah, and who? Oh, that's right, it DOESN'T actually work for
diablerie after all.
>send everyone to torpor. Does it work with intercept, yes, block
At 3 blood each, you won't be sending more than 1 guy to torpor, even if
you can manage to hit them.
>their rescues. Does it work with big bleed, sure, it's called bruise
But you haven't even got anyone in torpor yet. Why do they need to
rescue?
>and bleed. Is it effective in a deck using dementation, but NOT using
Oh, yes, I'll be SO afraid of the mean !Malks who are going to spend 3
blood and probably get torporized themselves to let me come right back
out of torpor, even if my deck for some reason has absolutely no combat
defense against ordinary strike cards.
>!malkavians? Sure, unlike derange anyone with dementaion could
>possible want to play it. If you aren't !malk, and you play derange
Yeah, that's what I want my Little Tailor to do; waste 3 blood on Coma,
instead of 1 blood on Chiropteran Marauder. At least Marlene can play
Restoration to gain... oops, she's inferior. So wait, here we go, the
ultimate Coma deck:
Marlene, the Infernalist blocks your action (Wake and superior AUS),
plays Coma, prevents your damage with (inferior) Skin of Steel.
Rockin'. 4 blood spent. Her action next turn? Inferior Restoration
for 2 blood; she can only pull this off one more time before she's
pretty much screwed. Time to go fetch the FOR skill cards, kids.
This would work better with Anatole -- built in +1 intercept, you can
pull it off *3* times before being screwed, and he can play it at
superior so you don't get to rescue yourself! Wow, that almost...
ALMOST isn't a complete waste of time. Maybe I'll build an
Anatole/Marlene deck just for giggles, before it's a complete waste of
time to pick up the last 2VP at a table. =)
--
Derek
"Agricultural barbarians? What do THEY do... rape, pillage, and plant?"
Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3BEAE05A...@netcom.com...
> Shaun McIsaac wrote:
> >
> > "Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message
> > news:<9sdpe9$125955$1...@ID-104455.news.dfncis.de>...
> > > Playing Coma usually means going to torpor yourself. The difference is
> > > that opposing minion will have blood on him still - you won't.
> >
> > People say the same thing about Entombment. It is costly, but it's
> > rather threatening. If you are going to torpor every time you play
> > coma, you are doing something rather wrong.
>
> Why are we ending this comment here? Do tell! What is the magic way
> to play Coma and not wind up in torpor? Especially since the
circumstances
> being what they are (!Malks being sneaky and avoiding combat), the other
guy
> _wanted_ to be in combat with you and playing Coma as your strike is
> pretty much the same as saying, "Here do with me what you will....WAIT,
I'll
> drain myself of three more blood so it'll be easier." What kind of combat
> decks could you be playing against that can't take that advantage and put
you
> in torpor with one strike (usually, unless it's something like a full up
> Hannibal playing the coma or something)?
Leather Jacket? !Malks don't have much combat defense otherwise, so you
might as well include a few anyway if you're expecting lots of combat.
Coma will often be usefull against combat decks because you'll be going to
torpor anyway, so you might as well take him down with you. That will make
him lose time (at least one rescue action), possibly even a vampire, and
that's something they won't be able to afford too often. If they know
they'll go to torpor when attacking you, they're more likely to wait a
couple of turns till they have the Acrobatics in hand, or go attack someone
else instead. Much like Thin Blood, it's not that the effect is that big,
but its just enough to throw a spanner in the works.
It's also great against FOR decks... :-)
Flux
Flux wrote:
>
> Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:3BEAE05A...@netcom.com...> > ...playing Coma as your strike is pretty much the same as saying, "Here> > do with me what you will....WAIT, I'll drain myself of three more blood
> > so it'll be easier." What kind of combat decks could you be playing
> > against that can't take that advantage and put you in torpor with one
> > strike (usually, unless it's something like a full up Hannibal playing> . the coma or something)?>
> Leather Jacket? !Malks don't have much combat defense otherwise, so you
> might as well include a few anyway if you're expecting lots of combat.
>
> Coma will often be usefull against combat decks because you'll be going to
> torpor anyway, so you might as well take him down with you. That will make
> him lose time (at least one rescue action), possibly even a vampire, and
> that's something they won't be able to afford too often. If they know
> they'll go to torpor when attacking you, they're more likely to wait a
> couple of turns till they have the Acrobatics in hand,
<-snort!-> Much more likely an Immortal Grapple. And it won't take any
couple of turns. If they need to cycle a few cards to wait until it comes
up, they can start in on whatever vampires you have that don't currently have
3 blood on them.
> It's also great against FOR decks... :-)
That, I'll give you. Though it's not like FOR decks were really a problem
for sneaky, demented !Malks.
Fred
or better yet,
give Dragos inferior dementation and watch the vampires fall...
especially when he strikes first with strength for one, the opposing
minion does not dodge and Dragos then changes his strike to Coma.
jds
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